beccatoria (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
beccatoria) wrote2006-11-05 04:40 pm
beccatoria) wrote2006-11-05 04:40 pm
Entry tags:
BSG: Torn
A day late because yesterday I was at an awesome wedding!
I loved a lot about this episode and am having deep thinky-thoughts about the whole awesome basestar subplot. I can't articulate them yet which is good because I have a whole post's worth of rant about Starbuck and Adama's way of dealing with her and why it was painfully painful to watch.
Adama actually did something dynamic and interesting this episode and I'm grateful for that, because it's been a while since he did something in a slightly unexpected way.
That said, I can't stand his method. It was painful to watch and I wanted to...hit him, I think. What he did to Kara was horrible to watch.
Now there are a couple of things that need to be said. Kara's totally off the rails, she's behaving in a totally unacceptable and dangerous way. She's terrifying and insane and needs a very heavy handed intervention to make her realise just how despicable she's become lately. If you don't believe I think this, check my past episode reactions. She's being ugly right now.
But, Adama, you don't get to deal with her like this without earning my contempt.
He neded to do something to maintain order and he needed to give Kara a wakeup call. But remember I've had this huge thing over the last few weeks that Kara needs a parent? That she needs someone who will love her and be tough with her while she's throwing her violent temper tantrum because she's six?
Well look, she just got exactly what I wanted for her in the most SCREWED UP WAY IMAGINABLE!
Adama responds to her with verbal and physical abuse. Who was the last person to control her by hitting her, making her believe she's a "cancer" and then making her feel completely unworthy of being loved? Oh yes, her mother.
(Aside: Does Adama even know about her mother? Possibly not. Maybe he doesn't quite understand what he's doing. Doesn't change the effect though.)
Let's talk about Anders for a second. I already said I had some issues with some of his choices (Kill Ellen! Don't kill Gaeta! Watch as I leave without using my vote to save him!) but I basically find the character interesting and found his response to Kara's demands that he leave refreshing. To see him not fight, to let her know just how unappealing she was by returning the dog tags without stooping to pettiness. Yeah that was interesting. And I figured, as her husband, he could step up and act as her parent-figure? Counsellor? Whichever, but it wasn't his responsibility. He does get to walk away and wait until she sorts it out.
You know what, Adama doesn't. Because he's her dad. And you know, arguements that no, he's her military commander, or, he's not really her dad, don't fly. Because he encouraged her to think of him as a parent. He told her that he thought of her as a daughter, but I never heard her tell him she thought of him as a father (though she clearly did). So yeah he encouraged this if he didn't outright instigate it. He shouldn't make those statements if he doesn't mean them.
Maybe we're seeing what happens when you try to have relationships like this within a military command structure (interesting implications for the obviously relaxed frat regs). I'm willing to accept that. But it doesn't get around the fact that Adama actively encouraged Starbuck to think of him as a parent. And she did.
And now Adama who she has always respected has treated her exactly the way her mom used to. That's going to reinforce everything Leoben said - that she wants to believe it's her fault, that she's the problem, that she's worthless.
"You were like a daughter to me. No more." What, because she's screwed up because she probably has post-traumatic stress disorder? Yeah, dude, you DO need to parent her, and you DO need to tell her how horrifically ugly she's become. But what you don't need to do is disown her because you've got a new surrogate daughter in Athena. You don't get to make threats like that because you're mad. You don't get to pretend to be someone's dad only when it's easy.
I think the problem is, Adama's a great commander, but a terrible father. Because he can be vicious towards his children. (Note: though striking a subordinate officer isn't great conduct either).
The thing is, as we can see by Kara's later actions, what he does helps her get her shit together.
Here's why:
What he did was start up the pattern again. He took on the role of Kara's mother, meaning Kara could slip back into her old personality. The one where she sublimates any pain and keeps everyone far, far away and never looses control unless she chooses to (which she does, see Tigh in the mini series, to keep up her swaggering image). That's why Flesh & Bone was so fascinating, that iron-tight control was at the forefront.
Adama really did make Starbuck feel terrible and make her want to do better, by tapping into all the "I'm unworthy of being loved, but I'll try anyway because everyone needs a parent," crap that her mom left her with.
