BSG: Torn

[beccatoria]

A day late because yesterday I was at an awesome wedding!

I loved a lot about this episode and am having deep thinky-thoughts about the whole awesome basestar subplot. I can't articulate them yet which is good because I have a whole post's worth of rant about Starbuck and Adama's way of dealing with her and why it was painfully painful to watch.


Adama actually did something dynamic and interesting this episode and I'm grateful for that, because it's been a while since he did something in a slightly unexpected way.

That said, I can't stand his method. It was painful to watch and I wanted to...hit him, I think. What he did to Kara was horrible to watch.

Now there are a couple of things that need to be said. Kara's totally off the rails, she's behaving in a totally unacceptable and dangerous way. She's terrifying and insane and needs a very heavy handed intervention to make her realise just how despicable she's become lately. If you don't believe I think this, check my past episode reactions. She's being ugly right now.

But, Adama, you don't get to deal with her like this without earning my contempt.

He neded to do something to maintain order and he needed to give Kara a wakeup call. But remember I've had this huge thing over the last few weeks that Kara needs a parent? That she needs someone who will love her and be tough with her while she's throwing her violent temper tantrum because she's six?

Well look, she just got exactly what I wanted for her in the most SCREWED UP WAY IMAGINABLE!

Adama responds to her with verbal and physical abuse. Who was the last person to control her by hitting her, making her believe she's a "cancer" and then making her feel completely unworthy of being loved? Oh yes, her mother.

(Aside: Does Adama even know about her mother? Possibly not. Maybe he doesn't quite understand what he's doing. Doesn't change the effect though.)

Let's talk about Anders for a second. I already said I had some issues with some of his choices (Kill Ellen! Don't kill Gaeta! Watch as I leave without using my vote to save him!) but I basically find the character interesting and found his response to Kara's demands that he leave refreshing. To see him not fight, to let her know just how unappealing she was by returning the dog tags without stooping to pettiness. Yeah that was interesting. And I figured, as her husband, he could step up and act as her parent-figure? Counsellor? Whichever, but it wasn't his responsibility. He does get to walk away and wait until she sorts it out.

You know what, Adama doesn't. Because he's her dad. And you know, arguements that no, he's her military commander, or, he's not really her dad, don't fly. Because he encouraged her to think of him as a parent. He told her that he thought of her as a daughter, but I never heard her tell him she thought of him as a father (though she clearly did). So yeah he encouraged this if he didn't outright instigate it. He shouldn't make those statements if he doesn't mean them.

Maybe we're seeing what happens when you try to have relationships like this within a military command structure (interesting implications for the obviously relaxed frat regs). I'm willing to accept that. But it doesn't get around the fact that Adama actively encouraged Starbuck to think of him as a parent. And she did.

And now Adama who she has always respected has treated her exactly the way her mom used to. That's going to reinforce everything Leoben said - that she wants to believe it's her fault, that she's the problem, that she's worthless.

"You were like a daughter to me. No more." What, because she's screwed up because she probably has post-traumatic stress disorder? Yeah, dude, you DO need to parent her, and you DO need to tell her how horrifically ugly she's become. But what you don't need to do is disown her because you've got a new surrogate daughter in Athena. You don't get to make threats like that because you're mad. You don't get to pretend to be someone's dad only when it's easy.

I think the problem is, Adama's a great commander, but a terrible father. Because he can be vicious towards his children. (Note: though striking a subordinate officer isn't great conduct either).

The thing is, as we can see by Kara's later actions, what he does helps her get her shit together.

Here's why:

What he did was start up the pattern again. He took on the role of Kara's mother, meaning Kara could slip back into her old personality. The one where she sublimates any pain and keeps everyone far, far away and never looses control unless she chooses to (which she does, see Tigh in the mini series, to keep up her swaggering image). That's why Flesh & Bone was so fascinating, that iron-tight control was at the forefront.

