beccatoria | Buffy: Riley Finn, aka spoilers for a 10 year old show... o

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Buffy: Riley Finn, aka spoilers for a 10 year old show... o_O

Okay so I watched some Buffy back in the day, but never religiously. Currently Kev is rewatching most of it and I'm catching like...some of the episodes. Probably this has pushed my total Buffy Viewing from 20% of the show (plus a broad overview of most of the plots just from geeky osmosis) to 40%.

I already knew I hated Riley Finn. I did not realise quite how much until I was forced to watch that godawful episode where he leaves. On the one hand OH THANK TPTB HE'S GONE FINALLY. On the other, I was actually quite enjoying Buffy standing up for herself and pointing out that ditching on everyone repeatedly to get drunk and have manpain because he's no longer superpowered and feeling righteous about getting suck jobs from vampires because they NEEEEED him, unlike Buffy is...the most ridiculous thing ever. Because it's a giant needy bullshit coverup for the fact he can't handle the fact his girlfriend is stronger than him and doesn't revolve around him like he's the goddamn SUN.

And THEN, having been discovered to be an alcoholic who hires vampire hookers he puts all his inadequacies on Buffy (and honestly, I don't actually like Buffy all that much, but unless I missed all the episodes where she treated Riley like shit and ignored him, she's basically mostly guilty of, OMG, daring to treat him like someone who no longer has superpowers and occasionally getting distracted by her potentially dying mother), he hands her an ultimatum giving her four hours to decide whether she's willing to accept that his alcoholic vampire hooker problem is her fault.

BUT AT LEAST BUFFY WAS PISSED AT THIS. So, I thought. Okay, show...where are you going with this...

Oh. A self-righteous speech from Xander about how it is all Buffy's fault is where we're going with this.

SCREW YOU, RILEY FINN. YOU'RE NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR ~~ROBOT CAR~~ SUPERDRUGS, NOTHING!

Bah. Humbug.

In other news, having just finished a vid (for the

twelvecolonies challenge, which is currently voting, hence delay in posting) and not being ready to start my next one (which will be non-BSG and require like...actual source-watching omg) and thus being deprived of my usual method of burying my head in the sand and ignoring everything, I instead apparently decided to install an entirely new operating system on my laptop. So I'm typing this from Ubuntu.

I...may be turning into a Linux-convert, guys. It's...worrying. Really the only potential snag will be whether I hate the vidding software, and initial explorations into Cinelerra are actually looking promising if a little intimidating... So we'll see. Expect a post on it soon. It's pretty snazzy. I've set it up with a dock like a Mac, though I'm not sure I'll keep that cus it's a bit weird. I also set up a bizarre 3d multiple desktop spinny thing that's hard to describe so maybe I'll try to find a youtube thing of it, or capture my own. It's kind of useless, but very pretty. :/

So, yeah. Linux. Apparently not as techy as we all thought. Though I bet Riley Finn couldn't work it out. The big git.

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i hate riley, too. ugh. i've also always felt that anders was kara's riley [although perhaps a tad less annoying towards the end].

Hee. I always thought Lee was Kara's Riley, where Sam was her Angel and Baltar was her Spike. And Zack was, um, that guy from "Lie To Me", except he died before he could turn into that sort of jerk.

(I may have stretched that metaphor a bit farther that I should have...)

Edited, because spelling people's names correctly is important.

Edited 2009-11-08 00:53 (UTC)

ahh, i guess for me it's anders because i don't like him whereas i'm fond of lee. i don't really like lee and kara together romantically, either, but i thought they had a strong friendship, and i enjoyed those friendshippy moments.

Yeah, I like Lee too, so I think calling him Kara's Riley is kinda harsh. He judges Kara sometimes perhaps too harshly, but...not in the same sexist asshole way that Riley does. With Lee it's...jealousy, I think that motivates him, when he's hard on Kara, but that's all tied up with their complicated sibling relationship and Adama's genuine asshattery as a father so I end up having more sympathy all around, whereas I cannot find any motivation for Riley's jerkitude whatsoever except...mainpainy bullshit. Plus again, Lee never went and blamed Kara for all his personal issues. GRR!

And I agree, Lee and Kara have a wonderful friendshippy relationship. Pseudosiblings ftw! (If only they had a less horrifying father...)

yeah, they certainly had their issues, but i like how they could always find their way back to that strong connection they had. ugh, papadama, don't get me started.

