beccatoria | BSG: The Oath

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BSG: The Oath

OMG SRSLY PEOPLE WHY ARE YOU ALL STILL ASLEEP SO THERE IS NO ONE TO TALK TO ABOUT THIS EPISODE?

Basically, my entire reaction is that it made me ENORMOUSLY blood-thirsty. I now want like, everyone to die horribly. Next episode. Not because I dislike them or anything. Just because they need to die. But probably I have other thoughts too. I shall try to find them.

Laura is always a good place to start. The A/R was not so eye-gougingly horrifying as last time. I still dislike the little almost fanservicey moments like Tigh's reaction to Laura walking out in her bathrobe or "I'll have it ready," re: dinner. I really didn't like that. I know she was being sarcastic and teasing him, but just, blah. Hanging a lantern on the situation doesn't actually make the situation okay. Fortunately the rest of the episode helped change the situation.

I was also glad that everyone had the decency to look embarassed for Laura because she had to kiss that dumb old dude before getting on the raptor instead of ~~Lee~~ ~~Tory~~ ~~Maya~~ ~~Baltar~~ ANYONE ELSE. At least, that's my reading and I'm sticking to it. Although I have to admit, weirdly, the raptor-kissing scene bothered me a lot less than the dumb joke in his quarters. I guess like, the kissing seemed more along the lines of what I was mentally prepared to cope with?

Like for instance I actually liked the awesome way Laura called Adama out on his passive aggressive behaviour. Echoes of earlier in the season when she did something similar and he lashed out and left her crying and pulling out her own hair.

But anyway, moving on to the MORE AWESOME PARTS, Laura, you're back. Sort of. Mainly because that look when Lee and Kara come to get her and she just knows that this is her own damn fault. And, as she always does, she gets up, and tries to deal with it.

And now she's going to be on the Basestar. With CYLONS. FOMENTING CHAOS AND REVOLUTION AND POSSIBLY DECLARING WAR ON THE COMMANDEERED GALACTICA. For real, I did not know how awesome an idea that would be until it occured. I love it. I only wish that Kara and Lee and all my favourite brigged-up cylon had gone with her.

I also enjoyed her scenes with Baltar. And Baltar's scenes with his cult. Mainly because he seems to be back in that mode of playing the role for his own benefit and you guys, you have no idea how much of a relief it is to see Baltar going back to being All About Baltar instead of being All About Being Your Saviour. *shudders*

THE CYLON IN THE BRIG! DON'T HURT THEM! Yes, I know this is at odds with my bloodthirsty desire to see everyone dead, but I'll get to that later. Suffice to say I don't want these guys dead yet.

I'm really not sure why Helo and Sharon didn't lock the door when they heard shooting but whatever, Helo is still a freight-train of stand-up morality, Hera is still adorable, and Athena is still entertaining me with her advice to Sam and eye-rolly response to Caprica.

One of my fondest hopes for next episode (although I'm sure it will be dashed) is that Caprica will break out of the brig using only her DEADLY STILETTO HEELS but until then, I will be satisfied by her making hilariously inappropriate and proselytizing speeches about procreation and freaking out the robotic children.

Also, Hera finally got a hug from a Six that didn't end in DEATH.

It looks like they cut the footage of Caprica getting captured which I'm quasi-grateful for becuase I really can do without the stress of seeing Pegasus rapists beat on her, but at the same time, her capture might have shed light on where she was living. I mean, I assume with Tigh, but who knows.

(I sekritly hope that her new shawly thing is actually Ellen's and that later we'll see her in ridonkulus PINK clothing, but again, I expect my hopes to be dashed.)

KARA AND LEE! I will confess, I didn't know how much I missed those two as the Twins until I saw them again. I didn't even mind the kiss. Kind of like their previous S4 kiss I felt it was completely appropriate and intepretable in numerous ways. For those of you who think it was romantic, well, I agree that was the authorial intention, and don't even have a problem with that, really. I just think that the way in which it was loving also plays into the whole best-friends-grew-up-together-adrenaline-rush-cus-we're-alive dynamic they have that I also love.

How else did I love them? I loved Lee refusing to give up on democracy, and while, yes, Zarek played him, he didn't totally play him. Lee went to get his own information - to find out the facts on the ground. I loved Lee the pragmatist. Lee who is still so furious with the Cylon but also knows that this is the only option left.

No, sorry, as he pointed out in one of the most heartbreaking exchanges of the episode, the only option the Cylon left them with.

I say, as someone who is completely on Team Cylon, who loves and adores this show largely because of the wonderful, complicated Cylon, Lee is absolutely right here.

Lee is actually an interesting counterpoint to Racetrack. Because at first I wasn't on board with her being on board with the mutiny. But actually Racetrack got smacked down by Kara for bitching about Helo. Racetrack got betrayed by Boomer. Racetrack helped save Roslin because she believed in the civilian government or in Laura's visions, not because she was in any way Cylon-friendly. Racetrack was actually - once I thought about it - a good reminder that, like Lee, you can be very, very anti-Cylon without being Connor. Without being one of the Circle. Without also thinking every human collaborator is just as bad as a Cylon. You can have high ideals about democracy and the rights of the people and choose to take arms against your superiors to defend those when it becomes a moral issue and still come down on one side during the start of season two and the other during the end of season four and your morals don't need to have changed in the middle.

Racetrack, again, is committing mutiny because she wants to restore the person she sees as the rightful leader of the people to a position of power.

It's fascinating that she is, in many ways, doing the exact same thing as Lee and has all the same ideals (at least she could, I guess we don't really know), but lacks his cold pragmatism and his understanding that the mutineers will commit worse atrocities here and so...is on the other side.

