BSG Meta: Six vs Eight vs Identity
Aug. 22nd, 2008 07:00 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccatoriaWell, I'm still in South Korea. Still plugging away. Very grateful it's the weekend and not really in the mood to bore everyone with talk of such things, so instead, I have written BSG meta for the first time in ages. Hurrah!
The first cylon-on-cylon opinion we hear about the Eights is a Six opining that her model is weak, which we, as the audience, understand to mean 'human'. Contrast this with Six - the first time we hear a cylon-on-cylon opinion about her is when Boomer talks about how the Sixes are usually so "hardcore" in Downloaded. We meet her committing genocide and infanticide. We meet her through Head!Six who is fascinating and in no way robotic, but also inhuman and terrifying. But Eight, we meet through characters with names. Through Boomer who spends the first season so terrified and through Athena (though back then I suppose she was still Sharon, but still, she claimed a name: Caprica had to be given one), the character who abandons everything for Love.
Six is set up as "all shall look on me and despair," sex-and-violence. Eight is set up as our window to the Cylon's capacity for humanity, redemptive love, evolution and gosh-darned adorable half-robot children. Six and Eight both try to negotiate the distance between human and cylon with their bodies - this constant battle, most obvious with Six but present as an undertow in Eight also, about whether love is sex is sex is love - but Six murders babies while Eight creates them, even though they both started off as Mata Hari. Caprica and Gaius before the mini or Athena and Helo after, they're both doing the same job.
So it's interesting to me that, in season four especially, I feel a strong ambivalence that I think exists in the text also, about this whole "hardcore Six" vs "softcore Eight" and how it might be exactly backwards as soon as you claw the slightest bit under the surface.
It's not that Boomer's observation about the Sixes was wrong, or that Caprica is different fundamentally, so much as Caprica is the first Six Boomer has ever seen - perhaps the first Six that's existed - on more than a...not quite superficial, but perhaps simple level.
It's not that Athena is lacking in naive optimism or a capacity for love, it's that she will also pick her side so damn hard she'll demand a sister's murder to solidify her identity, and the only reasons the Eights on the Rebel Basestar didn't quite get that yet was because they were still...simple. They hadn't had the experience necessary to realise they were going to break down and stick on a side just as hard as Athena one day.
It boils down to: Six is hardcore, but underneath the steel that lets her instigate an unwieldy Centurion uprising, there's a deep, enduring and desperate capacity and desire for love. Six loves the things she's killing and loves her enemies and wants them to love her. "Get it done, no matter what," is wrapped around, "love me, please."
Eight is softcore, but underneath the surface that lets her switch sides and hope blindly for a Lifetime Special ending against all evidence ot the contrary, she's angry and bitter and, well, hateful. Eight commits to hating her enemies and convincing herself it doesn't matter if they hate her too. "Love me, please," is wrapped arond, "Get it done, no matter what."
They're opposites. Though I think that Six's "no matter what," is rooted more in rage and Eight's "no matter what," is rooted more in hate.
Eights don't walk the space between human and cylon very well. Boomer tried in Downloaded and ended up, well, frakking over all the other Eights because she picked her side and it was "being a machine," and everyone else can burn. Athena picked her side and it was "being a human," and everyone else can burn.
It tool me a long time to believe that about Athena or want to. But I remember when she first showed up on Galactica. She was almost certainly lying when she denied knowing what the Resurrection Ship was. She flat out told Adama that though she helped kill the raiders in Flight of the Phoenix she wasn't going to turn over other cylon agents in the Fleet. But then, the comission, Helo, carrot and stick.
I'm not unsympathetic. In Athena's position - at least given what she wanted to achieve - half conversion wasn't an option. But still, I finally got it when Starbuck was trying to talk Sam down from shooting the Six that killed Barolay, and Athena was there, leading the "kill her" charge, complete with us vs them language.
I remember when she wouldn't kill D'Anna on New Caprica even though she would have resurrected and ever though she'd just told her that Hera was alive and Athena thought it was the cruelest lie a person could tell.
Now she murders unarmed women she knows will never come back because they were speaking to Hera. I actually think Adama fundamentally misunderstood why Athena shot Natalie, but I'm not sure he was wrong exactly when he asked if she hated her own people that much. Or at least if she feels she has to convince herself she hates them or she'll fall apart?
It's interesting that first act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Athena when she shoots another Eight at the end of season one, when Helo works out who and what she is. It's committed in an attempt to abandon her people and walk off on her own path, at their expense, with things that also matter to them. While the first known and credited act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Caprica, though she does it in an attmept to bring her people with her and share what she's learned.
I'm not really sure what I think all of this means, except perhaps, that Eight is good at crossing lines, while Six is better at living between them?
Hell, maybe that's why Eight is often coded in the show as being more human. Another watershed Eight moment for me was the Eight who dabbled with Athena's memories and how, to her, it was completely not a violation, it was probably something closer to love and it was certainly something she had every right to do because there is a sense of shared communal ownership that crosses between the models, and she hadn't yet realised that Athena had stopped being one of them, at times violently. We've seen how Athena reacts to the slightest notion of communal ownership of Hera or her own life: I really, really don't think she would have liked knowing that the other Eight took her memories. Well, that's it, isn't it, did she "take" them or did she "share" them? Is Captain Agathon married to the entire production line? Sort of, yeah. It's just Athena would rather stop being what she is than admit it.
