beccatoria (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
beccatoria) wrote2010-06-30 07:14 pm
beccatoria) wrote2010-06-30 07:14 pm
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River Song: Totally Space-Married.
I really loved the final episode. It was big, and slightly nonsensical and very fairytale and they were all beautiful. ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
chaila43 has a much longer, much better description of all the wonderful things about it here. I really feel it says pretty much everything emotional that needs to be said about the episode.
I am left with one piece of confusion, though. And okay, I'm not seriously expecting anyone to answer this for me, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. As I understand it, the TARDIS explosion ended the universe but (due to time travel, putting the Pandorica in it, etc.) it also recreated that universe identically (minus the Doctor) at that same moment. Because Amy had to use her special crack-addled brain to remember her parents, that leads me to believe that all the other stuff eaten by the cracks didn't magically return (or why would Amy need to try and remember?) so the light from the Pandorica recreated the cracks too, it's just that they all closed at the moment of the explosion? Like, it's the cause of and end of those cracks? So okay, that all makes sense. And Rory's still alive not because he got remembered by Amy but because the Doctor never had his adventures and thus Rory never went on the adventure that got him killed. But when Amy does remember, she also brings back (it seems) all the Doctor's adventures too. So, um, why isn't Rory dead again? Or at least an Auton? Cus like...Amy can't un-crackify him since he died first and then his corpse got eaten. I guess she could work really hard and remember his corpse if she wanted... Probably I'm just overthinking it but...it bugs me.
THAT OUT OF THE WAY, LET'S MOVE ON TO MORE IMPORTANT MATTERS LIKE RIVER SONG.
I am also completely and utterly convinced that River and the Doctor are married. I know, I know, Moffat said that we should think outside the box, or something, or that she wasn't what we were all expecting her to be. And I honestly do have some concerns that he could easily overplay this and piss off the parts of the audience who are not me if he teases it too long and what could have been nicely understated might become a big let down as everyone's like, "What? Just his wife?" as if that's not really a revelation, or interesting, just because it's been dragged out for so long everyone's expecting a big twist.
But... I have a fairly large amount of trust for Moffat's ability to tell a satisfying story. And frankly, at the moment, speculation that she's not his wife seems to be motivated either by dislike of the character (where clearly I do not agree), or a belief that it's "too obvious". So essentially it's suspecting a twist simply for the sake of a twist, which is fine if the twist also delivers a better story but...I can't see how that works in this instance.
And there's the double-bind. If you drag out the revelation too long, you get too cute about it, you begin wondering what the point in dragging it out is if everyone already guessed. But equally putting in a twist just so people are wrong can go horribly badly too and leave everyone feeling cheated. They have hinted at marriage or at least an analogous romantic relationship so much and so often now that backing out of that will feel like backpedaling of the worst kind.
SO. Because I'm bored, I'm going to lay out all the reasons I think that she has to be his wife and why I really don't think that the whole final "everything changes" line actually pertains to their relationship specifically.
BECKA'S BIG ARGUMENT THAT THEY ARE TOTALLY SPACE-MARRIED
And if this doesn't convince you, I'm good for round two, but I might have to bring a baseball bat...
1. What can we verify about their relationship?
So the cynical answer is absolutely nothing, but frankly, I think there's too much care that's gone into the character and her reactions to suggest that every time she waxes lyrical about the Doctor (or declares her love for him) when he's not even in the vicinity is because she's some crazy method actor playing a long con. So I'm not going to go there and I'm gonna say that we can take at face value the fact that she and the Doctor have an incredibly close and trusting relationship. She knows his name.
She's posited as an extraordinarily important figure in the Doctor's life. So first point is, if the retcon is that she's anything other than that, I'll be disappointed, because that's promising something and then creating a twist that delivers something smaller.
2. What explanations are there for such a close relationship?
So, given that I'm working on the assumption that the promises of River's importance and closeness to the Doctor aren't empty ones, are there any ways other than marriage (or equivalent srs romantic relationship) to explain this?
