beccatoria (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
beccatoria) wrote2008-08-22 07:00 pm
beccatoria) wrote2008-08-22 07:00 pm
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BSG Meta: Six vs Eight vs Identity
Well, I'm still in South Korea. Still plugging away. Very grateful it's the weekend and not really in the mood to bore everyone with talk of such things, so instead, I have written BSG meta for the first time in ages. Hurrah!
The first cylon-on-cylon opinion we hear about the Eights is a Six opining that her model is weak, which we, as the audience, understand to mean 'human'. Contrast this with Six - the first time we hear a cylon-on-cylon opinion about her is when Boomer talks about how the Sixes are usually so "hardcore" in Downloaded. We meet her committing genocide and infanticide. We meet her through Head!Six who is fascinating and in no way robotic, but also inhuman and terrifying. But Eight, we meet through characters with names. Through Boomer who spends the first season so terrified and through Athena (though back then I suppose she was still Sharon, but still, she claimed a name: Caprica had to be given one), the character who abandons everything for Love.
Six is set up as "all shall look on me and despair," sex-and-violence. Eight is set up as our window to the Cylon's capacity for humanity, redemptive love, evolution and gosh-darned adorable half-robot children. Six and Eight both try to negotiate the distance between human and cylon with their bodies - this constant battle, most obvious with Six but present as an undertow in Eight also, about whether love is sex is sex is love - but Six murders babies while Eight creates them, even though they both started off as Mata Hari. Caprica and Gaius before the mini or Athena and Helo after, they're both doing the same job.
So it's interesting to me that, in season four especially, I feel a strong ambivalence that I think exists in the text also, about this whole "hardcore Six" vs "softcore Eight" and how it might be exactly backwards as soon as you claw the slightest bit under the surface.
It's not that Boomer's observation about the Sixes was wrong, or that Caprica is different fundamentally, so much as Caprica is the first Six Boomer has ever seen - perhaps the first Six that's existed - on more than a...not quite superficial, but perhaps simple level.
It's not that Athena is lacking in naive optimism or a capacity for love, it's that she will also pick her side so damn hard she'll demand a sister's murder to solidify her identity, and the only reasons the Eights on the Rebel Basestar didn't quite get that yet was because they were still...simple. They hadn't had the experience necessary to realise they were going to break down and stick on a side just as hard as Athena one day.
It boils down to: Six is hardcore, but underneath the steel that lets her instigate an unwieldy Centurion uprising, there's a deep, enduring and desperate capacity and desire for love. Six loves the things she's killing and loves her enemies and wants them to love her. "Get it done, no matter what," is wrapped around, "love me, please."
Eight is softcore, but underneath the surface that lets her switch sides and hope blindly for a Lifetime Special ending against all evidence ot the contrary, she's angry and bitter and, well, hateful. Eight commits to hating her enemies and convincing herself it doesn't matter if they hate her too. "Love me, please," is wrapped arond, "Get it done, no matter what."
They're opposites. Though I think that Six's "no matter what," is rooted more in rage and Eight's "no matter what," is rooted more in hate.
Eights don't walk the space between human and cylon very well. Boomer tried in Downloaded and ended up, well, frakking over all the other Eights because she picked her side and it was "being a machine," and everyone else can burn. Athena picked her side and it was "being a human," and everyone else can burn.
It tool me a long time to believe that about Athena or want to. But I remember when she first showed up on Galactica. She was almost certainly lying when she denied knowing what the Resurrection Ship was. She flat out told Adama that though she helped kill the raiders in Flight of the Phoenix she wasn't going to turn over other cylon agents in the Fleet. But then, the comission, Helo, carrot and stick.
I'm not unsympathetic. In Athena's position - at least given what she wanted to achieve - half conversion wasn't an option. But still, I finally got it when Starbuck was trying to talk Sam down from shooting the Six that killed Barolay, and Athena was there, leading the "kill her" charge, complete with us vs them language.
I remember when she wouldn't kill D'Anna on New Caprica even though she would have resurrected and ever though she'd just told her that Hera was alive and Athena thought it was the cruelest lie a person could tell.
