Doctor Who: River Song & The Pandorica Opens

[beccatoria]

I LOVE HER MIND, I LOVE HER SHOES.


OMFG AWESOME.

I haven't really posted about this season of Doctor Who much, but I have been watching and enjoying it. I mean, no, not every episode in its entirety always. But...this feels like Doctor Who again, in a way the RTD era slowly lost, until it was some strange, hyper-coloured, melodramatic mess of empty calories where yelling stood in for character development and character development basically meant everyone dying or leaving so the Doctor can shed a single tear.

But this feels...like Doctor Who again. Except not. But sort of.

It feels like a fairytale. I love it. Amelia Pond, the girl with the fairytale name, stolen away by a mad man in a Blue Box on her wedding night; who helped the Queen save the last Star Whale in the universe, and survived an army of stone angels. A nightmare man comes to play games with her whole world, and she loves a boy who's not a boy - who's a roman, a robot, both.

"Does it bother you, Amy, that your life doesn't make sense?" It's in the delivery - so quiet - such a huge idea. It will take a lot to live up to it, next week, but I'm beginning to think that Moffat can do it. All his episodes feel a little like this - lost, whimsical, ideas from different universes stitched together in improbable cocktails of plot, that somehow hang together.

Doctor Who has a history of building things up in the first half of a two-parter finale and deflating horribly in the second. But I'm hopeful that this is not a curse Moffat will fall into.

It's a...relief to like this show again. Fairytale/myth/adventure story - it's the right tone to hit. The idea of the Doctor as a trickster, a myth, Merlin or whichever one your fairytale needs this week, is an idea that goes well back into the original series. Though perhaps I'm biased - the Doctor I loved best was the 7th Doctor.

His series, as I understand it, weren't really the most popular - weren't as happy or zany or crazy as Baker's. But they had the same feeling of thematics and myth. Ghostlight with all its evolutions, or Battlefield with its circles of salt to ward against evil and the Doctor as Merlin, or The Curse of Fenric - the first evil, the first game of chess, the betrayal of the mentor and the sins of the mother and RUSSIANS. I don't know. Those episodes always felt thoughtfully evocative of myth and idea in a way RTD's era never really was. But this one is beginning to. And if it's a scifi show rather than a bedtime story (a serious one, a funny one, an epic one, most importantly a never-ending one), this show becomes...another camp action procedural with funny costumes.

I suppose we'll see, next week.

There will be some kind of reboot and it will involve Amy and her house with too many rooms and her duck pond with no ducks, and I have no problem with that except I hope they don't reboot too much.

It makes me nervous, to start liking something this much. Don't let me down, dude.


So, I liked this episode so much I actually went looking for like, other reactions on LJ cus I was having a really slow day. Warning, I dislike RTD and his writing style. If you like it, fine, but I'm about to be snarky. Fair warning. :)

I do know that while there is a sizable Moffat following there's also a sizable RTD following. Which I guess always surprises me because I don't get how anyone could like it so much but then I remember that the 10th Doctor basically IS the embodiment of emo woobiness and that parts of fandom probably feel he is god's gift to fic.

What I don't really get is this emerging (and I concede that my investigations have been extremely haphazard, but I've seen this said in four or five places now, so I figure it must be A Thing?) argument that Moffat is good at plot-driven stories while RTD is good at character-driven ones?

And honestly, I have no idea what to do with that, I just can't see it.

I mean, I would agree that Moffat is very good at plot. And RTD used to rely on deus ex machina, coincidence or just plain DRAMATIC YELLING SLEIGHT OF HAND constantly. But the character thing, I really don't get.

I mean, I guess I sort of do? Because basically the entirety of the narrative point of many RTD episodes was to get to the point where the Doctor could have angst or make a righteous speech. I suppose that is character-based? Even if no other characters ever really get a look in because even the companions' ultimate fate will be to get left in various places/states in order to let the Doctor angst? But I'm not sure I'd call it development.

I suppose really, the real bit I don't get is the idea that Moffat isn't doing character development. I don't even have a way to coherently argue this point except to point at the entire show and go THERE, LOOK, LOOK AT IT.


OMG OMG OMG OMG.