BALTAR AS SPIKE?! *spews pepsi over keyboard*

Awesome. That's priceless... XD

Well they are both British...

LEOBEN was her Spike. Otherwise I'm totally with you, though. XD

Fair point. ~~Except I like Leoben, so I am not sure I agree 100%~~.

Hee. I have this mixture of disgust and love for the both of them, so it works for me. *g*

Their relationship to me is actually an inverse of one another. I like Spike at when he was evil and grew to hate him when he was good, and I found Leoben off-putting when he was evil, and TOTALLY ADORED HIM when he was good.

Ooh, interesting. I think I feel the same way. I think it's because BSG had a clearer concept of who Leoben was, good and bad, whereas with Buffy, you had the writers who thought good!Spike was a heroic badass and the ones who thought he was a misogynist serial-killer, and so we got misogynist serial-killer as heroic badass, and it just wasn't the kind of show that could pull that off. Not that I've spent way too much time dealing with my Spike-issues, heh.

AHAHAHAA! YOU WIN.

HE KIDNAPPED HER TO TELL HER HOW MUCH HE LOVES HER. And she was all "You're crazy! And kill people! And you don't have a soul!" and he was like NO ONE ~UNDERSTANDS~ YOU LIKE I DO, BUFFY/KARA. And then they had crazy sex in a metaphorical setting.

...I cannot decide if the best use of this information is to immediately start shipping Buffy/Leoben or Kara/Spike. I think I'm leaning towards Kara/Spike. o_O

I was gonna say that, but you beat me to it. :P

It's fascinating to me that some of the fans of Buffy/Spike really hate Kara/Leoben. Leoben and Spike are both creepy, soul-less and blond! And too old for the human female they love! And the women they loved came back from the dead! Leoben and Spike are practically the same person!

*laughs, looks around nervously*

I'VE LONG THOUGHT THIS. I actually like Leoben a damn sight better than Captain Peroxide v. seasons 6-7, though.

HOORAY FOR RILEY HATE!

You know, I did wonder, when we reached season 4, if my feelings about Riley were going to change because I did think to myself, "Hmm, male-catalogue-model handsome, helicoptered in to replace "true" love in later seasons, "normal" guy...sounds like Anders..." Except I ended up really liking Anders.

So like, I can see the superficial similarities there, but I can't see them any further mainly cus Anders never treated Kara like shit and blamed her for all his personal problems. What endeared me to him, ultimately, was how generous he was with his love for her. Whereas with Riley, he may have had an abundance of love for Buffy, but it seems to be entirely expressed as enormous need and selfishness?

So while I think that Sam occupies the same narrative role as Riley, I think BSG handled it much, much better. As in, they didn't make Sam a giant sexist asshole.

*kicks Riley*

they did a far better job with anders, and i did get used to him eventually. but he never won me over and i was really glad when kara finally put an end to their marriage.

how do you feel about buffy and spike? they were kinda my buffy otp.

Well, I have to confess, I was never a huge Buffy fan (as in the character in this case - though also the show) so I was never particularly invested in any of her relationships.

I did actually really love the first season or two of Angel (after that I stopped watching), so I was never really a Buffy/Angel shipper since my introduction to Angel came later and if anything I kind of leant toward Angel/Cordelia.

And I hate Riley, as already established, so by default I kind of lean toward Buffy/Spike. Not because I particularly think it's either healthy or a world of original, but because it was at least the most interesting of the various possibilities?

Plus from what I've seen (which as I've said isn't that much and I've seen less of the later seasons), Buffy/Spike seems to be the relationship where the show was most upfront and honest about how fucked up it was?

Edited 2009-11-08 12:09 (UTC)

non-BSG

DO TELL.

All right, but you may well not like it. ;)

I am honestly planning to make a vid for the Star Wars: Clone Wars cartoon. *facepalm* *hides in shame*

Heeeeee. Animated!!! I'll be very confused but I'm sure it'll be pretty!

I am sending you what my brain produced in two hours after a seventy-hour work week. O_o. *buries head back in sand*

I always look forward to what your brain has produced, ESPECIALLY after an insane work week.

And...I at least hope it'll be pretty. I don't think the vid will have much else going for it. I don't even have a storyboard... :/

Storyboards are for pansies.