I'll step right out there and say while I'm usually a powerful advocate of platonic friendships not being portrayed as "lesser" than romantic ones in terms of interpersonal importance or power, in this instance, I don't think that "best friends" can work. Basically because that's what every companion is supposed to be for the Doctor. If you make River another companion, another fellow traveler, just the one he likes best and teaches most, you retrospectively insult all the other people he traveled with and didn't teach to fly the TARDIS or tell his name. Obviously there are companions who stayed longer or were more trusted by the Doctor, but I don't think you can straight up elevate one of them to that kind of status without it making his friendships with these other people seem somewhat callous. It highlights the fact that eventually he'll leave them behind, rather than the fact he took them in the first place.
In addition, and as I'll get to later, it's fairly obvious that River is in love with the Doctor and making her "just" a companion would add to the rather skeezy tradition of having the companions fall in unrequited love with the Doctor. In addition to being skeezy, I honestly believe it would be totally out of character for River to put up with that situation. I just cannot see her being so cheerfully in love with someone who isn't going to return her affections. I don't think it's in her character to get aggressive or angry about it either, or hate the Doctor; heck she would probably stay friends with him. But...she'd be off dating androids and Nestene duplicates with swappable heads. River Song and unrequited love are two ideas that seem incompatible to me. (Err, unrequited love on her part; I imagine there are swathes of people unrequitedly in love with her!)
So, I don't think she can be a platonic friend.
Another answer would be family. This I could also handle as a reason for the trust and closeness - they could even somehow explain how the Doctor has previously been able to recognise other Time Lords but not this one - but it only works along broad lines, like trust and some sort of love and closeness. As soon as you start looking at the way they shamelessly flirt with each other it gets weeeeeird. Even without the very private declaration of (romantic) love on River's part, when the TARDIS is about to explode, if she's his mother/sister/daughter she really oughtn't be flirting about how she'll kiss him when he's older or winding Amy up about how they're probably married. (In addition, while by no means impossible, I think immediate family would make it a little harder to explain the fact that he doesn't know who she is yet and apparently they don't have any common history at any time).
And I honestly can't think of anything outside the friend/relative/wife axis that really fulfills the criteria of point 1.
3. Setting aside my personal opinion that being married is the best resolution, here are some things I honestly don't know how they could explain any other way.
In the last two episodes there have been a few moments that have gone beyond banter and into an area that, if explained as something other than them being space-married, make no sense.
Firstly, "I'm sorry, my love." SEE ICON.
I've seen speculation that she's speaking to the TARDIS. I mean, like, some serious speculation. I'm not even sure how to respond to it because it seems so surreal an idea to me. Why would she declare her love to someone else's property, no matter how sentient? Plus she's looking out at the rock and says it before she turns back to look at the TARDIS exploding. And yes, okay, sometimes people say "love" to a friend or a child, but not "my love" and certainly not with that inflection.
It's also an intriguing, surprising and very underplayed moment that the Doctor hears her say this via the satellite. That feels like a very deliberate choice in terms of dialogue and who hears it. I mean, she was saying it on loop for two thousand years.
Secondly, there's the conversation she has at the end with the Doctor about whether she's married. Most reaction I've seen on this point tends to be overshadowed by speculation about how "everything changes", which I'll get to later and which is also a shame as it overlooks the reasons that conversation is taking place.
The Doctor flat out asks her, in a very quiet, absolutely fascinated and almost flirtatious way, if she's married. The only reason I can possibly fathom that he's asking her that question is because he thinks she's probably married to him. "Are you married, River? To some random other bloke?"
River can't answer outright, because of spoilers, and because River finds life delightful and teasing the doctor delightful, and sees no reason to rush because now there's a universe to live in again. But the tone of her voice.
She's leading him on. She knows he's asking because he thinks she is probably his wife. And even though she can't answer directly, her answer is yes, her answer is always yes. "River - " "Yes." Again, I think it's not blind luck that this is the word she chooses to evade his questions. THAT R THEMATICSES!11!1!
If River has this conversation knowing that he thinks the wrong thing - knowing that they're not married - that's...a take on River I can't understand. That's the fandom myth of the River who's smug and apparently has nothing better to do with her life than chase the Doctor around in order to lie to him about who she will one day be in order to feel some power over him. I just can't buy that. She so obviously loves him - why knowingly lead him into a lie through suggestion and omission?