Okay. So I have like, an actual, embarrassing problem, you guys. I think I ship her and the Doctor. TO THE POINT I GOT THIS ICON. *criez*

Cus like first of all, I have starting SHIPPING THEM LIKE IT'S HIGH SCHOOL, which is embarrassing in and of itself. But more than that, I generally DO NOT WANT when it comes to shipping the Doctor and people. I mean, even Rose, who I kind of, at least during the first season, at least sort of bought a "more important than your average companion" vibe about? I kind of put down to it being because the Doctor was all post-Gallifrey-exploding traumatised and imprinted on her, plus at one point, even if it was only for five minutes and never mentioned again, at one point she WAS the TARDIS and we know that the Doctor loves the TARDIS (ALTHOUGH, more on that later). So like, I could KIND OF see that if I squinted but even then I found it uncomfortable.

And the reason is that it's just so...icky because of the power imbalance? Because the companions come and go and are often young women and it makes the Doctor look like a sleazebag who picks up chicks far younger than him and impresses them with his flashy ride and worldly ways and then eventually ditches them.

It takes a lot to convince me that it's not better to have the Doctor in a mentor/friend/parental role. I have so much less of an issue with that narrative. Because then it's not that he uses and loses them (like, obvs not in terms of any particular episode, but the net effect, cumulatively, over time), but rather that he helps them grow, change, discover themselves, then move on to their own lives.

But with River, none of these issues really apply. I mean, okay, she's still far, far younger than him, and yes, there's still that power imbalance. But it doesn't play that way for a whole bunch of reasons. River has her own life and doesn't always travel with the Doctor, and she's secure and confident around him and can hold her own in a way that many companions can't, so the power imbalance or the dependency on him for having an exciting, adventurous life isn't there to be squicky.

It also helps that they cast Alex Kingston, who is GORGEOUS (especially in jail, seriously, it was like I blinked and she got HOT LIKE BURNING), but also over 45. A drop in the bucket compared to the Doctor (hell, she could be several hundred a la Liz Ten and it'd still be a drop in the bucket), but the narrative effect for us is to present her as a confident, older woman, entertainingly at odds with the Doctor's current, twenty-something appearance.

I also like it because I feel it kind of...takes the pressure off of the whole Doctor/Companion thing, even though, as I'm about to get to, I don't actually have ANY stress whatsoever about when/if the series ever gets to the part of the Doctor/River storyline that involves actual romance, instead of the Doctor still not knowing who she is, exactly, entirely.

And in the meantime, screw it, they can screw whoever they want (not that they will cus it's a kids show on the BBC, and they don't make them like they used to <-- NSFW).

I just love that it's out there - that it'll happen some day.

I love how important it makes River, but how it manages to make her important because of a romantic storyline, without defining her entire character by it, or perhaps more importantly, by putting her, at the moment, firmly in charge of it. SHE knows what's going on, but he doesn't.

And I am flat out charmed by the way they meet all out of order. I know that they're not the first story to do it. Even aside from the *cough*TimeTravelersWife*cough* there's the Book of the New Sun stuff by Gene Wolfe which I never finished, but I know apparently has a killer rendition of this theme.

But...I love it anyway. Half of it is, I think, the way the actress sells is, and the fact it's well written more than the super awesome idea in the first place. But there's something epic and moving about the fact that the first time he meets her is the last time she meets him - the moment she dies (well, sort of, and trust me, I want her to download her brain into a robot body or some shit, but I can handle it if she never does because: FAIRYTALE SYMMETRY). But also, it's heavily implied that she kills him, someday, at some point, for some really good reason that tears her up inside. (Okay, it might not be him, and it might only be one of his incarnations, but...for symmetry, I think it's cooler if she really kills him - even if part of him survives, as part of her survives, and it's the end of a chapter, not the book).

Plus I just love her as a character. She is just So. Damn. Awesome.

She's competent and funny and challenging and intelligent and unapologetic about all of the above. She's a brilliant archeologist who knows how to break out of jail and how to make her husband heel. She flirts and teases, but it's clear, in every episode, that she cares, whether it's about Miss Evangelista, who everyone made fun of, getting respect in her final moments, or making damn sure the Doctor is safe, and respected, and has the space to save everyone the way she knows he can.