But to get away from my Racetrack tangent, KARA! OH HONEY. YOU'RE BACK AND IT INVOLVES KILLING PEOPLE AND BEING VERY SCARY AND AWESOME.

I don't have a lot to say except she was perfect. The way she took charge and just decided to singlehandedly put down a shipwide mutiny. The way she just decided, almost Cain-style that she was taking not shit from anyone and started shooting, and yeah. She would have killed Racetrack. Racetrack who she's flown with for three years. Racetrack who she trusts. Racetrack. She'd've shot her. Without a second thought. And as awesome and Kara-Thracey as that is, my friends, that is also terrifying.

It's also a rational response to the situation because Zarek and Gaeta made it this scary.

This mutiny is the Galactica's Pegasus moment. Made easier to swallow by the reintroduction of all the Pegasus crazies, but it's not them leading the charge. It's not even really Zarek.

Because guess what? Zarek and Gaeta don't have good points. Not a single frakking one. No better than Cain's "good point" about how Gina was a machine so it was cool to rape her. All of Zarek's points are about manipulating people for a power grab. All of Gaeta's are about rage.

Lee is the one with the good points here. That it's not fair, that it's not just all they have left but all they've been left with. That it sucks this is their only option. That it doesn't earn an iota of forgiveness, or quench an ounce of anger.

The only true point Gaeta and Zarek have is that people are angry and aren't going to stop being angry just because they also want to live. But their response and their justifications are as useless as Cain's justifications for shooting the civilians on the Scylla. For what happened to Gina. For ordering Adama's assassination.

When they're more insane than the situation that precipitates them, they stop being good points and start being one more symptom of the nihilistic, broken world you've chosen to make.

Galactica is turning into Pegasus as we watch.

Here is the point where they just quietly go mad and decide the body count is immaterial, what matters is somehow exerting control.

What matters is Seelix leading two marines up to Sam, watching them beat the shit out of him, and deciding that the pain of watching them do it is less then the pain of watching them stop. What matters is Skulls deciding it's better to make a cruel joke about Laird's death than consider what it means. What matters is Gaeta turning into Cain and salving his conscience by ordering up the same kind of kangaroo court trial for the Admiral that Cain had for Helo and Tyrol.

It's kind of amazing that I understand it, and that I don't really feel it comes out of nowhere. It comes out of the same loss that precipitated Pegasus' breakdown. With the loss of Earth, they lost their worlds again.

But it also makes me bloodthirsty in a way I can't justify.

It's not that I hate any of the characters, but I just want everyone to die. Like I want the ship to be retaken by the "good" guys, and for Gaeta and Seelix and Zarek and Connor and Narcho and Skulls and maybe even Racetrack (though that might actually upset me) to stand trial for treason and mutiny and get executed. Or gunned down horribly.

I want a body count, because dammit, they went brutal on us here. The show started it, so it damn well better finish it. We're in the final season. There's no more room for escalation.

And I know, if they execute every damn one of the people involved in this mutiny, they won't have enough people to run the ship. I don't care. I want to see it happen.

Not because I think that this particular crime is deserving of such punishment. Not because I think they deserve less leniency than the people who got a blanket pardon after New Caprica, or the people who helped Roslin with her insurrection in season two, or any of the other billion and three mutinies or acts of treason we've seen over the course of the series. Of course they're just as deserving of forgiveness.

Maybe in some ways that's the point. I just...I can't see it working. Gaeta cannot ever, ever go back to being an officer in CIC. Narcho can never be just another pilot. Even on New Caprica, it somehow stopped short of actual murder (although only through sheer luck) and even if that execution had happened, somehow it was off the sacred ground of the Galactica herself. It was under duress of the enemy, in a snake pit, and the culprits were at least ashamed enough to stay masked.

The power of this story is its nihilism. It needs a pointless, horrific, nihilistic end. Obviously, I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I don't think that a grand speech from an Adama or the President about healing wounds and how few they have left will cut it this time.

I want a bodycount. I want Gaeta, Zarek and at least the other major ringleaders like Connor to stand trial and die. And for it to be an empty, hollow experience for everyone involved.

And dammit, really, I don't know what's gotten into me to make me this bloodthirsty.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I haven't actually read what you said yet, and I'm still processing because I just finished watching five minutes ago, but

MY GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is all right now. There will be more later. *bounces* OMG!

LAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YOU CAME BAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK!

Brilliant commentary, and I almost feel sorry for Gaeta, he's worked so very hard all these years to be the perfect offficer, the honest man and every time he's been beaten down, he's even lost his leg.

And just when he's getting angry about these things, Adama forces this on the fleet. It's like you said, he decides to something about it.

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it!

It's really weird how I feel about Gaeta. Like, I feel sorry for him, but also I want him to die horribly. I feel so EVIL! ;)

You've just expressed thoughts about this ep I didn't realize I had. :P

Added to memories to save forever and I'll be back later with actual thoughts. :)

Hee, well I hope they were thoughts you wanted to have then. ;)

Look forward to any further thoughts when/if you have them and am glad you enjoyed reading.

Really good post. I've been going around arguing that Gaeta and Zarek's motivations and rationale aren't really as forthright or justified as they seem on the surface because of Zarek's underlying power-hunger (which has always been there, he cloaks it with his talk of "revolution" - as though revolution were actually relevant in their situation with actual survival in the balance) and Gaeta's underlying rage. You said this far better.

Thank you! I'm glad that I seem to be making sense. I completely agree that while the arguments Zarek and Gaeta are making may seem to make sense, they're not actually the reasons they're doing this.