4. Everything changes?
Okay, so here's the final line that people seem to be going nuts over. The prevailing wisdom appears to be (and granted, I'm talking discussions IRL and on forums where I lurk more than LJ fandom which I have barely set foot in) that this heralds some change in their relationship which makes River sorrowful. Theories on this are varied, but all essentially suggest that River is going to go bad, or be bad when the Doctor first meets her or something, and sometimes include the idea that he will need to "redeem" her and set her on the right course again.
So first off, I'm not a fan of that idea just because I think it sounds a bit...faily. Like, I would watch before judging because stories can always surprise but I think it would be very easy to interpret a story like that along the lines of needing to put River back in her place and have the Doctor restored to his messianic saviour role. I'm just...not feeling that since one of the things I love best about the story is their equality. I have no issue with River doing all manner of morally dubious things but I don't want the Doctor flying in to "save" her. Similarly while I love the implication she eventually kills him, I don't want it to be some kind deal where she does it when she's young and evil and then spending the rest of her life trying to make up for it deal as has been suggested from some quarters. If nothing else, that doesn't really tally with her sombre but in many ways unapologetic treatment of the issue at the end of Flesh and Stone.
However, even setting aside personal concerns about the direction of the story, I flat out don't think it can work, if we accept point 1. - that the only verifiable thing about their relationship is that it is primarily characterised by extraordinary trust.
There are several reasons for this:
Firstly, if there is ever a point at which River and the Doctor become enemies, it cannot last very long - because if it did, River wouldn't be able to leave him notes all over the place asking him for help if she wasn't sure whether she'd get a Doctor who was willing to help her or one who felt they were enemies. "Everything changes," suggests a large scale event to me, not a rough patch.
Secondly, what changes? This is said in the same episode where she acknowledges that the Doctor doesn't really know her yet. They barely have a relationship to change. And while, - even setting aside the issue of her confidence that he'll pull her from the vacuum of space on nothing more than a "Hello Sweetie," - it's possible that they meet, aren't sure of each other, go through this hypothetical rough patch and then come to trust each other, "everything changes" seems a bit melodramatic for three encounters where he's still circling her with trepidation.
Thirdly, at the start of the Library and Byzantium episodes, River isn't sure where in his timeline the Doctor is. In fact, on both occasions, she assumes he knows who she is. When she clarifies where in his timeline he is, and that he doesn't know this, her demeanour doesn't really change except she starts hiding certain bits of information. If his discovering who she is really did herald a big change in their relationship...surely that would be reflected in her behaviour? At least to a degree? (Which, as an aside, is part of what leads me to believe that whatever Father Octavian knew about her is something that, in context will not upset the Doctor, since River seemed genuinely surprised that she got him so early on in his timeline and therefore couldn't have planned that. Again, see her comments at the end that the story has to be lived, not told).
Personally I think "everything changes," probably refers to something else she knows will happen - like maybe the Silence or...something. Something she is sad about for the Doctor. I guess we'll see, and we'll see if I'm proven wrong?
ANYWAY. THERE IS MY MANIFESTO. *takes off shipper hat*
I love River Song so much. It's weird cus usually when I fall hard for a character, I have to love the whole show to a degree. I mean there are shows I watch casually with a few awesome characters or ships in them - shows I only really watch for a character or ship (Irina Derevko springs to mind), but normally the fact that the show-love is casual keeps the character love reasonably casual too. So like, I have no burning desire to make an Irina vid but, um, there will be a TERRIBLY SINCERE RIVER VID TO DANCE MUSIC. *facepalm* Cus, like, I do like this show, but it's only when River shows up I want to...post ridiculously long essays like this one.
