beccatoria | TV Poll! I don't watch enough to know what's on!

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TV Poll! I don't watch enough to know what's on!

Okay so. When I started hating The X-Files, it was right around the time I fell for Farscape. When Farscape got axed BSG very kindly showed up to steal my heart. Now that BSG is over (and my heart is in tatters; nope, still not over the surreal anti-intellectual reactionary technophobic crap: after all the stuff it pulled and the wars fought in its name they should have kept the tech and thrown GOD into the sun) I find myself adrift.

My cunning plan was to jump on the Terminator train and ~~develop~~ wallow in an enormous crush on Agent Ellison and an intellectual crush on Weaver/Cameron/John Henry. However, it's looking increasingly and depressingly likely that it won't get renewed. *commences wailing*

And for real, I watch like, no television. Occasionally I'll catch an episode of House or Bones or something but other than that, my TV schedule consists pretty much exclusively of BSG, Terminator and, when it's on, Dexter. So I need advice on what to start watching next.

I know you can't force fannish love, but I can at least start, um, "seeing other shows," and finding out if there's a spark, right?

So, my personal ad! Sorta.

Basically I like science fiction/fantasy/magic realism/SOMETHING that means its not just...our normal, ordinary world. This makes me feel like a really huge geek, because I don't watch shows everyone tells me are amazing like The West Wing or The Wire because I'm like...blah. It's not crazy or magic or epic enough! Boo!

I love brilliant acting and interesting character arcs. I like narrative story arcs.

I also like shows that make me think. I like shows that try to talk about big, complicated issues, and I have a special weakness for techy cyborgy religious weirdness and moral relativism done well (i.e. NOT as an excuse for the hero to do reprehensible, selfish things just because it's "dark" which MUST make it "cool" and "more mature.")

I mean, I enjoy TV that doesn't make me think lots too; I do completely get that "I just want to have fun with it!" mentality. But I find it hard to be truly fannish about those shows because, well, I end up with nothing to say, or vid.

Similarly, I can love shows that are set completely within the bounds of the "real world" (Dexter and Breaking Bad are both ace) but similarly, it's hard for me to really connect on a total geek-out level.

I think the problem is that I'm a science fiction fan in the tradition of LeGuin or Ghost in the Shell. I want everything. I want all the big issues we face combined with world-/civilisation-spanning alien fascinating stuff that punches these issues out into an arena other than the one we're familiar with, and as such, allows us to examine these issues from new angles.

I guess what I want is intelligent science fiction, with a side-order of character-arc and extra epic.

Do any of you know where I might be able to find such a thing these days?

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Redacted.

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Do any of you know where I might be able to find such a thing these days?

Have you ever looked in the realm of anime?

(Serious question, nothing to do with sparklyboys.)

Sort of. I love some anime. I love Ghost in the Shell. Castle in the Sky is possibly the most beautiful movie in existence. I love a series called Martian Successor: Nadesico which may very well be one of my favourite TV series of all time, it's just beautiful and I seriously need to rewatch it (and had already been thinking that now might be the time to do so.)

On the flip side I think Neon Genesis Evangelion, once I got over the amazing and wonderful shock of animation being given serious treatment and allowed to tell a serious story, was an entirely overrated experiment in narrative disatisfaction.

My problems with anime generally fall to two issues, which are not unrelated.

Firstly, the levels of fan service and dodgy shit that goes on. I find the whole cutesy treatment of dirty old men and underage girls seriously squicky, and yes I know that's partly a cultural issue, but it's something I have trouble getting past. This extends into a lot of the tropes they employ with regards to characterising women - and also men. Anime employs short-hand cliches, and even visual cliches in its animation styles - like suddenly changing to superdeformed visual expressions to be "cute" or "upset" or whichever. It's something I find kind of irritating, although I can get past it for a good story.

Secondly, a lot of the anime that gets exported to the west is very...similar? Fake Science explanation for psychic powers, angsty teenagers, giant robots (sometimes) and then a big explosion at the end and something about nature.

Which isn't to say I don't like that kind of thing.

I think, to be honest, my biggest disappointment with anime is that it's full of stories I think I'd love told in a style I cannot stand.

As if every science fiction story were written in the style of Lovecraft, or Mills & Boon, or John Grisham, you know?

