BSG: Crossroads II

[beccatoria]

I’ve been putting off writing this for a while and I can’t really explain why. Perhaps the episode needed time to settle in my mind. It left me with a strange sense that this should be the last episode, unresolved as it is. Also, this is monster long, even for me. Use of cut-tags to skip to more interesting sections is encouraged.


I think I’m experiencing shark-jumping nerves. I know, I know, a lot of people were skeptical about the year jump forwards and that worked out. But I was never worried about that. The jump forwards changed a lot of superficial things; the location in time and place, some of the ways the characters interacted. But even the most vaunted change – the estrangement between Kara and Lee, wasn’t really so much of a huge change. For starters the two of them weren’t even in the same area of space for most of the plotline and the issue was then resolved, secondly them fighting is nothing we haven’t seen before, and thirdly, the whole thing was a ploy to continue the friendship and the friction between them – the whole thing ultimately reinforced one of the key relationships in the show. So honestly I found the jump exciting and clever but ultimately quite a safe choice. A good way to introduce real change without risking the base mechanics.

But this ending…I worry. Revealing so many people to be Cylon, showing us Florida (though that less so; who says when we’ll reach Earth), using contemporary Earth music and so locking into a specific timeline, bringing back Starbuck. This is incredible, incredible stuff to throw out, but also troubling as it would be so easy to fail to capitalize on this, to make it worth it. Much easier to screw this up, I think, than a jump forward in time.

So I’m unusually worried – I usually have a lot more faith in the writers than this.

Having said that, I also really, really liked it. The end montage with the slowly rising rock music was creepy and surprisingly powerful. Aside from the problematicness of the song being an Earth song, it was a good way to introduce the Cylonness of the Final Five Four. It was effective and atmospheric, and while I’m suspicious of the Chief’s proclamation because he always half wanted to believe he was a Cylon, I do think that they’re four of the final five.

I suppose what I feel is that this is an awesome episode, but that it’ll be very easy to fail to live up to its potential. Building a mystery if easy; resolving it satisfactorily is hard. Perhaps I feel this should be the last episode (not that I want it to be, that’s just my emotional reaction) because it feels like a Donnie Darko ending. Perhaps an Angel Season Five ending. And ending that is really the beginning of a whole new mystery. That moment where you think you’re about to walk through one last door; discover one last mystery, understand your universe, and instead you find you’ve been exploring one room in a galaxy-sized mansion.

It’s the end of Men in Black where you pull out of Earth, out of the Galaxy, and find it trapped in a marble, one of many, being used by an alien playing a game.

An ending that confuses you – that takes all the threads you’ve been following and explodes them into something new and strange, but on closer examination tells you everything you need to know about the resolution of the story. Or at least gives you some compelling, forceful fact that outline the trajectory of the future on second glance.


For instance, if this were the finale, here are some of the things I’d take as “facts” and “resolutions”.

Starbuck’s return: gods exist. The divine in this show is absolutely real.

Following on from above, Roslin is a prophet and will die before they reach Earth. Further, they will reach Earth.

The final five are intimately linked to Earth. Whether that’s because (as nightxade hypothesizes) they were created independently as the humans on Earth also developed humanoid robotic technology (an idea which fascinates me though I’m not sure I buy), or because they were created when “all of this happened before” during the first exodus from Earth and have been around since that very ancient time. I really like this second hypothesis as it explains why the other Cylon are vaguely aware of them (they seem to know stuff about the Colonials’ religion and history that they don’t) but can’t recognize them/are in awe of them/fear them. It also explains how Tigh could have such a long history without meaning that the Cylon developed humanoid models stupidly fast.

The fact that the final five don’t seem to be in communication with the original seven is further proof that they are very different “types” of Cylon and further supports their being either ancient or Earth created. Either way, not only are the five linked to Earth, they’re linked to the journey to Earth.

I wish I could remember the genius person on cylon_secrets that pointed this out: the four revealed as Cylon were all major resistance leaders on New Caprica. The only one left out is Roslin (who as I will explain in a minute I don’t believe to be a Cylon no matter how much I might love that) who is tied in with religious prophecy anyway. I like the idea that this means the Five are actually working to help and protect humanity (perhaps never having rebelled in the first place?) I have big credibility problems with Tigh and Tyrol’s placement. Not so much Tory or Anders (they were in places more likely to ensure their survival; high altitude or in-flight) and worked their way up the ladder to positions of influence from their – it makes sense. But why put Tigh and Tyrol on the same Battlestar as Boomer, as Doral? Aside from my long-held belief that perhaps the Cylon device found in the mini series was because the Cylon had specific plans for the Galactica. It makes a lot more sense if the five are specifically trying to save the humans – perhaps Tyrol was sent there to counter-act Boomer’s influence – perhaps that’s even why they loved each other, to a degree? Either way, this is an assumption I’d be left with if this were the finale.