I AM AWESOME. AND TOTALLY EMBRACING MY INNER CRAZY SHIPPER. AT LEAST ONE HILARIOUSLY SINCERE VID TO DANCE MUSIC WILL FOLLOW. FLEE IF YOU VALUE YOUR SANITY, OR AT LEAST PUT ON A FEZ.
chaila43 has a much longer, much better description of all the wonderful things about it here. I really feel it says pretty much everything emotional that needs to be said about the episode. I am left with one piece of confusion, though. And okay, I'm not seriously expecting anyone to answer this for me, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. As I understand it, the TARDIS explosion ended the universe but (due to time travel, putting the Pandorica in it, etc.) it also recreated that universe identically (minus the Doctor) at that same moment. Because Amy had to use her special crack-addled brain to remember her parents, that leads me to believe that all the other stuff eaten by the cracks didn't magically return (or why would Amy need to try and remember?) so the light from the Pandorica recreated the cracks too, it's just that they all closed at the moment of the explosion? Like, it's the cause of and end of those cracks? So okay, that all makes sense. And Rory's still alive not because he got remembered by Amy but because the Doctor never had his adventures and thus Rory never went on the adventure that got him killed. But when Amy does remember, she also brings back (it seems) all the Doctor's adventures too. So, um, why isn't Rory dead again? Or at least an Auton? Cus like...Amy can't un-crackify him since he died first and then his corpse got eaten. I guess she could work really hard and remember his corpse if she wanted... Probably I'm just overthinking it but...it bugs me.
THAT OUT OF THE WAY, LET'S MOVE ON TO MORE IMPORTANT MATTERS LIKE RIVER SONG.
I am also completely and utterly convinced that River and the Doctor are married. I know, I know, Moffat said that we should think outside the box, or something, or that she wasn't what we were all expecting her to be. And I honestly do have some concerns that he could easily overplay this and piss off the parts of the audience who are not me if he teases it too long and what could have been nicely understated might become a big let down as everyone's like, "What? Just his wife?" as if that's not really a revelation, or interesting, just because it's been dragged out for so long everyone's expecting a big twist.
But... I have a fairly large amount of trust for Moffat's ability to tell a satisfying story. And frankly, at the moment, speculation that she's not his wife seems to be motivated either by dislike of the character (where clearly I do not agree), or a belief that it's "too obvious". So essentially it's suspecting a twist simply for the sake of a twist, which is fine if the twist also delivers a better story but...I can't see how that works in this instance.
And there's the double-bind. If you drag out the revelation too long, you get too cute about it, you begin wondering what the point in dragging it out is if everyone already guessed. But equally putting in a twist just so people are wrong can go horribly badly too and leave everyone feeling cheated. They have hinted at marriage or at least an analogous romantic relationship so much and so often now that backing out of that will feel like backpedaling of the worst kind.
SO. Because I'm bored, I'm going to lay out all the reasons I think that she has to be his wife and why I really don't think that the whole final "everything changes" line actually pertains to their relationship specifically.
BECKA'S BIG ARGUMENT THAT THEY ARE TOTALLY SPACE-MARRIED
And if this doesn't convince you, I'm good for round two, but I might have to bring a baseball bat...
1. What can we verify about their relationship?
So the cynical answer is absolutely nothing, but frankly, I think there's too much care that's gone into the character and her reactions to suggest that every time she waxes lyrical about the Doctor (or declares her love for him) when he's not even in the vicinity is because she's some crazy method actor playing a long con. So I'm not going to go there and I'm gonna say that we can take at face value the fact that she and the Doctor have an incredibly close and trusting relationship. She knows his name.
She's posited as an extraordinarily important figure in the Doctor's life. So first point is, if the retcon is that she's anything other than that, I'll be disappointed, because that's promising something and then creating a twist that delivers something smaller.
2. What explanations are there for such a close relationship?
So, given that I'm working on the assumption that the promises of River's importance and closeness to the Doctor aren't empty ones, are there any ways other than marriage (or equivalent srs romantic relationship) to explain this?
I'll step right out there and say while I'm usually a powerful advocate of platonic friendships not being portrayed as "lesser" than romantic ones in terms of interpersonal importance or power, in this instance, I don't think that "best friends" can work. Basically because that's what every companion is supposed to be for the Doctor. If you make River another companion, another fellow traveler, just the one he likes best and teaches most, you retrospectively insult all the other people he traveled with and didn't teach to fly the TARDIS or tell his name. Obviously there are companions who stayed longer or were more trusted by the Doctor, but I don't think you can straight up elevate one of them to that kind of status without it making his friendships with these other people seem somewhat callous. It highlights the fact that eventually he'll leave them behind, rather than the fact he took them in the first place.