I'm sure there's stuff out there that's not like this, I just don't have the fortitude to find it. If you have any suggestions though, I'd be very open to them.

You have an awesome Luna icon! Hello, Luna!

I don't think I've watched enough anime to be systematic about a theory of 'Julia and anime'; I get your points about the tropes and annoying cutesy things. I've also never fallen into fannish love with one, though one came close once, and I've liked some a lot.

What actually sparked my comment, though, was that I was flashing on X and thought that might be something for you. More fantasy than science fiction, to be sure, but medium/style aside, the feel of it actually reminds me a bit of SW? It might not be your thing for a number of reasons, but it's a) pretty serious (I wouldn't swear this on my life, but off the top of my head I can't recall any cutesy chibi faces ever -- though there's one character who might have committed that, it's been a while), b) pretty epic, and c) pretty.

This is the trailer. No spoilers. If you don't know it yet and the visual style appeals, I would actually turn this into an official rec, based on... well, gut feeling mostly. I was never fannish about it, but it was interesting *and* gripping, and it might be your thing.

Pointless weighing in from me:

the feel of it actually reminds me a bit of SW

There's a lot of almost!"Star Wars" moments in CLAMP's work, isn't there? "Tsubasa" has a couple of moments worth of nice comparison too. I've never been a huge fan of "X" but respect really does deserve to be given to the ladies of CLAMP as they are amazingly talented and awesome.

Ahhhh...also: hi

beccatoria, sorry about your loss of "BSG". Also also: we watched the first episode of "Sarah Connor" recently and loved it so I'm going to pretend I didn't read your cancellation fears!

Edited 2009-04-07 19:13 (UTC)

I second the CLAMP love. And of course, you need to catch up on Terminator. SERIOUSLY. And while I hope it doesn't get cancelled, I kind of don't mind if it does because the ending was AWESOME. Lots of questions and lots of room for becca-fic!

ETA: I'd actually recommend the CLAMP manga (there ought to be lots of translations now). I also will add Sanctuary, Crying Freeman and Bastard to the list. Turn off the TV and curl up by the fire place.

If you must watch TV, I'm going to try Dollhouse again. I have no intention of watching the episodes prior to 'The Awakening' because they were just bloody boring and took too long to get to the point, however, friends whose opinions I respect say that the show has improved with the expected turn of events. It's not perfect and it's not up to Firefly caliber, but it's better now.

Edited 2009-04-15 13:07 (UTC)

Oh, also. This is not a rec as such, because it was actually too fucking crazy for me, but if one can handle massive amounts of narrative crazy and is into world-building, Utena might be worth looking into. (It's also got a whole lot of skeezy sexual stuff going on, but I think that was a case of consciously skeevy, not OMGcute!1!)

Butting in here. I just commented on your latest story and surfed around your journal after that. : )

If style is your problem with a lot of anime, I'd recommend Serial Experiments Lain and Haibane Renmei. They're both interesting sf/fantasy stories about big issues, and they're beautifully animated--kind of low-key, with none of the super-deformed-ness. The first one is set in modern-day Japan and is about Internet reality bleeding into ordinary reality. The other one starts with a girl falling from the sky, and then waking up in a new world, only she has wings. It's ultimately about sin and redemption, I would say. There's some interesting world-building, and it isn't as Christian as it sounds. Both of these are only thirteen episodes long.

I also like Princess Tutu very much. It's a fairy-tale where the story-teller is behind the scenes orchestrating it all, and the characters in the story try to get free. There is a also a lot of ballet dancing, and all of the music is classical ballet music. I love the animation in this one, too, but it occasionally goes into super-deformed territory and cuteness. This one has 26 episodes.

I have currently fallen rather hard for "Castle", a show about a crime writer and the detective he annoys (NATHAN FILLION!), and Legend of the Seeker (which is pretty much Xena after it grew up and went to school and met Lord of the Rings and learned how to do stuff without looking stupid), but I've heard that if you've read the Goodkind books, it can be annoying.

AVATAR! (I know, it's fake!anime, but it's still REALLY GOOD).

Huh - I hadn't heard of Castle but I may go read a blurb or two. What I know about Legend of the Seeker suggests to me it's less about like, about thinky issues and more about the gorgeous epicness, but I can definitely get on board with that. I haven't read the Goodkind books so that wouldn't annoy me either. I will probably check it out - thanks.