I don’t think Roslin is a Cylon. She’d have to be one of the final five and they don’t seem to share their visions with the original seven. Further, there have now been two people who’ve had visions of the final five in the Opera House (a place linked to the original exodus I might add). If Roslin were one of them, I doubt she’d be in the same position as Athena, Caprica, D’Anna and Baltar – of looking at them. It seems more likely, given the Oracles’ use of chamalla and their apparent ability to include the Cylon in their religious visions, given that the two religions seem more and more similar, and given that Starbuck’s return proves the gods’ existence, given all that it seems more likely that chamalla induces a state in a human where they can interact and “project” at the same ‘frequency’ as the Cylon. That seems, to me, a more consistent explanation of why Roslin is experiencing Cylon visions than her actually being a Cylon. Though I wish it were otherwise.

Finally, given that the Final Five appear to be protecting the humans on their divinely inspired mission to Earth, I would argue that the Cylon God is a) from Earth and b) protecting humanity. But if the Cylon God is also responsible for the Cylon jihad, then either the Cylon misunderstood him (possible) or they were deliberately cast (this time) as the aggressors.

Conclusion – the Cylon God (and human gods?) is perpetuating the cycle, the exodus, the near-extinction, the war. The Cylon and humanity battle it out, creating the thing that will destroy them, eating their own tails a thousand times over. This is the beginning of the final act which has thematically answered everything though the specifics are hazy (what is the relationship between the god and the gods, the five and the seven and the oracles?). We know what will happen and how this will end. We just don’t know how it’ll get there. 300’s story ends as soon as they are betrayed by the hunchback. Perhaps as soon as they leave for the Hot Gates. They’re already dead, they just have to die. BSG has already given our heroes Earth, they just have to get there.

The only real question thrown out of this is: Hera and Nicky. The hybrids. Are they different? Is this the change that will break these people from their patterns? Was this the ultimate goal of the Cylon God; to subvert the endless cycle of the human gods? Or are they the final puzzle piece that locks us into the next cycle as they start the new wave of humanity that will eventually create their own Cylon to kill them.

We re-construct ourselves endlessly, but we never find anything new.

So, um, yes. I think maybe I’m just nervous because I’ve found myself with a fairly structured, clearly delineated set of beliefs about the final five and Earth and Starbuck that I don’t find dumb but I can think of a million ways it would be totally dumb. So I guess I’m worried because I’m over-invested. It will now matter to me if my personal fanon is overwritten if I don’t think it’s as good. (Which, to an extent is always the case. But usually I’m not so attached to my fanon as “THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THIS’LL MAKE ANY SENSE, ZOMG!”)

Beautifully played, Ron Moore, but you have painted yourself into one hell of a corner and the only way out is a rickety-step ladder leading to the roof.


Okay, so for some less philosophically pretentious stuff, how about Lee on the stand?

His testimony was ridiculously illegal, but he did manage to state all the stuff that makes me believe Baltar genuinely isn’t guilty of what he’s been accused of. I’m not even sure he’s guilty of assisting in genocide since he didn’t know what Six was up to. Things I believe he’s guilty of – breach of security for the ministry of defence, attempted murder (Boomer, Doral), endangering the military during wartime by withholding information (the Cylon detector), giving a nuke to a mentally unstable Cylon thereby responsible for being found by the Cylon, assisting the enemy in their pursuit of Earth (presumed human asset) though this was possibly under duress. Anyone have any more?

I did, of course, love his testimony, and though he’s back in a Viper and I take it as read he’ll be re-enlisting, I kind of hope he doesn’t. This is the Lee I like best.

Laura Roslin – oh she was beautiful during that testimony. Quiet, thoughtful, not condemning him, not angry. Just thoughtful and curious and willing to take in his points.

Because the most powerful thing that was said in this entire episode wasn’t anything about religion or philosophical realities, it was what Lee said about civilizations and gangs.

Because he’s so, so right and I never realized it before but it punched me in the gut, I swear. Because they are a gang now. Perhaps a more polite term – a more appropriate term in view of their religion – would be a tribe. But now, they’re a gang. They have an elected leader, but you know, gangs have been de-facto electing the baddest, most likely to save ‘em leader for a long time now. And look at how Roslin regained the Presidency; a dodgy maneuver based on the mob’s dislike for an unpopular president, cemented with religious rhetoric and a (possibly calculated) friendship with the military leader. An unkind and not entirely representative depiction considering how much I love and respect this character, but slightly true, nonetheless. Roslin’s positions and attitudes, like everyone else’s, have been compromised.

Because they’re no longer a civilization. They’re a gang with one, much bigger gang as an enemy which conveniently means every human belongs to the gang. Which perhaps hides some of the uglier gang mentality that’s developed.

It’s important to note I don’t think this development is entirely negative. It’s necessary. They’re a gang now because that’s what happens when your numbers are decimated and you’re bound together in the face of enormous and deadly opposition. They’ve gotten good at forgiving themselves and letting themselves off the hook because, as Lee said, they had to.

But think about it. Think about what it means to no longer be a civilization. To face that and realize that you’re riding in the husks of a long gone civilization and you’re the shockheads, you’re the hoardes. You’re trying to practice democracy and law but lawyers and democrats are a dying breed and you’re raising your children to grease engines and kill the Cylon and make moonshine to trade for antibiotics you know will run out before your kid turns ten, because slowly, surely, survival is becoming more important than all those things you used to boast made you civilized. Made you better. Made you sure that your society treated its poorest well. Your world is stagnating into a classist, racist mob that loses a little of its idealism with every jump.