In addition, and as I'll get to later, it's fairly obvious that River is in love with the Doctor and making her "just" a companion would add to the rather skeezy tradition of having the companions fall in unrequited love with the Doctor. In addition to being skeezy, I honestly believe it would be totally out of character for River to put up with that situation. I just cannot see her being so cheerfully in love with someone who isn't going to return her affections. I don't think it's in her character to get aggressive or angry about it either, or hate the Doctor; heck she would probably stay friends with him. But...she'd be off dating androids and Nestene duplicates with swappable heads. River Song and unrequited love are two ideas that seem incompatible to me. (Err, unrequited love on her part; I imagine there are swathes of people unrequitedly in love with her!)
So, I don't think she can be a platonic friend.
Another answer would be family. This I could also handle as a reason for the trust and closeness - they could even somehow explain how the Doctor has previously been able to recognise other Time Lords but not this one - but it only works along broad lines, like trust and some sort of love and closeness. As soon as you start looking at the way they shamelessly flirt with each other it gets weeeeeird. Even without the very private declaration of (romantic) love on River's part, when the TARDIS is about to explode, if she's his mother/sister/daughter she really oughtn't be flirting about how she'll kiss him when he's older or winding Amy up about how they're probably married. (In addition, while by no means impossible, I think immediate family would make it a little harder to explain the fact that he doesn't know who she is yet and apparently they don't have any common history at any time).
And I honestly can't think of anything outside the friend/relative/wife axis that really fulfills the criteria of point 1.
3. Setting aside my personal opinion that being married is the best resolution, here are some things I honestly don't know how they could explain any other way.
In the last two episodes there have been a few moments that have gone beyond banter and into an area that, if explained as something other than them being space-married, make no sense.
Firstly, "I'm sorry, my love." SEE ICON.
I've seen speculation that she's speaking to the TARDIS. I mean, like, some serious speculation. I'm not even sure how to respond to it because it seems so surreal an idea to me. Why would she declare her love to someone else's property, no matter how sentient? Plus she's looking out at the rock and says it before she turns back to look at the TARDIS exploding. And yes, okay, sometimes people say "love" to a friend or a child, but not "my love" and certainly not with that inflection.
It's also an intriguing, surprising and very underplayed moment that the Doctor hears her say this via the satellite. That feels like a very deliberate choice in terms of dialogue and who hears it. I mean, she was saying it on loop for two thousand years.
Secondly, there's the conversation she has at the end with the Doctor about whether she's married. Most reaction I've seen on this point tends to be overshadowed by speculation about how "everything changes", which I'll get to later and which is also a shame as it overlooks the reasons that conversation is taking place.
The Doctor flat out asks her, in a very quiet, absolutely fascinated and almost flirtatious way, if she's married. The only reason I can possibly fathom that he's asking her that question is because he thinks she's probably married to him. "Are you married, River? To some random other bloke?"
River can't answer outright, because of spoilers, and because River finds life delightful and teasing the doctor delightful, and sees no reason to rush because now there's a universe to live in again. But the tone of her voice.
She's leading him on. She knows he's asking because he thinks she is probably his wife. And even though she can't answer directly, her answer is yes, her answer is always yes. "River - " "Yes." Again, I think it's not blind luck that this is the word she chooses to evade his questions. THAT R THEMATICSES!11!1!
If River has this conversation knowing that he thinks the wrong thing - knowing that they're not married - that's...a take on River I can't understand. That's the fandom myth of the River who's smug and apparently has nothing better to do with her life than chase the Doctor around in order to lie to him about who she will one day be in order to feel some power over him. I just can't buy that. She so obviously loves him - why knowingly lead him into a lie through suggestion and omission?
4. Everything changes?
Okay, so here's the final line that people seem to be going nuts over. The prevailing wisdom appears to be (and granted, I'm talking discussions IRL and on forums where I lurk more than LJ fandom which I have barely set foot in) that this heralds some change in their relationship which makes River sorrowful. Theories on this are varied, but all essentially suggest that River is going to go bad, or be bad when the Doctor first meets her or something, and sometimes include the idea that he will need to "redeem" her and set her on the right course again.
