I've been gone, I'm back, I have thoughts on Tumblr and Wonder Woman and that damn Space Raccoon.

[beccatoria]

Right, I've been gone forever. I spent the first half of April in the USA for my grandpa's funeral (well, memorial service, he was cremated right after he died, but people wanted to take time to organise a big memorial service when scattered family could all attend). It was good to see some people I haven't seen in a really long time. It was also sad.

Anyway, I came back and then there was a whole bunch of VidUKon stuff to get organised with, plus a load of house-related stuff I just didn't deal with after moving in but before going on vacation.

But also...I don't know. Journalling communities are kind of dying, it feels like. I'm not helping with that, even though I like them better. But they take more time and investment. Tumblr and twitter can suck up just as much time but you feel yourself interacting constantly. There's just non-stop entertainment. It's not me on my own madly typing into a computer. I like the time-sink-grab-bag-of-cool-stuff that tumblr offers and I like the way of easily keeping in touch with so many people that twitter offers.

But I've realised I don't like the way both of them make it hard to engage in wider conversations. Twitter's too brief, and tumblr - it's...far more based around friends running at you and yelling, "THIS IS AWESOME!" or "THIS IS HORRIFYING!" Everything you see comes with implicit approval or disapproval; you don't just "find" stuff, it's always being presented in the context of who's showing it to you. It has a tendency to echo chamber because it's basically people passing around stuff they find cool. Which is a really neat thing about it. Until you...don't agree with what people are saying. Then it becomes really hard both because tumblr also has a terrible format for longer discussion and because culturally, I don't really feel it's built for it. It's built for squee and outrage and it does those things really well as group activities. In forums people react to things with words - things that aren't necessarily being said by people they already know. In journal communities, people link to and talk about stuff and say "hey this is smart, I agree with this!" but usually with added words. It's a point from which you jump off and talk about stuff and even if it's not your intention, that means you get a ton of different reactions to the same thing, not a ton of identical reblogs. It feels less monolithic.

I dunno. That's my experience anyway. It makes being on the "wrong" side of an issue kind of lonely. You don't want to harsh people's squee. You don't want to look like an asshole. It's hard to say, "Guys I think this is kind of misjudged..." when the thing you're talking about's terribleness is basically a meme. Especially if your point isn't that it's all sugary deliverance.

But also I'm getting tired of feeling like I don't want to say stuff. It's making me as tired as saying stuff and then feeling like I'm being a jerk.

So probably the answer is just to realise that I'm not a tumblr person. Or like, I am, but...not for the talking. I should do my talking here.

It's honestly a little intimidating. Which makes me feel very "tiniest violin." So whatever.

I don't get why people give Marvel so many free passes. That "lol, DC can't get out a Wonder Woman film but Marvel have a RACCOOOOON!" meme can die in a goddamn fire.

How does that make Marvel look good? Why are we using the fact that Marvel are making an offbeat minor-character ensemble movie with one woman, before they've managed to make a single movie ABOUT a woman, as some sort of evidence that they're better at this shit? When they've gotten to a place where they've made so many of these movies, they can do things like Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man and they still choose them over Captain Marvel or Black Widow?

Especially since it seems to have been resurrected with this latest round of movie news. So now the fact that DC may be also doing an offbeat minor-character movie with a token woman (Metal Men) before they've managed to make a film about their iconic female character STILL means this is an appropriate comparison? It's the EXACT SAME FUCKING SITUATION.

I don't. I just don't.

Marvel releases a movie with a Space Raccoon before they have a female lead: sign of their adorable wackiness!

DC potentially releasing Metal Men before they have a female lead: DEAR GOD THE MISOGYNY.

Okay, I genuinely feel better for having gotten that off my chest.

One day soon, you can all look forward to me ranting about the Cap 2/Man of Steel comparisons, but I should probably save that for another day.

(Don't worry, I like Steve Rogers, I wouldn't actually shoot a puppy.)

Comments

[usuallyhats]

Totally agree about the Wonder Woman and Rocket Raccoon comparisons. I think it's a legitimate point to make about the state of superhero films in general, but not to prove that Marvel are better than DC. And yes exactly about it actually making Marvel look bad! They've got it together to the point where they can confidently put out a film starring a raccoon and a talking tree but demur when it comes to one about a woman? Argh.