Because that's what we've seen with the Cylon. Slowly they stop being who they are. You must die. You must not share your mind. I honestly am all for the Cylon evolving, becoming more individualised as seems to be their natural tendency when given the space to do so. But at this point, it seems less like, "You must 'grow up' to the point where you are no longer a danger to those around you," and more like, "You must 'grow up' to be just like the humans."
I wonder...if there's something we're missing here.
We're so programmed to fear even partial gestalts. To dismiss them as unhealthy, or communist, or in this case alienbadalien.
Which is maybe the real point of all of this. Six is more alien than Eight. And she keeps moving toward us - toward "human" - without scarring herself in order to get rid of everything that might still brand her as "cylon" the way Athena did.
How do we deal with that?
She's far more loving and more generous than Eight, but she's alien. She's not human. So too often, it's easy not to notice.
/Meta.
The first cylon-on-cylon opinion we hear about the Eights is a Six opining that her model is weak, which we, as the audience, understand to mean 'human'. Contrast this with Six - the first time we hear a cylon-on-cylon opinion about her is when Boomer talks about how the Sixes are usually so "hardcore" in Downloaded. We meet her committing genocide and infanticide. We meet her through Head!Six who is fascinating and in no way robotic, but also inhuman and terrifying. But Eight, we meet through characters with names. Through Boomer who spends the first season so terrified and through Athena (though back then I suppose she was still Sharon, but still, she claimed a name: Caprica had to be given one), the character who abandons everything for Love.
Six is set up as "all shall look on me and despair," sex-and-violence. Eight is set up as our window to the Cylon's capacity for humanity, redemptive love, evolution and gosh-darned adorable half-robot children. Six and Eight both try to negotiate the distance between human and cylon with their bodies - this constant battle, most obvious with Six but present as an undertow in Eight also, about whether love is sex is sex is love - but Six murders babies while Eight creates them, even though they both started off as Mata Hari. Caprica and Gaius before the mini or Athena and Helo after, they're both doing the same job.
So it's interesting to me that, in season four especially, I feel a strong ambivalence that I think exists in the text also, about this whole "hardcore Six" vs "softcore Eight" and how it might be exactly backwards as soon as you claw the slightest bit under the surface.
It's not that Boomer's observation about the Sixes was wrong, or that Caprica is different fundamentally, so much as Caprica is the first Six Boomer has ever seen - perhaps the first Six that's existed - on more than a...not quite superficial, but perhaps simple level.
It's not that Athena is lacking in naive optimism or a capacity for love, it's that she will also pick her side so damn hard she'll demand a sister's murder to solidify her identity, and the only reasons the Eights on the Rebel Basestar didn't quite get that yet was because they were still...simple. They hadn't had the experience necessary to realise they were going to break down and stick on a side just as hard as Athena one day.
It boils down to: Six is hardcore, but underneath the steel that lets her instigate an unwieldy Centurion uprising, there's a deep, enduring and desperate capacity and desire for love. Six loves the things she's killing and loves her enemies and wants them to love her. "Get it done, no matter what," is wrapped around, "love me, please."
Eight is softcore, but underneath the surface that lets her switch sides and hope blindly for a Lifetime Special ending against all evidence ot the contrary, she's angry and bitter and, well, hateful. Eight commits to hating her enemies and convincing herself it doesn't matter if they hate her too. "Love me, please," is wrapped arond, "Get it done, no matter what."
They're opposites. Though I think that Six's "no matter what," is rooted more in rage and Eight's "no matter what," is rooted more in hate.
Eights don't walk the space between human and cylon very well. Boomer tried in Downloaded and ended up, well, frakking over all the other Eights because she picked her side and it was "being a machine," and everyone else can burn. Athena picked her side and it was "being a human," and everyone else can burn.
It tool me a long time to believe that about Athena or want to. But I remember when she first showed up on Galactica. She was almost certainly lying when she denied knowing what the Resurrection Ship was. She flat out told Adama that though she helped kill the raiders in Flight of the Phoenix she wasn't going to turn over other cylon agents in the Fleet. But then, the comission, Helo, carrot and stick.
I'm not unsympathetic. In Athena's position - at least given what she wanted to achieve - half conversion wasn't an option. But still, I finally got it when Starbuck was trying to talk Sam down from shooting the Six that killed Barolay, and Athena was there, leading the "kill her" charge, complete with us vs them language.
I remember when she wouldn't kill D'Anna on New Caprica even though she would have resurrected and ever though she'd just told her that Hera was alive and Athena thought it was the cruelest lie a person could tell.
Now she murders unarmed women she knows will never come back because they were speaking to Hera. I actually think Adama fundamentally misunderstood why Athena shot Natalie, but I'm not sure he was wrong exactly when he asked if she hated her own people that much. Or at least if she feels she has to convince herself she hates them or she'll fall apart?
It's interesting that first act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Athena when she shoots another Eight at the end of season one, when Helo works out who and what she is. It's committed in an attempt to abandon her people and walk off on her own path, at their expense, with things that also matter to them. While the first known and credited act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Caprica, though she does it in an attmept to bring her people with her and share what she's learned.
I'm not really sure what I think all of this means, except perhaps, that Eight is good at crossing lines, while Six is better at living between them?