So first off, I'm not a fan of that idea just because I think it sounds a bit...faily. Like, I would watch before judging because stories can always surprise but I think it would be very easy to interpret a story like that along the lines of needing to put River back in her place and have the Doctor restored to his messianic saviour role. I'm just...not feeling that since one of the things I love best about the story is their equality. I have no issue with River doing all manner of morally dubious things but I don't want the Doctor flying in to "save" her. Similarly while I love the implication she eventually kills him, I don't want it to be some kind deal where she does it when she's young and evil and then spending the rest of her life trying to make up for it deal as has been suggested from some quarters. If nothing else, that doesn't really tally with her sombre but in many ways unapologetic treatment of the issue at the end of Flesh and Stone.
However, even setting aside personal concerns about the direction of the story, I flat out don't think it can work, if we accept point 1. - that the only verifiable thing about their relationship is that it is primarily characterised by extraordinary trust.
There are several reasons for this:
Firstly, if there is ever a point at which River and the Doctor become enemies, it cannot last very long - because if it did, River wouldn't be able to leave him notes all over the place asking him for help if she wasn't sure whether she'd get a Doctor who was willing to help her or one who felt they were enemies. "Everything changes," suggests a large scale event to me, not a rough patch.
Secondly, what changes? This is said in the same episode where she acknowledges that the Doctor doesn't really know her yet. They barely have a relationship to change. And while, - even setting aside the issue of her confidence that he'll pull her from the vacuum of space on nothing more than a "Hello Sweetie," - it's possible that they meet, aren't sure of each other, go through this hypothetical rough patch and then come to trust each other, "everything changes" seems a bit melodramatic for three encounters where he's still circling her with trepidation.
Thirdly, at the start of the Library and Byzantium episodes, River isn't sure where in his timeline the Doctor is. In fact, on both occasions, she assumes he knows who she is. When she clarifies where in his timeline he is, and that he doesn't know this, her demeanour doesn't really change except she starts hiding certain bits of information. If his discovering who she is really did herald a big change in their relationship...surely that would be reflected in her behaviour? At least to a degree? (Which, as an aside, is part of what leads me to believe that whatever Father Octavian knew about her is something that, in context will not upset the Doctor, since River seemed genuinely surprised that she got him so early on in his timeline and therefore couldn't have planned that. Again, see her comments at the end that the story has to be lived, not told).
Personally I think "everything changes," probably refers to something else she knows will happen - like maybe the Silence or...something. Something she is sad about for the Doctor. I guess we'll see, and we'll see if I'm proven wrong?
ANYWAY. THERE IS MY MANIFESTO. *takes off shipper hat*
I love River Song so much. It's weird cus usually when I fall hard for a character, I have to love the whole show to a degree. I mean there are shows I watch casually with a few awesome characters or ships in them - shows I only really watch for a character or ship (Irina Derevko springs to mind), but normally the fact that the show-love is casual keeps the character love reasonably casual too. So like, I have no burning desire to make an Irina vid but, um, there will be a TERRIBLY SINCERE RIVER VID TO DANCE MUSIC. *facepalm* Cus, like, I do like this show, but it's only when River shows up I want to...post ridiculously long essays like this one.
I AM AWESOME. AND TOTALLY EMBRACING MY INNER CRAZY SHIPPER. AT LEAST ONE HILARIOUSLY SINCERE VID TO DANCE MUSIC WILL FOLLOW. FLEE IF YOU VALUE YOUR SANITY, OR AT LEAST PUT ON A FEZ.
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(And yes, fezzes are cool, but if my husband put one on, I would be sorely tempted to steal and explode it...)
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I stopped trying to 'figure out' stuff in most fandoms a long time ago. Mystery novels (especially the best ones) drive me crazy because I can never guess anything, and even though I'm pretty bright, I suck at chess. I just don't have that kind of logic. At some point along the line, my take became to accept everything at face value and if there was a twist, enjoy it with all the genuine shock that the author was hoping for (which I think the author/creator probably likes more than "Ha! Got you! I figured it out!" anyway).
Ergo, I'm accepting all of the Doctor/River hints with open and willing arms, a smile on my face, and no averse feelings to the possibility.