[beccatoria]

OH THANK GOD.

Cus yeah, there's not just a legitimate point to be made, there's a fucking important but LOL WE HAVE A RACCOON! is neither here nor there? Or like, it is definitely a part of the discussion but not one that makes anyone look good.

I dunno though. I kind of think Marvel and DC have a Star Trek vs Star Wars kind of thing going on. Star Trek fans love Roddenberry. Star Wars fans hate George Lucas. Fandom remembers Marvel's successes and DC's failures. But that's kind of hard to point out without sounding petty because it doesn't make the successes not successes that should be lauded, or the failures not failures that should be talked about. So. Whatever, I think the answer is just to rant occasionally about Space Raccoons and Wonder Woman on my journal...

I'm so relieved you agree on that point. ♥

[usuallyhats]

Oh, definitely! And fandom is so pro Marvel at the moment that they end up getting more praise than they actually deserve whilst DC gets more criticism than they deserve. And while they are obvious comparators for each other, just turning any comparison into Marvel good, DC bad, flattens any more nuanced and interesting discussion. It just means that Marvel gets away with things they shouldn't, and DC doesn't get credit for what they are actually getting right, which helps no one. :/

[muladhara]

I totally agree with you about tumblr. It would be better if it had a commenting system, but it doesn't, and not everyone is willing to install/use disqus. Also I'm willing to bet a whole load of people wouldn't even read the comments on stuff even if there were a commenting system because dear god the amount of times I see something where someone's not read the comments on the preceding reblog and gone off on one about what they *thought* it said.
*ahem*

Also yeah, tumblr makes me feel like I can't correct people or get mad about shit because of the potential to be harshing someone's squee which. I try not to, but y'know, you can't be happy all the time. Also there's a whole bunch of other stuff about tumblr that I dislike intensely and I just wish would go away, but I can't leave because it's such a visual site, and I love it because of that, and sharing stuff is pretty easy. So I guess I'm staying for now. (Also as visual sites go, it works way better for me interaction-wise than Pinterest does because at least there's actual interaction on tumblr from time to time rather than just "X liked your pin!", "Y is now following your Z board!")

But yeah, I think journal sites are definitely in the dying stages. It's a shame. I prefer interacting like this.

(I got nothing to say about twitter because most of my posts on there are garbage anyway!)

[beccatoria]

Yeah, though even if it had a commenting system I'm not sure how that would work with the general way tag searches are like, site-wide, etc.? Because weirdly paired with the fact that what you see is 90% curated by people you know in some capacity, there's the fact that anything you say, if you tag it, has the potential to be heard by a billion people you don't know. Which theoretically is true somewhere like this too, but in practice it doesn't happen anything like as often because it's not...well it's not as hugely amorphous.

But, like you say, it's so pretty you don't want to leave. It's perfect for just wasting time looking at cool stuff, but...but you can't talk. And as well as the squee, of course, there's the outrage, which is often very legitimate (as is the squee), but again there's this...well, I don't know, can you harsh someone's outrage? *waves hands vaguely*

I've never even been to pinterest, but I don't think it sounds like it'd work for me...

I prefer interacting like this too which is why I feel kinda guilty about how easy it is to just float through tumblr and twitter, condensing my thoughts to a few key ones instead of indulging in longer conversation. Man, I should change that. :/

[muladhara]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it would work - it probably wouldn't. But yeah, everything is filtered via people you follow or what you're searching for (because not everyone tags, and that's hella irritating).

I think you can harsh someone's outrage, I'm sure it's possible. In fact, probably correcting someone on something they're getting outraged about counts as that (i.e. they're being annoyed for no reason, or the source of their outrage is just wrong). I haven't seen it much, but I bet it happens.

Honestly, you're right to stay away from pinterest! I find it really addictive because one its big "things" is craft, so I come away wanting to do a million and one things. Also there is a commenting system on there, but it's not built for conversation. At the end of the day it's a link/picture sharing site, and that's all you can do with it.

*nods* I know what you mean. I used to write WAY more stuff here before twitter came along.