I'm not so hot on Avatar - I have actually seen a little of it and didn't love it. Plus Kev actively hates it and while that wouldn't stop me from watching it if I wanted to, he would tease me mercilessly. ;)

Though actually the fake!anime thing is in its favour since that means that it's, well, serious animated stuff (which I like) but, I believe, without a lot of the issues that annoy me about anime, like, well, dodgy old men perving at underage girls?

I am kind of spent as far as epic TV is concerned. Now that BSG is over, I'm pretty much planning on watching sports and HGTV until/unless something else strikes me. I pretty much went from Buffy to Roswell to The 4400 to BSG, and like you, nothing has bitten me to replace BSG. I have no plans to touch Sarah Connor or Dollhouse with a 10 foot pole.

However, I do have one show that, though I'm not "fannish" over, I do think does a lot of things very similar to some of the Sci Fi shows I've loved, and that is Mad Men. I am surprised how alien the world of 1962 feels. And it absolutely is addressing issues of politics, religion, identity, feminism, racism and technology, and is set right at the time when all of those issues were coming to a head in our society, and plays them to the hilt. And the beauty is, because of the historical setting, you can see all the ironies that are about to hit these people four square.

Another show I'd recommend, if you haven't seen it is Avatar the Last Airbender. It's completed its run and is out on DVD, and is rerun regularly on Nickolodian. It's just a little cartoon but it was a very well told story with some great characters and fantastic world building. It's much lighter viewing than BSG, which makes it kind of a relief.

I'm really looking forward to Redactica.

Bah! I hate sports! :p

I understand not wanting to jump into something else epic, but I kind of...don't think I'd know what to do with myself if I didn't have something to geek over. Probably I'd have to actually start undertaking autonomous creative pursuits! THE SHOCK COULD KILL ME! ;)

I've heard good things about Mad Men. I may check it out, though I think, like you, however much I loved it, I wouldn't be "fannish" over it? Like Dexter - I love that show. I think it's fantastically put together and really interesting, but I have no desire to vid it or meta it or anything.

Whenever it eventually gets finished (hopefully before we all get old and grey - no actually I'm tentatively hopeful it'll be out in a month or two) I hope Redactica entertains. I'm trying to work out a K/S easter egg for the coda. ;)

HEE. I'll be looking forward to that coda.

I'm sure I'll work my way back into epic TV at some point. I've been thinking of downloading True Blood to see if that is as good as people say. And maybe The Tudors.

Right now, I enjoyed Leverage very much, and am currently delighted to have My Boys on my DVR. (But, umm, that's about a sports crazy woman in Chicago, how could I ever identify! ;)

And there are two BBC shows, Primeval (which is light, entertaining no-brain-necessary fluff about British scientist chasing dinosaurs through time warps in modern day London :giggle: ) and maybe Being Human about a ghost, werewolf and vampire living together which I'll probably check out when it comes on.

Honestly, the only think I know of that would fit the bill, really, is TSCC. Though if there are shows out there that would and I don't know about them, I'm interested. I'm going to be SO UPSET ~~when~~ if they cancel it. *tries to think positively*

Though I must confess, I'm enjoying the hell out of Star Trek: DS9. It's Trek, certainly, so is often a little too easy, a little too dorky, a little too, well, Trek. And the acting is pretty hit and miss. But more than any of the other Trek series, it plays with long plot arcs, religion, moral relativism, genocide and military occupation, complicated and intriguing interpersonal relationships, etc. I find it's the perfect combination of something that makes me think yet which is not so heavy that it threatens to destroy my soul.

Yeah, sadly I think TSCC is the only epic issuey piece of scifi currently on air. :(

I love DS9 and have been meaning to restart my rewatch of it for ages. (I watched half of season one, which was the season I remembered least about, about a year ago but got interrupted by Korea and never went back to it). I agree that the acting, and occasionally the execution of the plots, as well as a lot of the cinematography is hit and miss, but I do love it for its ambition; for its attempts to break out of the Trek-stranglehold and for the ways it succeeded in doing so.