She balances faith in the Doctor with never, ever sitting around to be rescued.

I also have huge, HUGE, love for the fact that at the end of the episode, when she's trying to get out of the TARDIS she doesn't fail. That moment when she gets the doors open, but there's just this wall of rock - GUH.

So yeah, River Song. She graffities the oldest cliff face in the universe, and she calls him "Sweetie." WHAT IS NOT TO LOVE? She's like a glorious mixture of Indiana Jones, Laura Roslin and Sydney Bristow.

I hope Alex Kingston agrees to guest star FOREVER. Why doesn't SHE have a spinoff?


Again, I do not know how prevalent these feelings are as I only know what I know of Who fandom from an afternoon of surfing who_daily, but again, these are opinions I did not see like, everyone expressing? But I did see a fair amount. Like even more than the RTD-character vs Moffat-plot notion. And it made me all ::sadface::

And that's the fact that apparently there are quite a lot of people out there who don't like her? Who think she's smug? And rubs her specialness in people's faces?

Ugh.

If she was a boy, the number of people thinking this would be SO MUCH FEWER. In fact, if it were Captain Jack who broke out of prison to help save the universe, with his So Special Can't Die Schtick, people would be eating that up with a spoon.

She's confident, but she explains things to people far more than the Doctor. The only time she's ever does anything that could be called smug is in relation to the Doctor when it's very clearly part of an ongoing patter of banter. And I don't know how anyone can fail to see the obvious love and trust and respect she has for the guy. I mean, she spends MORE THAN ONE SCENE in her introductory pair of episodes obviously so devastated that he doesn't remember her, and so confused that this Doctor isn't the one she knows and recognises, and like...talking about the one she does with such reverence. (And again, it is props to the writer and the actress that this never comes across as simpering, as needing validation from him, but rather as honest emotion - as someone who loves him.)

Apparently though, she rubs her specialness in our face or something. I don't know, because she's good at her job, I guess. Or because, shock of shocks, the Doctor at one point teaches her to fly the TARDIS and she teases him about it a little. She's too good at stuff! Nevermind that the first episodes she's in is the story of how she dies saving everyone because they miscalculated by going there in the first place. Or how the next episodes are framed by the fact she's in jail, trying to earn a pardon for doing something that is obviously emotionally difficult for her. I don't want to say trying to atone because that implies a judgement about what and why she did what she did, but there's something there, you know? She's not exactly skipping across the Universe, smugly. She's trying to earn a pardon.

And every time she pulls something "smug", like landing the TARDIS, the Doctor usually responds with something impressive in kind. Seriously, I don't get it.

But whatever, I'll just have to love her twice as much and hope Moffat ignores this part of fandom.


So, one thing that I was surprised didn't see more discussion was River's final line in the episode, which essentially, as far as I'm concerned, really cements and confirms that she's his wife (or space-equivalent). I mean, sure, there's room to come up with some other retcon, but at this point, that line means the chain's been jerked so far that pretty much ANY other explanation is bound to be a disappointment? At least to me, though I grant I'm not unbiased.

But basically, I think Occam's Razor applies at this point.

STILL, I have seen an amusing amount of speculation on the internets about who she is, like...there are definitely a lot of people who I think just assume she's his wife (as I do at this point, though I was wary of doing so at first) and move on.

But I've seen...so many weird pieces of speculation about:

- her really being the TARDIS from the future (Whut? I mean...why would she then become an archeologist. The Doctor said he told her his name. Plus then, I know the Doctor loves the TARDIS, but this ends up being like...he married his car, or...the sexy AI program that voices his car...or something. Too many things they say require "from a certain point of view" interpretation for that to ever fly).

- her being the Doctor's daughter or other relative (which makes the "sweetie" stuff supercreepy and again...really only meshes with the rest of their banter and chat in the vaguest way).

- her being some other Time Lord or something (acceptable to me, though I don't feel the need to have her be anything other than human and I'd prefer she stay that way, but equally, what does that have to do with whether or not she's his wife?)

- not really a theory on who she is, but I've seen at least three people wondering if she was saying, "I'm sorry, my love," to the TARDIS. Which like, okay, I liked that she was talking to it too, and yes, I know that the Doctor (and perhaps even River) loves it. And she probably really is sorry that it's blowing up. But, um, way to deflate a dramatic line.