[frayadjacent]

I'm glad you posted this -- like you said on twitter, it's hard to say this stuff in 140 characters.

I've found I'm also really not a tumblr person, partly for the same reasons you give. (The other part is that I just have never wanted to take the time to figure out how to really use tumblr, so I end up seeing spoilers I'd rather avoid and reading the same BtVS fights people have been having for the last 15 years and ugh.)

I also like twitter for the immediate interaction! You really put your finger on something, though, with the immediacy of interactions on twitter vs sitting alone with yourself composing a post. Ideally, for me anyway, twitter and dreamwidth could be complementary, but the reality has been that I interact on twitter and mostly only read DW, with little commenting and even less posting. Which is better, from the "don't let journals die!" perspective, than not engaging in DW at all, but at the same time I'm not helping much.

Though, when awesome people talk about journals dying, my first instinct is to shout "NO, don't leave! I just found y'all..."

[beccatoria]

Ah, yeah, I hadn't even thought of the spoilers aspect. I don't care about spoilers at all and sometimes actively seek them out because I find I can enjoy shows more if I have a vague idea where they're going and am not always stressed out about whether I'll be disappointed. But I imagine it's kind of nightmarish if you're trying to avoid things. I think you can blacklist tags? And people generally tag for spoilers? But probably not for something like Buffy... Hell, I know I don't mention spoilers for older stuff most of the time. :/

But yeah, twitter is good because it's just like...random thoughts that pop into your head, or amusing things that happened, or quick reactions that don't deserve a whole post. But then there's this interesting phenomenon where how I express myself becomes more and more economical. Which is kind of cool in some ways but also... WOOOOORDS.

Anyway, I promise to try not to leave. ♥ And we'll always have twitter? :D?

[caramarie]

It made sense when people were using that comparison to make the point that Wonder Woman's 'overcomplicated' back story or w/e isn't an excuse for not making a movie.

It makes NO SENSE to make that comparison as if it says Marvel is somehow superior to DC. NO STOP Marvel did not just make a female-led movie and I blinked and missed it. They did not even *announce* a female-led movie and I blinked. I would not blink on that!

I look at the dates on proposed movies and they just keep stretching out into the future. How old am I going to be before we get another female-led superhero movie? How old will my niece and nephews be? Like, at least when I was a kid I had Supergirl to watch over and over. (Theoretically I could still watch Supergirl, but I understand that would do bad things to my fond memories.)

*epic sigh*

[beccatoria]

See, I'm not sure it does make sense even with that? I understand the logic behind it, but the reason we're so upset that Wonder Woman's backstory is considered "complicated" is tied to the fact we perceive that as a misogynistic double standard. Even if someone thought her backstory was genuinely "complicated", the reason we're upset she's not getting a movie rather than, like, saying, okay, so what about Supergirl or Black Canary, then? Is like...we know that's not the real issue. And if Wonder Woman can't get a movie, who can? I'm not sure I'm explaining this well, but basically I'm not sure you can separate the issues. A criticism of there being no Wonder Woman movie carries this inherent accusation of misogyny, you know?

But yeah I guess, I'm just... I'm worried it elides the fact that there is no earthly reason for us not to have a Black Widow film. You know, your nieces and nephews need better than Supergirl and that Catwoman film that shall not be named. (And Elektra, which I honestly didn't think was as bad as everyone claimed, but then I saw the version with the cut scenes put back in.)

(Oh god, I actually watched Supergirl for the first time a few years ago. It was amazing in its surreality. She doesn't actually throw a single punch in the entire movie. It's also soooooo slashy.)

[caramarie]

Yeah, no, I get what you mean. It's a distraction to argue about her back story when that's not actually the issue.

I've never actually seen Elektra (my knowledge of Elektra is pretty much ... she has ribbons and she is an assassin? I think?) Maybe I should try it. Even if it *was* that bad, I've watched too many Resident Evil movies to pretend that's actually an issue for me!

It's also soooooo slashy.

You are not helping my determination not to rewatch it :(

[muladhara]

I've watched too many Resident Evil movies to pretend that's actually an issue for me!