Adama really did make Starbuck feel terrible and make her want to do better, by tapping into all the "I'm unworthy of being loved, but I'll try anyway because everyone needs a parent," crap that her mom left her with.

She'll do okay for a while, I'm thinking. Because Adama bitchslapped her back to her familiar comfort zone, but all she's done is shove everything back inside.

Here's where things get totally frakked. What New Caprica did to Starbuck was a) leave her so confused and raw that it destroyed her sense of the familiar and her coping mechanisms and all the feelings were just...there and she didn't know how to cope with them. So she acted out like a kid. But b) for the first time, here's something crap that happened to her that wasn't her fault. That clearly couldn't be attributed to her and that Tigh and the Circle were only too happy to provide scapegoats for. It's juvenile and it's immature in terms of her response (because she's emotionally immature), but realising that crappy things happened to her for reasons that weren't her fault is an incredibly important thing for Kara to eventually grok. I worry that that's just been completely undermined as the person she had the most love for and faith in just confirmed all of her worst fears in a moment of anger and vindictiveness.

In a frakked up way, she was growing emotionally when she was treating everyone else like crap. Or at least, she had the potential to because she hadn't locked everything up again yet. She was struggling to understand, "None of this was my fault," with the unfortunate side-effect of treating everyone else like it was theirs. Now she's back to, "I'm a screw-up and it's my fault," and that's something she knows how to deal with very well.

I wonder about her reunion with Kacey at the end. I loved it because I thought that the kid had been Deus Ex Machina'd away. But it did make me realise that Starbuck has successfully alienated everyone she once considered family (with the possible exception of Helo, but he wasn't interacting with her here either so I can't tell). Everyone. There literally is no one who'd come hug her if she was a ball of goo on the floor. (Yup, did that to herself, but not the point of this paragraph). Kacey's the new Anders. She's the only one who's going to look at Kara and smile and see her as someone good and jump at her with a hug.

What Kara needs most is a parent who offers actual unconditional love. What she's got is a two year old friend, who seems to be doing that in her dad's absence.

Sorry this is long. I know that I'm probably reading too much into it. I can't help it. It's what grabbed me. That scene, the voice in my head was, "God, don't hit her, just don't hit - ...right."

None of this is intended to excuse the fact that Kara almost murdered a man and didn't care if he was innocent or guilty. None of this excuses the fact that she's turning into a monster. None of this is supposed to be an arguement for childhood abuse absolving you of all further crimes. But it might be why you commit some of them. It's the arguement from that film, The Cell, that I found really interesting. Does childhood abuse excuse you from attrocities? No. But it might be why and it can't be ignored if you want to make someone whole again.

And in the context of Kara as a character - if we look at her and what she needs to be whole again - her childhood abuse is clearly the root of part of her behaviour. Leoben deliberately drew on it, as he has since he first met her.

It's not an excuse. It's a reason. And it's the reason that having her father who's opinion she trusts, behave like her mother who abused her, can never, ever yield permanently positive results. It just can't. I'll weep if it does. It's so fucked.

I know there's a lot of people who dislike the childhood abuse line for Kara. It is so often a telegraphed excuse on TV. Oh, they were abused! Don't hate them! But here...they're showing her so ugly and damaged because of it. I respect that. This shit does damage people. Some people, it makes into bad people.

Adama, start acting like a real dad or apologise for telling her you thought of her as a daughter.


That's all, folks!

Comments

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

Who was the last person to control her by hitting her, making her believe she's a "cancer" and then making her feel completely unworthy of being loved? Oh yes, her mother.

oh, huh, i hadn't thought of that, but it totally makes sense. as does what you said about how starbuck knows how to react to that and that's why she pulls herself together. that was the missing link for me that i couldn't think of so far. how very screwed up, and yet excellent in terms of character development. let's hope ron moore knows that as well!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

let's hope ron moore knows that as well!

I'm usually pretty forgiving about stuff like this and give the writers/executive producers the benefit of the doubt, but seeing how other viewers reacted does have me worried, especially since I know sometimes the writers like having Adama be all stern and commanding and stuff. It strikes me as something that they might not have thought through.

