beccatoria (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
beccatoria) wrote2007-03-06 06:24 pm
beccatoria) wrote2007-03-06 06:24 pm
Entry tags:
BSG: Maelstrom
So this is the episode which will, ultimately, tell us if god(s) exists.
Because this is either the episode where Starbuck goes insane and commits suicide, or this is the episode where she commits suicide under a divine directive and is mystically returned as is wont to happen in religious tales.
If she never shows up again, it's the first one, if she does, the second.
(A tangent; she could, I suppose, survive through some freak combination of probabilities - i.e. there really was a raider and she really did eject. But that would fall under the being insane and committing suicide definition, because...well, if there wasn't anything divine going on here, then she went insane and at least tried to commit suicide).
I'll be up front about my belief - she's not dead. I was spoiled months ago for the possibility of her dying. What I knew was, there's some kind of crashing badness going on with her ship - you know, of deathlike preportions. But I still didn't really believe she was going to die. Though I kind of hoped she was. Partly. Sort of.
So what I'm going to do is, examine the episode from the "she went insane and killed herself," point of view, and also the "divine intervention," point of view.
She went insane and killed herself.
So, this is tragic. But also a worthy story. If I were less lazy, I'd drag up the link to the posts I made early in the season when both Starbuck and Tigh were destroying themselves. I said at the time, I wanted Tigh to crash utterly. I wanted to see the story of someone who broke themselves too much to fix. Because that's not a story that's often told, and it's a story that fits in very well with BSG's ongoing themes of nihilism, apocalypse, brutal decisions that defy morality, and so on.
I didn't get that. But fortunately, I seem to have been slightly more on the money with Starbuck. Who has taken up this mantle. It's not quite someone who broke themselves for the greater cause, more someone who was just broken. But the point is, Starbuck never got better. She got worse and worse until she snapped and went completely mad, and no one stepped in to stop it. Maybe it was no one's job to. Doesn't change the fact that in the end, the person who could have best staged an intervention was probably Leoben, and that, my friends, is fucked up.
There's something to her fear of death, I think. Though I'm not sure I'd tie it as directly with her mother's. Still, the fact that she finally found the strength to stay away and make a stand, and doing so meant sacrificing her chance to ever reconcile or understand her parent, must have been a headfuck. The idea of death as a barrier to truth or to peace might well have become rooted in there. I'd also figure that some of it must have to do with her religious terror. Because death's the point where the really bad shit might start (and no way do I buy that Kara believes she's going to get to go toheave the Elysian Fields).
After Adama's reinforcement of everything her mother said to her in "Torn" she snaps into shape again because this is something familiar. So she slides back into all her old patterns in an attempt to cover up the huge cleft New Caprica left in her already cloven psyche.
At this point, she's managed to alienate or get disowned by Adama, Lee (twice) and Sam (one and a half times) and leave herself with, effectively, no one to notice her complete and utter breakdown. Sam's not around enough and Kara will no longer let him in. Perhaps Helo? Except I think he tries, but has problems of his own, like being stationed as Mayor of Dogsville instead of with the rest of the pilots; or dealing with the fact that his half-cylon daughter has been passed between caregivers so frequently she can't sleep through the night.
So I'm really glad Kara goes mad in this episode (and she does go mad, whether or not the gods are speaking to her). Because I never thought she was anywhere near recovering from what had happened. To me, a breakdown is the logical, if not inevitable, conclusion to her journey. Which has been a life full of harrowing experiences, usually met by a profound lack of sympathy from those closest to her (and yes, frequently that's her fault for not sharing or deliberately alienating them or actually having done something horrible).
Frankly, it's a miracle more of the main characters aren't insane - and I thought it was a wonderful comment in this episode that if it were peace time, hell if it were any time other than "these-are-literally-all-the-pilots-we-have," time, they'd all be grounded. But for Kara, who was screwed even before the apocalypse, and with the specific things that have happened to her since; yeah. She was a gonner.
I said earlier I believed that her posing was something of a cover and she was genuinely scared of death. I'm still willing to believe that. It makes her desperate attempts to simultaneously make death unscary and force her mother to accept her that much more creepy and tragic.
I've seen various people comment that they're not sure if the episode works inasmuch as they felt no real sympathy for Kara's mother; no sense that Kara ever should have gone back.
I agree with that - Kara didn't need to go back. In what may be a reading counter to the writers' intentions (much like my disgust with Adama's disowning her in Torn) I would like to point out that none of what we saw actually happened.
Obvious, yes. But the point is, Kara's been desperate for her mother's approval her whole life. And look, wonder of wonders, in her oxygen-deprived Leoben-guided fantasy that's supposed to make her calm enough to plunge to her death, her mother offers her just that.
If Kara really had gone back to her mother on her deathbed, would she actually have found a scrap book with all the stuff from her childhood, and her mother accepting her? Maybe. Maybe her mother would have behaved as she always had because Kara was falling right back into that pattern too. We won't know.
What I think I know is that Kara is six years old. And she forced her six-year-old fantasy of her mother finally demonstrating love, affection and pride into the only place it would still fit - the last five weeks of her life.
So yeah. There it is. Kara went insane, released the inner deathwish she's been carrying around for a while because she thinks she deserves it, because she'll never to anything but frak up, couched it in religion (to which she is susceptible), Leoben (the person who understood that side of her best, and to whom she is susceptible), and a fantasy of parental pride and acceptance - probably the thing she wants most in the universe, twisted into the rather nonsensical conclusion that death is nothing to fear. Thus, she killed herself.
Okay. The "She's dead," part done, let's get on to the "she's alive because religion is real," part.
Firstly, I loved the oracle. Great casting choice to make her young and not the old crone we might otherwise have expected. Her repetition of Leoben's words exactly is so far-fetched for someone to decide to fake for very little gain. How would the Oracle even know Kara was coming? It was creepy and I loved it. And it supports the "religion is real" thing.