It's interesting that everyone who actually understands the reasons they're claiming - like Lee - all the people who feel it keenly rather than as a front for power or rage - all those people are on the opposite side of the mutiny because those reasons are valid, but not enough to trump survival or the necessity of the alliance.

One of my fondest hopes for next episode (although I'm sure it will be dashed) is that Caprica will break out of the brig using only hear DEADLY STILETTO HEELS

This!!! *wishes hard*

Ok, rambly thoughts time. You've summed up so many things about the episode that I passed over entirely last night in my show excitement.

My review was a lot more glee-filled, because there are so many things I'd been missing that the show gave to me wrapped in a scary, awesome package. I mean, Laura, Kara, Lee, and Chief(!) all being ridiculously amazing and kicking ass! Roslin and Baltar having a conversation about truth and manipulation. If there had been more Cylons, it would have kind of given me everything I didn't even know I wanted to see. And I'll continue to be excited I think, but I'm a lot more thinky in the morning than I was last night.

Here is the point where they just quietly go mad and decide the body count is immaterial, what matters is somehow exerting control.

Yeah, I think you've really hit on all of the scarier implications, the mutiny has fully crossed the line and it's not really even about the alliance anymore (if it ever really was more than the excuse), it's about causing pain and hurting people so they'll share your loss. It's just rage now. Connor, especially, has always been about this. I'm so sad for the Galactica mirroring Pegasus here, but it was awfully appropriate that we saw Gage again for the first time since that arc too.

I want a bodycount. I want Gaeta, Zarek and at least the other major ringleaders like Connor to stand trial and die. And for it to be an empty, hollow experience for everyone involved.

And I think we're likely to get something like this. There won't be an easy patch for this time, and whitewashing it away isn't going to do anything. *sad for my show* I don't really want more pain and suffering for these people, but I'm not sure I'd buy it if we get anything else after the show's taken us here.

Also, best analysis of Racetrack's motivations.

I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT ALONE IN MY DESIRE TO SEE CAPRICA STILETTO HEEL A BITCH.

Maybe afterwards she can snap a neck or two.

I think the only reason my review seems less glee-filled is that thinkiness IS my glee. So when I go on and on about character and motivation and angstiness and stuff that like, is me squeeing!

But yeah, I did miss the Cylon. COME BACK AWESOME ROBOTS! Still, NEXT WEEK when Laura's on the BASESTAR OMG!

And I think we're likely to get something like this. There won't be an easy patch for this time, and whitewashing it away isn't going to do anything. *sad for my show* I don't really want more pain and suffering for these people, but I'm not sure I'd buy it if we get anything else after the show's taken us here.

Yes, I agree completely. It's not that I want it to be that awful, but anything else would seem dishonest to the emotional truth of the situation.

I think the only reason my review seems less glee-filled is that thinkiness IS my glee.

And that is a completely AWESOME way to squee. My process is more my brain shooting off at warp speed and only later settling into a slow spin where I can start to process, so I really enjoy reading these to help kick start that cycle. :D

I love this review (I love your ep reactions, pretty much across the board, and you usually say everything so I'm left tongue-tied - oh, and apologies in advance for quoting half your post) - but the part I love best is this:

You can have high ideals about democracy and the rights of the people and choose to take arms against your superiors to defend those when it becomes a moral issue and still come down on one side during the start of season two and the other during the end of season four and your morals don't need to have changed in the middle.

You've given me back Racetrack. I was just as dumbfounded and sad as Lee to see here there, but you help me understand how she got there and why she's not beyond hope.

I only wish that Kara and Lee and all my favourite brigged-up cylon had gone with her.

"Cylon" as both singular and plural! LOVE. :D

how much of a relief it is to see Baltar going back to being All About Baltar instead of being All About Being Your Saviour.

I was never so giddy to see him looking out for number one!!

No, sorry, as he pointed out in one of the most heartbreaking exchanges of the episode, the only option the Cylon left them with.

I teared up again just reading this line. And then:

Lee is the one with the good points here... That it sucks this is their only option. That it doesn't earn an iota of forgiveness, or quench an ounce of anger.

Lee was one of the best things about this awesome episode. Sometimes he can overthink things, but here he's brilliantly clear about what he does, and why, and there's not a second of wasted motion in his actions.

Galactica is turning into Pegasus as we watch.

...

What matters is Seelix... deciding that the pain of watching them do it is less then the pain of watching them stop.

Gods, I love this show. Bear McCreary said next week makes this week look slow by comparison. *joins you on the bloodthirsty train*

Wow, thank you. I'm really glad you enjoyed it and especially overjoyed that I helped you understand Racetrack a little better because I had a, "Oh no, oh no, did they just take Racetrack?" reaction and experienced a similar surge of relief when I realised, actually, yeah, I get this. I can understand this in a way that makes her afriad and uncertain and determined rather than bloodthirsty and eeeeeevil.

Also HOORAY for Cylon as singular and plural! I used to do that almost exclusively after D'anna did it at the start of S3, but sometime in S4 I think I quite for ease and because the Cylon themselves seemed confused by it. But today I was like, No, Screw it, I love that it's singular and plural and I SHALL START USING IT AGAIN!

So I'm happy someone noticed. ;)

Gods, I love this show. Bear McCreary said next week makes this week look slow by comparison. *joins you on the bloodthirsty train*

SLOW?! ARGH. *anticipates heartattack*

i thought kara was absolutely amazing, too. the best she's been in a long time, like she said herself.

while i appreciate bsg's bleakness, i most certainly do not want a nihilistic ending. that would leave me really devastated. while i think that gaeta et al deserve what's coming to them, i still want a "good triumphs over evil" ending overall.

while i appreciate bsg's bleakness, i most certainly do not want a nihilistic ending. that would leave me really devastated. while i think that gaeta et al deserve what's coming to them, i still want a "good triumphs over evil" ending overall.