I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Thanks for commenting!

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

yeah, indeed. i was hoping that the podcast would shed some light on this matter [i.e. if they consider kara's problems more or less resolved now or if this is just the first step], but then ron moore only blabbed on about how much eddie enjoyed his performance blah blah boring! i was very annoyed how, back after "the farm," there didn't seem to be any dealing with what happened there, and look at all we got with kasey and so on. that makes me hope that even if the issues seem to be fading into the background now, they will come back full force at a later point.

you're welcome! i always enjoy reading your post-ep commentary :).

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Gah, rough news about the podcast. Though I'm praying that EJO was enjoying his performance because of the darkness of it (after all, he insisted on doing a take where he kissed dead Sharon's corpse, didn't he?)...

that makes me hope that even if the issues seem to be fading into the background now, they will come back full force at a later point.

Good point, and yes. I will cling to this too. I mean, I do have a lot of faith in this show, it's just something about how this turn of events was presented has me...unbalanced.

[marenfic.livejournal.com]

I've really enjoyed your thoughts on Kara as an emotional six-year-old. She's incredibly emotionally immature and combine that with her experiences and the fact that she is a grown woman who has been trained to be a deadly weapon and. .. yeah, not a good combo. Kara is behaving in an ugly way, that while completely and totally understandable, is still unexcusably ugly.

I have a huge amount of empathy for Kara. She is my POV character. I want to get her in session, give her a hug and tell her I love her but also that she's behaving like a complete shit and she needs to work on getting her act together. And see, that's what Adama should be doing but instead he's perpetuating the cycle.

But, I think the problem is that Adama doesn't really think of her as a daughter-- okay, maybe the ugly step-child daughter who he sometimes loves when she's being really good and doing all her chores. Yet he continued, as you said, to encourage her to think of him as a father. So doing what he did was flat out cruel. It was wrong.

I'm really afraid that this will be treated in a very paternalistic, unquestioning, of course Adama did exactly the right thing kind of way. She needed a kick in the ass, he gave it to her, end of story. Except that no, not the end of the story by any stretch.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I want to get her in session, give her a hug and tell her I love her but also that she's behaving like a complete shit and she needs to work on getting her act together. And see, that's what Adama should be doing but instead he's perpetuating the cycle.

Yes! He needs to be her parent.

But, I think the problem is that Adama doesn't really think of her as a daughter

See, I think he does, but I think he has unrealistic expectations as a father. Or he's just sometimes a bad father. He takes things very personally and doesn't always respond maturely to "betrayal" which is really just rebellion or a difference of opinion that comes of becoming "your own person" as you grow older. So he really did think of her as a daughter but didn't have a clear idea of what adopting such a damaged person would entail.

I wonder if he didn't adopt Kara to replace his son and to get the military viper pilot child he always wanted? It strikes me that this went both ways and that he was projecting his need for a loyal child onto Kara. It's why I find it telling that this disavowal comes so close to his adoption of Athena. I mean, he forgave Kara for killing his son - yes, after getting mad, but even in the depths of that anger he didn't threaten to disown her.

Anyway, really long thoughts, but thanks for commenting - I love getting comments. :)

[marenfic.livejournal.com]

See, I think he does, but I think he has unrealistic expectations as a father. Or he's just sometimes a bad father.

Yeah, I get that too. I think where I'm drawing the line on wondering if he really thinks of her as a daughter is the contrast with how he interacted with Lee all the way back in Act of Contrition/Can't Go Home Again. He tells Lee that if it were him, he'd never leave, and we get hints of that throughout. Lee is his real child and although he's adopted Kara, she doesn't count quite as much. Which ok, now that I write it out that could completely be about being a bad father and playing favorites.

What gets me about this ep that you've commented on is that he's disowned Kara-- he doesn't say if you don't get your act together you're not a daughter to me, it's already a done deal. Now he loves "Athena".