That and things like "the space between life and death." Things like Aurora, goddess of renewal and the dawn. Things like this is your destiny, the genuine, - not temporarily insane Kara, - fact that she drew that Mandala even as a child and it has something to do with the way to earth. (Yes, okay, people die before they should in stories and if she really was crazy and seeing that Mandala everywhere she could have convinced herself as part of the "it's okay for you to kill yourself," spiel). The fact that religion/scriptures/oracles has proved to be right in showing the way to earth every other time on this show. All these facts convince me it's a fake out.
Except fake out isn't the right phrase. I'd be pissed off at a fake out. But a mystical return from Starbuck won't piss me off. Even though I think it's cheap to "kill" a character to generate drama.
Why not? I guess because it's so obvious to me that she isn't dead, it feels like just one more step on her mythic journey. Casting her in the mold of an ancient, mythic hero, there's always the journey through the lands of the dead, returning changed, with secret knowledge. There's always the absolute abandonment of everything the hero has ever known, being stripped totally bare of everything, even identity, and rebuilding the hero from the ground on up. There's the point at which the hero is thrown from everything she's ever known and must go on, without companions, into danger.
So if you're reading BSG as a myth - if the mystical aspects are as important as the grounded aircraft carrier reality - then Starbuck is clearly the most important mystical figure except perhaps Roslin. And Roslin is not the young impetuous hero; Roslin is an older figure, the one who prophecies and warns and is ignored, either that or she's the leader, the one who sends the young hero into danger to prove herself.
Either way, accepting that religion is real and a part of the BSG universe, and that Starbuck is the archetypal hero, makes this part of the story as inevitable as her mental breakdown.
And yes. While I think she let her ship explode under divine directive, I also think she was completely losing her mind.
Leoben said, to know the face of god is to know madness.
I offer this: to hear her destiny from the gods, Starbuck could not be sane. To act on that impulse; to follow through - she could not be sane. An act of utter faith requires abandoning logic, which is generally accepted to be the basis of sanity.
Knowing that, I believe everything I said above about her mother's death, her fantasies of it, her choice of Leoben as a spirit guide, her sex-scene with him calling back to her captivity on New Caprica where she really started to unravel big-time, her hallucinations of her younger self, I stand by it all.
She's going mad, absolutely raving, a state she had to achieve to do something as crazy as kill herself. The Oracle was right; she did learn the wrong lesson from her mother. But that lesson wasn't that there was nothing to fear from death - that was just Starbuck's mind learning to accept its fate. The lesson her mother taught her was madness, when she broke her daughter's ability to function correctly as surely as she broke her fingers. She laid the groundwork for her civilisation-saving breakdown and suicide.
Let's see what happens next.
Final thoughts - I wasn't too fond of all the overly-obvious callbacks. They were unnecessary and I really found the "nothing but the rain" part forced. Especially since I hadn't seen Adama and Starbuck really interact since he pushed her off her chair and disowned her. It was nice and unexpectedly right to have Lee and Kara interacting in a friendly way again. I continue to like Sam more than I ever thought I would when I first met him. Roslin continues not to have enough to do. I thought perhaps the first chase with the fake-raider was a little too long. I wish there'd been more Leoben.
That's all!
Because this is either the episode where Starbuck goes insane and commits suicide, or this is the episode where she commits suicide under a divine directive and is mystically returned as is wont to happen in religious tales.
If she never shows up again, it's the first one, if she does, the second.
(A tangent; she could, I suppose, survive through some freak combination of probabilities - i.e. there really was a raider and she really did eject. But that would fall under the being insane and committing suicide definition, because...well, if there wasn't anything divine going on here, then she went insane and at least tried to commit suicide).
I'll be up front about my belief - she's not dead. I was spoiled months ago for the possibility of her dying. What I knew was, there's some kind of crashing badness going on with her ship - you know, of deathlike preportions. But I still didn't really believe she was going to die. Though I kind of hoped she was. Partly. Sort of.
So what I'm going to do is, examine the episode from the "she went insane and killed herself," point of view, and also the "divine intervention," point of view.
She went insane and killed herself.
So, this is tragic. But also a worthy story. If I were less lazy, I'd drag up the link to the posts I made early in the season when both Starbuck and Tigh were destroying themselves. I said at the time, I wanted Tigh to crash utterly. I wanted to see the story of someone who broke themselves too much to fix. Because that's not a story that's often told, and it's a story that fits in very well with BSG's ongoing themes of nihilism, apocalypse, brutal decisions that defy morality, and so on.
I didn't get that. But fortunately, I seem to have been slightly more on the money with Starbuck. Who has taken up this mantle. It's not quite someone who broke themselves for the greater cause, more someone who was just broken. But the point is, Starbuck never got better. She got worse and worse until she snapped and went completely mad, and no one stepped in to stop it. Maybe it was no one's job to. Doesn't change the fact that in the end, the person who could have best staged an intervention was probably Leoben, and that, my friends, is fucked up.
There's something to her fear of death, I think. Though I'm not sure I'd tie it as directly with her mother's. Still, the fact that she finally found the strength to stay away and make a stand, and doing so meant sacrificing her chance to ever reconcile or understand her parent, must have been a headfuck. The idea of death as a barrier to truth or to peace might well have become rooted in there. I'd also figure that some of it must have to do with her religious terror. Because death's the point where the really bad shit might start (and no way do I buy that Kara believes she's going to get to go to
After Adama's reinforcement of everything her mother said to her in "Torn" she snaps into shape again because this is something familiar. So she slides back into all her old patterns in an attempt to cover up the huge cleft New Caprica left in her already cloven psyche.
At this point, she's managed to alienate or get disowned by Adama, Lee (twice) and Sam (one and a half times) and leave herself with, effectively, no one to notice her complete and utter breakdown. Sam's not around enough and Kara will no longer let him in. Perhaps Helo? Except I think he tries, but has problems of his own, like being stationed as Mayor of Dogsville instead of with the rest of the pilots; or dealing with the fact that his half-cylon daughter has been passed between caregivers so frequently she can't sleep through the night.