Hell, maybe that's why Eight is often coded in the show as being more human. Another watershed Eight moment for me was the Eight who dabbled with Athena's memories and how, to her, it was completely not a violation, it was probably something closer to love and it was certainly something she had every right to do because there is a sense of shared communal ownership that crosses between the models, and she hadn't yet realised that Athena had stopped being one of them, at times violently. We've seen how Athena reacts to the slightest notion of communal ownership of Hera or her own life: I really, really don't think she would have liked knowing that the other Eight took her memories. Well, that's it, isn't it, did she "take" them or did she "share" them? Is Captain Agathon married to the entire production line? Sort of, yeah. It's just Athena would rather stop being what she is than admit it.
Because that's what we've seen with the Cylon. Slowly they stop being who they are. You must die. You must not share your mind. I honestly am all for the Cylon evolving, becoming more individualised as seems to be their natural tendency when given the space to do so. But at this point, it seems less like, "You must 'grow up' to the point where you are no longer a danger to those around you," and more like, "You must 'grow up' to be just like the humans."
I wonder...if there's something we're missing here.
We're so programmed to fear even partial gestalts. To dismiss them as unhealthy, or communist, or in this case alienbadalien.
Which is maybe the real point of all of this. Six is more alien than Eight. And she keeps moving toward us - toward "human" - without scarring herself in order to get rid of everything that might still brand her as "cylon" the way Athena did.
How do we deal with that?
She's far more loving and more generous than Eight, but she's alien. She's not human. So too often, it's easy not to notice.
/Meta.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-08-22 12:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 04:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-22 02:15 pm (UTC)I'm quite convinced by your reading of both Six and Eight. I found Athena's shooting of Natalie to be quite out of character, because her actions have always seemed much more... calculated than that was, but when you put it in the context of her other acts of violence against the Cylon it makes most sense.
I'm not sure that the movement toward individualism rests as strongly in any of the Cylon models as it does in Six. Eights appear s a group except when they're put in position by a plan from higher up, and even the wannabe-Athena gets her individuality by joining with another. But Sixes separate themselves and develop individuaity on their own from experiences that don't necessarily force it upon them. Where did Natalie get her name? Even the Six who was traumatised by drowning let that experience change her in ways that the other Cylon might not.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 04:43 am (UTC)I do agree with you about Athena and her shooting Natalie: at first I really didn't understand why she did it and wasn't prepared to comfortably write it off as an "irrational mother" stereotype. Athena is smarter than that. But I was also...pissed at Natalie's death until I decided that while I still wished it hadn't happened, there really is a legitimate story-shaped reason to have her die because she has to be the first one to take that step since she committed the Cylon on that path. And then it felt more...like the horrible, organic climax of the Six/Eight struggle on how to...be. Athena's increasing violence; Six's increasing willingness to step into the places no one - human or cylon - is willing to step.
There was cut material from the Demetrius storyline where Athena talks to Helo about how she's starting to feel accepted by the crew and then is very hurt when they turn on her and Kara's potential to be a "toaster" during the mutiny and she realises they still don't trust her. I think that would have made her baying for Six's blood even more tragic. Also there's a cut scene from the season three finale where she's talking to Roslin about "projection" and how she doesn't do it much since she got to Galactica because it doesn't feel like something a person would do.
I'm starting to wonder if her calculating intelligence is something that Athena has become afraid of; if that's also something a machine does, and not a person. I don't really have textual evidence to back that statement up, but...yeah. As soon as the humans accepted her (somewhat) that's when her calculating and chess-player nature really started dying and she turned into someone more impulsive. And someone who habitually limits herself even if it's not also on an intellectual level. HMM.
And OMG YES about the Sixes and individuality. I know that it originally started as a way to let Tricia Helfer out of that wig once they had to stop bleaching her hair, but then we get the black-haired Six that Baltar kills on the infected Baseship. And I'm TOTALLY curious about Natalie and her name. It's weird that the Sixes are so individualistic when we don't have a "name" for them. Every other model collectively claims a default name - Cavil, Leoben, D'Anna, Simon, Doral, Sharon - but the Sixes... Is it Shelley Godfrey, or Natalie, or Gina Invierre? On face value it seems more conformist to be known only by your number, but perhaps again, it needs inverting: it means that you have to come up with your own name if you want one.
And you have a totally excellent point about how we've never met an Eight with any individuality that didn't stem from Sleeper!Boomer's fake memories.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-31 03:56 pm (UTC)But mostly I just wanted to use this icon. What is it with Athena being so possessive of Hera, anyway -- hasn't she seen the VID?!
no subject
Date: 2008-09-01 12:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-22 08:30 pm (UTC)I feel a strong ambivalence that I think exists in the text also, about this whole "hardcore Six" vs "softcore Eight" and how it might be exactly backwards as soon as you claw the slightest bit under the surface.
I keep saying to watch Boomer. And the Eights. And Sharon. Not because Sharon hasn't proven herself. She's done the best she can. But because, like Six, she isn't human. And Boomer? Boomer is bitter. Sharon took her life, would be nothing on that ship without their memories of Boomer. She has a right to some rage of her own. I almost want her to be angry. But I also want Boomer, and the Cylons as a whole, to kind of get over the Galactica and the fleet. I once thought they had a potential to be something beyond human. Maybe even better than human. But it doesn't seem where the show is going. And maybe that's just my imagination stretching.
It's interesting that first act of cylon-on-cylon violence is committed by Athena when she shoots another Eight at the end of season one, when Helo works out who and what she is.
A friend of mine mentioned that the first act of cylon-on-cylon violence was when Sharon killed Six (some Six) when Six kissed Helo on Caprica. Now that may have been planned violence, like Six beating up Sharon to convince Helo she's on his side, but look what just trying to join with one human drove them to! I get the feeling they weren't violent with each other before this.