So like...that wasn't intended exactly as bitching, cus people can believe this stuff and that's fine, I just...don't get it? Like, is there a real strong set of opinion that is against River being the Doctor's wife? And if so, I wonder if that subsection of fandom is more from the "no romance for the Doctor!" school or the "Doctor/Companion" school, or the "I don't like River" school, or if there's no pattern at all?

/RANDOM. Done now.


My foray into Whodom also told me that EVERYONE AND THEIR MUM loves Rory. I feel like a bad person in that I do not. I mean, he's sweet and I like him okay and I believe Amy loves him. I also believe he'll never start wanting to adventure in the TARDIS (at least as RORY rather than Auton!Roman!Rory) and Amy will never want to live in Leadworth. And he does the tear-your-heart-out cus he's dying, or turning into a THING sooo well that I ended up really liking his role in this, but when I thought he had really come back, I was...not a fan. It felt cheap, and unnecessary, and really, I just...I worry that he's supposed to represent the idea that Amy needs to grow up rather than find her childhood self again.

Her life doesn't make sense, but it did, once.


Again, I wouldn't mention this except I saw it in some website (not LJ) review saying that they like the "crafty hint" that the visions of the TARDIS exploding had a hand in Van Gogh's suicide. I just wanted to say I...really don't like that interpretation.

The Van Gogh episode was surprisingly emotionally affecting and one of the things that made it so was that he didn't get magically "fixed". He is so affected and overjoyed by seeing that he achieved something, that his work matters. But ultimately...he still dies. He still kills himself. I thought that was quite a brave thing to show - that depression doesn't magically go away. That it's serious. And I know the entire episode posited him as weirdly psychic, but they managed to concurrently treat depression a great deal more seriously than the media usually does. It managed to avoid that negative stereotype that people should just Snap Out Of It. It wasn't enough; they couldn't fix him with one magic trip on a good day.

To suddenly suggest that maybe they DID fix him, it's just then he had a violent psychic vision is...not something I would like. Perhaps especially because the original Van Gogh episode had the mental health advice line at the end of it suggesting they were really trying to deal with that issue seriously.

So. All in all. RIVER SONG. RIVER SONG. RIVER SONG. STARTING TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE NEXT WEEK'S FINALE MIGHT BE AWESOME. AND RIVER SONG.

Comments

[sache8.livejournal.com]

LOL, I like River too. I love how frizzy her hair is. And many other things, but you mostly covered them, so I thought I'd champion her representation of "Don't have time for an hour in the makeup trailer before I start my shoot day" ;-)

I love angst, I won't deny it. My coauthor (who is 1000% in the happy ending camp) is forever fretting over my strange love of sobbing my eyes out at emotional character death scenes, so the various Ten angst stories didn't really set me off. Still, I was almost never so proud of any character as I was Martha when she looked him in the eye and told him, "This is not healthy for me and that is why I'm leaving".

I've enjoyed Eleven for his physical comedy, but I honestly don't think I loved him until the cliffie when he was pleading so heartfeltly to a whole bunch of heartless aliens to let him loose.

This collection of random has been brought to you by the letter... R, I guess. ;-)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

YAY! THE LETTER R! I love it when other people love River!

I'm actually pretty much an angstmonkey too. I mean, Farscape is one of my favourite shows EVER. And, well, John. But there was just something about the Tenth that I didn't really...click with. It's a shame, but there it is.

The Eleventh though, I agree, was wonderful when he was pleading at the end. I think - and I genuinely mean this without my 10th snark for once! - that he played it much better than Tennant would have in that moment, not cus I hate Tennant (who I actually think is a really good actor in a bunch of other stuff) but cus they found a real way for Matt Smith to play to his strengths.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

LJ Who fandom is fucking depressing. Its full of women who love RTD because they crush on Tennant, who hate Amy because she's skinny, but loved Donna. And who complain endlessly that the show isn't like it was in RTDs time becuase, god help us, its INTELLIGENT again.

More thoughts tomorrow. rant for now.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well, *I* loved Donna too, I thought she was Ace. You know, until she got the WORST ENDING EVER that was a giant sexist pile of CRAP that made me so angry I ACTUALLY STOPPED WATCHING THE SHOW for over a year. Bah. I join you in rantiness! Let's form our own branch of fandom!