So I'm really glad Kara goes mad in this episode (and she does go mad, whether or not the gods are speaking to her). Because I never thought she was anywhere near recovering from what had happened. To me, a breakdown is the logical, if not inevitable, conclusion to her journey. Which has been a life full of harrowing experiences, usually met by a profound lack of sympathy from those closest to her (and yes, frequently that's her fault for not sharing or deliberately alienating them or actually having done something horrible).
Frankly, it's a miracle more of the main characters aren't insane - and I thought it was a wonderful comment in this episode that if it were peace time, hell if it were any time other than "these-are-literally-all-the-pilots-we-have," time, they'd all be grounded. But for Kara, who was screwed even before the apocalypse, and with the specific things that have happened to her since; yeah. She was a gonner.
I said earlier I believed that her posing was something of a cover and she was genuinely scared of death. I'm still willing to believe that. It makes her desperate attempts to simultaneously make death unscary and force her mother to accept her that much more creepy and tragic.
I've seen various people comment that they're not sure if the episode works inasmuch as they felt no real sympathy for Kara's mother; no sense that Kara ever should have gone back.
I agree with that - Kara didn't need to go back. In what may be a reading counter to the writers' intentions (much like my disgust with Adama's disowning her in Torn) I would like to point out that none of what we saw actually happened.
Obvious, yes. But the point is, Kara's been desperate for her mother's approval her whole life. And look, wonder of wonders, in her oxygen-deprived Leoben-guided fantasy that's supposed to make her calm enough to plunge to her death, her mother offers her just that.
If Kara really had gone back to her mother on her deathbed, would she actually have found a scrap book with all the stuff from her childhood, and her mother accepting her? Maybe. Maybe her mother would have behaved as she always had because Kara was falling right back into that pattern too. We won't know.
What I think I know is that Kara is six years old. And she forced her six-year-old fantasy of her mother finally demonstrating love, affection and pride into the only place it would still fit - the last five weeks of her life.
So yeah. There it is. Kara went insane, released the inner deathwish she's been carrying around for a while because she thinks she deserves it, because she'll never to anything but frak up, couched it in religion (to which she is susceptible), Leoben (the person who understood that side of her best, and to whom she is susceptible), and a fantasy of parental pride and acceptance - probably the thing she wants most in the universe, twisted into the rather nonsensical conclusion that death is nothing to fear. Thus, she killed herself.
Okay. The "She's dead," part done, let's get on to the "she's alive because religion is real," part.
Firstly, I loved the oracle. Great casting choice to make her young and not the old crone we might otherwise have expected. Her repetition of Leoben's words exactly is so far-fetched for someone to decide to fake for very little gain. How would the Oracle even know Kara was coming? It was creepy and I loved it. And it supports the "religion is real" thing.
That and things like "the space between life and death." Things like Aurora, goddess of renewal and the dawn. Things like this is your destiny, the genuine, - not temporarily insane Kara, - fact that she drew that Mandala even as a child and it has something to do with the way to earth. (Yes, okay, people die before they should in stories and if she really was crazy and seeing that Mandala everywhere she could have convinced herself as part of the "it's okay for you to kill yourself," spiel). The fact that religion/scriptures/oracles has proved to be right in showing the way to earth every other time on this show. All these facts convince me it's a fake out.
Except fake out isn't the right phrase. I'd be pissed off at a fake out. But a mystical return from Starbuck won't piss me off. Even though I think it's cheap to "kill" a character to generate drama.
Why not? I guess because it's so obvious to me that she isn't dead, it feels like just one more step on her mythic journey. Casting her in the mold of an ancient, mythic hero, there's always the journey through the lands of the dead, returning changed, with secret knowledge. There's always the absolute abandonment of everything the hero has ever known, being stripped totally bare of everything, even identity, and rebuilding the hero from the ground on up. There's the point at which the hero is thrown from everything she's ever known and must go on, without companions, into danger.
So if you're reading BSG as a myth - if the mystical aspects are as important as the grounded aircraft carrier reality - then Starbuck is clearly the most important mystical figure except perhaps Roslin. And Roslin is not the young impetuous hero; Roslin is an older figure, the one who prophecies and warns and is ignored, either that or she's the leader, the one who sends the young hero into danger to prove herself.
Either way, accepting that religion is real and a part of the BSG universe, and that Starbuck is the archetypal hero, makes this part of the story as inevitable as her mental breakdown.
And yes. While I think she let her ship explode under divine directive, I also think she was completely losing her mind.
Leoben said, to know the face of god is to know madness.
I offer this: to hear her destiny from the gods, Starbuck could not be sane. To act on that impulse; to follow through - she could not be sane. An act of utter faith requires abandoning logic, which is generally accepted to be the basis of sanity.
Knowing that, I believe everything I said above about her mother's death, her fantasies of it, her choice of Leoben as a spirit guide, her sex-scene with him calling back to her captivity on New Caprica where she really started to unravel big-time, her hallucinations of her younger self, I stand by it all.
She's going mad, absolutely raving, a state she had to achieve to do something as crazy as kill herself. The Oracle was right; she did learn the wrong lesson from her mother. But that lesson wasn't that there was nothing to fear from death - that was just Starbuck's mind learning to accept its fate. The lesson her mother taught her was madness, when she broke her daughter's ability to function correctly as surely as she broke her fingers. She laid the groundwork for her civilisation-saving breakdown and suicide.
Let's see what happens next.
Final thoughts - I wasn't too fond of all the overly-obvious callbacks. They were unnecessary and I really found the "nothing but the rain" part forced. Especially since I hadn't seen Adama and Starbuck really interact since he pushed her off her chair and disowned her. It was nice and unexpectedly right to have Lee and Kara interacting in a friendly way again. I continue to like Sam more than I ever thought I would when I first met him. Roslin continues not to have enough to do. I thought perhaps the first chase with the fake-raider was a little too long. I wish there'd been more Leoben.
That's all!
no subject
The lesson her mother taught her was madness, when she broke her daughter's ability to function correctly as surely as she broke her fingers. She laid the groundwork for her civilisation-saving breakdown and suicide.