Sorry for the hijack, but man ain't that the truth? (Though at least they've admitted to doing it solely for the money now because apparently all RE fans are saps and will watch Milla Jovovich no matter how bad the film is...)

[cathexys]

Yes. That! And like you, I'm part of the problem. I think, though, the echo chamber had been developing on DW before Tumblr, the if enough people say the same thing and claim that they are morally right, it's very hard to go against that. Except, on DW you still had the choice to complicate things, to draw attention to side issues, whereas on Tumblr it's RIGHT or WRONG!!!

(I think the best example may be the "reblog if you thing X is horrid" memes. Like, it's a bit like "When did you stop beating your wife?" You can't engage with it in any way that doesn't assert the OP's superiority in weird ways.

I can't do twitter. I tried (I have three twitters to prove I really did :) I feel very left out of fannish convo because of that. In a way, the current archive cum tumblr cum twitter combo has made me more lurkerish than anything since my very early mailing list days. And it sucks! But I'm too tired most of the time to be the change I want to see (and when I try, I get this weird noone's reading me thing, where I post something and then days or weeks later it gets found by my flist as if I hadn't blogged about it...like that happened several times lately and makes me not wanna even try any more...) <- wow, I had no idea I was this whiny and bitter... lol at myself :)

[beccatoria]

Yeah, I'll be honest, I wasn't on DW much during the period I think you're talking about. I was pretty resistant about leaving LJ, so I kind of found out about tumblr and finally got myself set up here pretty much concurrently but I have some idea of whatyou'[re talking about. I should mention that article on the politics of rage that you linked a while back was a very cathartic read.

(I had those "regblog if" memes. I basicaly don't reblog them in principle but then I fel like a jackass anyway. Bah, humbug and all that.)

I do like twitter because it's like an open chat window but...I don't like the way it affects my participation in other places. And I agree about the fannish presence in general. Partly I think it's because I'm somewhat between fandoms, but a larger part is certainly the places I have available to discuss things. I mainly talk on my locked twitter to people I already know and randomly reblog shit that passes me by and...eh. :(

I didn't know I was this whiny and bitter either til I started typing. And then, as I said, I felt kind of, well, stop making such a huge deal out of comparatively minor problems. Tiniest violin and all. But damn it all makes me sad.

I do think it's intersting that young people entering fandom are going likely to be doing so in such an overtly political forum where they will be exposed to a lot more ideas of political activism and equality than they'd likely find elsewhere, but I don't think the overall aggressive posture is useful in a sustainable model of, well, improving the world. It's hard to say that without it sounding like some sort of iteration of the tone argument, but there has to be some way of expressing that rage is useful societally when it motivates peole to take action to change things, and rage is useful personally for moments of catharsis that help us come to terms and move forward as healthier humans, and I feel like tumblr is engaging in the second and mistaking it for the first.

[lunarwolfik]

Totally with you about tumblr and the feeling that journalling comms are not as prolific/vital as they used be. :(

But I've realised I don't like the way both of them make it hard to engage in wider conversations.

THIS! It's so damn difficult to keep track of people on tumblr which sucks a lot and skews potential conversations and ways of communication A LOT in ways that DW or LJ, etc doesn't.

While tumblr is fun, it doesn't feel as personal and connective as journalling. But it is a lot easier and a lot less soul-crunching to throw up pics and squee rather then Big Words That Mean Things. Which can be TERRIFYING more often then not.

...if only there was something that could combine the two into a happy medium...

[beccatoria]

<3 I have nothing else really to say, I just agree with you. Though:

But it is a lot easier and a lot less soul-crunching to throw up pics and squee rather then Big Words That Mean Things

I think the tumblr brand of in-the-tags meta is fascinating. Because it's often basically word vomit about how some tiny gif-captured moment is beautiful and meaningful. In which it's not really dissimilar to journal word-vomit about how certain scenes or themes are beautiful and meaningful, but I definitely think it clearly stemmed more from a) expanding and attempting to verbalise squee and b) gif-captured moments. So, uh, anthropologically it's intriguing (and if it's something I similarly adore, sometimes emotionally very gratifying) but...yeah. I still feel like it's not conduicive to discussion. Cus people just reblog it instead of answering with their own word vomit that slowly morphs into a conversation...