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

It really does astonish me how out of step I am with the majority of Who LJ fandom. They also mostly hate (well the ones on my Who community anyway) River Song with a firey passion, for really no other reason I can see than 'GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY DOCTOR YOU WHORE!'

It just... baffles me so much when I see a fairly large number of posters expressing disappointment with this season, and wishing it had more mindless running and shouting and arm waving and cringeworthy pathetic attempts at 'plotting', and shitty awful characterisation, and all of the other things that RTD became known for.

I can only conclude that maybe this season has been liked less because its generally been a lot more complex and multi-textured than ever before?

[telepresence.livejournal.com]

Well, semi-intelligent.

I think Moffat is a step up from RTD but aside from Liz 10 (seriously, Liz Ten/River Song spinoff please), I thought The Beast Below was pretty mediocre. I thought Hungry Earth/Cold Blood were actively quite terrible. And Vincent and The Doctor made me cry, and Tony Curran was amazing, but the thing had no actual plot. And there are still annoying and ridiculous "I am more or less God and if you watch the show you notice I always win so fear me" speeches like the Stonehenge speech.

So there's still issues, for me anyway. The biggest change for me is that I just like Matt Smith more than Tennant, and we don't seem to be getting the "Everybody wish real hard" endings RTD seemed to like.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Yes, fair point. Semi intelligent. There have been some misfires. Hungry Earth/Cold Blood was terrible. (And exactly what I expected it to be from the ex-Torchwood writer who penned it, sadly.) Victory Of The Daleks was pretty awful too.

But given how absolutely terrible I thought all of last years specials were, and most of the season before that. (I don't think there is a single episode from those two years worth of Who that I've wanted to see twice.) The step up in quality has actually made me look forward to saturdays for new who again. Which is a pleasant change.

And no, Vincent and the Doctor had no plot. But it was a very interesting examination of depression.

Matt Smith hasn't quite convinced me yet. I still prefer Tennant.

Though in my heart of hearts, I'm hoping the shock reveal of this weeks episode will be somebody opens the Pandoricum to let 11 out, and it turns out to be 9, come to save the day.

[telepresence.livejournal.com]

Oh god, don't get me started about how much I miss Eccleston.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't the set up be just perfect for a Two Doctors crossover?

Cracks in time, everywhere in time. SURELY the other incarnations have noticed!

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

(Plus ecclestone has that Lennon drama that is just starting to promote...)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I also really disliked Hungry Earth/Cold Blood to the point I didn't even finish watching Cold Blood (well, I skipped to the end to watch the plotty bit of Rory's death). Though for my money, The Beast Below was pretty good (Liz Ten being the main reason, yes) aside from the annoying Tennant-like speech about humans at the end, but the Daleks episode was pretty boring.

Vincent and the Doctor was a bit plotless but as a single episode designed as a bit of a different take that doesn't bother me.

The Stonehenge Speech I rolled my eyes at the first time round but - and I did actually mean to put this in my review - thought was rather remarkably and satisfyingly retconned as only "working" because he was standing exactly where they all wanted him: all the aliens were tricking him and he bought it because he bought his own propaganda. I actually wondered if it was a bit of a jab at the Tennant era.

I'm keeping my fingers for an ending other than "everybody wish" next week. (Though weirdly, given the fairytale aspect, I might be all right with it if the ending is Amy wishes because Amy is special because of [insert weird plot twist]).

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

i don't like rory. he's boring and all the episodes that had him in them were not nearly as good as the rory-free eps at the beginning of the season. i don't understand how people can embrace him and not like amy or river. wtf is wrong with people??

the van gogh episode is one of my favorite dw eps ever [even though it drove me crazy that they pronounced van gogh as "van goff" and not "van goch," ugh].

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OMG SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE RORY! I also agree he was in all the boring episodes, though I think that was the mid-season slump and poorer writers more than his character. But still. BORING!