I really, really don't think she would have liked knowing that the other Eight took her memories. Well, that's it, isn't it, did she "take" them or did she "share" them? Is Captain Agathon married to the entire production line? Sort of, yeah. It's just Athena would rather stop being what she is than admit it
It's funny. I think she would mind! But didn't she do the same to Boomer? Why does that make Eighthena wrong? I wish Athena would just admit what she is. We all know. They all know. We know she's trying. Broke my heart to see Adama take her child from her, she had worked so hard and loves him so much. But. I think I'd trust her more if she just said, "I'm a Cylon and I don't know what that means. I don't know what I might do. And it scares even me." Because that would be real. And upfront and honest.
"You must 'grow up' to be just like the humans."
Noes! Becoming more human is not the answer! Stay away from us! We're bad, bad, bad! Gosh, I should be more deep about it, but this is how I feel. :-)
It's not wrong to be not human. At least I don't think so. I keep thinking of the opening, "They evolved." One day humans might evolve. Into what? Hopefully something better, right? I don't think the Eights can see that. They are too full of Boomer and their own flaws to see it. But the Sixes? I think they see possibility. It will be interesting to see where the Sixes end up. Yes, and our dear Caprica. Where does she fit in the end?
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 05:02 am (UTC)I once thought they had a potential to be something beyond human. Maybe even better than human.
Interesting! I don't think I'd ever say better simply because I don't think that the show supports that kind of absolutist narrative. It's why I dislike the idea that the Cylon must become like humans because that's just as absolute, and suggests we are superior for...no good reason that the show can supply.
Sidenote: One of the only key things in the show that irritates me is the constant harping on about how you have to be worthy of surviving and just surviving isn't enough. It irritates me because I absolutely and HUGELY think that survival isn't an excuse to turn yourself into a monster, and I think that's what they're really trying to get at, but in the show, the question is often used in uncharacteristically simplistic ways. It's like a get-out-of-complex-discussion-while-appearing-to-be-"deep"-free card. I think it irks me because it's so often used not as a way of asking, can we live with ourselves? but of asking did we deserve it? while the quesiton of worthiness is never really laid in front of the Cylon. At least not until Natalie. So yay for that. /LOOONG Sidenote!
But to get back to what you were saying, I'm not sure I'd say the Cylon should be better than humans but different, beyond, absolutely. And that doesn't preclude the wonderfully complex and interesting tales of hybridity we get from Hera, from the Final Five, even from Laura with her Magical Baby Blood. In fact those tales are more interesting if the Cylon are...alien.
A friend of mine mentioned that the first act of cylon-on-cylon violence was when Sharon killed Six (some Six) when Six kissed Helo on Caprica.
Good point. But yes, I think the fact it was sanctioned does make a difference. While they perhaps never used to be that violent, and it's certainly a commentary on the worlds we build, I also have a sneaking suspicion that it may have more to do with mass identity versus individual identity. Which takes us back to the way BSG prioritises the individual identity over the gestalt. It's not a tack I'm opposed to, since it's TV made for individuals, but it's a wonderful and potentially wasted opportunity to explore the gestalt as something other than alien and evil.
Actually if we're counting that way, then the first act of cylon-on-cylon violence was the nuclear attack on Caprica that killed Caprica!Six. She was the first casualty of "friendly fire".
Yes, and our dear Caprica. Where does she fit in the end?
I CANNOT WAIT TO FIND OUT.
Though, I also don't want to get my hopes up. I got excited when she came back in Downloaded and then we didn't see her again until season three. I got really excited about that and then D'anna ate up all her screetime (I mean, I love Cylon!Xena, I really, really do, but she majorly sidelined Caprica's screentime because they had to make use of the bigname guest star). So then D'anna left and Caprica was on Galactica and AGAIN I thought, wow, now they'll HAVE to give us a storyline, right? Nope. So then we get the season three finale and I'm like, OH OH she's sharing visions with the MAJOR PLAYERS so in season four, I won't be disappointed, will I? And...she's in...three episodes of ten, I think? And only one of them has her for more than a single scene?
...that was also the point at which I decided to make a vid about how sidelined she was and how no one pays any attention to how much she loves them.
But I'm babbling now, and the only point I was trying to make was, she'll probably yet again do something really important but only be in a handful of scenes.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 08:37 am (UTC)Hmm, okay. Maybe not better. But beyond human. More. There is so much potential. Sentient beings who can feel and reason. Heck, I'm even interested in the Centurions. Did that one get what Gaius was saying about God? These beings, who knows what they might be able to do!
You are right. "The gestalt as something other than alien and evil." Yes, they could be not human and not evil. It is possible. I grew up with Star Trek. In that world, all life was valued, human or otherwise. I know the BSG-verse isn't there yet, but now I'm wondering why humans created the Cylons, anyway? Why did the Cylons want to evolve? It couldn't just be just to destroy, to turn on their 'parents'. The way they want to reproduce, to find Earth. They must want more. And the faction with Natalie and Leoben does not seem to want to destroy. Maybe together they could serve a good purpose. Who knows?