Now she murders unarmed women she knows will never come back because they were speaking to Hera. I actually think Adama fundamentally misunderstood why Athena shot Natalie, but I'm not sure he was wrong exactly when he asked if she hated her own people that much. Or at least if she feels she has to convince herself she hates them or she'll fall apart?
It's interesting that first act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Athena when she shoots another Eight at the end of season one, when Helo works out who and what she is. It's committed in an attempt to abandon her people and walk off on her own path, at their expense, with things that also matter to them. While the first known and credited act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Caprica, though she does it in an attmept to bring her people with her and share what she's learned.
I'm not really sure what I think all of this means, except perhaps, that Eight is good at crossing lines, while Six is better at living between them?
Hell, maybe that's why Eight is often coded in the show as being more human. Another watershed Eight moment for me was the Eight who dabbled with Athena's memories and how, to her, it was completely not a violation, it was probably something closer to love and it was certainly something she had every right to do because there is a sense of shared communal ownership that crosses between the models, and she hadn't yet realised that Athena had stopped being one of them, at times violently. We've seen how Athena reacts to the slightest notion of communal ownership of Hera or her own life: I really, really don't think she would have liked knowing that the other Eight took her memories. Well, that's it, isn't it, did she "take" them or did she "share" them? Is Captain Agathon married to the entire production line? Sort of, yeah. It's just Athena would rather stop being what she is than admit it.
Because that's what we've seen with the Cylon. Slowly they stop being who they are. You must die. You must not share your mind. I honestly am all for the Cylon evolving, becoming more individualised as seems to be their natural tendency when given the space to do so. But at this point, it seems less like, "You must 'grow up' to the point where you are no longer a danger to those around you," and more like, "You must 'grow up' to be just like the humans."
I wonder...if there's something we're missing here.
We're so programmed to fear even partial gestalts. To dismiss them as unhealthy, or communist, or in this case alienbadalien.
Which is maybe the real point of all of this. Six is more alien than Eight. And she keeps moving toward us - toward "human" - without scarring herself in order to get rid of everything that might still brand her as "cylon" the way Athena did.
How do we deal with that?
She's far more loving and more generous than Eight, but she's alien. She's not human. So too often, it's easy not to notice.
/Meta.
The first cylon-on-cylon opinion we hear about the Eights is a Six opining that her model is weak, which we, as the audience, understand to mean 'human'. Contrast this with Six - the first time we hear a cylon-on-cylon opinion about her is when Boomer talks about how the Sixes are usually so "hardcore" in Downloaded. We meet her committing genocide and infanticide. We meet her through Head!Six who is fascinating and in no way robotic, but also inhuman and terrifying. But Eight, we meet through characters with names. Through Boomer who spends the first season so terrified and through Athena (though back then I suppose she was still Sharon, but still, she claimed a name: Caprica had to be given one), the character who abandons everything for Love.
Six is set up as "all shall look on me and despair," sex-and-violence. Eight is set up as our window to the Cylon's capacity for humanity, redemptive love, evolution and gosh-darned adorable half-robot children. Six and Eight both try to negotiate the distance between human and cylon with their bodies - this constant battle, most obvious with Six but present as an undertow in Eight also, about whether love is sex is sex is love - but Six murders babies while Eight creates them, even though they both started off as Mata Hari. Caprica and Gaius before the mini or Athena and Helo after, they're both doing the same job.
So it's interesting to me that, in season four especially, I feel a strong ambivalence that I think exists in the text also, about this whole "hardcore Six" vs "softcore Eight" and how it might be exactly backwards as soon as you claw the slightest bit under the surface.
It's not that Boomer's observation about the Sixes was wrong, or that Caprica is different fundamentally, so much as Caprica is the first Six Boomer has ever seen - perhaps the first Six that's existed - on more than a...not quite superficial, but perhaps simple level.
It's not that Athena is lacking in naive optimism or a capacity for love, it's that she will also pick her side so damn hard she'll demand a sister's murder to solidify her identity, and the only reasons the Eights on the Rebel Basestar didn't quite get that yet was because they were still...simple. They hadn't had the experience necessary to realise they were going to break down and stick on a side just as hard as Athena one day.
It boils down to: Six is hardcore, but underneath the steel that lets her instigate an unwieldy Centurion uprising, there's a deep, enduring and desperate capacity and desire for love. Six loves the things she's killing and loves her enemies and wants them to love her. "Get it done, no matter what," is wrapped around, "love me, please."