Well, I'm easier on the overall ending, although I'd prefer it not be a totally nihilistic wasteland.

But I wasn't so much talking about the end of the show as the end of this arc. Because I know we're in the last ten episodes and they'll all tie in tightly to each other, but at the same time, I don't think this mutiny and the immediate fallout are going to stretch out for another seven episodes. I imagine that there'll be like a quasi arc-break before we start up on the final explosion of storytelling?

So I want the mutiny to have a horrible nihilistic ending and then they can start up with the real endgame for the show.

I am awake! I can't sleep on BSG mornings! And I'm not used to you not being like a billion hours away in Korea!

she just knows that this is her own damn fault. And, as she always does, she gets up, and tries to deal with it.
Mom has had her day off and now it's time to go pick up the kids at the hospital. Unfortunately, they aren't doing so well . . . I don't know if she can really get them back.

I only wish that Kara and Lee and all my favourite brigged-up cylon had gone with her.
I don't know why they didn't go. Except maybe no one wants to blow the Galactica. It is home. Or they want to go hook up where Cylons aren't around. We'll see. :-)

I just think that the way in which it was loving also plays into the wholebest-friends-grew-up-together-adrenaline-rush-cus-we're-alive dynamic they have that I also love.
I LOVE THEM!!!! Yep, I think that's all I have to say on that. :-)

KARA! OH HONEY. YOU'RE BACK AND IT INVOLVES KILLING PEOPLE AND BEING VERY SCARY AND AWESOME.
HOW MUCH DO I LOVE MY GIRL RIGHT NOW?? THIS MUCH!!!!!

The only true point Gaeta and Zarek have is that people are angry and aren't going to stop being angry just because they also want to live.
I actually did think they had a point. I had been uncomfortable with Adama and Roslin's leadership a bit since they were torturing Baltar in season 3. Now they are ignoring the Quorum. I don't love the Quorum members but you can't just dismiss the voice of the people when they disagree with you. But you're right, the deeper point is people are angry and disappointed. The Quorum only represents this. I'm curious as to what Gaeta and Zarek will do differently now. How to satisfy that anger? Kill the Cylons? What? Would that even work? I'm really curious where they are going with this.

Ooh, interesting Gaeta as Cain. I don't think so. But it's an interesting thought. Has war forged Felix Gaeta into a Razor? I don't know.

You want death! I think I do too. Not my boy, not really. But. I want him to go all the way. I think it's time. And you are right. We've got seven eps left and they have to count. Through the ep, I just wanted him to follow through and not back down and he didn't! I found it very awesome. And if they kill him, they better frakking kill every last mutineer too. And Zarek. And the captains of the rebel ships. I don't want blood, but if they take my boy I want them all to go down with him. Damn it.

The blood-thirtiness is infectious! No. :-) I think the show is building somewhere and we don't want it to end somewhere lame. I really want my boy to live. I can even see it being possible. If there is a line he won't cross. He can still turn it around, maybe. No, not be in CIC again. But who can you ever trust ever again? Why is Adama trusting Tigh? There is no trust. No hope. We know this. Maybe we just want to finally see that take shape on screen.

Sigh. I'm in denial, the boy is practically dead and buried isn't he? But more than I want him to live, I want his death to mean something. Maybe they will realize what they were becoming as a result of this. Honestly, I can't see Adama running this fleet again. Or Roslin. It's all broken now and we aren't going to get it back.

I love this show. I keep saying it because I do. :-)

See, I'm slightly Cain on the Quorum and the voice of the people thing: it's an icky situation and the people do need to be heard, but the quorum has far too much power and control in a time of war. It might be a long time of war, but it's still a time of war and the decisions about the safety of the fleet should not be brought up before the committee first, when you're being hunted.

As for Gaeta and Zarek? I've yet to see any notion that Zarek is interested in the voice of the people. Gaeta might still have that in him still if Zarek doesn't influence him enough, but is dealing with that something he's capable of? He's certainly got the power and rhetoric -- enough to do in one mess hall chat what took Roslin and Baltar much more time, respectively. But there's the "then what?" to deal with.

Of course, the bloodthirsty is here too and I have this odd feeling that everything and everyone is just going to go *boom* which really, solves the whole problem.

it's still a time of war and the decisions about the safety of the fleet should not be brought up before the committee first, when you're being hunted.
Ooh, interesting point. You'd advise a military state? That would be certainly be more . . . efficient. I have felt that way, especially when the Quorum were like bickering children that Laura had to manage. But you dismiss them and give the excutive body and/or military no check, you do get Pegasus. Sunshine boys in CIC. Gina. Jaffe. Laird. Gosh, Laird a twice-victim. I'm impatient with the Quorum but there needs to be a government even in war. Maybe especially in war.

But there's the "then what?" to deal with.
Yes, the then what indeed? I want to believe Gaeta has a plan for all this besides 'let's not unite with the Cylons". He's a smart man, I want to know if he truly has a vision and goals. We'll see.

everyone is just going to go *boom* which really, solves the whole problem
Probably. :-) It does seem to happen again and again in this 'verse. Kobol, the 13th colony, now this. Always resetting itself. But why the continual cycle? I really need the show to give us some answers on this!