The survival debate! I know! There is the idea, let's survive this first and then pick up our morals, our dignity later. Nope. I agree with you, survival is no excuse to become monsters. I don't think either side asks whether they can live with themselves. Laura and Bill used to long ago. Laura used to carry her sins on slips of paper in her pocket and Bill used to say things about, 'living with it.' But that was then. I think the Cylons didn't ask that question because they were humanity's 'children'. As children betrayed, they never had to feel guilty. Being basically immortal, life stretched on as did guilt, in a way it doesn't when you can reach the end of line all too soon.
Caprica was the first casulty! But whoa if Gina was on Pegaus at that time, how many other models died in the attacks on the twelve worlds?
And that doesn't preclude the wonderfully complex and interesting tales of hybridity we get from Hera, from the Final Five, even from Laura with her Magical Baby Blood. In fact those tales are more interesting if the Cylon are...alien.
I want to know those tales! And the thing of it all, is I feel we are running out of time to tell them. :-(
So I take it you like the Sixes, huh? :-) See, I feel we got a lot of the Sixes this season. Not Caprica, per se. But we got Natalie and PTSD!Six and even a little Head!Six. And Natalie! Natalie as leader. She was awesome, I do not understand why she had to die.
But I'm okay about the lack of Sixes if it makes you make vids! Yay!
Six is always important. We have to keep an eye out on her too. Actually, all of the Sixes. :-)
no subject
Date: 2008-08-25 10:27 am (UTC)See, I think the reason why I'm so irked about the constant "we have to be worthy of surviving" schtick we get from Bill (or at least we used to in S3) is that I think the show does a really good job of this most of the time.
Because it makes me question my preconceptions. So, for instance, I absolutely agree that survival is no excuse to become a monster because then you haven't survived. Cain is proof of this. But that said, I also don't think that you have to prove your worthiness to survive. Survival is an inalienable right. But one sometimes you have to fight for.
So, for instance, when they were considering unleashing the Cylon plague before Helo killed the infected prisoners on the sly, I really didn't have much sympathy for Adama's position, and I basically was siding with Roslin (although I'd also note that the show didn't give us any reason to believe that it would actually do more than wipe out a couple dozen basestars at most). Because "we have to be worthy of surviving," is an absolutist argument in a situation where absolutes don't exist. Neither Roslin nor Adama wants to become Cain, but Roslin had an extremely potent point about being okay with history judging her because that would mean this all survived into history.
All I can really say for sure is, every time Adama argues against something for some nebulous reason like, "we have to be worthy of surviving," I want to smack him upside the head and say, "OKAY, WE'LL ALL JUST SIT HERE AND WAIT TO DIE THEN, SHALL WE?" because it puts everything into a binary context of Cain vs Pacifism, and even as a hippy pacifist, I know stuff ain't always that simple?
Blargh, see, this is what this show does to my brain. I'm sorry, I'm rambling incoherently now, and I'll stop.
But I did have something else thing to add! Firstly Sixes! Yes, we did get awesome Sixness with Natalie, and seeing Six in a different context was amazing. But I'm still sad that every time we might end up with more Caprica she's sidelined. First by Head!Six then by D'Anna, now by Natalie. It's not that I'd want to get rid of any of those characters or cut their screentime: they're all awesome. I just find it an entertaining meta-commentary on how forgotten Caprica is in-show. ;)
And Natalie! Natalie as leader. She was awesome, I do not understand why she had to die.
I do. I didn't understand for a while and I was very sad, but then I got it. And if anything, it made me sadder, even though I decided it was a legitimate creative deicision.
Natalie chose for the Cylon and she chose death. For every single one of them. Forever. That's massive. To quote Kendra, and to get at a strong recurring theme in the show - "You make your choices and you live with them, and in the end, you are those choices."
Natalie chose death for her entire race. You can't make that kind of a decision and not go first.
She claimed that for their lives to have any meaning, they had to die. So she did.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-25 03:17 pm (UTC)Not incoherent, I agree with you! Middle ground, sometimes this show lacks middle ground. There is something between Cain and Pacifism. Maybe Lee will find it. I don't know. I hope they find it.
Natalie chose death for her entire race. You can't make that kind of a decision and not go first.
Wow. You mean since she worked to destroy the Hub? She also choice trust too, trust that the humans wouldn't take advantage of the Cylons' newly mortal status. A martyr for her cause, she knew the possibility of death.
Oh, this reminds me of the moment in "Handlebars" where it says, "I can lead a nation with a microphone." Natalie in front of the quorum was a moment better in the vid, than when it happened on the show. The whole video made the Revelations episode (and other later eps in season 4.0) much better for me. Natalie leading nations. That's her. It makes me wonder, what sacrifices will the humans have to make? Laura Roslin is dying, dying for what? What she will choose for her race?
Mortality does give life meaning. But trust? I want to believe that the two sides can build that. I want to but deep down I don't. If the show is going that route, it's going to have to be extra-convincing and written VERY WELL for me to buy it. Which would be awesome. We'll see. :-)
no subject
Date: 2008-09-27 06:07 am (UTC)I did gather a few thoughts here on Caprica and Head!Six. A bit rambly, though.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-26 04:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-27 10:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-26 05:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-27 10:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-28 08:33 pm (UTC)I disagree that Athena "couldn't bear" to kill Three on New Caprica. The way I interpreted the scene, Athena had no way of killing the Three and making it permanent. Thus, incapacitating her rather than killing her was the choice least likely to blow the whole evacuation plan. However, I do agree that Athena thought D'Anna was being needlessly cruel by bringing up Hera, and I suspect Athena chose to shoot her in the kneecaps precisely because it was the best way she could get back at her. Kneecapping is supposedly THE most painful method of incapacitating someone, and Athena would've known that she was condemning D'Anna to several hours of agony. So I don't think Athena's changed that much between "Exodus" and "Guess What's Coming to Dinner". At the time she shot D'Anna she simply had fewer options than she did when she shot Natalie. Besides, we've seen her kill someone permanently as early as Season 2, when she double-crossed Zarek's henchman on Kobol and killed him with the gun he gave her. She never seemed to suffer any pangs of conscience over that.