She'll do okay for a while, I'm thinking. Because Adama bitchslapped her back to her familiar comfort zone, but all she's done is shove everything back inside.
Here's where things get totally frakked. What New Caprica did to Starbuck was a) leave her so confused and raw that it destroyed her sense of the familiar and her coping mechanisms and all the feelings were just...there and she didn't know how to cope with them. So she acted out like a kid. But b) for the first time, here's something crap that happened to her that wasn't her fault. That clearly couldn't be attributed to her and that Tigh and the Circle were only too happy to provide scapegoats for. It's juvenile and it's immature in terms of her response (because she's emotionally immature), but realising that crappy things happened to her for reasons that weren't her fault is an incredibly important thing for Kara to eventually grok. I worry that that's just been completely undermined as the person she had the most love for and faith in just confirmed all of her worst fears in a moment of anger and vindictiveness.
In a frakked up way, she was growing emotionally when she was treating everyone else like crap. Or at least, she had the potential to because she hadn't locked everything up again yet. She was struggling to understand, "None of this was my fault," with the unfortunate side-effect of treating everyone else like it was theirs. Now she's back to, "I'm a screw-up and it's my fault," and that's something she knows how to deal with very well.
I wonder about her reunion with Kacey at the end. I loved it because I thought that the kid had been Deus Ex Machina'd away. But it did make me realise that Starbuck has successfully alienated everyone she once considered family (with the possible exception of Helo, but he wasn't interacting with her here either so I can't tell). Everyone. There literally is no one who'd come hug her if she was a ball of goo on the floor. (Yup, did that to herself, but not the point of this paragraph). Kacey's the new Anders. She's the only one who's going to look at Kara and smile and see her as someone good and jump at her with a hug.
What Kara needs most is a parent who offers actual unconditional love. What she's got is a two year old friend, who seems to be doing that in her dad's absence.
Sorry this is long. I know that I'm probably reading too much into it. I can't help it. It's what grabbed me. That scene, the voice in my head was, "God, don't hit her, just don't hit - ...right."
None of this is intended to excuse the fact that Kara almost murdered a man and didn't care if he was innocent or guilty. None of this excuses the fact that she's turning into a monster. None of this is supposed to be an arguement for childhood abuse absolving you of all further crimes. But it might be why you commit some of them. It's the arguement from that film, The Cell, that I found really interesting. Does childhood abuse excuse you from attrocities? No. But it might be why and it can't be ignored if you want to make someone whole again.
And in the context of Kara as a character - if we look at her and what she needs to be whole again - her childhood abuse is clearly the root of part of her behaviour. Leoben deliberately drew on it, as he has since he first met her.
It's not an excuse. It's a reason. And it's the reason that having her father who's opinion she trusts, behave like her mother who abused her, can never, ever yield permanently positive results. It just can't. I'll weep if it does. It's so fucked.
I know there's a lot of people who dislike the childhood abuse line for Kara. It is so often a telegraphed excuse on TV. Oh, they were abused! Don't hate them! But here...they're showing her so ugly and damaged because of it. I respect that. This shit does damage people. Some people, it makes into bad people.
Adama, start acting like a real dad or apologise for telling her you thought of her as a daughter.
That's all, folks!
I loved a lot about this episode and am having deep thinky-thoughts about the whole awesome basestar subplot. I can't articulate them yet which is good because I have a whole post's worth of rant about Starbuck and Adama's way of dealing with her and why it was painfully painful to watch.
Adama actually did something dynamic and interesting this episode and I'm grateful for that, because it's been a while since he did something in a slightly unexpected way.
That said, I can't stand his method. It was painful to watch and I wanted to...hit him, I think. What he did to Kara was horrible to watch.
Now there are a couple of things that need to be said. Kara's totally off the rails, she's behaving in a totally unacceptable and dangerous way. She's terrifying and insane and needs a very heavy handed intervention to make her realise just how despicable she's become lately. If you don't believe I think this, check my past episode reactions. She's being ugly right now.
But, Adama, you don't get to deal with her like this without earning my contempt.
He neded to do something to maintain order and he needed to give Kara a wakeup call. But remember I've had this huge thing over the last few weeks that Kara needs a parent? That she needs someone who will love her and be tough with her while she's throwing her violent temper tantrum because she's six?