You made me all thinky instead of bloodthirsty! :-)

There does need to be something for the voice of the people and really, that used to be Roslin vs Adama. But now that they are ruling together, it not work so good. After so much time, you can't expect only military rule, the people will rebel (ref: Pakistan). But when significant decisions arise regarding the safety of the fleet, then no, it doesn't go to vote of non-military people (ref: any war in our history, for better or worse.) That stipulation should have been created in Lee's Ideal Gov't. Yes hard times still need order, but hard times require hard decisions too. And fast ones.

Basically, I would want a compromise between Pegasus and old Galactica. I would have loved a world where Cain and Roslin ruled, with Bill as their puppy. ;)

Mom has had her day off and now it's time to go pick up the kids at the hospital.

Heh, I love your metaphors. Just wanted to say that. ;)

I love this show. I keep saying it because I do. :-)

It bears repeating. I don't know if I can ever say it enough either. *beams*

Oh! It was not my metaphor!

beccatoria directed me to

pellucid who used the metaphor first last week in her journal. Because come on, Laura is so mom.

I don't know if I can ever say it enough either. *beams*
We will keep repeating it for the next several weeks, I bet. Never gonna be a show like this one again. :-)

I actually did think they had a point. I had been uncomfortable with Adama and Roslin's leadership a bit since they were torturing Baltar in season 3. Now they are ignoring the Quorum. I don't love the Quorum members but you can't just dismiss the voice of the people when they disagree with you. But you're right, the deeper point is people are angry and disappointed. The Quorum only represents this. I'm curious as to what Gaeta and Zarek will do differently now. How to satisfy that anger? Kill the Cylons? What? Would that even work? I'm really curious where they are going with this.

Hmm, I think I phrased it wrong. What I meant by they don't have a point is that the points they're claiming they have are fronts for their real motivations - revenge, rage, power-grabbing.

Any good points they claim to be acting on are eloquently expressed by Lee, but not really touched on my by the people in the mutiny itself, and Lee is on the other side of the issue.

Because as you note, they don't explain what they're going to do instead. Because all of the valid points they have for doing what they're doing don't actually logically lead to this kind of mutiny. Perhaps they don't lead to Adama's attitude of just accepting the alliance wholesale on cylon terms either, but it doesn't lead to this.

So I think that Zarek and Gaeta are twisting all the good points they might have in order to justify something unjustifiable. They're not actually acting in the best interests of the people or even the quorum's fears - they're manipulating them. And at that point it doesn't matter if you have a good point lost in there somewhere, it matters what you're doing.

I hope I'm making sense?

Ooh, interesting Gaeta as Cain. I don't think so. But it's an interesting thought. Has war forged Felix Gaeta into a Razor? I don't know.

The interesting thing is, actually, I don't think it has. But then I don't think Cain was a razor either. I think that Kendra was. Kara in this episode, most emphatically is. But Cain? She wasn't a razor she was just full of rage and a desire for revenge. Being a razor means turning off being a human being for as long as you need to. And Cain's problem was that she couldn't and she was consumed by anger and an inability to let things go.

Has war turned Felix Gaeta into something very similar to Cain? I guess yeah, I do think so.

Honestly, I can't see Adama running this fleet again. Or Roslin. It's all broken now and we aren't going to get it back.

I do really wonder how that will work out. I guess I can see Roslin and Adama back in charge if only because Roslin can come out of this as another fraudulent saviour who put down the violent crazies (if they can spin it that way), and similarly so can Adama. People are fickle with short memories and as soon as it becomes clear quite how bloody Zarek's revolution is, the stability of the previous government will look mighty appealing an I imagine a lot of, "I was always on Adama's side really!" squealing to start.

But...I'm also not sure that would be so dramatically satisfying.

Like you say, it's very broken and there needs to be something big that happens in recognition of that fact.

Any good points they claim to be acting on are eloquently expressed by Lee, but not really touched on my by the people in the mutiny itself, and Lee is on the other side of the issue.
Good point about Lee. He needs to step to the forefront. He's on the other side but actually agrees on some levels with Gaeta. (Hell, he's mutinied once, he knows the drill.) Yet Lee tried an alliance with the Cylons. What an interesting place Lee Adama is in.

Because all of the valid points they have for doing what they're doing don't actually logically lead to this kind of mutiny. Perhaps they don't lead to Adama's attitude of just accepting the alliance wholesale on cylon terms either, but it doesn't lead to this.
Middle ground. These people need to get creative. There is something between total alliance and total separation. I don't know what that is and if these people are willing to figure it out anymore. I think space family is exhausted and totally short on patience at this point and cousin Gaeta just lit up the family reunion. It is officially over.

And at that point it doesn't matter if you have a good point lost in there somewhere, it matters what you're doing.
Wow, you do make sense! I have had this conversation in a couple of journals and you put it best. I think a lot of people's good points have gotten lost. Racetrack, as you said above. Seelix wanted so much to be a pilot. For this?

I'll admit that Gaeta is wrong in his actions. Maybe his point, a good point, got lost when Laird went down. They all have to refind their points, together and NOW, or they are all just as lost as he is. I don't know if they can find it, Becka. I don't know.

Being a razor means turning off being a human being for as long as you need to
You think Kara has, but Gaeta hasn't? Interesting. He did fire on that raptor. And Zarek is definitely a razor. Some of the mutineers are too. Skulls, but not Racetrack. Gage, but not Neward. And I disagree, Cain turned her humanity off. I think she did big time to let her men gang-rape her former lover. They felt beyond rage and revenge to me. Or even shooting her X.O. Gaeta is not quite there yet, but sadly he is heading there.

the stability of the previous government will look mighty appealing and I imagine a lot of, "I was always on Adama's side really!" squealing to start.
The fickleness of the people. That makes me bloodthirsty. Bah! That would be very dramatically unsatisfying. I don't want it all to mean nothing, you know. I don't want Gaeta's life to mean nothing. He had never gotten a single thank-you for anything he's done or an apology for what was done to him. And yet, intentionally or unintentionally, his actions could propel the fleet into something entirely new. It simply can't be the way it was before or all of this is all for nothing.