It seems to boil down to the fact that Adama is a pretty lonely guy, and if you just stick by him on his big ship and keep good company, you too can be the temporary favored child.

Eh, I love thinking about this and bouncing ideas. So thanks :)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Lee is his real child and although he's adopted Kara, she doesn't count quite as much. Which ok, now that I write it out that could completely be about being a bad father and playing favorites.

To some degree I can even understand that, I mean she isn't his real kid and I'd feel pretty bad for Lee if he was in second place. But not a great combination with Kara's vulnerability and lack of parents. I'm not so certain that he wouldn't have left Lee. I felt that him telling Lee that (and really meaning the sentiment behind it) was one of the times he parented Lee well, by allaying his fears of being an unwanted son. But realistically? He'd have to leave eventually, and probably under similar circumstances to those that led to the decision to leave Kara.

It seems to boil down to the fact that Adama is a pretty lonely guy, and if you just stick by him on his big ship and keep good company, you too can be the temporary favored child.

Pretty much. Which is wonderfully fascinating character development for Adama (if it's intentional) but really hard news for Kara. I've said it a million times, but that kid needs a dad.

Eh, I love thinking about this and bouncing ideas. So thanks :)

Hey, me too, so no problem. :)

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

What you said. I *winced* when he called her a cancer.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I *winced* when he called her a cancer.

Yeah, me too. Though the hope that this is a deliberate callback to the Flesh & Bone episode is something that gives me hope Adama's behaviour is intentionally mimicking her mother's. (I hope to the gods that it isn't a callback with the intention of suggesting she's become what she always feared and her mother told her...)

[asta77.livejournal.com]

We touched on some of this on my LJ, but I'm glad you expanded on your ideas here. Your take on the Kara/Adama relationship is very interesting and it never dawned on me that he was, to a lesser extent, exhibiting behavior her mother did towards her. The one difference I could see is that I don't think Adama means to be cruel for the sake of cruelty and I'm not sure he's really aware of what he is doing. That's not me excusing his behavior, but there was no sadistic pleasure taken in his actions or words which I think may have been the case with her mother. I've also always wondered if Adama knows of the abuse that Kara endured by her mother. It's possible he would take a different approach if he knew the full story.

She was struggling to understand, "None of this was my fault," with the unfortunate side-effect of treating everyone else like it was theirs. Now she's back to, "I'm a screw-up and it's my fault," and that's something she knows how to deal with very well.


Excellent observation. And though it's bad for Kara and her personal growth, the show handled that subtle shift quite well.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

The one difference I could see is that I don't think Adama means to be cruel for the sake of cruelty and I'm not sure he's really aware of what he is doing. That's not me excusing his behavior, but there was no sadistic pleasure taken in his actions or words which I think may have been the case with her mother.

Absolutely agreed. Obviously this doesn't change how it affects Starbuck but it definitely makes the whole thing sadder and more tragic.

've also always wondered if Adama knows of the abuse that Kara endured by her mother. It's possible he would take a different approach if he knew the full story.

That's a very interesting question. I think he would do in some situations (going with the "he doesn't know" school of thought), but in this situation, I'm not so sure. Perhaps he would have stopped short of hitting her, but I got the impression his actions here were strongly rooted in his own perspective with Kara and Tigh as "the people betraying him" rather than individuals with issues in their own right. Adama can have very strong blinders on at times.

[beerbad.livejournal.com]

Obviously this doesn't change how it affects Starbuck but it definitely makes the whole thing sadder and more tragic.

This strongly reminds me of Karen Horney's theory that what's important for healthy development is the ways in which the child percieves the parent, not the other way around. A parent's good intentions aren't really worth a damn if the child doesn't feel like they are in a safe environment (emotionally and/or physically).

Horney is my favorite personality theorist! ;)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

A parent's good intentions aren't really worth a damn if the child doesn't feel like they are in a safe environment (emotionally and/or physically).