Fun write-up here. :-)
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I know what you mean about being fairly smart but totally lacking in strategic, murder-mystery like deductive reasoning. I'm the exact same way. I don't entirely take things at face value, because sometimes I do get the impression we're headed for a twist, but also I'm a big fan of the twist not necessarily being the most unexpected thing ever. You know, it's okay to hint at the twist, to give the audience the nice feeling of having worked it out, and then deliver on it so you can enjoy the moment.
I'm accepting of all the Doctor/River hints with the open and willing arms of someone whose brain has gone to complete shipper mush. Honestly, I'm completely ashamed of myself! ;)
I'm glad you enjoyed the write-up.
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I hadn't thought about Rory. Possibly because when I got to "how does this fit into River's timeline (because the Byzantium happened AFTER, but she seems to be doing this one from the same direction as the doctor, which I DON'T UNDERSTAND!)?" and my brain just gave up and settled in to crow about things like The Doctor hopping into "Flesh and Stone" to do that scene that didn't make sense at the time.
They're totally married. Which does not, of course, preclude her from having killed him to end up in the Stormcage. But whatever.
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I'm fairly sure I'm clear on River's timeline though... We seem to be going backwards for her. Which means that yes, she has the Pandorica adventure, that conversation at the end about whether or not they're married, then goes back to prison (she did seem to be there by choice since she broke out so easily), where she is eventually freed by Father Octavian and has that adventure with the Weeping Angels. Her inability to recognise the cracks in time at that point could be down to her hiding important spoilers or could be because the cracks disappeared from her memory or could simply be because she never really got a chance to look at one/find out much of what was going on during the Pandorica episode what with her spending most of her time in an exploding TARDIS?
So like, it's super confusing. But it goes: Prison --> End of the Universe --> Back To Prison --> Angels?
BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT SCENE THAT MADE NO SENSE NOW MAKING SENSE!
They're totally married. Which does not, of course, preclude her from having killed him to end up in the Stormcage. But whatever.
I'm hoping for both!
River makes me capslocky
In addition to everything else you say about why the Doctor would possibly ask River if she was married if he didn't think she might be married to him, he wouldn't be asking if he didn't fancy her (I LOVE THAT WORD), you know? He wouldn't be thinking it at all, despite her flirtiness and hints, if he couldn't see that he could love her enough to be married to her someday. It's not like, oh hey, River, do you someday trick me into marrying you? It's like, do I fall in love with you (cause I sort of FANCY YOU A BIT already)? Which is already pretty significant. It's not like he looks at companions and thinks that (let's hope not, anyway).
Also, she's dressed like a widow! River Song is not a woman who wears subdued black, without red shoes, so I think that's a significant thing. I think it's subtle stuff like that, plus the *tone* and *quiet* of that last scene, that makes me think they're married as much as the more obvious cutesy hints.
River Song + unrequited love = does not compute (except on my side, then it totally makes sense).
Also this fandom! It's huge and scary! It actually makes me a bit happier that what
I also sort of *do* have a burning desire to make an Irina Derevko vid, in addition to my burning desire to make a River Song vid. And now I'm thinking that it's kind of weird that I as a rule don't ship, yet ship Irina/Jack and River/Doctor like WHOA. Eh. *waves hands*
RIGHT THEN, I HAVE QUESTIONS. BUT NUMBER ONE IS THIS: WHAT IN THE NAME OF SANITY HAVE YOU GOT ON YOUR HEAD?
Re: River makes me capslocky
You also make a super good point about how the Doctor probably fancies her a bit already (it IS an awesome word; you yanks miss out on it: I FANCY RIVER SONG). There's a reason he didn't ask that at the end of the Angels episodes. There the question is whether he can trust her. There he's still more afraid of her - of the fact she knows his future when time should not be the boss of him - than he is intrigued. But even if he thinks they're married one day, if he hated that idea, he'd either refuse to ask and keep trying to avoid her, or he wouldn't ask in that voice. It was totally a scene that they can't take back, and if there's no payoff to it, if it turns out to be a red herring, it'll be a real narrative let down.