And the worst bit is, this is happening despite your best efforts. No one wants this. But look at Adama and the way he went from being so idealized. From stopping the inquiry into Tyrol in Litmus because he felt it had become a witch hunt and that the principles of the inquiry were being betrayed – that they were succumbing to mob mentality. Compare with his intervention in the trial. Superficially similar; assuming the authority to shut down an official line of inquiry, but very different because this time, it’s purely personal interest that’s motivating him.

I like to think that he realized how far he’d fallen which is why he ultimately made the correct choice. I’d like to give him that credit. But I have somehow developed a deep, deep mistrust of Adama and all this proves to me is that he needs to be shocked into sanity and that perhaps it won’t stick. How I mourn for his early-season self.


I’ll take this opportunity to mention that my recently rekindled shipper goggles totally ruined the “Get your ass out of that rack, Roslin,” scene for me. It just rang really…hollow and uncomfortable. And more and more I find myself interpreting the Adama-Roslin relationship as very calculated on her part. Her disappointment in him at the end, for instance. I read that as disappointment in him, that he hadn’t turned out the way she wanted.

She gave Lee a similar look, I suppose, when she left the courtroom. But to my mind the look she gave Lee was breathtaking in its complexity. The look she gave Adama suggested she was disappointed in a child.

Combine with the fact that throughout his rant, she actually seemed to be taking note – to be considering his words and believing them – adds even more layers. Like, I think she honestly believed what he said and saw the truth of it. But as she does sometimes, believed this was an instance where truth was secondary to the survival of the shockhead mob. (I’d note that while Roslin has made heartbreaking, morally dubious and sometimes even angering decisions to facilitate the gang so they’ll survive instead of fighting to maintain the system, I don’t think she has ever succumbed to mob mentality “by accident”. She’s far too aware of all her sins.)

I’m not saying this is how it’s supposed to be. It’s just how I’ve come to see it. I don’t even want to see it this way. In some ways I honestly do wish I could “quit” Lee and Laura because I believe it to be a totally doomed ship; why torture myself? But I can’t help it. It’s what I feel the show is telling me.

Small aside: I could have done without the “Romo – on the stand, did you know what was going to happen?” cliché’d question. It was unnecessary and the audience is smart enough to see that question hanging in the air. Having Romo actually give the cryptic answer is just kind of…eh.


And I believe that’s all I have to say. Oh, whoops, no. Sam and Tory are hot together. I approve this pairing. Go away Starbuck so that Sam and Tory can continue to heat up my screen. Or, you know, go frak Leoben. I swear, Sam/Tory, Kara/Leoben and Laura/Lee. That might be even hotter than Laura/Lee/Tory. Though maybe not. ZOMG! Sam/Tory/Laura/Lee. Oh, OT4, where have you been all my life?

Also, while it still gets honourable mention, I think that Laura/Lee has outedged Laura/Maya as my OTP again.


Oh, no, whoops again. I forgot to mention my crazy mad love for Tigh. I always wanted him to go insane, right since the beginning of the season. And now he has. *is satisfied*

Him being a Cylon has all SORTS of irritating ramifications for what a Cylon IS (his military history; his age; was he replaced?) but it actually quite intriguing in terms of his character.

Also, Adama yet again wins the Enabling Douchebag Friend of the Year award for, “It’s good to have you back.”

ADAMA! You last saw him quite clearly certifiably insane ranting about Cylon music inside the walls of the ship. Yes, Bill. Your best friend believed that the Cylon were insidiously attacking you by putting rock music into the walls of the ship. This is called paranoid ideation with auditory hallucinations. So either he’s a CYLON or he’s MAD.

Thankfully, you at least had the presence of mind to relieve him of duty.

So, when you’re in an extremely dangerous combat situation, where you’ve been ambushed and are highly outnumbered, the correct response to your insane friend who stumbles into the CIC, probably drunk and certainly, as has been mentioned several times now, as mentally unstable as a spinning top on a see-saw, the correct response is probably not, “It’s good to have you back”!!

Edit - upon rewatching I realise I got that slightly wrong. The actual exchange is:
Adama: It's good to see you.
Tigh: You can count on me, Admiral.
Adama: I never doubted it.

Which...yeah. I don't think really changes anything I said above. If only I could believe Adama were humouring him so as to prevent making a scene during a battle. But I don't believe it. /Edit

Idiot. It’s getting the point now where I think Adama’s being seriously irresponsible. In the beginning at least Tigh was a high-functioning alcoholic who, arguably, served a very important purpose and was functional enough they couldn’t afford to lose him.

But now? IT’S IN THE SHIP, BILL! I’M TELLING YOU THE CYLONS PUT THE MUSIC INSIDE THE SHIP!

Joy.

Finally, Meme! Gacked from asta77

Comment and I will...

1 - Tell you why I friended you.
2 - Associate you with a song/film/tv show.
3 - Tell a random fact about you.
4 - Tell a first memory about you.
5 - Associate you with a character/pairing.
6 - Ask something I've always wanted to know about you.
7 - Tell you my favorite user pic of yours.
8 - In retort, you must spread this disease in your LJ.

Note – Unless you specify you’re commenting in response to the meme, I won’t reply re: it.