It certainly fits into the category of epic thinky scifi, although I think I tend to remember the thinky bits more than the majority of the standalone episodes, like the way The X-Files gets reduced down to its mythology when actually that was a tiny fraction of what got aired.

But anyway, yes, I have already seen like...85% of that show and I do really like it. Alas, I have only one DS9 icon: I promise I am using it because it has OMGSISKO not because I am pissed off. ;)

I was trying to remember as I posted whether you had seen DS9, but for some reason I was thinking of you as not a Trek person. Anyway! Rewatching is always an option, I suppose. It is such a shame that they're about to go cancel the only really meaty sci fi show on television! *grumbles*

And heh, my Sisko icon is less angry Sisko and more frustrated Sisko. :)

If you want some fun, escapist fair, I could recommend Castle and Leverage, but I don't know of anything but TSCC that fits what you are most interested in watching. Stargate has a few of the aspects you are looking for, but often times the show would approach a big issue and then run from it or push a reset button. It's a show you really just need to watch for the characters.

Okay, cool - that's the second time Castle's been recommended to me so I think I should at least read a little more about it. I think the problem is that I'm doing okay for escapist faire; I'm more interested in something big and plotty and thinky, but perhaps there's just nothing out there at the moment that satisfies my incredibly specific and picky tastes. :(

In the meantime, I will just be entertained by your icon, which never gets old... ;)

Eeee Redactica Update! I CAN'T WAIT!!

*sigh* I don't watch any other tv, currently. :( I was also planning on catching up with TSCC. I've heard very, very, very mixed reviews of Dollhouse, as you probably have too. Hmm... in terms of old shows, have you seen Babylon 5? It's what I think of when I think Epic Sci-Fi, and has probably spoiled me for all other TV when it comes to narrative arc. Carnivale is also pretty amazing, especially in the first season.

Yay! I hope you enjoy it when I finally finish it. I'm hoping to work in a "LOOK SAM WOKE UP!" easter egg into the tripped out final sequence.

TSCC is definitely worth catching up with. I've enjoyed it since season one but the last three or four episodes of season two have started getting really interesting and stuff is finally happening after...forever of going, "Okay this is awesome, show, but LET SOMETHING HAPPEN ALREADY."

I watched the Dollhouse pilot and was supremely unimpressed so basically barring everyone on the internet recanting and telling me that it's somehow become more awesome than pie, I will not be touching it again with a ten foot pole.

And yes! I love Babylon 5! I watched it well after it originally aired (because I was younger and it aired like...really late at night here a lot of the time) but it's just awesome. And yes, is exactly what I love about big, epic narrative arcs and characters and worlds and SPACE and stuff. Really all it was missing was killer robots. I was never incredibly fannish about it, mainly because I watched it well after it aired, I think.

But it'll always be special cus me and my husband and our best friend watched it when we were all living together over a period of four or five months, just every couple of days we'd marathon a few episodes and chat about it and stuff. Which was awesome for me because B5 is literally the only "serious stuff" show either Kev or Addy will watch and engage with on that level. (Which in itself is weird; our main hobby is roleplaying games - like D&D - and in that context, the stories we tell are always UBER serious and thinky and epic and stuff, but on TV? They just want to watch men in lizard suits fight Captain Kirk. *sigh*)

Um, anyway, *adds Carnivale to the potential list* Thanks for giving me a chance to remember that. ;)

Also curses at television for not having anything more awesome on right now.

Yay! I hope you enjoy it when I finally finish it. I'm hoping to work in a "LOOK SAM WOKE UP!" easter egg into the tripped out final sequence.

:bounce: I think I'll just set any and all future fic I write in Becca'verse canon, okay? :D

And yes! I love Babylon 5! I watched it well after it originally aired (because I was younger and it aired like...really late at night here a lot of the time) but it's just awesome. And yes, is exactly what I love about big, epic narrative arcs and characters and worlds and SPACE and stuff. Really all it was missing was killer robots. I was never incredibly fannish about it, mainly because I watched it well after it aired, I think.

I remember it aired here at like, 3am on a Saturday on some random channel. My parents were pretty dubious about what I could possibly be watching at that hour. ;) I'm sure would have been fannish about it if I'd been a bit older and known about such things.

But it'll always be special cus me and my husband and our best friend watched it when we were all living together over a period of four or five months, just every couple of days we'd marathon a few episodes and chat about it and stuff.