That pretty much sums up my feelings for Riley Finn. He looks like a potato and he's just as boring (though, to be fair, his appearance in the season finale of season four is freaking priceless...but he's also not playing himself). He's just a...douche.

YES! HE DOES LOOK LIKE A POTATO!

(And I agree that the season four finale was hilarious, but in many ways hilarious because he was...well, COWBOY GUY, does it get any more generic? Or the whole building the fort in the Initiative, yes, funny, but also doing nothing but suggest he's all surface with little beneath.)

Relatedly, Leonardo DiCaprio looks like a brussel sprout. Although I have no idea if he is a douche or if we can draw some kind of vegetable-appearance vs douchery relationship from this...

I'll be honest, even though your criticism of vampire-hooker episode is DEAD ON, I've always found it impossible to hate Riley. Maybe because everyone else on the planet did, and that set off my defense-of-maligned-character laser gun. For a while there, until his massive insecurity and chauvinist issues took over, it was probably the healthiest relationship she had.

...I'm just saying Angel and Spike didn't set the bar very high, okay?

Well, like I was saying to

coffeejunkii, I was honestly curious when we hit season four cus I was like...okay, I can see a lot of superficial similarities (in terms of narrative role/one-line initial character summary) between Riley and Sam so I was wondering if I would like him more this time around?

But I just could not bring myself to give a shit about him. I do agree that until his massive chauvanistic insecurities took over he probably was the healthiest relationship she had, but the problem is I still found him boring as hell, and wasn't even particularly invested in it from Buffy's side because I've never been that interested in Buffy.

And then the problem is that, well, his massive chauvanistic insecurities DID take over in massive and gross ways. I was especially (un)impressed by the way the show managed to take the fact that they'd written a completely boring character and turn that into Buffy's fault for taking him for granted...

Riley might have Angel and Spike beat for healthiest relationship at some point during said relationship, but despite the incredibly low bar they set, I think Riley still managed to limbo under it in terms of sexist ickiness at the end there.

I get your defense of maligned characters, really I do. You often use it for Great Justice (TORY!). But in this instance, I can't help it. I NEED TO MALIGN HIM! MALIGN I SAY!

Oh, malign like the wind! When you do it it's awesome. :D There's a difference between you laying out the COMPLETELY VALID reasons for his suckitude and the whole "Riley's so stupid and vanilla and boring!" from the fading Buffy/Angel and emerging Buffy/Spike fans.

The thing is, at the time I REALLY gave Joss and co. the benefit of the doubt that they weren't 100% on Riley and Xander's side, and that the implosion of Buffy/Riley was much more complex than "it's all Buffy's fault for not orbitting around his manliness like the Earth around the sun!" Like, I did feel Buffy took their relationship for granted, and I also felt Riley was too needy and self-centered. So I guess now in hindsight that whole helicopter thing was *really fucking stupid* and put everything on her, but... argh. It was a simpler time when I expected Joss Whedon not to be as dumb as his characters!

Edited 2009-11-08 02:38 (UTC)

It was a simpler time when I expected Joss Whedon not to be as dumb as his characters!

*nostalgic sigh*

Ugh, I know, and I was never even a huge Buffy fan (see above, I've still probably seen less than half the episodes) but I get what you're saying. I think if I were at a different point in my life, i.e. Younger and Less Jadeded :D - I'd agree.

But alas, the more I think about Buffy, while I genuinely appreciate that having a main female character (cus the show was unambiguously about her), and don't want to dismiss or underestimate the importance of that, the more I kind of think its feminism is overrated. :/

Oh. A self-righteous speech from Xander about how it is all Buffy's fault is where we're going with this.

Oh, goodness. Apparently something like 7 years is long enough that I don't remember this AT ALL and only vaguely recall Riley as the cutout All-American soldier boy that was just never that interesting. (ETA: Er, I think I mean that this would have been fine if there was anything suggesting I should pay more attention beyond my initial impression. Most of what I enjoyed watching him in had more to do with plot than character, and I had more or less checked out of the series by the time this particular instance of fail came along. I rely on fans and vids to tell me what else I need to know about the later seasons. :)) Possibly I'm slightly immune because a large percentage of the guys I deal with every day are exactly like him? Er, minus the superdrugs. Possibly I'm too hard on them.

Dock like a Mac?