Very interesting! And I totally agree. Unfortunately this makes parenting officially the hardest job ever. But you know, I already knew that, which makes me so totally grateful for mine who I always knew loved me. Which is pretty awesome, really.

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

Here via asta77's recommendation. I really appreciate the way you connect Adama's current behavior to abusive patterns Kara probably recognizes from childhood. I myself hadn't gotten beyond feeling like "get over it, that's an order" is terribly inadequate for what she's been through. I think you're completely right that in the short term it gives her a recognizable and concrete dynamic to hold on to and respond to in familiar and comforting ways, but that it does absolutely nothing to actually address her pain. I think that's why I was so disappointed in Adama in this episode. He obviously had to address the surface behavior with both Tigh and Kara, because it was a problem, but not addressing the causes doesn't really solve anything in the long term, and among other things (failing them as friend and father figure), it's bad leadership.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I myself hadn't gotten beyond feeling like "get over it, that's an order" is terribly inadequate for what she's been through.

Yeah. When you get right down to it, there it is.

It really doesn't do anything to address the problem. At least with Tigh and his continuing downward spiral we're sure to see that. I hope that it's presented in a way that acknowledges Adama failed to help him when he saw he was totally fracked-up (not that I'm sure how to help him these days) rather than showing it as Tigh failing to accept Adama's "help". Not because I think that Adama needs to personally help everyone or that poor Tigh is blameless, but just because...yeah. That was a chance to intervene that went sailing out the airlock and the tragedy of that lost chance should be addressed.

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

Thank you for articulating so much of what bothered me about that scene. DWW said it well too, that Adama's handling of their tragedies was totally inadequate, and yes he's their superior office and they were being harmful, but even as a superior officer he handled it badly. It's terrible leadership, and I don't believe the show wants us to think that, which just annoys me further.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

and I don't believe the show wants us to think that, which just annoys me further.

Also what I fear...

[bionic.livejournal.com]

So I friended you because I'm a new BSG fan and I want to be one with the BSG community. But I can't read any of your posts yet because I'm still in the process of watching season 2. But yes, LOVE BSG!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well then I hope my S3 commentary doesn't disappoint when you finally get here!

The show lapses a bit in parts of S2, but not, in my opinion, for too long. :)

[fionn-a-bhair.livejournal.com]

(Here from galacticanews)

I hadn't been able to make up my mind on this scene for ages, though my analysis is basically the same as yours. My feeling is that it all depends on what they do next.

If Adama's smackdown of Starbuck is made to seem as 'exactly what she needed' and 'the thing that got her back on her feet' and the cure for her ills, I. Will. Throw. Things. If in a few episodes their relationship is back to being all loving and kind and Adama never has to pay a price for the things he said to her, I'll scream.

However, if they can work it so that Kara manages to put herself back together (and that is an act of will on her part, not his) temporarily at least, and then...those issues come back and bite everyone, but especially Adama, in the ass...then I can live with it.

As long as there are consequences, I can live with it, you know? Nothing he said seemed that out of character for Adama - but he better not get to be Kara's loving father after this - not without making some kind of reparation first.

There needs to be a payoff to that scene that isn't "proof that Adama is awesome."

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

There needs to be a payoff to that scene that isn't "proof that Adama is awesome."

Yes, this is pretty much exactly what I think. If there is, I'll be just...so totally floored from the awesomeness of such a dark development that's so subtle and ocmpletely in keeping with both of their characters.

If not, I'll be...horrified.

[ladycoreopsis.livejournal.com]

Hi there! You present some interesting perspectives on Kara I had never really thought about before. I think I come from the other side of the fence on this issue, however. Now, to begin with, I realize you don't respect Kara's recent behavior. But even if Kara is emotionally immature, she is expected to behave and function in society like an adult. There is a point in your life where you need to grow up and act like an adult, and I think Adama, albeit severely, was trying to bring this point home to her. That despite all the pain and suffering she's been through, everyone else has suffered losses and pain. But that's part of what makes us human, and as adults we need to find ways to cope or lean on the support of our friends and family to help us cope. Kara wasn't doing either.