Wow. That's something I never would have thought of. And I'm not sure Ron has either. ;) But I do agree that if not for what her mother did to her Kara would not be the person she is and most likely would not be where she is right now and, yeah, playing a part in saving humanity and leading them to their new home.
no subject
I agree actually about the way the show is grounded in reality. That's not something I'd want them to drop for the sake of a mythic pseudo-reality. The triumph of the show is that the hyper-realism ground the stranger aspects of the show. So if they do go the mystical route, they need to treat it with as much grounding in reality as they treated Roslin's hallucinations of Leoben or the arc with the Arrow of Apollo.
In some ways I disagree about the predestination or higher power. I understand that that might be depressing for some; I guess it's because I'm so used to religion not being the answer and not being real that this is a genuinely intriguing possibility and one I trust RDM to handle interestingly. It's been something he's consistantly done well and something he seemed to enjoy exploring back in his DS9 days too. Plus predestination and prophecy - doesn't always work out how you think and I don't think it precludes a sense of personal agency either.
I'm not sure I'd say her destiny has been forgotten Epiphanies, though that certainly marked a decline in its focus and importance. There have been hints as to her continuing quest to find earth with her following the lion's eye nebula, etc. Though I do agree they've regretably dropped the arc of the "dying leader". I have hopes they'll get back to it thought.
And I'm not sure Ron has either. ;)
Eh, who cares about him! I though of it, and it gave me something to think about, and I've decided that that's all that matters! ;)
Responding as I read...
*nod*
Still, the fact that she finally found the strength to stay away and make a stand, and doing so meant sacrificing her chance to ever reconcile or understand her parent, must have been a headfuck.
Do you mean when she left her dying mother, vowing to never come back? I did not read that as making a stand. At least, it might have felt that way to her initially when she did it. But the fact that she ran -- and kept running...
I agree with that - Kara didn't need to go back.
She did need to go back. Think of the abusive relationships that people refuse to leave because they *know* the abuser loves them. She always went back. When she put the bugs in her mom's shoes, she went back -- even knowing what punishment would follow (and then, she felt it was worth it. why? because she got her mom's attention in the only way she knows how to get anyone's attention.) She went back when she succeeded as a pilot. She knew her mother well enough to know that mom would find flaws even in her success. But she went back.
She went back because deep down, she knew her mother loved her -- or believed that at least. And above all, she wanted her mother to accept her and show her that love and be proud of her. The fact that she kept seeing the young Kara was very important. As you said further on, she's still that six year old girl, hoping for her mother's love.
How would the Oracle even know Kara was coming? It was creepy and I loved it. And it supports the "religion is real" thing.
She also knew about D'Anna.
Also of note, is the fact that Kara establishes that it was not Leoben that she was dealing with. I liked that and am intrigued to see if there is a revelation to come from this.
The fact that religion/scriptures/oracles has proved to be right in showing the way to earth every other time on this show. All these facts convince me it's a fake out.
You mean that her 'death' is a fake out? I completely believe that. The easy assumption though is that she's a Cylon. While I have been attacking the writers for quite a while, I refuse to believe that they are cheap and stupid enough to take such an easy route. I believe she is involved some how with the Cylons in a way that even the current Cylons don't know -- but she is also involved with the people of Earth. Her Special DestinyTM is at the centre of both human and cylon destiny. Hera, Kara and the Final Five ...
Actually, now that I think about it, Hera is the creation of the Current Seven, who, as
it feels like just one more step on her mythic journey.
She's definitely one of the Heroes of a Thousand Faces. Apollo as well.
So if you're reading BSG as a myth
Absolutely. There are too many mythical elements involved, along with the religious aspects.
Leoben said, to know the face of god is to know madness.
Actually, it's a biblical statement. It's been made clear (to me) that the Cylons are all about The One God - as in the Christian God - and much of what they believe, their words and their actions has indeed come very much from the bible.
I wasn't too fond of all the overly-obvious callbacks.
Yup. I appreciate that we did get some resolution between Adama and his daughter. I liked the childish giggles as she presented him with the statue. But it was too forced. The Apollo scene played off better, but it too was too obvious.
I hope Sam doesn't get sidelined now. At least let us see his reaction. He loved her enough to want to risk everything to save her before, even knowing what she was about.
Re: Responding as I read...
Yes, I did mean her breaking the pattern of her previous behaviour, though the fact that she keeps running suggests a huge amount of fear. I don't think that fear and making a stand are mutually exclusive. Sometimes, I think, it takes massive fear to force to to a state where you're finally willing to make that stand. Perhaps I'd say that she kept running because she knew if she stopped to think she'd go back, so not giving herself the chance to think...maybe that was her subconscious pushing her towards her stand?
Either way, for the first time, she broke the pattern of behaviour deliberately and announced that as her intention. So whatever positive or negative emotions that grew out of, I'd call it a stand.
She did need to go back. Think of the abusive relationships that people refuse to leave because they *know* the abuser loves them. She always went back.
I guess I'd say it doesn't matter how much they love each other, it's an incredibly unhealthy relationship. Sometimes the healthiest thing an abused person can do for the abuser is leave until the abuser gets themselves sorted. Every time Kara went back, it might have been from the purest motivations, but she was tacitly legitimising her mother's treatment of her. She was saying, you can treat me however you want and I will return; there's no danger of loosing me.
So I think her continued returning was part of a very unhealthy pattern.
I would agree that her going back was deeply rooted in her psyche; perhaps even necessary in a cathartic way - in an experience such as this. Breaking chronic patterns of behaviour is highly distressing and likely to trigger all kinds of feelings that Kara clearly didn't handle at the time and then festered. But the point is, tragic timing re: terminal illnesses aside, Starbuck didn't need to go back to her mother at that time. In order to protect herself and her own heatlh, she needed to remove herself from that situation until her mother was willing to make an effort and approach her daughter with the respect she deserved as a human being.
The fact that she kept seeing the young Kara was very important. As you said further on, she's still that six year old girl, hoping for her mother's love.