Now, one could argue that permanently killing a fellow Cylon is much graver morally than killing a human (at any rate, the average Cylon would probably see it that way, although humans would beg to differ). Zarek's henchman (so forgettable I can't even remember his name) was just a human traitor she barely knew, and who was trying to manipulate her into doing his dirty work. Natalie, however, is family. Estranged, but family nonetheless, so it's a much more personal murder. But again, I don't think it's a new development. A few episodes after she kneecaps D'Anna, permanent Cylon death becomes an issue for the first time, and she goes along with the genocide plan with no resistance. Arguably, if she'd had the opportunity to kill D'Anna permanently back on New Caprica, she might well have taken it.
I guess I agree with almost everything you say, but I frame it in a less oppositional way. Maybe because I:
a) adore both the Sixes and the Eights
b) have always found Six (or at least certain versions of her) at least quasi-sympathetic, even going back to Season 1.
That said, I hope you're right that the show is going in that direction, not simplistically having made Caprica Six "bad" and Athena "good", then flipping and simplistically making Caprica "good" and Athena "bad", but continuing to blur those lines and make them both complex, imperfect personalities. I don't want Athena to become a villain, but I would like the show to explore that ruthless side of her, the one she's always had in canon, but which has always been downplayed by the show prior to "Guess What's COming to Dinner". What I definitely DON'T want is for the show to take the lazy way out and just turn her bad offscreen, like they did with Boomer in Season 3.
So, in conclusion, utterly brilliant analysis, and I have to get over my kneejerk "Well, she's not THAT bad" defensive reaction re: Athena. And yes, I realise you're recounting the narrative the show is telling, but I get defensive anyway. I also get defensive about Caprica Six being woefully underused, and many other things.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-31 02:47 pm (UTC)In season four she's out for blood, her initial response to her sisters is to be disgusted with them for being weak when they ask for her leadership - and even if she has a point she basically just tells them to get lost, to the point that it's Sam with all his fear, terror and ambivalence about being a cylon who reaches out to the dying Eight in the Hybrid's chamber because for some reason Athena can't. That, to me, was...really painful to watch.
To be honest with you, I also had a kneejerk "she's not that bad," reaction to Athena because I really didn't want to believe this about her and it was only Faith and Guess What's Coming to Dinner that really made it unavoidable to me how much pain Athena is in.
I also tend to get very defensive about the underuse of Caprica Six to the point that I vidded it so I totally understand where you're coming from there.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't think that they'll go for anything as simplistic as a reversal of the "good" and "bad" stereotypes because it was never that clean cut in the first place. I think that the show itself was always significantly ambiguous in terms of the Sixes' evilness and the Eights' trustworthiness even in the first season and a strict dualist approach to them was only ever a simplistic reading on the part of some viewers (though I hope, not that many).
If anything, I'm worried that the writers won't explore this line of development and will keep acting like Athena is behaving in a moderately healthy way. I worry they're not aware how painful it was to hear her baying for her own sisters' blood, like if she leads the charge she can prove she's not a cylon anymore.
Then I remember things like her inability to reach out to the dying Eight and think...that's pretty unambiguous: they must have known what was going on, and I feel reassured and excited to see what they'll do with the character.
no subject
Date: 2008-09-05 04:54 pm (UTC)Then I remember things like her inability to reach out to the dying Eight and think...that's pretty unambiguous: they must have known what was going on, and I feel reassured and excited to see what they'll do with the character.
Bolded for truth.
Good point on the lack of ambiguity. I'd say that as of "Faith" and "Guess What's Coming to Dinner", the writers have officially crossed the line from subtle canon that they can ignore if they feel like it, and right into bigtime obvious canon with future plot implications. I could see it if the dying Eight had been Boomer, what with the neck-snappy thing. But that anonymous Eight was just another estranged sibling against whom she has no personal grievance.
And as you say, it becomes obvious that Athena is in massive emotional pain. I mean, she didn't derive any satisfaction from her actions in Faith. Speaking of Boomer, I suspect the parallels between Boomer in Rapture and Athena in GWCTD were deliberate. In both cases, an Eight who's been acting in a maternal role towards Hera sees Hera seems to prefer someone else. And in each case, they kill (or attempt to kill) an innocent, primarily out of jealousy.
I don't think Athena shot Natalie out of conscious jealousy, any more than she was consciously trying to sabotage the truce. The way they filmed the scene and its lead-up did a really great job of showing that Athena was simultaneously out of her mind with fear of the opera projections and capable of malicious intent. She wasn't in a particularly rational state, but she knew full well that she was killing Natalie.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of her pain was coming from Hera. The kid's obviously got major problems, but Athena has no safe way to vent her emotion about it. She's got the triple whammy of:
1. Seeing her child in pain and being unable to fix it
2. Thinking that if not for the actions of others, Hera wouldn't be in this pain (however, publicly raging against the president or the ship's doctor would probably not be wise, given Athena's precarious position. So she swallows that anger). Also guilt at having been taken in by the deception.