I personally don't think that Adama was being deceptive to her about his fatherly relationship with her. What she was doing to his crew HURT him. He felt so betrayed by her actions that he, himself, went into an adult-style temper tantrum. The woman she had become from her experiences on NC no longer acted like the woman he had considered his daughter. She was destroying the morale of his crew and turning friends against each other. Not to mention that she basically admits to getting one of his sons killed and then hid the truth from him while he wholeheartedly loved her and accepted her into his heart as family. How much hurt can a man take and just swallow?

The way Adama has dealt with Starbuck in the past implies to me that he made room in his heart for her, but does she make room in her heart for him? It seems one-sided, you know? She only seems to hide things from him, and sometimes we need to cut ourselves loose from one-sided relationships that give us nothing in return. I think it's wrong to assume he'd love her unconditionally even if he says she was LIKE a daughter to him. When it comes down to it, unconditional love is emotionally taxing. He continued to put his heart out on the line for Kara and get burned for it. Ouch.

That all said, I don't respect that he hit her. The scene actually made my heart jump into my stomach--very similar to the feeling I get when my own daughter stumbles and smacks her head on something. I felt shocked, afraid, and upset (now there's some powerful acting for you!!). His reaction was an adult temper-tantrum and he should control his outrage better. But the whole disowning her thing--I just saw that as part of this tantrum and that he didn't really intend at the outset that it would become so ugly. People can say very ugly things in the heat of the moment when they are angry and hurt. I wouldn't be surprised if we see an episode in the near future where Adama apologizes for being so brutal. I don't think things will be all ok for them right away, though. I think she'll also be hurt and angry at him for saying such awful things to her(and should be!). I think there will be a long time of resentment between them even IF they both make amends. Look at all the time it took Lee and Adama to get chummy aagain, and their relationship still has conflicts.

But yeah, if it's all love and warm fuzzy bunnies between them in two episodes I'll barf. =)

[ladycoreopsis.livejournal.com]

PS. Am I a total dork for making such a long rebuttal to your insightful post, or what? =)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hey, I appreciate the thought and attention that so obviously went into your rebuttal. So thank you.

I don't think there's much of a fundamental difference between our opinions here because it's really the violence that totally shocked me too and like you say, it's Adama throwing an adult temper tantrum.

My main arguement is that that's what it should be shown as in future - an adult temper tantrum and not a noble nor productive way to deal with the situation.

I'm also worried for Starbuck because Adama's temper tantrum manifested in exactly the way that will hurt her most.

Our opinions do differ slightly on what their relationship is and should be. I think that it completely went both ways. We see that in Kara's absolute devastation when he turns her away in "You Can't Go Home Again," and in the personal way she took his lies in "Kobol's Last Gleaming." We see it again in the terror that grips her when she hears Adama's been shot and when she's willing to assassinate Cain simply because he asked her.

I completely agree that there comes a time when Starbuck needs to take responsibility for her shitty behaviour and begin acting like an adult or get removed from social company until she sorts herself the hell out. I'm all for Adama providing that - in a way that's not abusive or based in his own anger. As understandable as it may be, that's not a good way to handle things as either a father or a military commander. So let him give her a smack down without a) violence or b) threats of abandoning her.

Unfortunately, everything from here on out hinges, I think, on the point where our opinions diverge.

You believe that Kara never treated or considered him as a parent, but I believe that she did. Therefore I hold Adama to a higher standard of behaviour when dealing with either Kara or Lee than when dealing with other people because he is the parent, and also their commander which only reinforces that parent-child relationship in that way. That relationship priveliges him to an emotional attachment not present with other people he commands or even friends, and I think that forgetting that renders that relationship open to abuse.

(Hmm...interesting aside, does Adama's status as commanding officer in conjunction with father mean the dynamics between him and his child/ren are more stuck in a teenager-parent dynamic because of the authority he still wields over them?)