And the fact that she never got that is tragic. But she's not going to get it by hoping. I saw the girl as a sign that she was still very much reacting as that child - from within the pattern of abuse - not from a position of rational understanding. Understanding that perhaps her mother was too ill to ever really offer her what she wanted.
Also of note, is the fact that Kara establishes that it was not Leoben that she was dealing with. I liked that and am intrigued to see if there is a revelation to come from this.
Aaah! Cool! Maybe he's Not!Leoben in the same way that Gaius' Head!Six is not Caprica!Six but an "angel of God"?
Actually, it's a biblical statement. It's been made clear (to me) that the Cylons are all about The One God - as in the Christian God - and much of what they believe, their words and their actions has indeed come very much from the bible.
Yeah, I've always read the Cylon religion as analogous to Christianity; I've never really understood the assumed parallel with current situation with them cast as the Muslims. I mean, yes, they're religious fundamentalists and they're on a crusade; but their actual religion is much more similar to Christianity. The Colonials' religion, while not close to Islam, is the one that has shifted to sanction terrorism and suicide bombing. Not that I think either is supposed to be an exact allegory; confusion the boundries is always the most interesting option. Religion is one topic I think BSG handles well pretty consistantly.
I hope Sam doesn't get sidelined now. At least let us see his reaction. He loved her enough to want to risk everything to save her before, even knowing what she was about.
Totally.
Re: Responding as I read...
Indeed, but I think there was more than just fear in her running away. I read her initial "stand" as a slap. Her usual defiance. But the running... that was all fear and hopelessness and loss and ... so many things. What kept her away though? Was it defiance? Making her point? Seems that the episode was trying to tell us that it was a fear of death that kept her away. Which leads me to question that a bit. How often had she dealt with death to be so afraid of it? (How did Zach's death affect her?) I'd argue more, thinking about it, that her fear was losing someone whom she wanted so much to love her. And this is reflected in everything she does in her future. She's afraid of the people she wants to care about shoving her away so what does she do? She does what she does best: she shoves first.
So I think her continued returning was part of a very unhealthy pattern.
Absolutely. It reminds me of my niece (my brother adopted her when he married his now ex, and now has custody of her and her two brothers) who knows very much that her mother does not love her. It breaks my heart to even type that. But she has said it. She knows it. And yet, every chance she gets, no matter how horribly her mother treats her and how clear her mother makes it that there is nothing there, my niece still keeps making these efforts to be with her, deep down hoping that that will change. And i fear that my niece will never truly be 'whole' until she has that reconcilliation.
Starbuck didn't need to go back to her mother at that time. In order to protect herself and her own heatlh, she needed to remove herself from that situation until her mother was willing to make an effort and approach her daughter with the respect she deserved as a human being.
To you and I, we know she didn't need to go back. But I believe she felt she did. That she needed to prove to her mom that she's good for something and she wanted to her mom to ackowledge that -- even though she expected the reaction she got.
When she found out about the cancer, Kara again tried to reach out, despite only *just* being put down by her mother. She was shoved away then too, at the time when she thought her mom would want her most. That's when she lashed out.
I saw the girl as a sign that she was still very much reacting as that child - from within the pattern of abuse - not from a position of rational understanding.
Kara is still very much a child seeking the love of a parent. Perhaps the awkward Adama scene was meant to show us that, considering the way she was acting.
Caprica!Six but an "angel of God"?
Oho!!
The Colonials' religion, while not close to Islam, is the one that has shifted to sanction terrorism and suicide bombing.
O.o the Cylons have been compared to the Muslims in their religious fundamentalism? If one wants to chat about religious fundamentalism, start with the Christian/Catholic religions lol. I thought it was pretty clear that the Cylons were C/C while the HUmans, well, their religion is kind of all over the place and they don't quite understand it. They seem to be more primative in their beliefs, trusting in symbols and texts and prophets. I loved when Athena guides them to the something or other, noting that the Cylons know more about the Human religion than they do.
Religion is one topic I think BSG handles well pretty consistantly.
Agreed. And interestingly, it's not done in a way that makes those uncomfortable with religion, well, uncomfortable.
Re: Responding as I read...
It's interesting to hear to say that; someone very close to me had an abusive upbringing and while he's very fortunately not in the position of knowing that his parents don't love him, he is currently in the middle of trying to work out how to deal with the fact that his abusive parent will never, ever agree that what happened was wrong, and how to deal with the fact that the other failed to protect him. I very much hear you that what the person needs is reconciliation and validation of what happened. And from this vantage point (i.e. stuck in the middle of trying to work through it; being this guy's sole support network, effectively) it's kind of impossible to see how it can end when that reconciliation and validation isn't realistically within reach.
I suppose it's good to know that you have a similar opinion - I do wonder sometimes how much my vicarious experience in this area means my opinions differ from others' and if they're...well, detached from reality or something.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that Kara's need for her mother's acceptance is born out of her continuing screwed-upness, understandable and hardwired into us as that is. I think the episode strayed perilously close to saying that's what would have happened if she'd gone back, and that it would somehow have permanently fixed Kara or that it would have lessened the effects of her abuse; made it okay because they were close at the end? My reading of the scene was that it was a complete fantasy - a story Kara was telling herself to feel better - not a way of actually facing up to her issues. And, you know, since she was about to die - yay for her. I'm glad she found a way to make peace with her subconscious, even if it was based in fiction.
the Cylons have been compared to the Muslims in their religious fundamentalism? If one wants to chat about religious fundamentalism, start with the Christian/Catholic religions lol.
Aaah, the crusades. Good times. Good times...
I thought it was pretty clear that the Cylons were C/C while the HUmans, well, their religion is kind of all over the place and they don't quite understand it.
Yeah, I thought that too, but I'm sure I have seen comparisons as the opposite. I think a lot of them stemmed from the episode Flesh & Bone where Kara tortures Leoben as a prisoner - so there were obvious parallels there with Guantanamo Bay, etc. and that specific situation did cast Leoben as a muslim. Which I why I loved it - confusing an issue is always better than simply reversing it if you want good discussion on it, I feel.