3. Insecurity about Hera's feelings for her. Said insecurity obviously is not helped by Hera's attachment issues, and Athena likely feels that IF she'd raised the child from birth, Hera would've bonded with her and they wouldn't have these problems. Difficult to fix since you can't push a button and obtain affection from a small child, just to make yourself feel better. Parenting is usually a thankless business, no matter what (or so I'm told). Add in a brand-new parent of a special-needs kid who's been raised by others much of her life, and it's an even bigger mess.
That need to be loved is a common Cylon pre-occupation, of course. Hardly surprising that she'd show it, too. Incidentally, I'm not fanatically anti-Roslin. But from Athena's point of view, Roslin capriciously kidnapped her child, and then bungled the job of looking after her, thereby handing her to the other Cylons gift-wrapped. And that's still a better outcome than what would've happened if the Cylons hadn't found her.
Which, again, not what Roslin intended, but Athena's the one who has to deal with the aftermath in the form of Hera's trauma. And it's actually entirely possible that Hera would've had troubling prophetic dreams even if she'd lived with her parents from birth, but Athena can't know that for sure.
because i am verbose, Part 2
Date: 2008-09-05 04:55 pm (UTC)And granted, things probably would've been even worse if she'd gone home, and she wouldn't have had Helo. But from her POV, she's clawed her way to where she wants to be, and cut out huge chunks of herself to get there. And along come these Cylons who want what she has, to ally with the Colonials, but they HAVEN'T had to suffer for it like she has, so how dare they try to take what's hers? They haven't earned it.
even more thoughts, because this post keeps me thinking
Date: 2008-09-18 10:07 pm (UTC)Anyway, the various things you say above are a wonderful way of putting it (if I can get past my kneejerk defensiveness). I love the point you’re making, but I think one thing you haven’t really addressed (yet, anyway) is WHY the Sixes are this way. And I wonder how much the Cylon God and faith have to do with it.
The average Eight seems devout enough, but the individualized copies are less so. Boomer’s probably atheistic. Pre-activation she wasn’t very devout in the polytheistic system, and IF she now believes in the Cylon God, she probably hates his guts. No wonder she gets along with the Cavils.
Athena is calmly certain of God’s existence in Seasons 1 and 2, but in Season 3 onwards, God becomes pretty irrelevant to her except when she uses Caprica Six’s faith to manipulate her in Rapture. Bottom line, an Eight’s faith rests on a shaky foundation, and when a crisis hits, God is too distant to have much impact. They need someone closer to home, more tangible to follow and provide them with inspiration.
In contrast, the Sixes are defined and energized by faith. They believe passionately in this rather abstract concept. Even Gina continued believing in God (incidentally a loving, forgiving God), and if her experiences didn’t rock her faith, I doubt there’s much life could do to any Six that would turn her into an atheist. But Gina’s conception of God allowed her to kill hundreds of Cylons who wanted to live in Resurrection Ship and hundreds of humans who wanted to live in LDYB Part 2. Their belief system may be solid, but the beliefs can be scary-destructive.
I think you’re right that the Eights are less generous than the Sixes, but they’re also less destructive when they’re angry. Boomer participated in the Occupation on New Caprica but wasn’t the driving force. She also participated in Cavil’s extermination plan, but again, it doesn’t seem to have been her idea (just as Athena didn’t come up with the idea of genocide in AmoS, but went along anyway). It doesn’t make them blameless by any means, having stood by passively, but they’re not the pioneering type. Eights seem a lot easier to influence than Sixes. They get swept up in events, in other people’s crusades. Hardly surprising the majority of them went along with Natalie’s fervour, then freaked out later when the consequences became apparent.
They’re joiners rather than leaders, which could partially explain Athena’s desperation to be more human than the humans. Being secure in Helo’s love for her seems to have been a constant for years, but clearly romantic love and being part of a family unit isn’t enough. She needs a social circle, a sense of belonging in a group, rather than just to be part of a couple. That’s human, and not unhealthy on its face, but it doesn't work out so great longterm.
So it’s kind of a six of one, half a dozen of the other type situation. Sixes can accomplish great things (using “great” in a value-neutral sense), and drag their whole society along with them through willpower and belief. Eights have a smaller worldview, and are less likely to either kill or save others. Which, depending on whether or not you’re an obstacle to a Six’s grand plan, is either good or bad. At any rate, a Six is more likely to either kill you or save you deliberately. An Eight is more likely to just not intervene in someone else’s plan to kill you or save you. Which isn’t to say Eights are entirely passive, but they are reactive rather than pro-active. Sixes are always pro-active, far more rebellious and individualistic in their own way than Eights who break away but still just want to belong (they just switch their sense of identity to a new group).
Re: even more thoughts, because this post keeps me thinking
Date: 2008-09-19 11:20 am (UTC)At any rate, a Six is more likely to either kill you or save you deliberately. An Eight is more likely to just not intervene in someone else’s plan to kill you or save you. Which isn’t to say Eights are entirely passive, but they are reactive rather than pro-active. Sixes are always pro-active, far more rebellious and individualistic in their own way than Eights who break away but still just want to belong (they just switch their sense of identity to a new group).
And I'm really glad that you're still finding the topic interesting! I certainly am and it was a really pleasant surprise to get such a thoughtful reply this morning!
I guess where I'm not sure I agree is the idea that we can use her religious fervour as a reason for her individuality where the Eights have less (of both).