Also I don’t friend all that many people because I get nervous about being presumptive or friending people I’ve not really chatted to much. This doesn’t mean I discourage random commenters or new people. I actually love that sort of thing! I just get a little shy about up and friending people if I don’t know them/they don’t know me. So anyone out there who I haven’t friended or who’s friended me and I haven’t friended back, go ahead and comment and I’ll do my best to answer! I do actually like meeting new people.

Comments

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

Fascinating commentary. Thanks!! :D

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! Glad you enjoyed it :)

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Me me comment.

But I'm not doing #8, because last time I did this meme I think just about all 90-something people on my f-list commented, and it wound up taking me *days* to reply.

(And I'm sorry I'm so far behind on BSG.)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Okay!

1. You were involved in a kerfuffle I was involved in and you seemed intelligent and calm and actually took the time to come over to my journal and say hi, so I figured, this is a nice guy. Then I went over to your journal and discovered things that were oddly hilarious and oddly moving, and so I thought, well, this can't be a bad addition to my friends' list. It hasn't been. :)

2. I actually associate you with Dead Like Me because I love that show (though I discovered it after it had been cancelled and thus never really posted about it here) but have never really been able to discuss it with anyone/known anyone else who liked it. Not that I'm even sure you like it, but I saw it on your interests list ages ago and for some reason that fact stuck with me. Ah, DLM - such an awesome sense of humour. I really, really miss Rube.

3. You live in the wilds of Scotland. This is probably wise as, being sexier than Jesus, if you lived in a more metropolitan area, the constant stalking and adoration of your female fans might become something of a health risk.

4. Me thinking, "I wish that smart guy would post again," in the aforementioned kerfuffle.

5. Hmm... Well, my first thought was Gonzo the Great (because of your username and my love of the Muppets). My second thought was Boobies/Boobies, or, since I was browing your icon list in preparation for question 7, those girls from Hex (I watched the first season of that which was pretty good, but it went downhill from there). Now, unfortunately, I have an image of Gonzo, with boobies involved in a threesome with the girls from Hex. ...curse you.

6. Assuming that the picture in your sexier than Jesus icon is, in fact you, and that you did, in fact, grow that beard, how long did it take?

7. The one with Kermit going nuts. :)

But I'm not doing #8, because last time I did this meme I think just about all 90-something people on my f-list commented, and it wound up taking me *days* to reply.

I accept that as a reasonable reason and forgive you.

(And I'm sorry I'm so far behind on BSG.)

I forgive you for that too. Plus I'm sure nightxade will bug you about it. :)

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

2) Yep, DLM was yet another show unfairly killed too early. I was never the hugest fan of it, I mean, I never wrote fanfic or anything. But I did love it, and own it. I keep meaning to get around to watching it again.

4) Aww, thank you. I did try to post again in that kerfuffle. But it got to the point where it was obvious the person in question wasn't going to respond to anybody maturely.

5) You win the prize for horrifying mental image of the day. And yes, I agree, Hex S1 was a lot of fun, but I really struggled to maintain my interest in S2. I just didn't take to Ella. And I seriously missed the Thelma/Cassie dynamic.

6) Yep. That's me. And it took... I started in 4th year at Uni, because to be taken seriously as an archaeologist, you had to have a beard. And I grew it in as a goatee first, and that looked awful, so I grew in the sides and that looked a lot better... it probably took, you know, I have no idea.

7) You know, I'm sort of afraid to watch the Muppets again, I fear it might be one of those childhood shows you remember being fantastic, but when you actually see again as an adult, you're left scratching your head wondering what on earth you ever liked about it.


Thank you. I was very touched by this.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

2) They've greenlit a Dead Like Me direct-to-TV movie! Look:

http://www.moviehole.net/news/20070418_dead_like_me_movie_greenlit.html

I think that's a reasonably credible source...

4) It got to the point where the person in question just wasn't responding period. Just deleting... Eh well. At least something positive sprung out of that mess.

5) Um, sorry? ;) I didn't think the actress playing Ella could act well at all - I didn't like her at all and felt that they killed Cassie out of, well, okay, perhaps a genuinely interesting character arc idea, but maybe one which either should have occured at the end of the series, or one they didn't really think too far beyond. It was like, "You WILL like Ella!" And I was like, "No, I DON'T and your whole show is now really, really cruddy!" Um, but perhaps I should have watched more than 3 episodes before writing off the season...

7) Well, I have the muppets on DVD (season one) and haven't watched all of them but in general feel they've aged quite well. Then again, Labyrinth...yeah. I kind of didn't get that one even when I WAS a kid. I'll take the Dark Crystal over Labyrinth any day.

Thank you. I was very touched by this.

You're welcome and I'm glad. :)

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

2) Ooooh, a movie! ... I have doubts about how well it might transfer to TV movie format (much the same doubts that affected Serenity actually), but, more DLM is always a good thing.

4) Yes, the person in question seemed in recent years to develop a tendency towards mass deletion of anything she didn't agree with. Or indeed mass deletion of anything where she came off badly. The falling out I had with my ex-friend over that most recent thing came after she had deleted the post in question, and hid all of the evidence of what she actually said. I think I've ranted to you about this before though, and the way my friend was accusing me of saying things that I didn't actually say, ~after~ the post had been deleted and the evidence hidden.