You think Kara has, but Gaeta hasn't? Interesting. He did fire on that raptor. And Zarek is definitely a razor. Some of the mutineers are too. Skulls, but not Racetrack. Gage, but not Neward. And I disagree, Cain turned her humanity off. I think she did big time to let her men gang-rape her former lover. They felt beyond rage and revenge to me. Or even shooting her X.O. Gaeta is not quite there yet, but sadly he is heading there.

Well, that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is being able to completely detach yourself from what you're doing, like you disconnect.

It's obviously a matter of pure opinion since Kara was definitely enjoying herself, but in a weird way I felt that was because she was finally in a situation where she was free to act and not really consider the consequences. Just do whatever the hell it was necessary to do until she could be human again. And for Kara that distance from having to think about anything beyond the exact second she's living in is really, really freeing.

Kendra is an example of this in a flatter way, but again, Kendra managed to do terrible things, and be a very similar person to Kara without losing what she was.

That, to me, is a Razor. "When you can be this, for as long as you have to be, then you're a razor."

The problem is, that Cain wasn't "this" for as long as she had to be. She wasn't a keen blade that sliced through everything and just acted, free movement, living in the instant, not flinching.

Cain was something else. She wasn't emotionally unattached. She was too emotionally attached and she used all her "razor" and "don't flinch" bullshit to act like it was a rational response but really she was just full of anger and vengeance and rage.

I think I made a mistake by appropriating Cain's terminology and using it in my own fanonical way. But I guess what I mean is that no, neither Cain nor Gaeta have managed to detach themselves from their humanity. Cain just managed to detach herself from all the good parts of her humanity and totally wallow in all the awful parts. She didn't stop being human, she just became a really, really shitty one.

And while Gaeta's not on Cain's level (and I hope he doesn't get there and that there's some redemption for him before the end), I do think that the journey he's on is more like Cain's rather than Kendra's pure detachment from her entire existence, from good, from bad, from anything except the sum of her choices and the effects of her actions?

*hopes this makes sense!*

or "I'll have it ready," re: dinner.

I hated that. Actually, I hated her playing the role, however briefly, of The Girlfriend. Ack.

Like for instance I actually liked the awesome way Laura called Adama out on his passive aggressive behaviour.

One of the best A/R moments EVA! And soooo relieved it wasn’t Adama, as I feared, but Lee who snapped her back to reality and made her realize she has to save her people!

you have no idea how much of a relief it is to see Baltar going back to being All About Baltar instead of being All About Being Your Saviour.

I do, I really do. And it was like a (good) reset had been hit and all the characters were back to being the people we know and love and being their awesome selves…accept, of course, for Adama. ;)

One of my fondest hopes for next episode (although I'm sure it will be dashed) is that Caprica will break out of the brig using only hear DEADLY STILETTO HEELS

That is the only reason for her to be wearing four inch stiletto heels. IT MADE NO SENSE!

her capture might have shed light on where she was living. I mean, I assume with Tigh, but who knows.

I wouldn’t assume with Tigh, but I would assume not in the brig.

I didn't even mind the kiss. Kind of like their previous S4 kiss I felt it was completely appropriate and intepretable in numerous ways. For those of you who think it was romantic, well, I agree that was the authorial intention, and don't even have a problem with that, really. I just think that the way in which it was loving also plays into the whole best-friends-grew-up-together-adrenaline-rush-cus-we're-alive dynamic they have that I also love.

I’m shocked! We read the scene the same way!

Racetrack helped save Roslin because she believed in the civilian government or in Laura's visions, not because she was in any way Cylon-friendly. Racetrack was actually - once I thought about it - a good reminder that, like Lee, you can be very, very anti-Cylon without being Connor.

I agree. In many ways Lee and Racetrack are on the same side – they both want civilian rule – but Lee is trying to work Laura and the system to ensure that happens and Racetrack and others have grown impatient waiting for the president to lead them.

And we are meant to be shocked by Racetrack’s choice because, really, you just never know about people. You think you know them, Lee was reeling form the thought of his friend standing by while he was about to be executed, but even though Racetrack accepted Athena, has flown missions with other Cylons, and has been the person you can count on to have your back, she’s lost as much as anyone else to the Cylons. And to suddenly be told that you are not just going to have to live with them, but they are going to be part of your government, they are going to have a hand in making laws that dictate how you live, and it’s all being foisted upon you seemingly by one man, well, it was more than she could take.

Racetrack, again, is committing mutiny because she wants to restore the person she sees as the rightful leader of the people to a position of power.

And with Laura resigning the presidency without actually resigning the presidency, leadership, to the minds of the mutineers, falls to Tom Zarek. He’s not a good choice, but he’s seen as their only choice.

Edited 2009-01-31 19:28 (UTC)

Roslin/Adama: I am becca's enemy because I've always wanted them together (but didn't want to *see* it), however, I've never considered them as an equal couple. Adama is puppy. Her joke about dinner was more than just sarcasm to me. It sounded a lot more like "frak you, I'm just sleeping with you because it's amusing and so fun to control you and hahaha did you see that look in Tigh's One Eye?? bwahahaa!"