That said, since the suicide bombings on New Caprica I think it's fairly clear the intent is confusion rather than direct parallels. It's not an opinion I've seen widely in a long time, actually. I should stop being such an old-timer!
Also, I feel the humans' religion is very gnostic.
I loved when Athena guides them to the something or other, noting that the Cylons know more about the Human religion than they do.
Aaah, yeah. Great moment!
Re: Responding as I read...
Yup that's how I read it.
Kara and her many parents.
1. Lee. Back then, I was all "Geez Lee grow some balls!" but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and see more and more that he is a lot like Kara in his need for love from his parent. Adama seems to be a loving father, but we know his love is not entirely unconditional. I don't know anything about their family history, but there's an obvious rift there that Adama seems to keep trying to cross, but then pushes Lee away whenever Lee dares defy him -- even though Lee is quite often correct. The latest episode and the one following has a big confrontation and divide between the two. Could this be the final blow between them? *cue ominous music*
2. The way Cain was handled bugged me and still does. I understand that her methods were iffy (read: ok bitch stop shooting people!) when it came to abandoning the civilians and shooting people who disobeyed, but Kara's eugoogoly was so very true. In a time of war, it's what needed to be done. The fact that she did not give the order to terminate Adama afterall makes me believe that things could have worked out between them all. That she *could* have compromised on some level and come to see that survival was also about protecting the civilians, not abandoning them.
However, when it comes to dealing with the Cylons directly, that would have been a huge issue. She would never have allowed New Caprica to happen (as in, she would never have permitted them to colonize, believing rightly that the Cylons would return, but also because she would lose her power.) Athena certainly wouldn't have existed anymore.
So I suppose, in the end, she did need to be removed from command. She did not accept the political (and certainly not the compassionate) side of dealing with an enemy (much less her own people). Even one that destroyed so much. At the end of every war, it is the politicians and the kinder hearts who meet to sign the peace treaties. Cain would never have allowed any such thing. I'm not saying the Cylons wouldn't continue to try to pull off a New Caprica. I'm saying that Cain would never ever possibly consider them as anything more than machines to be destroyed, while Team BSG has come to appreciate them as more -- which is actually a far wiser course of action in war and peace: Know Thine Enemy.
Of course, I spent much of all three episodes pointing at Rosama (yes, I did it, I have Couple!named them. Special place in hell for me!) and yelling "Hypocrites!"
3. Now, more to the point ... Kara obviously had a lot of respect for Cain. And when she led the attack, she was the Kara that I could really like. Strong, mature, confident and determined. She would have done well under Cain's command. Why? Because Cain offered her both the harsh discipline she understood and needed, but the pride, responsibility and acceptance she craved. When Cain looked at her and said "I am very proud of you," it meant so much more to me now that I've seen Maelstrom.
Would she have shot her? I actually believe she would have. Not because she was ordered to by Adama (because I don't think she ultimately understood why it was necessary), but because of Cain's own words. It would have been dishonourable to Cain not to follow through.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Back then, I was all "Geez Lee grow some balls!" he is a lot like Kara in his need for love from his parent.
I agree with you about his need for parental approval. I think what he really needs is for his father to see the man he is and not the man he wishes he were. It's why I love his relationship with Roslin so much - she does see him as him and not as anyone's son or brother. But a lot of this is based on his portrayal from the mini series through to the Ressurection Ship arc, which I don't think you've seen. I'd really recommend it - the character has balls aplenty in those episodes. And it makes his disappointment and shock at Roslin's a) confiding in his father and b) disappointment at her choice (he never got the full reasoning behind it even) even more poignant and sad.
The way Cain was handled bugged me and still does. but Kara's eugoogoly was so very true.
I found her character much more interesting and nuanced the second time I watched that series of episodes, oddly enough. Maybe because the shock value civilian killings (which the network insisted be added, I believe - they were worried she wasn't evil enough to assassinate) and my opinion that it was cheap, had faded and I was expecting it. I think Kara's eugoogoly (awesome! Zoolander!) was meant to be true. Though it always bothered me that Adama sent her to assassinate this person without ever telling her the motivation behind it. I mean, Kara never knew (as far as I can tell) that Cain had civilians killed and abandoned. Which was basically the thing that pushed Roslin over the edge.
However, when it comes to dealing with the Cylons directly, that would have been a huge issue. She would never have allowed New Caprica to happen
True, but that gets to the interesting part that the only way she could have done that was to decimiate the democratic civilian system. As you note, she would have had to surrender power to civilian leadership - and her story arc is all about what happens when you have military dictatorships.
I appreciate and agree with your points. That's the thing - they would have been safer. And while it might be wiser, or more compassionate to know your enemy, it's certainly not short-term safer.
It's one of the reasons it's so sad her arc was kind of ham-handed. It's a key question in the show - deliberately attempting to discuss a key question in current western life - how much danger will you accept for democracy and freedom; how many of your rights will you sacrifice so ensure your immediate safety? If you sacrifice too many, does it swing around and simply make it more dangerous for you? Aaah, politics.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
This is a very interesting issue for me. I'm now more than happy to point at Adama at least and yell hypocrite. I've always been reticent to label Roslin like that simply because she's so aware of herself and so willing to accept consequences. I've always thought true hypocrisy involved a belief that what you were doing was different from that other guy's identical action. Maybe Roslin just acknowledges and owns her hypocrisy better.
Point is, though, these three episodes are really the first where Rosama (oh god, special place in hell, here I come too...) are united as a single front. Before that Roslin was mostly hacking off Adama by splitting the fleet, stealing his favourite child for crazy missions and his non-favourite one through acts of mutiny, and declaring herself to be a prophet. He was totally mad with her until he decided to "bring the family back together" (yeah, that family he later decides is a bad idea) and is all like, "I totally forgive you Laura," and she's like, "I totally didn't ask for your forgiveness Bill." The point is, prior to this, Roslin had FAR more chemistry and flirtation going on with Lee. Yes. Lee.