Edited 2009-11-08 06:58 (UTC)

Eh, I either didn't see it or completely blanked it the first time around too and all I remembered was Riley the somewhat boring All-American soldier boy too, BUT APPARENTLY THERE WAS MORE. *facepalm*

Dock like a Mac?

Yup, like a horizontal, shinier, larger-iconned lower toolbar with apps on it. I'm also looking into widgets... o_O I'll try to be clearer in my big Ubuntu post.

Yup, like a horizontal, shinier, larger-iconned lower toolbar with apps on it.

*headdesk*

Duh. I even have a Mac right in front of me now! Thus continues my long war with crossed lingo. :/

Oh. A self-righteous speech from Xander about how it is all Buffy's fault is where we're going with this.

Arrgh, Yes. I was one of those people who didn't mind Riley at first, didn't get all the hate, whatever. But then he lost me with the manpain about how his girlfriend was neglecting him to look after her DYING MOTHER, and when THAT happened?! And the weird thing was that I was so sure we were supposed to hate him, and then ~~the writers~~ Xander gave that righteous speech about how it was all Buffy's fault and arrgh.

I feel like that happens a lot in TV, actually, that a main character is so obviously in the right or at least highly sympathetic in a given circumstance, and yet the other characters in the story treat them as if they're completely in the wrong. Like, the writers want to create conflict and have someone read the main character the riot act, and yet are afraid to lose audience sympathy for the heroes, so they just make everyone else look like an asshole?

But yeah, Riley sucked. He's no Sam. Sam was perfectly happy to revolve around Kara like she was the sun, which was somewhat unhealthy but made him much more interesting, and then he was a conflicted killer-robot. Win!

And the weird thing was that I was so sure we were supposed to hate him, and then ~~the writers~~ Xander gave that righteous speech about how it was all Buffy's fault and arrgh.

YES. Cus I was sitting there all pissed off and Kev was like, "No, look, Buffy's kicking his ass, I don't think we're supposed to be sympathetic - you're just burned from that drunk Admiral dude on Battleshorts."

And I was like, "Really? *hopes*"

And then there was Xander and Kev was like, "Hang on, WTF?" And I was all, "Yuuuuuup."

And now we're considering adding, "Gets manpain like Riley Finn" to the list of horrible mutations you can get if you fail certain tests in our next RPG game, along with becoming bloated, losing all your hair and other hilarious and unfortunate possibilities.

Like, the writers want to create conflict and have someone read the main character the riot act, and yet are afraid to lose audience sympathy for the heroes, so they just make everyone else look like an asshole?

YES. *cough*Adama*cough* Except with Adama I don't even think they were trying to introduce conflict they just....well I still don't understand what happened there. :/

But yeah, Riley sucked. He's no Sam. Sam was perfectly happy to revolve around Kara like she was the sun, which was somewhat unhealthy but made him much more interesting, and then he was a conflicted killer-robot. Win!

*endorses this paragraph* :D

Riley was definitely one of the things that made me wonder why people thought Buffy was this immensely feminist show. Because it highlighted for me how Joss has issues about women up the kazoo.

Yeah. I mean, as I was saying above, I don't want to underestimate or underplay the fact that shows with main female characters were pretty rare in the 90s (hell they still are) or that Buffy did have a lot of main female characters who got storylines that weren't always about boys, but at the same time...dude.

In addition to shit like Riley, Buffy (and River, and Echo) all play into a trope of sexiness - the tiny girl who can kick your ass - which is more about the fact that she's tiny and sexy and that makes the fact she can kick your ass safe and provocative rather than the fact that she can kick your ass.

It always makes me want to compare her to Xena who, okay, was never going to have such mainstream appeal because it was a hell of a lot camper and tackier, but equally I think would have struggled to do so because Xena was actually intimidating. (Which yeah, is a whole other thing guys sometimes find attractive, but it's a less mainstream thing, I think?)

And...stuff. ;)

And of course feminist issues aside, Riley and Buffy was just plain *boring*. Captain Cardboard had zero chemistry with anyone. Apart from Xander. The only Riley scenes I even half liked were those scenes he had with Xander.

And yep, Joss had a type. I always thought it was interesting how as soon as one of his female characters became more womanly, they'd be subjected to character assassination. I suppose the prime example here is what happened with Cordelia Chase.

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Buffy: Riley Finn, aka spoilers for a 10 year old show... o_O

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