*mutters and kicks scenery*

5) No, she wasn't a great actress was she. I mean, the only one who was really good was Thelma. And the rest were average. But Ella just didn't have the star quality necessary to carry the show after they switched over to it being 90% about her. I mean, I think they were trying to basically make a Faith Spin-off Rip-off. But she was no Eliza Dushku.

I always wondered if the departure of Cassie was some sort of behind the scenes political thing. And I was also convinced shew as going to return later on. And I must admit by interest in the show really crashed when I heard mid-season that Cassie was not returning in any way shape or form. Not that she was a great actress. Just, that was the emotional core of the show for me, Cassie and Thelma.

[beerbad.livejournal.com]

This was a really great read (as usual!) and it made me think about a lot of stuff. Cheers!!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Thanks :) Always good to hear that someone enjoys my rambling!

[asta77.livejournal.com]

First, do me! Do me!

So I’m unusually worried – I usually have a lot more faith in the writers than this.

I think part of the problem is many of us have seen or at least heard about Galactica 1980. And while I don't think any show ever produced again will achieve those heights (or is it depths?) of badness, I really don't want to see the colonials try to assimilate to life on earth. Of course, we don't know what earth they wil be finding. What if they arrive BC and bring with them the knowledge of the gods?

or because they were created when “all of this happened before” during the first exodus from Earth and have been around since that very ancient time.

We know history is a record presented by the dominent race and that history can be rewritten when new evidence is discovered to contradict what has come before. Think Darwin and his little theory about evolution. So what if the colonials are wrong in believing that thirteen tribes left Kobol? What if thirteen tribes left earth, one group staying behind on Kobol to help point the direction back home?

The fact that the final five don’t seem to be in communication with the original seven is further proof that they are very different “types” of Cylon and further supports their being either ancient or Earth created.

I'm wondering if the Final Five are the First Five. Keep in mind that Ron worked on ST:TNG and, if I recall correctly, in the episode where we are introduced to Data's brother Lore, Lore tells Data that he was the failure and that their father went on to create him to appear more human. Accept, it's discoverd that the emotional and sociopathic Lore was the mistake and Dr. Soon boxed him and created the emotion free Data. What if the four we are now introduced to were deemed to flawed, too much like those they were being copied from? And then the second generation of seven were created. But over the past forty years or so, interacting with humans, they have taken on more and more human characteristics?

OK, there are a lot of holes in this theory that need to be plugged, especially the fact that Tigh is considerably older than the rest, but it's a start!

I don’t think Roslin is a Cylon. She’d have to be one of the final five and they don’t seem to share their visions with the original seven. Further, there have now been two people who’ve had visions of the final five in the Opera House (a place linked to the original exodus I might add). If Roslin were one of them, I doubt she’d be in the same position as Athena, Caprica, D’Anna and Baltar – of looking at them.

Both good points. I still think Hera's fetal blood may be acting as a connection. Pehaps that connection was dormant until Laura began using the chamalla again and it triggered her ability to project. I can't imagine the general cylon population being too happy if they learn one of the leaders of humanity has the potential to project herself into their world.

and though he’s back in a Viper and I take it as read he’ll be re-enlisting, I kind of hope he doesn’t.

I'm torn because while the fleet needs Lee Adama in a viper, it is not the best thing for him. Could he be a reservist? On call for when the fleet is under attack, but not required to fly CAP or bear the burdens of being CAG.

End of Pt 1...

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Part 2...

Laura Roslin – oh she was beautiful during that testimony. Quiet, thoughtful, not condemning him, not angry. Just thoughtful and curious and willing to take in his points.

That she was listening and absorbing what Lee was saying gives me hope that once the immediate reaction of anger and betrayal subsides that she and Lee will be able to reconnect.

Because he’s so, so right and I never realized it before but it punched me in the gut, I swear. Because they are a gang now. Perhaps a more polite term – a more appropriate term in view of their religion – would be a tribe. But now, they’re a gang.

Because most of what Lee had said in his speech was stuff that either myself or others have talked about over the past couple years, his remark about no longer being a civilisation, but a gang really stood out for me too. This actually ties in well with Zarak's statements in 'Colonial Day' about the fleet and specifically that the elite among them are clinging to an old way of life which is gone and have no hope of getting back. (And how awesome would it have been to have Zarek sitting in the court smiling at Lee's words? Where the hell was he???)

Jamie, in his appeareance at I-Con last weekened, mentioned he thinks that in some ways Laura Roslin is just as bad as Gaius Baltar, but there's a difference in perception. I wish I could hear more about his theory, but your remarks about the dodgy way Laura reclaimed the presidency made me realize that Jamie had a point. Laura and Gaius both wanted to be the leader of the fleet, both wanted power, and both were willing to do whatever they had to do to maintain it. The key difference is that Laura believes she is doing what is best for the fleet whereas Gaius is just doing what he sees as best for Gaius. But the means they use to achieve their goals doesn't make them all that different.

They’ve gotten good at forgiving themselves and letting themselves off the hook because, as Lee said, they had to.