Plus I soooo want , "OH HEY, RIVER, DO YOU SOME DAY TRICK ME INTO MARRYING YOU?" on an icon. Because loooooollllllllzzzzzzz. But no one would get it. :(
As to the clothing (interpreting characters via wardrobe choice is my THING now, you know...) I totally agree. I mean strictly, we couldn't really see her feet but the whole tone of the outfit was different. It wasn't slinky evening wear. It was subdued and formal and far too dark for attending someone's wedding. River has probably had the most costume changes of any of the characters at this point and they're all either highly practical (space suits and fatigues and prison get up) or totally stylish and fashion-y. Except this one.
I think that
I love how much this show appears to love her, I really do.
I also sort of *do* have a burning desire to make an Irina Derevko vid,
While I don't have the attention to make one, I absolutely have a burning desire to watch one, so I APPROVE. DO IT NAO.
in addition to my burning desire to make a River Song vid.
I ALSO APPROVE.
And now I'm thinking that it's kind of weird that I as a rule don't ship, yet ship Irina/Jack and River/Doctor like WHOA. Eh. *waves hands*
THANK GOD BECAUSE THAT MEANS I HAVE SOMEONE TO DRAG DOWN WITH ME ON THIS UNDIGNIFIED ROAD. I MIGHT INSIST ON TRAVELING DOWN IT IN A FEZ. BECAUSE FEZZES ARE COOL. SAVE ME.
Re: River makes me capslocky
<3 <3 <3
I HAVE AN ICON WITH THE FEZ IN IT. I THINK I'VE BEEN DRAGGED. YOU ARE THE BALL AND CHAIN AROUND MY ANKLE. <3
Really I just wanted to use this icon again.
God, it's really all very undignified.
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But back to the subject of this post: THEY ARE SO MARRIED, OMG. I ship them quite madly, and I am not much of a shipper in the first place, so that is saying something. Very much looking forward to the inevitable dance vid, hee!!
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It's crazy, because I'm not generally much of a shipper either but when I become one it hits me bad and usually is about ENTIRELY HILARIOUSLY WEIRD PAIRINGS. <3 Oh how I love them.
I have no issue with anyone friending/defriending me at will. Please don't take it personally if I don't immediately friend back - I tend to use my flist a little differently to some - it doesn't mean I don't want you to feel welcome here or welcome to comment. :)
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I loved this post, did hurt the head a little mind you lol but then that's part of the territory with River, part of why she's such a good mystery and why we love her.
I rather hope that Moffat already knows what River is and doesn't just randomly decide it one morning, I get the feeling he does anyway plus he seems too methodical to put all this teasing into something and then just make up the payoff on a whim (looking at you RDM!). I do so hope she is his wife or at the very least lover because like you said, anything else coupled with that flirting is just a tad on the creepy side. As for "the everything changes" line, like you I can't see it being something beyond awful that makes them enemies. If it is then something else clearly has to happen after to reunite them otherwise her line in "The Forest of the Dead" about him visiting her and their night by the singing towers just doesn't work. I rather hope it has something to do with the silence and the resolution to that - be it that River is there and perhaps sees the Doctor suffer a loss or something that profoundly affects him like "Midnight".
I'm rambling now sorry. Anyway, just wanted to comment and saw my appreciation for you writing your theory down.
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Yes, Moffat has gone on record as saying he knows exactly who River is and I'm inclined to believe him (*looks at RDM!*) Of course then I have to get nervous about the fact that he also says that people should think outside the box and she isn't what we think. But as stated above, I think that there are just too many hints for anything other than space-married not to come off as a giant cop out. So I'm inclined to believe that whatever this outside-the-box-unexpected-thing is, it'll be something else to do with her while we were all obsessing over the space-married question. That said, possibly just due to a lifetime of living with the BBC and shows like Who, and the RTD era where leading on the audience with potential romanticness was a staple, I do have a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that they just won't go there and so in some ways knowing that they're definitely going to answer the question just makes me nervous.
BUT OH WELL. I TRUST IT WILL BE AWESOME.
Anyway, thanks for the comment and rambling is always welcome. I certainly do enough of it!
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Y'know, for the record. <3
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(I have no idea why people hate River, either. I think it has something to do with her having one up on Ten. Because everybody loves Ten, right? /sarcasm)
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(And yeah...Ten. I certainly didn't think there was anything at all smug or superior about him. /sarcasm.)