Eight is softcore, but underneath the surface that lets her switch sides and hope blindly for a Lifetime Special ending against all evidence ot the contrary, she's angry and bitter and, well, hateful. Eight commits to hating her enemies and convincing herself it doesn't matter if they hate her too. "Love me, please," is wrapped arond, "Get it done, no matter what."
They're opposites. Though I think that Six's "no matter what," is rooted more in rage and Eight's "no matter what," is rooted more in hate.
Eights don't walk the space between human and cylon very well. Boomer tried in Downloaded and ended up, well, frakking over all the other Eights because she picked her side and it was "being a machine," and everyone else can burn. Athena picked her side and it was "being a human," and everyone else can burn.
It tool me a long time to believe that about Athena or want to. But I remember when she first showed up on Galactica. She was almost certainly lying when she denied knowing what the Resurrection Ship was. She flat out told Adama that though she helped kill the raiders in Flight of the Phoenix she wasn't going to turn over other cylon agents in the Fleet. But then, the comission, Helo, carrot and stick.
I'm not unsympathetic. In Athena's position - at least given what she wanted to achieve - half conversion wasn't an option. But still, I finally got it when Starbuck was trying to talk Sam down from shooting the Six that killed Barolay, and Athena was there, leading the "kill her" charge, complete with us vs them language.
I remember when she wouldn't kill D'Anna on New Caprica even though she would have resurrected and ever though she'd just told her that Hera was alive and Athena thought it was the cruelest lie a person could tell.
Now she murders unarmed women she knows will never come back because they were speaking to Hera. I actually think Adama fundamentally misunderstood why Athena shot Natalie, but I'm not sure he was wrong exactly when he asked if she hated her own people that much. Or at least if she feels she has to convince herself she hates them or she'll fall apart?
It's interesting that first act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Athena when she shoots another Eight at the end of season one, when Helo works out who and what she is. It's committed in an attempt to abandon her people and walk off on her own path, at their expense, with things that also matter to them. While the first known and credited act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Caprica, though she does it in an attmept to bring her people with her and share what she's learned.
I'm not really sure what I think all of this means, except perhaps, that Eight is good at crossing lines, while Six is better at living between them?
Hell, maybe that's why Eight is often coded in the show as being more human. Another watershed Eight moment for me was the Eight who dabbled with Athena's memories and how, to her, it was completely not a violation, it was probably something closer to love and it was certainly something she had every right to do because there is a sense of shared communal ownership that crosses between the models, and she hadn't yet realised that Athena had stopped being one of them, at times violently. We've seen how Athena reacts to the slightest notion of communal ownership of Hera or her own life: I really, really don't think she would have liked knowing that the other Eight took her memories. Well, that's it, isn't it, did she "take" them or did she "share" them? Is Captain Agathon married to the entire production line? Sort of, yeah. It's just Athena would rather stop being what she is than admit it.
Because that's what we've seen with the Cylon. Slowly they stop being who they are. You must die. You must not share your mind. I honestly am all for the Cylon evolving, becoming more individualised as seems to be their natural tendency when given the space to do so. But at this point, it seems less like, "You must 'grow up' to the point where you are no longer a danger to those around you," and more like, "You must 'grow up' to be just like the humans."
I wonder...if there's something we're missing here.
We're so programmed to fear even partial gestalts. To dismiss them as unhealthy, or communist, or in this case alienbadalien.
Which is maybe the real point of all of this. Six is more alien than Eight. And she keeps moving toward us - toward "human" - without scarring herself in order to get rid of everything that might still brand her as "cylon" the way Athena did.
How do we deal with that?
She's far more loving and more generous than Eight, but she's alien. She's not human. So too often, it's easy not to notice.
/Meta.
no subject
I once thought they had a potential to be something beyond human. Maybe even better than human.
Interesting! I don't think I'd ever say better simply because I don't think that the show supports that kind of absolutist narrative. It's why I dislike the idea that the Cylon must become like humans because that's just as absolute, and suggests we are superior for...no good reason that the show can supply.