Aw, that sounds like so much fun. I'm jealous! It's nice when RL people share your obsessions.

I'm slightly disconcerted to say that Carnivale was much better during the first season when Ron was involved with it. o.0 Of course, there is a blonde woman who's married and literally a whore (and cheats on her husband for fun too), and he can't bring himself to leave her and it's all very tragic. I mean, I thought it was great at the time, but now I'm retroactively offended. ;)

:bounce: I think I'll just set any and all future fic I write in Becca'verse canon, okay? :D

I am very, very okay with this notion. In fact I move we name it something less proprietary, like the guess-what-RDM-we're-mutinying-verse so that it can belong to everyone! :p

I'm sure would have been fannish about it if I'd been a bit older and known about such things.

I feel that way about DS9 and Roswell!

I'm slightly disconcerted to say that Carnivale was much better during the first season when Ron was involved with it. o.0 Of course, there is a blonde woman who's married and literally a whore (and cheats on her husband for fun too), and he can't bring himself to leave her and it's all very tragic. I mean, I thought it was great at the time, but now I'm retroactively offended. ;)

Hee! Yeah, it's weird how stuff goes from being progressive to regressive when you think you know too much about the potential motivations behind it. But, I'll watch before I judge on that; in the context of the show it sounds like it would probably work.

I still...I'm not shocked that the RDM season is good. RDM gave us three and a half excellent seasons of BSG. I think the guy has really good ideas. I liked a lot of what he did with DS9. It's still a little too trekky for me, but the parts of it that aren't, I think, are down to him.

I think

grrl_unscripted summed it up well for me when she said she thought that RDM was really good at asking questions, but perhaps not so good at answering them?

Ugh, I don't know. It's so frustrating. I want to just say, "IDIOT!" and never watch anything by him again, but at the same time, he like...made the entire show that I love. I'm just SO CONFUSED.

BUFFY ANGEL FIREFLY

(Seriously, this might be a dumb question, but have you actually watched these?)

In terms of shows that are actually still on the air, bar T:TSCC... yeah, I got nothin'.

Yep, Buffy and Angel, definitely two of the best tv shows ever! \o/

I've seen all of Firefly and I love it. I even have the comics! It's just awesome and a crying shame it got cancelled.

For the others, well, I adored the first season of Angel and large parts of the second. It was just gorgeous. I loved the darker tone and it's one of the few shows I think worked best with a lot of standalone episodes and an arc in the background. I have to be honest, I didn't like the third season, and stopped watching halfway through it. I heard stuff got back on track during the final season but I never watched it.

Essentially I feel like Buffy got darker as it went along, while Angel started off incredibly dark but slowly turned into Buffy with the epic storylines and stuff. I always... I'll always remember and mourn the quiet, serious, graphic-novel first season about Angel's personal quest to fulfill his personal destiny and help lost souls. I think it lost something fundamental to its awesome when it started going in the Buffy direction.

As to Buffy, I've seen...probably about a third of it including most of the major arc episodes? I do like it and I can see why people are crazy devoted to it, but I never connected with it the way a lot of people did. I couldn't really say why. I think perhaps it was that no single character ever made me fall in love with them until Anya and by then, I was watching other things?

I picked up the entire series of Carnivale on Amazon for just under $40 last week. The entire friggin' series. (Only two seasons, but still.) Highly recommended!

Though DS9 was mentioned already, I have to put in my two cents for Star Trek: the Next Generation, and probably Voyager as well. I feel as though DS9 eventually got too bogged down with itself, the same affliction I feel dragged down Babylon 5 (unsurprisingly). The premise of the starship-based ones is "let's run into weird shit and see how we react with human grace and superego", as opposed to, "o shit o shit CARDASSIANS". There were so many episodes of TNG that reflected important literary themes like racial prejudice, sexual minorities, political duty, personal honor, parenting and relationship difficulties, identity crisis, etc. Same with Voyager, except weirder, and then they fell into the self-referential trap around Season 5.

In terms of stuff that's currently on, I couldn't tell you. The only thing I watch is Heroes, which only partially fits your bill, and probably not enough.