And yes, part of this also goes back to the fact that Kara's very damaged specifically in relation to parent-child dynamics (and she doesn't always treat Adama well, no, but I do always feel that she treats him like a rebellious daughter who's not sure how to quite trust that she's safe). It's not Adama's fault she's like this, and maybe it's too much to ask him to deal with, and heck, maybe he doesn't even know, but it's still a fact. And it means she's even worse equipped than usual to deal with this situation and that Adama's adult temper tantrum is going to cause more damage than usual too.

See how I beat you for length! :)

But to focus on the points where we agree - Adama's actions, like Kara's, were emotionally damaging and not laudable, even if they were understandable.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think I disagree.

Her husband was the one who needed to step up, because he's her HUSBAND. They took vows. Adama, other subtextual relationships aside, is her boss. And his loyalty is to the fleet, above anyone he may "favor". He got through to her the only way he could, and it was very ugly and harsh, but- he needed his warrior back. And he got it.

Anders actions, OTOH, I see as unforgivable. He could have given her space AND said "I'm not that easy to get rid of, I'll be here when you're ready." Instead, he was cruel. Giving the tags back? *shudder*

Also, FWIW? You were the total opposite of rude in Jenny O's Lj.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Her husband was the one who needed to step up, because he's her HUSBAND. They took vows.
Anders actions, OTOH, I see as unforgivable. He could have given her space AND said "I'm not that easy to get rid of, I'll be here when you're ready." Instead, he was cruel. Giving the tags back? *shudder*

I'm willing to give ground on this. It's certainly a solid platform to work from. I think we see it differently because I don't believe he's leaving forever - you know, to me, the tags were a sign to Kara that she'd stepped over a line without stooping to personal threats or violence. But you're right that we have no proof that he's not gone forever and he did leave pretty quickly. Then again, I also think it was maybe the smartest thing he could have done.

As in, I think given what happened to her, the last thing Kara needs is a husband, and the thing she most needs is a parent. So I'm not necessarily giving Anders credit for his actions because perhaps they were for totally different reasons - maybe he didn't know this - but I do think that he would have struggled to get through to her.

Adama, other subtextual relationships aside, is her boss. And his loyalty is to the fleet, above anyone he may "favor". He got through to her the only way he could,

But the problem is, even as her boss I don't condone violence as a method of control. Also, I'd argue that when you say things like, "You're like a daughter to me," that aspect of the relationship ceases to be subtextual. The other problem is that I didn't necessarily see his behaviour towards Kara as solely based in loyalty to the fleet. It was personal because with Adama, everything's personal. The favouritism aspect is coming into play here because if Kara was Kat or Racetrack or even Helo, he couldn't have used the "I'll disown you," card - he couldn't have handled the situation that way, and he probably wouldn't have tried (though I'm sure he'd have laid the smack down!)

and it was very ugly and harsh, but- he needed his warrior back. And he got it.

This is really the part of the whole thing that fascinates me. Because you're absolutely right on this. His actions do ground Kara and turn her back into a warrior. And he does need that. The fleet needs it. In a really twisted sense, Kara needs it. But I just find the methods and the possible subtext of why, totally dark and fascinating. Which I actually really respect that if it's intentional, and if it's not, as long as they never let me know that, I'll still be happy to sit here in my corner awed by the fact that they went there!

Anyways, thanks for commenting - I always love to get comments and it's goot to be challenged on your opinions. :)

Also, FWIW? You were the total opposite of rude in Jenny O's Lj.

Thank you, that's worth quite a lot because honestly? That reaction I was really not expecting and kind of...threw me. So I really appreciate knowing my comments didn't come across that way to others. :)

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

"Thank you, that's worth quite a lot because honestly? That reaction I was really not expecting and kind of...threw me. So I really appreciate knowing my comments didn't come across that way to others. :)"

Nah, there were quite a few people with "WTF?!" reactions, I just happen to have a big mouth and don't mind saying it in your LJ. ;)

You're right of course, about the Adama/Starbuck not being SUBtext at this point, in the strictest sense. I misused the term. What I meant was...hmm, that the familial relationship comes secondary to the military relationship. Or at least, it ought to, and in times like this, HAS to. And so you are also right about him playing the "you're not my daughter anymore" card being the cruelest thing he could have possibly done. Also, apparently, the only thing he could have done to make her snap to it. Damn, they are great characters.