Sidenote: One of the only key things in the show that irritates me is the constant harping on about how you have to be worthy of surviving and just surviving isn't enough. It irritates me because I absolutely and HUGELY think that survival isn't an excuse to turn yourself into a monster, and I think that's what they're really trying to get at, but in the show, the question is often used in uncharacteristically simplistic ways. It's like a get-out-of-complex-discussion-while-appearing-to-be-"deep"-free card. I think it irks me because it's so often used not as a way of asking, can we live with ourselves? but of asking did we deserve it? while the quesiton of worthiness is never really laid in front of the Cylon. At least not until Natalie. So yay for that. /LOOONG Sidenote!
But to get back to what you were saying, I'm not sure I'd say the Cylon should be better than humans but different, beyond, absolutely. And that doesn't preclude the wonderfully complex and interesting tales of hybridity we get from Hera, from the Final Five, even from Laura with her Magical Baby Blood. In fact those tales are more interesting if the Cylon are...alien.
A friend of mine mentioned that the first act of cylon-on-cylon violence was when Sharon killed Six (some Six) when Six kissed Helo on Caprica.
Good point. But yes, I think the fact it was sanctioned does make a difference. While they perhaps never used to be that violent, and it's certainly a commentary on the worlds we build, I also have a sneaking suspicion that it may have more to do with mass identity versus individual identity. Which takes us back to the way BSG prioritises the individual identity over the gestalt. It's not a tack I'm opposed to, since it's TV made for individuals, but it's a wonderful and potentially wasted opportunity to explore the gestalt as something other than alien and evil.
Actually if we're counting that way, then the first act of cylon-on-cylon violence was the nuclear attack on Caprica that killed Caprica!Six. She was the first casualty of "friendly fire".
Yes, and our dear Caprica. Where does she fit in the end?
I CANNOT WAIT TO FIND OUT.
Though, I also don't want to get my hopes up. I got excited when she came back in Downloaded and then we didn't see her again until season three. I got really excited about that and then D'anna ate up all her screetime (I mean, I love Cylon!Xena, I really, really do, but she majorly sidelined Caprica's screentime because they had to make use of the bigname guest star). So then D'anna left and Caprica was on Galactica and AGAIN I thought, wow, now they'll HAVE to give us a storyline, right? Nope. So then we get the season three finale and I'm like, OH OH she's sharing visions with the MAJOR PLAYERS so in season four, I won't be disappointed, will I? And...she's in...three episodes of ten, I think? And only one of them has her for more than a single scene?
...that was also the point at which I decided to make a vid about how sidelined she was and how no one pays any attention to how much she loves them.
But I'm babbling now, and the only point I was trying to make was, she'll probably yet again do something really important but only be in a handful of scenes.
no subject
Hmm, okay. Maybe not better. But beyond human. More. There is so much potential. Sentient beings who can feel and reason. Heck, I'm even interested in the Centurions. Did that one get what Gaius was saying about God? These beings, who knows what they might be able to do!
You are right. "The gestalt as something other than alien and evil." Yes, they could be not human and not evil. It is possible. I grew up with Star Trek. In that world, all life was valued, human or otherwise. I know the BSG-verse isn't there yet, but now I'm wondering why humans created the Cylons, anyway? Why did the Cylons want to evolve? It couldn't just be just to destroy, to turn on their 'parents'. The way they want to reproduce, to find Earth. They must want more. And the faction with Natalie and Leoben does not seem to want to destroy. Maybe together they could serve a good purpose. Who knows?
The survival debate! I know! There is the idea, let's survive this first and then pick up our morals, our dignity later. Nope. I agree with you, survival is no excuse to become monsters. I don't think either side asks whether they can live with themselves. Laura and Bill used to long ago. Laura used to carry her sins on slips of paper in her pocket and Bill used to say things about, 'living with it.' But that was then. I think the Cylons didn't ask that question because they were humanity's 'children'. As children betrayed, they never had to feel guilty. Being basically immortal, life stretched on as did guilt, in a way it doesn't when you can reach the end of line all too soon.
Caprica was the first casulty! But whoa if Gina was on Pegaus at that time, how many other models died in the attacks on the twelve worlds?
And that doesn't preclude the wonderfully complex and interesting tales of hybridity we get from Hera, from the Final Five, even from Laura with her Magical Baby Blood. In fact those tales are more interesting if the Cylon are...alien.