Yeah, I may have to check out Carnivale. I was holding off because a) I heard it was never really finished and got really weird in season two (though that's not necessarily a bad thing) and b) I'm a little Ron Moore-shy at the moment. Although, that said, I do love DS9. So.

I have seen a whole load of Trek, though. Not like...all of it but certainly a lot of TNG and VOY episodes. DS9 is definitely still my favourite though. Perhaps it overreached or became preachy or simply silly at times, but I did love that it was in one place and as such there was more a sense of arc and consequence even when the story arcs weren't prominent than there was in the ship-based ones. I get that there's a sense of a new episode/issue every week but for me that usually ends up feeling like a lack of follow-through. TNG is fantastically constructed serial television in a lot of ways, but, like Quantum Leap, the episodic nature of it was always somewhat alienating to me.

I used to watch Heroes. I LOVE the first season; it's just a great piece of television. But by the end of season two I wasn't enjoying it so much and when the start of season three turned HIRO my ALLTIME FAVOURITE into a whiny jerk I decided to call it quits for my sanity. I'm jealous of people who still love it though; it was awesome for a while.

*uses last remaining Heroes icon*

I didn't know you were looking for recs for shows no longer on air. I'd also add to the chorus singing Carnivale's praises. There are no highly evolved robots, but there is destiny and prophecy and religious weirdness and people coming back from the dead. And while the show loses focus and goes off in some perplexing directions in Season 2 that is AFTER Ron left the show. Yes, the stronger, more satisfying season was the one he oversaw. And I don't want to give away any spoilers for others who haven't seen the series yet and wish to, but Ron actually does something on 'Carnivale' that we wished he had done on BSG. I actually want to do a rewatch because there are a lot of themes Ron developed in 'Carnivale' and carried over to BSG and I'd like to compare and contrast the two.

Yes, the stronger, more satisfying season was the one he oversaw.

I was just saying the same thing. I'm as surprised as anyone!

but Ron actually does something on 'Carnivale' that we wished he had done on BSG.

Hmm!

Well I was looking for current shows, yes, but I'm also not averse to older shows. I can deal with a lack of highly evolved robots!

I'm intrigued by your comments on what RDM did, though. Did he kill a character played by EJO? DID HE?! :p

HEE! I know you are a spoiler whore so I can tell you, anyone else reading this who hasn't seen the series yet LOOK AWAY NOW!!!

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Ben (Nick Stahl), the young man who is key to the entire series, is attracted to and has a brief encounter with the much, much older Ruthie (Adrienne Barbeau). Ron was willing to go there on 'Carnivale', but not on BSG. WHY???

1) *falls to knees shaking fists in air* WHYYYYYYYY, RON, WHYYYYYY?!

2) OMG Adrienne Barbeau is in this?! Why did no one tell me?! Now I have to watch it!

(Short version: Adrienne Barbeau is the subject of a long and convoluted in-joke between me, Kev, and our friend Adrian who has a surname that rhymes with Barbeau involving Sealab 2021 and the Adrienne Barbeaubot who has laser eyes and eats tyres for liquorice. Therefore, Adrienne Barbeau automatically makes things awesome.)

Hello!

Am nearly mortally wounded by the near-certain termination of TSCC (and whatever remains of Agent Ellison) and am so disgusted that I find it difficult to recommend anything, lest it get immediately cancelled and I'll be to blame.

However, on that note.........I'm going to pitch Supernatural to you *dodges tomatoes* Admittedly there's a pretty big ick factor (especially with the first season stand alones) but the on-going story arc is so powerful, the artistic values so high, the acting, directing, and effects so awesome that in the end I conquered my squeamishness and am now hooked. There's even lots of humor, not quite as black as Dexter's, but much appreciated all the same.

Someone up above rec'd Mad Men and I heartily agree - some people say it takes time to warm up to it, but I've been in love since the beginning. Weirdly intriguing.

So that's it. Except now, more than ever, LOST. A show that never dumbs down and just keeps getting better, year after year.

the thing is, there just hasn't been very much good sci fi in the whole of television history. you've watched it all.

I was unimpressed with Carnivale, but it probably has enough of your kinks to hold your interest. otherwise, maybe Deadwood? fantastically seductive show, and at least escapist if not sci fi.

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TV Poll! I don't watch enough to know what's on!

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