Seriously, they cannot afford to be jailing and executing each other. And while Gaius has a lot of abhorant qualities, he is one of the smartest surviving humans. He came up with a cure for cancer! Can they afford to airlock him?

survival is becoming more important than all those things you used to boast made you civilized. Made you better. Made you sure that your society treated its poorest well. Your world is stagnating into a classist, racist mob that loses a little of its idealism with every jump.

And that sums up what has been destroying Lee since the day of the attacks. It also goes a long way in helping to explain his depression and near suicide. Better than Dead Maybe Pregnant Girlfriend. ;p

I’ll take this opportunity to mention that my recently rekindled shipper goggles totally ruined the “Get your ass out of that rack, Roslin,” scene for me. It just rang really…hollow and uncomfortable.

That scene was...odd. I saw it as a preview scene the week before and was wondering what the hell it had to do with the rest of the episode. Not much. It just seems as if Ron is forcing the A/R, but then when he states in the podcasts they really have no intention of going there why waste our time? At least with L/L they haven't given us (intentional) UST that they will then choose to ignore.

But to my mind the look she gave Lee was breathtaking in its complexity. The look she gave Adama suggested she was disappointed in a child.

I haven't gone into much analysis of The Look because I could write pages on it. And perhaps it's more powerful and unnerving then the look she gave Adama because there is more history with Lee. I don't care how much time she and Adama have spent together recently, Lee and Laura have shared some huge, life-altering moments. And Lee was the first person she chose to trust and she didn't seem to realize just how far they had grown apart. I don't think she equated lack of talking with a lack of faith in her.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Okay! *cracks knuckles*

Memeage!

1. Because you actually responded positively to my invading your LJ and gatecrashing your discussion about Lee and his DeadAnd/OrPregnantGirlfriend. So I figured friending wouldn't be some big breach of nettiquette and I could add someone dead cool to my flist. Then I discovered you'd friended me first. :)

2. The obvious would be Battlestar Galactica. So I'm going to say Hornblower, just to be contrary.

3. You make super-awesome Christmas cards.

4. Um, I feel like I'm cheating because it's probably the same as #1 since that was the first time I really interacted with you. Though I believe your name was in a pool of "people who's post-ep commentary I look out for on galacticanews" and I think I knew you were a Lee/Laura shipper.

5. Lee Adama.

6. I want to ask you something insightful and intelligent about who you are as a person, your goals in life, whether you feel you have achieved them/are on track to acheiving them. But I have no idea how to phrase that without sounding like a doofus, so I will ask you the second most insightful question I can come up with: which is your favourite Star Wars film?

7. Just about any of your icons based on the blooper reel - seriously, asking me to choose beyond that is cruel! Though, looking through your icons, I didn't realise you had so many XF icons. Man I loved that show. I thought I'd love it forever. Then again, I was 11 (and 18 when it finally broke my heart).

Okay, on to your comments!

I really don't want to see the colonials try to assimilate to life on earth.

No, me neither and maybe that's the key to part of my ambivalence. Though I'm not deeply worried we're headed in that direction. And even if we were, like you say, could they possibly achieve the depths of 1980?

So what if the colonials are wrong in believing that thirteen tribes left Kobol? What if thirteen tribes left earth, one group staying behind on Kobol to help point the direction back home?

Intriguing...

What if the four we are now introduced to were deemed to flawed, too much like those they were being copied from? And then the second generation of seven were created. But over the past forty years or so, interacting with humans, they have taken on more and more human characteristics?

Again, intriguing. And it would help explain why Tigh's been around so long (since the scenes we saw were Michael Hogan at this age in make-up, I can buy that a long-term undercover mission/defection/being on the run, would necessitate making oneself up to look much younger). I'm not entirely sure I think it's the most likely scenario, but I suppose we could hypothesise that with extremely advanced intelligence that would self-improve at an exponential rate, it wasn't the technical expertise necessary to create a biological construct that proved difficult to the Cylon, but all those difficult things like sanity and emotion.

I still think Hera's fetal blood may be acting as a connection. Pehaps that connection was dormant until Laura began using the chamalla again and it triggered her ability to project. I can't imagine the general cylon population being too happy.

An entirely plausible suggestion. Which again supports the theory that she's tied to the Cylon in a way other than actually being one. And yes, I'm really looking forward to seeing the rest of the Cylon's reactions. It'll be interesting on a personal level from Athena because of the personal history between them. Caprica...well, I've given up trying to work out what side she's one. I don't think she's on the side of humanity, but I don't think she's on the side of the Cylon either and I don't think either of those facts is entirely dependent on Baltar either. It's a crime she doesn't get more screentime. But I don't dare hope this development will change that...

I'm torn because while the fleet needs Lee Adama in a viper, it is not the best thing for him. Could he be a reservist? On call for when the fleet is under attack, but not required to fly CAP or bear the burdens of being CAG.

That would be nice. But...the cynic in me doubts it'll happen...

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Because you actually responded positively to my invading your LJ and gatecrashing your discussion about Lee and his DeadAnd/OrPregnantGirlfriend.