Well look, she just got exactly what I wanted for her in the most SCREWED UP WAY IMAGINABLE!
Adama responds to her with verbal and physical abuse. Who was the last person to control her by hitting her, making her believe she's a "cancer" and then making her feel completely unworthy of being loved? Oh yes, her mother.
(Aside: Does Adama even know about her mother? Possibly not. Maybe he doesn't quite understand what he's doing. Doesn't change the effect though.)
Let's talk about Anders for a second. I already said I had some issues with some of his choices (Kill Ellen! Don't kill Gaeta! Watch as I leave without using my vote to save him!) but I basically find the character interesting and found his response to Kara's demands that he leave refreshing. To see him not fight, to let her know just how unappealing she was by returning the dog tags without stooping to pettiness. Yeah that was interesting. And I figured, as her husband, he could step up and act as her parent-figure? Counsellor? Whichever, but it wasn't his responsibility. He does get to walk away and wait until she sorts it out.
You know what, Adama doesn't. Because he's her dad. And you know, arguements that no, he's her military commander, or, he's not really her dad, don't fly. Because he encouraged her to think of him as a parent. He told her that he thought of her as a daughter, but I never heard her tell him she thought of him as a father (though she clearly did). So yeah he encouraged this if he didn't outright instigate it. He shouldn't make those statements if he doesn't mean them.
Maybe we're seeing what happens when you try to have relationships like this within a military command structure (interesting implications for the obviously relaxed frat regs). I'm willing to accept that. But it doesn't get around the fact that Adama actively encouraged Starbuck to think of him as a parent. And she did.
And now Adama who she has always respected has treated her exactly the way her mom used to. That's going to reinforce everything Leoben said - that she wants to believe it's her fault, that she's the problem, that she's worthless.
"You were like a daughter to me. No more." What, because she's screwed up because she probably has post-traumatic stress disorder? Yeah, dude, you DO need to parent her, and you DO need to tell her how horrifically ugly she's become. But what you don't need to do is disown her because you've got a new surrogate daughter in Athena. You don't get to make threats like that because you're mad. You don't get to pretend to be someone's dad only when it's easy.
I think the problem is, Adama's a great commander, but a terrible father. Because he can be vicious towards his children. (Note: though striking a subordinate officer isn't great conduct either).
The thing is, as we can see by Kara's later actions, what he does helps her get her shit together.
Here's why:
What he did was start up the pattern again. He took on the role of Kara's mother, meaning Kara could slip back into her old personality. The one where she sublimates any pain and keeps everyone far, far away and never looses control unless she chooses to (which she does, see Tigh in the mini series, to keep up her swaggering image). That's why Flesh & Bone was so fascinating, that iron-tight control was at the forefront.
Adama really did make Starbuck feel terrible and make her want to do better, by tapping into all the "I'm unworthy of being loved, but I'll try anyway because everyone needs a parent," crap that her mom left her with.
She'll do okay for a while, I'm thinking. Because Adama bitchslapped her back to her familiar comfort zone, but all she's done is shove everything back inside.
Here's where things get totally frakked. What New Caprica did to Starbuck was a) leave her so confused and raw that it destroyed her sense of the familiar and her coping mechanisms and all the feelings were just...there and she didn't know how to cope with them. So she acted out like a kid. But b) for the first time, here's something crap that happened to her that wasn't her fault. That clearly couldn't be attributed to her and that Tigh and the Circle were only too happy to provide scapegoats for. It's juvenile and it's immature in terms of her response (because she's emotionally immature), but realising that crappy things happened to her for reasons that weren't her fault is an incredibly important thing for Kara to eventually grok. I worry that that's just been completely undermined as the person she had the most love for and faith in just confirmed all of her worst fears in a moment of anger and vindictiveness.
In a frakked up way, she was growing emotionally when she was treating everyone else like crap. Or at least, she had the potential to because she hadn't locked everything up again yet. She was struggling to understand, "None of this was my fault," with the unfortunate side-effect of treating everyone else like it was theirs. Now she's back to, "I'm a screw-up and it's my fault," and that's something she knows how to deal with very well.