Yea. I love this show too, man. Not one easy answer in sight, and no one is a White Hat, and by the end of last night's ep, I didn't even know who the hell I was rooting for anymore. YAY for smart TV!

I HOPE Anders comes back. But I did see his leaving as far more permanent than you obviously did. I guess we shall have to wait and see what the writers intended.

In any case, nice to meet you. :)

[beerbad.livejournal.com]

Here via projectjulie...

Thank you for such an insightful and well-written analysis! I'm jealous I didn't think of this myself. ;) I very much enjoyed reading it and all the comments as well, and I think you made some really good connections and observations.

And for that, I'm friending you because I could use more BSG meta of this caliber on my flist. Cheers! :)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

*blushes* Glad you enjoyed it.

And for that, I'm friending you because I could use more BSG meta of this caliber on my flist. Cheers! :)

ARGH! THE PRESSURE! :p Hope you enjoy reading. Though you've signed up just in time for me to disappear on holiday for two weeks... Am still going to try to post my impressions of A Measure of Salvation before I go, though.

[almightychrissy.livejournal.com]

linked here by caitiedidit and just wanted to say that this is incredible, incredible, wonderful. You have a really insightful view of these characters and captured a lot about how painful that last scene was.

Adama's a great commander, but a terrible father. Because he can be vicious towards his children.

YES. The first and primary thing that drew me to the show was the relationship between Adama and Lee, and the whole family dynamic with the two of them and Kara is probably my favorite thing on that show. The crazy thing with Adama is that there are moments where he can show, in his own twisted way, how much he deeply deeply loves them (the episode that I forget the title of, where Kara gets stuck on the planet and fucks up her knee and Lee is all angsty, that episode is full of Good Daddy Adama) and there are times where he is cold, hurtful, and yes, cruel. "If it were you down there, we'd never leave" never fails to choke me up, but the key to that moment is that Lee really did have to ask the question.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I just wanted to say how much I loved your post.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It's always gratifying to know my ramblings are making sense to someone. I agree that the screwed up Adama family dynamic is fascinating. Hopefully it will continue to fascinate us for the rest of the season!

[laet-v.livejournal.com]

Interesting comment about this scene between them both.

I don't agree with you. There, I didn't see the Adama "father" reacting about a situation, it wasn't on the level of love that he acted, for me.
I saw the Admiral Adama, the warrior, in a situation of command, dealing with an insubordination and rebelliousness officer (in fact two). He couldn't tolerate all these comments and attitudes on his ship and among his crew, this can be too dangerous.

I know civilian people don't understand all the (unsaid) rules in the Army and I know military people don't think and don't see the thing like civilian people.

I'm a woman, captain in the french Army, and I wasn't shocked that Adama kick her chair. I only see a CO asserting himself in a position command, physically and psychologically. He had to.

Now, I don't think kindness is a good way to deal with some "kid".

Sorry for my english, Is easier to read...

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hi - no problems about the english, I understand just fine, your english is great.

This reply is brief because I'm on vacation and my online time is limited. Basic rebuttal is: okay, I accept that this might be an acceptable way to deal with an insubordinate officer in the army. Unfortunately, Adama has encouraged Starbuck to see him as a father. He can't have it both ways. I'm also willing to believe this is exactly why there are rules against fraternisation in the armed forces and why family members don't usually serve together. But still, here's the situation we've found ourself in.

Whether or not Adama was acting in an acceptable way as a military commander, Starbuck sees him as a father figure, and for her, personally, in this situation, having a parent act this way will be incredibly damaging.

Thanks for stopping by!