Lee didn't inspire Laura to get off her ass. She was dressed *as the president* and at the door when they got there. Plus the subtle flash of her eyes back to the book when Tigh and Adama were discussing the situation earlier. She was already on her way back before the shit hit the fan, and she didn't even know what was going on yet when she'd gotten dressed. I prefer the concept that Laura had asked for time. Used Bill to get it. And now (perhaps a bit late) she was Back. (And is now on her way to her shiny new ~~office~~ Basestar to take control.

Just thought of something: Adama was making a last stand, having secured the safety of the president. Is this him committing suicide, but with dignity? Or truly believing that he's no longer the one that can be the hero to the fleet.

To your point below about the Basestar: I'm hoping there will be serious Cylon opinion going on next ep, and I don't mean the Briglons - I mean the free ones on the Basestar. Although, their leaders are dead - 'cept for Tory!

Ironic that the people can choose Zarek as their only choice without him ever giving any actual alternative to the evil cylon joint forces plans. Of course, angry people hear what they want to, right?

Is this him committing suicide, but with dignity? Or truly believing that he's no longer the one that can be the hero to the fleet.

Well, Bill is the Admiral and if the ship is going down, so to speak, he's going down with it. Not to mention, he's not going to allow his people to fight and die while he's in the relatively safety of the Cylon basestar.

Speaking of the basestar, between the promo and something I just found out, I think there is the potential for some very interesting scenes on that ship next week.

No I didn't expect him to get on the shuttle. I just meant he certainly didn't position himself for a proper last stand, like Tigh actually taking cover and aiming. Either Adama was making himself an easy target, or else he's just that badass again.

Edited 2009-02-01 16:17 (UTC)

Lee didn't inspire Laura to get off her ass. She was dressed *as the president* and at the door when they got there.

I think the reason I'm attached to the fact that the final straw was Lee showing up to tell her the ship was under mutiny from Zarek and Gaeta (and really I credit the ridiculously awful situation that was largely her own fault through inaction with REALLY waking her up) rather than just her doing it on her own is that her doing it on her own reads awfully close to the Magical Power of Adama's WUV fixing her. Which is icky. Or to saying that Adama did the right thing by enabling her horribly because she really did just need time. Which might have been true in Sometimes a Great Notion, but certainly not by A Disquiet Follows my Soul.

So yes, she was absolutely starting to come around to what she needed to do from the start of the episode, but it was the awful situation and Lee and Kara showing up to tell her about it that lightning fast destroyed even her pretences of not caring anymore.

But but she was caring before that! :( When Bill was leaving and she advised him on the quorum and stopped herself. And before that.. she's been paying attention, just avoiding doing.

I give Bill no credit for her comeback. She just used him. He might have enabled her by giving her a place to hide out, but it's not like he could have forced her to do anything.

Meh, I know you louv L/R, but ultimately, I love Roslin/Roslin and I refuse to give credit to anyone but Roslin for getting Roslin back in control. (Also credit to her diginified proud humility vs. Baltar.)

Unless of course it's Roslin/Cain.

"I need time."
"Bitch you'll have time when you're dead."

Edited 2009-02-01 17:55 (UTC)

I hated that. Actually, I hated her playing the role, however briefly, of The Girlfriend. Ack.

ACK ACK ACK ACK ACK!

(Also much agreement on other issues like the Lee/Kara kiss and being glad it was Lee, not Adama who snapped Laura out of her craziness.)

That is the only reason for her to be wearing four inch stiletto heels. IT MADE NO SENSE!

Actually, and I'm a dork for remembering, but I'm pretty sure those are the shoes she arrive on Galactica in way back in season three. I hope to the Lords of Kobol they occasionally wash it but basically she's been wearing the same black halter-top and pants since she got to Galactica and she's still wearing them she just has some weird poncho thing over the top this episode. She was barefoot when she was an actual prisoner in the brig, so I just assumed that they gave her her shoes back when the amnesty came into effect and they may literally be the only shoes she has.

Which doesn't make it any less ridiculous that she's making some melodramatic speech about biology and all I can do is stare at her feet.

And with Laura resigning the presidency without actually resigning the presidency, leadership, to the minds of the mutineers, falls to Tom Zarek. He’s not a good choice, but he’s seen as their only choice.

Exactly. I'm kind of surprised that Zarek didn't agitate for an actual vote of no confidence considering that it would almost certainly have passed because Laura was blatantly failing to fulfill the duties of her office.

That said he probably would expect the Quorum to then do the same thing they did last time this happened and vote him out and vote Lee in, so it's better for him to remain the Vice-President and get them all hating on ANY Adama than to get himself instated as President only for Adama to throw another hissy fit and install Lee instead.

When they're more insane than the situation that precipitates them, they stop being good points and start being one more symptom of the nihilistic, broken world you've chosen to make.

And Zarek seems to have forgotten that a basestar armed with nukes is outside his front door. Really, this was never a winnable situation.

It comes out of the same loss that precipitated Pegasus' breakdown. With the loss of Earth, they lost their worlds again.

Excellent observation! That aspect had escaped me.

The power of this story is its nihilism. It needs a pointless, horrific, nihilistic end. Obviously, I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I don't think that a grand speech from an Adama or the President about healing wounds and how few they have left will cut it this time.

People do have to die this time. Yes, humans killed humans on New Caprica, but that was driven by fear of losing their own life or a misguided belief they were doing the right thing or just having no other options. There were choices to be made this time. They aren’t trying to garner support from the fleet. The mutineers aren’t just taking hostages. They aren’t trying to use those hostages to try and negotiate. They are just gunning people down at random. This isn’t the Cylons doing, this is their own doing. And, yes, I think people need to die. At some point you have to stop forgiving or the people will just continue to do whatever they damn well want because there are no consequences. Maybe Zarek and Gaeta will die in a firefight or by their own hand, but part of me thinks they really need to be blown out an airlock.