I wonder about her reunion with Kacey at the end. I loved it because I thought that the kid had been Deus Ex Machina'd away. But it did make me realise that Starbuck has successfully alienated everyone she once considered family (with the possible exception of Helo, but he wasn't interacting with her here either so I can't tell). Everyone. There literally is no one who'd come hug her if she was a ball of goo on the floor. (Yup, did that to herself, but not the point of this paragraph). Kacey's the new Anders. She's the only one who's going to look at Kara and smile and see her as someone good and jump at her with a hug.
What Kara needs most is a parent who offers actual unconditional love. What she's got is a two year old friend, who seems to be doing that in her dad's absence.
Sorry this is long. I know that I'm probably reading too much into it. I can't help it. It's what grabbed me. That scene, the voice in my head was, "God, don't hit her, just don't hit - ...right."
None of this is intended to excuse the fact that Kara almost murdered a man and didn't care if he was innocent or guilty. None of this excuses the fact that she's turning into a monster. None of this is supposed to be an arguement for childhood abuse absolving you of all further crimes. But it might be why you commit some of them. It's the arguement from that film, The Cell, that I found really interesting. Does childhood abuse excuse you from attrocities? No. But it might be why and it can't be ignored if you want to make someone whole again.
And in the context of Kara as a character - if we look at her and what she needs to be whole again - her childhood abuse is clearly the root of part of her behaviour. Leoben deliberately drew on it, as he has since he first met her.
It's not an excuse. It's a reason. And it's the reason that having her father who's opinion she trusts, behave like her mother who abused her, can never, ever yield permanently positive results. It just can't. I'll weep if it does. It's so fucked.
I know there's a lot of people who dislike the childhood abuse line for Kara. It is so often a telegraphed excuse on TV. Oh, they were abused! Don't hate them! But here...they're showing her so ugly and damaged because of it. I respect that. This shit does damage people. Some people, it makes into bad people.
Adama, start acting like a real dad or apologise for telling her you thought of her as a daughter.
That's all, folks!
no subject
I don't think there's much of a fundamental difference between our opinions here because it's really the violence that totally shocked me too and like you say, it's Adama throwing an adult temper tantrum.
My main arguement is that that's what it should be shown as in future - an adult temper tantrum and not a noble nor productive way to deal with the situation.
I'm also worried for Starbuck because Adama's temper tantrum manifested in exactly the way that will hurt her most.
Our opinions do differ slightly on what their relationship is and should be. I think that it completely went both ways. We see that in Kara's absolute devastation when he turns her away in "You Can't Go Home Again," and in the personal way she took his lies in "Kobol's Last Gleaming." We see it again in the terror that grips her when she hears Adama's been shot and when she's willing to assassinate Cain simply because he asked her.
I completely agree that there comes a time when Starbuck needs to take responsibility for her shitty behaviour and begin acting like an adult or get removed from social company until she sorts herself the hell out. I'm all for Adama providing that - in a way that's not abusive or based in his own anger. As understandable as it may be, that's not a good way to handle things as either a father or a military commander. So let him give her a smack down without a) violence or b) threats of abandoning her.
Unfortunately, everything from here on out hinges, I think, on the point where our opinions diverge.
You believe that Kara never treated or considered him as a parent, but I believe that she did. Therefore I hold Adama to a higher standard of behaviour when dealing with either Kara or Lee than when dealing with other people because he is the parent, and also their commander which only reinforces that parent-child relationship in that way. That relationship priveliges him to an emotional attachment not present with other people he commands or even friends, and I think that forgetting that renders that relationship open to abuse.
(Hmm...interesting aside, does Adama's status as commanding officer in conjunction with father mean the dynamics between him and his child/ren are more stuck in a teenager-parent dynamic because of the authority he still wields over them?)
And yes, part of this also goes back to the fact that Kara's very damaged specifically in relation to parent-child dynamics (and she doesn't always treat Adama well, no, but I do always feel that she treats him like a rebellious daughter who's not sure how to quite trust that she's safe). It's not Adama's fault she's like this, and maybe it's too much to ask him to deal with, and heck, maybe he doesn't even know, but it's still a fact. And it means she's even worse equipped than usual to deal with this situation and that Adama's adult temper tantrum is going to cause more damage than usual too.
See how I beat you for length! :)
But to focus on the points where we agree - Adama's actions, like Kara's, were emotionally damaging and not laudable, even if they were understandable.