That and Roslin's absolute commitment to protecting the civilians and the species at all costs saved her from the hypocrisy in my books a little. That and the fact it was the first time I'd seen her and Adama acting like that. If it were my first encounter with them, I'd probably see them differently. Or if my BSG experience were post this-arc and "Rosama" was, to me, the established norm, not the variable.
Kara that I could really like. Strong, mature, confident and determined. She would have done well under Cain's command.
I agree.
but because of Cain's own words. It would have been dishonourable to Cain not to follow through.
I loved that speech and even thought, at the time, she had an inkling of what was going to happen to her. But while I thought Cain might have, deep in her mind, understood the necessity of her own death and was secretly, on some level, okaying Kara to kill her, I never quite put it together as dishonouring her if she failed to follow through. Awesome.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
No you're right. *Runs off to review the definition of hypocrite to make sure I'm not just talking shit*
Adama is an utter hypocrite. Moreover, I don't think he knows what he believes (anymore). But certainly, all he condemned Cain for, he has done since in so many ways.
Meanwhile Roslin. I know she believed the spiritual side before, but now I'm not quite so sure. I think she's grown to be far more pragmatic and Cain-like. WHen she refers to the Gods, I can't help but wonder if it is just a word to her now. She herself has the power to give and take life now. TO lead her people without scripture. To destroy the Cylons in a heartbeat. Why would she need Gods? Not that I'm saying she has a god complex, but I think she believes a lot less in the written words as she used to.
Is she a hypocrite? Only on a political level, I think, as politicians, well, have to be. She can't be any less when she stands at the podium stressing that terrorism will not force a change of laws, meanwhile they were torturing Gaius last week.
The point is, prior to this, Roslin had FAR more chemistry and flirtation going on with Lee. Yes. Lee.
They also think alike. It was he who raised the idea of Cylon genocide and she was right on it. Adama, again displaying his hyporcisy, but hiding behind her skirts, did not like the idea at all.
As far as chemistry with Bill goes, I keep joking about him being her bitch. But that's totally it. And she KNOWS it. And she LOVES it. She has the commander of the fleet in the palm of her hand. Of course she had to destroy Cain. She couldn't have controlled Cain. Lee? Dangerous because he thinks like her but also has opinions of his own.... He would be an equal. Not someone to control...
I loved that speech and even thought, at the time, she had an inkling of what was going to happen to her. But while I thought Cain might have, deep in her mind, understood the necessity of her own death and was secretly, on some level, okaying Kara to kill her, I never quite put it together as dishonouring her if she failed to follow through. Awesome.
That is assuming she managed to pull out her gun in the first place. If she couldnt' do that, then she would have been living with the guilt of not doing it at all and letting Cain down -- of flinching, as she put it in her eulogy (which I think would have hurt her more than the guilt of disobeying Adama -- he's already let her down with lies). If she pulled the gun though, she would have had to do it. If she didn't, Cain would have lost all respect for her and eventually terminated her.
The speech from Cain was beautiful. It along with the other foreshadowing (like Tigh's comment to the other XO: "The last thing we want is colonials shooting at each other") came off as slightly over the top, but Michelle Forbes was powerful enough in the role to deliver it well and lessen the cheese factor and heighten the importance of it.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Actually (and again, I'm not certain how much of the earlier seasons you've seen) I think her use of religion was always calculated and involved a great deal of misgivings and self-doubt in the beginning. She came to believe that the scriptures were real in a way - like believing the bible is based on historical fact. But I'm not sure she was ever truly one of the faithful. She was shocked and uncomfortable when her priest suggested she was the dying leader from the scrolls of Pythia. When she splits the fleet from Adama, she uses her position as a prophet very mercenarily (is that a word?!) There's a wonderful scene where the prisoners on the prison ship are kneeling before her wanting her to bless them and she won't because it's not right until her priest tells her she has to - because she's put herself in that position and she's choosing to capitalise on it; and she does.
Michelle Forbes was powerful enough in the role to deliver it well and lessen the cheese factor and heighten the importance of it.
I completely agree.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
I came in when she was just getting involved with the churchy-types. I read the blessing scene as modesty. Being overwhelmed by the role. I thought her own beliefs, which probably weren't *that* strong to start, coupled with the illness started to improve her faith. But now that she's well, cured by science and having such command over their fates, she's not necessarily skeptical of the gods, but more likely to act on her very human need for the species to the survive as opposed to 'the will of the gods.' Now I'm pretty sure any religious blessings she'd give would be totally for show because she also recognizes the power of those people .. as voters! :D
Re: Kara and her many parents.
M'Lady you're the one with the awesome reviews and thoughts that make me wanna take notes everytime I watch an episode. It's like that one super awesome university lecture that you totally wanted to pay attention to.
I'd really recommend it - the character has balls aplenty in those episodes.
Yes yes I know. Where do you download your episodes from I should get to watching on the computer.
(awesome! Zoolander!)
Funerals will never be the same.
(which the network insisted be added, I believe - they were worried she wasn't evil enough to assassinate)
O.o Well they were right! I am shocked that the networks were the ones to make this call. Without the civilian deaths, she most certainly was NOT worthy of assassination, but she was totally within her rights to terminate Adama's command. Well, not to kill him, but to remove him. Because frankly, he was all "You stole my players and I want them back and if you don't give 'em back, you don't get to play with my baseball anymore!" *runs off baseball diamond to sulk*
True, but that gets to the interesting part that the only way she could have done that was to decimiate the democratic civilian system. As you note, she would have had to surrender power to civilian leadership - and her story arc is all about what happens when you have military dictatorships.
And there is the incredible reality comparison: Pakistan had a military coup and the UN, particularly the US demanded that the military leader remove himself from presidency (they didn't seem to disapprove of the coup itself). Only, he never left. As far as I know, he's still there and is accepted.