I want to know those tales! And the thing of it all, is I feel we are running out of time to tell them. :-(
So I take it you like the Sixes, huh? :-) See, I feel we got a lot of the Sixes this season. Not Caprica, per se. But we got Natalie and PTSD!Six and even a little Head!Six. And Natalie! Natalie as leader. She was awesome, I do not understand why she had to die.
But I'm okay about the lack of Sixes if it makes you make vids! Yay!
Six is always important. We have to keep an eye out on her too. Actually, all of the Sixes. :-)
no subject
See, I think the reason why I'm so irked about the constant "we have to be worthy of surviving" schtick we get from Bill (or at least we used to in S3) is that I think the show does a really good job of this most of the time.
Because it makes me question my preconceptions. So, for instance, I absolutely agree that survival is no excuse to become a monster because then you haven't survived. Cain is proof of this. But that said, I also don't think that you have to prove your worthiness to survive. Survival is an inalienable right. But one sometimes you have to fight for.
So, for instance, when they were considering unleashing the Cylon plague before Helo killed the infected prisoners on the sly, I really didn't have much sympathy for Adama's position, and I basically was siding with Roslin (although I'd also note that the show didn't give us any reason to believe that it would actually do more than wipe out a couple dozen basestars at most). Because "we have to be worthy of surviving," is an absolutist argument in a situation where absolutes don't exist. Neither Roslin nor Adama wants to become Cain, but Roslin had an extremely potent point about being okay with history judging her because that would mean this all survived into history.
All I can really say for sure is, every time Adama argues against something for some nebulous reason like, "we have to be worthy of surviving," I want to smack him upside the head and say, "OKAY, WE'LL ALL JUST SIT HERE AND WAIT TO DIE THEN, SHALL WE?" because it puts everything into a binary context of Cain vs Pacifism, and even as a hippy pacifist, I know stuff ain't always that simple?
Blargh, see, this is what this show does to my brain. I'm sorry, I'm rambling incoherently now, and I'll stop.
But I did have something else thing to add! Firstly Sixes! Yes, we did get awesome Sixness with Natalie, and seeing Six in a different context was amazing. But I'm still sad that every time we might end up with more Caprica she's sidelined. First by Head!Six then by D'Anna, now by Natalie. It's not that I'd want to get rid of any of those characters or cut their screentime: they're all awesome. I just find it an entertaining meta-commentary on how forgotten Caprica is in-show. ;)
And Natalie! Natalie as leader. She was awesome, I do not understand why she had to die.
I do. I didn't understand for a while and I was very sad, but then I got it. And if anything, it made me sadder, even though I decided it was a legitimate creative deicision.
Natalie chose for the Cylon and she chose death. For every single one of them. Forever. That's massive. To quote Kendra, and to get at a strong recurring theme in the show - "You make your choices and you live with them, and in the end, you are those choices."
Natalie chose death for her entire race. You can't make that kind of a decision and not go first.
She claimed that for their lives to have any meaning, they had to die. So she did.
no subject
Not incoherent, I agree with you! Middle ground, sometimes this show lacks middle ground. There is something between Cain and Pacifism. Maybe Lee will find it. I don't know. I hope they find it.
Natalie chose death for her entire race. You can't make that kind of a decision and not go first.
Wow. You mean since she worked to destroy the Hub? She also choice trust too, trust that the humans wouldn't take advantage of the Cylons' newly mortal status. A martyr for her cause, she knew the possibility of death.
Oh, this reminds me of the moment in "Handlebars" where it says, "I can lead a nation with a microphone." Natalie in front of the quorum was a moment better in the vid, than when it happened on the show. The whole video made the Revelations episode (and other later eps in season 4.0) much better for me. Natalie leading nations. That's her. It makes me wonder, what sacrifices will the humans have to make? Laura Roslin is dying, dying for what? What she will choose for her race?
Mortality does give life meaning. But trust? I want to believe that the two sides can build that. I want to but deep down I don't. If the show is going that route, it's going to have to be extra-convincing and written VERY WELL for me to buy it. Which would be awesome. We'll see. :-)
no subject
I did gather a few thoughts here on Caprica and Head!Six. A bit rambly, though.