And Zarek seems to have forgotten that a basestar armed with nukes is outside his front door. Really, this was never a winnable situation.

Ooh, good point.

I'm still holding out hope for Gaeta. He's an honourable man who's been through terrible things and thinks he's doing the right thing. Unfortunately, some of his new friends are seriously sketchy (but then, Kara's attempt to summarily execute Nowart was pretty damn sketchy too). I doubt he realises (yet, anyway) that Gage, for example, isn't in this to save democracy but so he can rape Cylon women and get away with it. But Zarek killing Laird when non-lethal force would've been a far more appropriate response... Well, Gaeta, that's a big red flag for you about your lead co-conspirator. Pay attention!

I don't expect him to survive, but I'm hoping he goes out with some semblance of honour. Maybe he'll die pushing back when he realises his noble revolution is turning into one big war crime...

I don't think there is anywhere left for Zarek to go so I'm guessing he dies in the next episode. But how? One plausible scenario is that Zarek is on the verge of doing something horrible, possibly threatening to nuke a civilian ship, and Gaeta decides to stop him by killing him. I don't know if Gaeta can survive this either, he'll certainly never serve as an officer on Galactica again, but he might try to redeem himself in some way before he goes.

People do have to die this time. Yes, humans killed humans on New Caprica, but that was driven by fear of losing their own life or a misguided belief they were doing the right thing or just having no other options. There were choices to be made this time. They aren’t trying to garner support from the fleet. The mutineers aren’t just taking hostages. They aren’t trying to use those hostages to try and negotiate. They are just gunning people down at random. This isn’t the Cylons doing, this is their own doing.

Absolutely.

And I think the fact that there was never 100% concrete evidence about exactly who was involved also helped them forget it. At the time it was more painful because you didn't know who you could trust, etc. But in the long run it allowed a kind of wilful ignorance to settle? But not this time.

I also agree with you that in some ways it's not enough to have them "conveniently" die in a firefight or kill each other to "save" the heroes from the task of choosing to execute or pardon them like happened with Cain.

I really wish I could phrase it better but...the story's gone to such a dark place with this mutiny, writing an 'easy out' by making them die in the middle of a pitched battle or by killing each other would feel dishonest somehow?

This is a little too smart for me right now because all I want to do is SHOUT ABOUT MY GIRLFRIEND KILLING PEOPLE AND BEING A BADASS.

But I like a lot of what you say here.

Definitely was not a fan of the "making dinner" jokes. Blegh.
And Caprica's ridiculous evening wear. (PONCHO?! SRSLY?)

I've never liked Racetrack and while she may be just as "right" as Lee and not as "into the circle" as Gaeta or Connor. She was going to let that marine shoot Lee. That's just wrong. I was very surprised this epsiode that we didn't have one of the longtime folks have second thoughts about turning against Adama/Tigh/Lee/Laura/Kara. I mean that no-name marine--yeah whatever.

I'm so glad Baltar is sick of the cult. Because so am I.

Well, at least Racetrack had the decency to look conflicted about it. Not that it would've saved Lee if Kara hadn't shown up being a badass, but at least it's something. She hasn't turned into a pod person, she's become swept up in something she believes is right, but is now being faced with the fact that some of the people on her side are kinda sketchy.

I really liked how the attempted summary execution of Lee was later paralleled by Kara trying to summarily execute Nowart. She's not so very different from Zarek, Connor, etc.

And Caprica's ridiculous evening wear. (PONCHO?! SRSLY?)

I might start to love the Ridiculous Poncho Evening Wear in the same way I love the ENTIRETY of Sine Qua Non. XD

I always liked Racetrack for reasons I'm not really sure of, maybe just because she's been around for so long, so it was a hard moment for me. Hence my spinning to make her notevil again! Although yeah, watching her watch the marine threaten to shoot Lee was...hard.

I'm so glad Baltar is sick of the cult. Because so am I.

AHAHAHAAAAAHAHA. I'm not sure why but I find that hilarious. I think it's because you put it so bluntly. But also so true.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: THANK YOU FOR H8ing on A/R!

IT IS NEVER A CHORE!

I want a bodycount. I want Gaeta, Zarek and at least the other major ringleaders like Connor to stand trial and die. And for it to be an empty, hollow experience for everyone involved.

Ditto. Except for the trial part. I want them to go out in a hail of Kara and Athena produced bullets. And then I will go on the internets and yell "THERE'S YOUR DEAD MEN, NOW SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY THE SERIES!"

Ditto. Except for the trial part. I want them to go out in a hail of Kara and Athena produced bullets. And then I will go on the internets and yell "THERE'S YOUR DEAD MEN, NOW SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY THE SERIES!"

ROFLOL!

Yes. Okay. This is also a scenario I can get on board with!

Oh and Lee/Kara: I just don't like her, but reading your comment, and the Wonder Twins iconage too, I accept the idea and think about Booth and Bones on Bones and how I would have liked Lee/Kara a lot more if they hadn't messed things up by making them romantically involved. Awesome friends works for me! (They could still have worked a jealousy angle with Anders and Dee with that rather than going with the all out... but alas, by gones)

Yeah, I agree on the Lee/Kara front. I like them both best with other people (as you well know, you mischiefous A/R shipper, you!)

At least we kind of also have the awesome friends uncomplicated by romance angle with Kara and Helo but we never see enough of them shooting up crap together.

Hooray for Wunder Twins!

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