Leoben is at least as religious as Six if not more so and he's one of the most homogenous of the models. We have no way of knowing, really, if the same is true of the fours, fives or even Cavils because we haven't seen that much of them, but to an extent, their similarities are because we've never really gotten to know any of them. Leoben, on the other hand, is Six's opposite. Instead of cultivating many identities, he seems to have a single identity of coherent personhood which is shared between all models.
The various Leobens that Kara has met might be the same model each time, but I'm inclined to think not. There's a cut scene where one of the Leobens in Galactica's brig - sick with the Cylon Plague thingy - has a discussion with Kara as if he's the same Leoben we always see - except he ends up dead and doesn't resurrect.
Which leads me to thinking that each episode we see him in, it's a different model with the same memories? I don't know.
To break from the Leoben tangent, I guess what I'm saying is, the combination of Six's faith and her personality may be responsible for her fierce individuality, but faith can't be the key issue because there's Leoben to consider plus the fact that in isolation faith is often about submitting your identity and choices to a higher divine power?
And there again, her flavour of faith is down to her personality anyway?
I think that just like any human, the reason they are the way they are is a combination of circumstance and just...who they are, what their personlity is like, and whether that's biological or environmental in nature is a debate that's still raging.
Though I know you're on my side with the awesome interestingness and validity of cylon personhood. ;)
Re: even more thoughts, because this post keeps me thinking
Date: 2008-09-19 10:50 pm (UTC)I think that just like any human, the reason they are the way they are is a combination of circumstance and just...who they are, what their personlity is like, and whether that's biological or environmental in nature is a debate that's still raging.
Though I know you're on my side with the awesome interestingness and validity of cylon personhood. ;)
I don't think there's much doubt that Cylons are people. (Is there? I tend to stay safe in my little corner of BSG fandom, because the wider fandom can get a little scary) Highly unpleasant people, some of the Cylons, and others well-meaning but terribly misguided, but there are plenty of humans with the same talent for malicious destruction as the Cavils, for example. And the Cavils, with their childishly stubborn insistence that they are TOO logical machines, are just as human and emotional as the rest. That whole, "Remember, they started it," in 4.03 was pure three-year-old. They may actually have less emotional maturity than Hera or Nicky (coupled with significantly more firepower), but that doesn't make them inhuman. Just mean.
I actually find the Cavils' moustache-twirling villainy far less interesting than the self-righteousness of the other Cylon models. You've got these people who, objectively speaking might be perfectly nice, if only they didn't have this bone-deep conviction of their own righteousness. In a way, the Cavils are less scary than the Sixes or the Leobens because no matter how Machiavellian their plots are, their motivations remain straightforward: self-interest reigns.
Then you've got that classic Cylon fanaticism, which allows someone to commit terrible crimes while remaining convinced that it's all for the best, even for the victims who suffer as a direct result of their actions. But there's been a good deal of growth over the course of the series. i.e. In the mini, Caprica Six was compassionate enough to want a helpless infant to have a quick, painless death, but couldn't extend that compassion to others. She was doing God's work, and if God wanted her to exterminate an entire species, then she'd do it.
That same remorseless drive, though, seems to extend to other Cylons now. Thus we have Caprica trying to change her society's entire relationship to humanity on New Caprica (and failing miserably, granted, but given the baseline from which they'd started, at least it was some progress). We later have Caprica abandoning her beloved people and knowing she'll be labelled a traitor, because Hera's needs take precedence over her own needs (or those of all the other Cylons). It's the same core of fundamentalism (in a non-literalist sense) that led to her earlier, massively destructive actions, just turned in a different direction.
Plus, we have Natalie, who prays for Cavil's soul, and whose prayers apparently lead her to liberate one set of slaves in order to save another set. Cavil ups the ante by bringing permanent death into the scenario, but he could hardly expect her response. It goes against any concept of self-interest to decide voluntary extinction was the logical next step in Cylon moral development (even if it is in fact both necessary and healthy). For Natalie not only to get her sister Sixes on board, but also the Leobens and Eights, well, it's not something Cavil could've predicted. It's edging towards the suicide bombing of 90% of a civilisation. It also takes incredible ruthlessness, to decide on behalf of people who don't get a vote on the subject that God wants them to be capable of permanent death.
Re: even more thoughts, because this post keeps me thinking
Date: 2008-09-21 09:02 am (UTC)I totally agree that it was an incredible thing for Natalie to decide to do. It's part of what I love about the Sixes - their capacity for such shocking unilateral action, in some ways their bravery - though they never quite understand how brave they'll have to be in the situation they just walked into - cast against their utter naivety and borderless love.
I'm not really much for the wider BSG fandom either so I have only anecdotal evidence that some people still consider the question of cylon personhood a, well, question, but I think I phrased myself poorly. What I meant was, I know that you are also actively invested in their story and identity as a Sharon fan.
It's less that I meant other fans would dispute that cylons deserve to be treated with basic rights or the right to an identity and more that that...isn't the part of the show that interests them? I know there are a lot of fans who aren't hugely invested in the parallel story of the cylon society's evolution the way I am (and I think you may be, based on our awesome discussions here!) and who were really bored by the Baltar Basestar plotline in S3. Which doesn't necessarily mean they actively think of them as non-entities who deserve slaughter, just that...they're in it for the post-apocalyptic wreck of a civilisation not the violently emerging civilisation? (Though I have trouble separating the two?)