REmove the crazy assassinating/abandoning civilians part, and I truly see nothing wrong with Cain (crazy? no not at all), save that she would never have shown compassion to the Cylons in any form. Not even one who swears her allegiance. I don't think she would have relinquishes military command re: New Caprica without confirmation that the Cylons were destroyed, but I'm not sure she would have done worse than Gaius. And more importantly, they would have butted heads, but I bet you she would have gotten along with Roslin. She respected people who got what they wanted. Roslin was just coming at it from a different angle (civilian). And now, we clearly see how alike their thinking is.
Meanwhile Adama? He's really not that wonderful a leader. But I still love him and await his redemption.
In the original series, my brother told me that the conflict between the two was that Cain wanted to attack a massive Cylon strong hold, which was basically suicidal, but it could have gone better with Galactica along side. Adama wouldn't risk the civilians by risking Galactica. Cain went alone and Pegasus was destroyed.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Aaah! *blushes and is shy* ;) I'm really glad you enjoy reading my crazy drivel though :)
Yes yes I know. Where do you download your episodes from I should get to watching on the computer.
Nowhere special. Usually www.demonoid.com (though you have to be a member) or I just use www.isohunt.com
REmove the crazy assassinating/abandoning civilians part, and I truly see nothing wrong with Cain (crazy? no not at all), save that she would never have shown compassion to the Cylons in any form. Not even one who swears her allegiance.
Yes, and I think that's the point. Although I also think that she would have dismantled the civilian fleet first chance she got, and taken out a bunch of cylons along with her. But the human race would have died, abandoned and defenseless in the depths of space waiting for the cylons to come kill or capture them. She was a good military leader, but I think an excellent example of a poor overall leader in terms of the health of the species. Still, your point about the similarities between her and Roslin are well-taken and fascinating... *thinks about this some more*
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Anyway, we first noticed that, when Riddick escaped, *everyone* was ready to take up arms to *kill* him. Not simply apprehend him. Of particular note was the priest, supposedly a person of peace, who (and I think this was only in the DC), made a comment about "we all must do our part" as he took hold of the weapon...
In comparison, the movie kept trying to convince us that Riddick was a cold hearted killer, which he was, but we did not believe he was merely a serial killer who enjoyed death. We believed he killed in order to survive. The further movies kind of confirmed this.
This thought was at the base of our reasoning as to why he went back with Fry to rescue Jack and Imam. We don't think he really cared about those two. But he did care about Fry in that he respected her will to live; to survive. He initially did not kill her when he learned that she'd been willing to sacrifice the passengers to save herself and the ship.
I've summoned Simon to add more to this, but my thought on Roslin and Cain somehow being able to compromise somewhere along the way, made me think of this. Both, as we know, valued survival, but each has a different idea of what that means.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Re: Kara and her many parents.
All of the above are willing to compromise their morality or out outright amorally in order to achieve their goals. In the case of Pitch Black the primary goal for which the characters are willing to become amoral is personal survival, mitigated by Fry's slightly more moral stance that if they can save the rest, they should.
In the case of BSG, Roslin is focused on the survival of the human race and will do anything to ensure that goal. Cain is focused on hurting the Cylon and will do anything to ensure that goal. The reason I would classify Roslin as more moral in this instance is that while destroying the enemy is just another (and ultimately more effective) way of protecting the species, Cain had no interest in that outcome and ultimately wouldn't have succeeded because, well, she had one Battlestar and that's it. So, reducing the situation down to survival as the ultimate baseline, Roslin was behaving more morally than Cain. Which is not to say either is inherently better than the other; it just shows that in this instance, Roslin was taking the long view.
An interesting comparison would be Roslin's very amoral theft of the election in aid of her very moral goal of ensuring humanity stayed safe from the Cylon. Or the fact that Cain probably would have kept the fleet safer in some ways (if she hadn't ditched the civilians) even though their safety would have been secondary to the amount of damage she could inflict, in her mind.
Aaah! Moral and ethical dilemmas! :)
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Anyway, at the simple comparison, it works, but in the grander scheme of things, Riddick showed more compasion than Cain did and was possibly capable of. Cain would not have allowed Fry to convince her to go back for people who were most likely dead and were clearly a burden anyway. In the subsequent movies, Riddick certainly showed concern over Jack/Keira and her welfare.
Hmmm...actually... in Chronicles, he left Jack because being with him was too dangerous. Certainly the same argument would hold for Cain. A military fleet is severely handicapped if it always has to protect the civilians towing along. Riddick didn't exactly leave Jack helpless though, the way Cain did (supposedly) with the stripped ships.
Roslin .. a moral person who understands and accepts the burden of immoral decisions to ensure the survival of the species?
Cain ... a military person to the letter, determined to exact vengeance upon the Cylons. Does she consider this survival of the species at all? Or is she only about hurting the enemy?
Adama .. bag of donuts.
Overall, I'd really have loved to see the scene where Lee figures out the genocide plan played with Cain and Roslin present. Can you imagine the look on their faces?
Re: Kara and her many parents.
Forgot to add:
I also noted the immaturity in the way Adama handled every situation in this episode, including the order to Kara to "shoot her in the head," vs Cain's "terminate Adama's command, starting with Adama." Semantics, I know, but ... it was just glaring. And yes, it was certainly inappropriate for Adama to give such an order, knowing what risk it presented to Kara, without giving her any details. She's 'just a soldier' and she's to follow orders, but Adama had established that there was more than that and owed her more than that. I'm glad that her eugoogoly was also a dig at Adama for this.
Intriguing! I'm just reading up on the original Cain and it turns out Adama was his superior and relieved him of duty for insubordination. Hmmmm... I think I'm going to have to spend some serious time studying the original series. I'm intrigued to see how and where the new pull from the original.
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She's going mad, absolutely raving, a state she had to achieve to do something as crazy as kill herself. The Oracle was right; she did learn the wrong lesson from her mother. But that lesson wasn't that there was nothing to fear from death - that was just Starbuck's mind learning to accept its fate. The lesson her mother taught her was madness, when she broke her daughter's ability to function correctly as surely as she broke her fingers. She laid the groundwork for her civilization-saving breakdown and suicide.
I keep wanting to add more, but I'm still feeling a little too sad/hopeless.
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