Oh THAT was what the long discussion was about! I couldn't recall what triggered it, but, yeah, now I remember us working hard to rationalize that plot point. :)

My favorite Star Wars film is A New Hope. I know that Empire is considered by the critics and most fans to be the best and I can't say that I disagree from a technical and intellectual perspective. But I saw ANH when I was five and was just mesmorized by it. It made me a life long sci-fi fan and thus helped to shape my life. There is just something so endearing about the film. Luke being a whiny little farm boy. Han, the overly self-assured, reluctant hero. Leia, the bitchy strong, kick-ass heroine. The cuteness of R2 and the prissiness of C3P0. And Darth floating out into space represented so much possability. It was all so new and exciting and I still feel that excitement every time I see it.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

That's cool - A New Hope is my boy's favourite film for just about exactly the same reasons. He also understands that Empire is better made (though I'm biased, it's my favourite, but my Star Wars watching experience was very different to his and yours as I was older - 13 - and watched them all at a trot when they were re-released). But he loves A New Hope for the nostalgia value, for the guts they had in making it, for the innocence, and because, in his words, "nothing will ever be better than the Trench!"

So I approve of your choice and understand it. And love your icon. :)

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Empire was the least tinkered with and thus damaged of the 'Special Edition' versions so it makes sense that would be your favorite.

Even better then the trench ;), is the moment that Han comes in, canons blazing, and saves Luke's ass so he can blow up the Death Star. It's still an exhilerating moment on the 200th viewing. And I'm not kidding with that number. :)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

It's still an exhilerating moment on the 200th viewing. And I'm not kidding with that number. :)

And that, my friend, earns you much respect. I'm probably still hovering around thirty-five.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Part 2!

That she was listening and absorbing what Lee was saying gives me hope that once the immediate reaction of anger and betrayal subsides that she and Lee will be able to reconnect.

I agree. I really, really think that the anger only kicked in when she lost the case. Had she won, she would have felt perhaps betrayed (or hurt) by the cancer revelation, but not by Lee's rant at everyone. Which doesn't necessarily speak well of her as a person, but certainly suggests that her anger is a knee-jerk reaction to getting bad news and that she's retrospectively decided to blame him and be mad with him even though her reaction at the time suggested she knew he had valid points.

This actually ties in well with Zarak's statements in 'Colonial Day' about the fleet and specifically that the elite among them are clinging to an old way of life which is gone and have no hope of getting back.

Yes, totally. I found Zarek's statements compelling at the time, though felt they were undercut (as many of his early philosophical stands were undercut) by his belief that social revolution and reconstruction was a more important priority than defence against the Cylon.

I still wonder what Zarek's alternative is? Because I always support Roslin's illegal dictatorial activities right up to the point where something like this happens and I realise that if you destroy the system all you have is anarchy. And while I am arguably a political anarchist in real life, what I mean in this instance is a complete loss of all checks and balances to safeguard the people. What I mean in this instance is gangland anarchy - petty kingdoms and survival at the whim of the dog at the top. What I mean is exactly what Lee said - not being a civilisation (whether that civilisation is politically anarchic or despotic) but a gang.

So I really, really think that clinging to the system and trying not to let gang mentality take over is all they've got going for them. And that's the decision they keep making again and again, when Adama renounces his coup, when Roslin gives back the election, when Adama chooses to side with the evidence over the fact that he hates Baltar. They choose to hang on to the system, to keep pretending to be a civlisation, loosing battle though it may be.

So what's Zarek's alternative? Is that why he became such a disillusioned man? Because none of his social reforms worked, and all he saw was people regressing towards gang mentality?

Will I ever stop this off-topic tangent? :)

(And how awesome would it have been to have Zarek sitting in the court smiling at Lee's words? Where the hell was he???)

It would have been, and I'd wager he was in contracted-appearances-limbo.

Jamie, in his appeareance at I-Con last weekened, mentioned he thinks that in some ways Laura Roslin is just as bad as Gaius Baltar, but there's a difference in perception.

I agree with him but like you say there's a difference in both perception and motivation. They're both capable of and guilty of comparable crimes, but Baltar does everything to save himself. Roslin does everything to save humanity. Which is, in my opinion, far more noble. But I suppose that's why we want her to sleep with Lee, but not Baltar. ;)

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Honestly, had Laura gotten the verdict she wanted I believe she would have gone over to congratulate Lee on the excellent job he did putting forth the best case possible for his client. It's because of that that I read The Look as an immediate, gut reaction born of frustration and anger at having just lost the case, in part do to Lee's efforts. And I can't lose faith that they'll reconnect on some level since we've seen before that she can admire him and be angry at him at the same time.

I also wonder if a small part her reaction it is that she doesn't like to fail. I know I get pissed when I screw up.

So I really, really think that clinging to the system and trying not to let gang mentality take over is all they've got going for them.

I agree. Though the survivors fail as often as they succeed, they do keep trying. And they need to keep trying, to work at being the people they were, and hold on to their ideals because if they just abandon all that and do whatever they have to to survive, humanity is pretty much screwed.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you said there.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Part 3?!

Seriously, they cannot afford to be jailing and executing each other. And while Gaius has a lot of abhorant qualities, he is one of the smartest surviving humans. He came up with a cure for cancer! Can they afford to airlock him?

That's a good point, but a counterpoint would be, can they trust him? How can they be sure he'll be genuinely curing cancer, or pretending Boomer isn't a Cylon?

And that sums up what has been destroying Lee since the day of the attacks. It also goes a long way in helping to explain his depression and near suicide. Better than Dead Maybe Pregnant Girlfriend. ;p

What doesn't explain his depression better than Dead Maybe Pregnant Girlfriend? I mean, really.

Semi-seriously, I agree with you that it does. And I still maintain that his girlfriend flashbacks were symptoms rather than causes of his depression. One more regret and reason to beat himself up, one more thing to wonder if he should have grabbed when he had the chance, to try to recreate now in poor imitation, a life he thought he should want since he was trying to turn his back on his old one. Um. Yes.

The point is, I AM IN DENIAL!

That scene was...odd. I saw it as a preview scene the week before and was wondering what the hell it had to do with the rest of the episode. Not much. It just seems as if Ron is forcing the A/R, but then when he states in the podcasts they really have no intention of going there why waste our time?

*blinks*

I'm torn between relief that they don't intend to go there, and boggling at the nonsensical nature of that decision.

I haven't gone into much analysis of The Look because I could write pages on it.

Please, don't refrain on my account.

I agree with everything you say, especially about Lee and her history with him.

I know that Adama convinced her not to steal the election and has now gone against her will on the tribunal. And again, I'm at a loss as to how to tell if my bias is showing here, but his relationship with her seems far more one of capitulation. The moments of trust Roslin shows Adama have been more lighthearted moments - ripping up the cue cards or getting him to yell at her to get her out of bed. Perhaps when he was trying to convince not to steal the election, perhaps that was the one time she showed herself being vulnerable, but it wasn't something she originally chose to confide him him. None of that compares to her confiding in Lee about her cancer, the way he broke her out of jail and her complete trust in him (how she was forced to trust him) during their time on Kobol.

Aah, ship. You'll kill me. I swear.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

None of that compares to her confiding in Lee about her cancer, the way he broke her out of jail and her complete trust in him (how she was forced to trust him) during their time on Kobol.

Don't forget that she didn't confide in Adama about faking Hera's death and hiding her in the fleet. That was a HUGE thing to hide from the military commander. And I got the sense that Adama only found out about the cancer this time after she marched out of CIC and he asked what was wrong rather then her volunteering anything.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Good points. I can't be sure it's not just crazed shipper vision - but I felt the same way about that scene. And to be honest, I'm not even sure she told him then, though clearly he knew something was up. Which, I suppose, helps with Lee suspecting also.

[i_kender]

Hello! I've friended you because we have a couple of friends in common; because you posted that awesome superhero meme; and because I've read through the last several entries you posted and I liked everything you said. You don't have to friend me back! I'm not into slash, although I am a huge geek... :)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hello!

You're quite welcome to friend me and I'm flattered that you did because you enjoyed the stuff I'd written, though nightxade gets all credit for finding the meme (I think you're one of her friends anyway?)

Please feel free to come around and comment - I haven't friended you straight away because I'm a little shy about such things but will probably wander over and explore your journal sometime soon :)

To be honest, I'm not usually into slash either - or at least I didn't used to be, but I love the idea of textual reappropriation which kind of leads in nicely to crazy theories and crackpot ideas that can be taken seriously. So perhaps the best way of putting it is, I'm not in it for the porn (which seems to be most people's reason) but rather for the - "Look, writers! LOOK WHAT YOU DID WITHOUT REALISING IT!"

Also, re: your icon - DREAM! I love Sandman.

[projectcyborg.livejournal.com]

FINALLY. I still have your previous ep reactions saved to read at some point, too. but wooooooo finale! your position seems analogous to how I felt at the end of season two. I know I'm in the minority here, but I still see the temporal jump as the root of a lot of season three's problems of pacing and narrative structure. I'm too lazy to find my Ep Reaction of D00000M and link to it, but basically I worried they wrote themselves too many balls to juggle continuity-wise, and in the end they indeed dropped them.

reading your analysis made me go "OMG I want to think more about the Final Five!" (beyond ROSLIN/TORY/STARBUCK/GOD ASDFWOIELKJGHO!!! which is about as far as I got). but then I realized that I hadn't thought more about them rather deliberately because I have no faith that TPTB have any idea what they're doing. I fear overanalyzing it will only lead to disappointment (like I got burned on the cylon virus thing). and you know, for a show that use to regularly amaze with its intricate and surprising narrative turns that's quite the fall from grace.

I'm returning to my season two GOD POV series, and I believe I'll be pretty happy just living obliviously in that cosmology over the hiatus (Roslin/Starbuck = prophet/disciple; god wants to find earth so the master race of hybrids can people it and become us). though I have fantasies of a Roslin/Tory quasi-cylon epic (but I should write my dissertation instead).

I don't think Roslin is or should be a cylon either, by the way (unless she's some divine 13th cylon). I'm stubbornly stuck on the Book of Pythia (hello, continuity!). I believe she's a prophet, and since secretly cylon and colonial deities are one and the same, she (like Starbuck) has deep connections with the cylon. I did say (although I'm also too lazy to find this link) that I didn't think the show's theology could be coherent unless her cancer came back (not least because if Hera becomes us, how do we still get cancer??), so there you have it.

anyway, fascinating and entertaining read, as always!