VAN GOCH. :D

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

i firmly believe that rory's presence contributed to the boringness of those eps! he also disturbs the quirkiness of the doctor's and amy's relationship because he makes amy less focused on the awesomeness that is travelling with the doctor and more focused on the blah-blah of their relationship.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Oh god thank you. Yet again I was out of step with most of Who fandom I see on LJ, because they all adore Rory, but I think he's just... awful.

And I *hate* the Rory/Amy relationship with a passion. We've been sold it as this big OTP burning love forever and ever thing, and they have just... zero chemistry together. In fact Amy looked like she was about to gnaw off her own arm every time Rory mentioned that they were engaged.

And I hate how she's settled for this guy who is 'good-enough', who wants her to change.

I just... I do not understand why he is so popular. He's everyman, he's the guy you settle for when you don't think you'll get anybody else. And it really worries me that Amy might wind up with him as some sort of indicator that hey look, every woman really just wants to settle down and have babies.

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

yup, agree on the zero chemistry thing and the overall blah of their relationship. it makes no sense why amy would go for such a boring guy. i don't even see why you could consider him an interesting character.

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

I'm almost one of those people who makes the character/plot distinction? I used to be, full on, because I thought that all Moffat's episodes in Series 1/3/4 were based around plot gimmicks. But looking back, I realize that he did very well with his characters, just not established ones. I still think he focuses more on plot than characters, though, and I'm afraid I'll grow tired of his style eventually. But for now, it's all new, and I enjoy what he does do with his characters. Especially Amy and River. Who I will defend until the end of time. I'd say more but...you already outlined all the reasons I love River. ;-)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

RIIIIIIIIIVER! :D

Yeah, as I said above, I don't really disagree that Moffat is very plot-based. I just always thought he was very good with characters too. I guess I can see why you'd think his plots were gimmicky - I suppose I disagree (or at least never minded) because they were so unexpected and wild. Such interesting juxtapositions of things that genuinely end up being usual or iconic, or, as in the case of Blink, very, very clever? I guess to me, I feel RTD is the one who uses gimmicks to get out of things, when I'd prefer he came up with a surreal plot twist that introduced a forest into a library and left me wondering for 45 minutes how THAT works?

OH OPINIONS. ;)

[chaila.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I SWEAR TO GOD I MADE THIS POST BEFORE I SAW THIS. ILU REALLY KIND OF A LOT.

River has her own life and doesn't always travel with the Doctor, and she's secure and confident around him and can hold her own in a way that many companions can't, so the power imbalance or the dependency on him for having an exciting, adventurous life isn't there to be squicky.

You know I agree with this, but I agree with this. EQUALITY IS SEXY, LOOK AT ME, ALL SECOND WAVE RIGHT HERE. You also know that I pretty much agree with everything you say about her (and everything else, since you indoctrinated me), but well, I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING. She's competent and I love that she knows a lot, but not everything, and that she doesn't let that stop her from participating and doing stuff and trying and figuring stuff out. Also I just find that I really like the Doctor a lot when she's around making him heel, when it's clear he doesn't know everything and is a little wary of her because she's the unknown future. Which is kind of what people should do, complement each other but also challenge each other? Also your shipping is adorable. I mean, I'm shipping them too but I think yours is. . . shippier? It's cuter to me anyway! :D

Apparently though, she rubs her specialness in our face or something.

I think this just means that's she's confidently doing stuff while female. Horror!

Haha "she's the Tardis/vaguely incestuous theories amuse me. Doctor Who fandom is funny.

Also, now I understand better *why* you were not overjoyed at the suggestion in the last ep that Vincent killed himself because of a vision. But I honestly wasn't completely getting what you were saying because this interpretation didn't explicitly occur to me? Maybe because I watched the Vincent ep *after* 5x12 though?

RIVER SONG. I love her mind. I love her shoes.

[telepresence.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, she does rub her specialness in the Doctor's and the audiences face. She's fairly Mary Sue-ish, in that she's a new character who has special skills and special knowledge that most guest stars on Doctor Who don't have, particularly in the area of the Doctor himself. And to the extent that she obviously delights in making him feel a bit uncomfortable about it and enjoys knowing things he and others don't know, it can come off as smug.

Now me, I'm not bothered, because Alex Kingston can do no wrong in my eyes and I feel some of the best people to surround The Doctor with are people who aren't awed by him and who can match him for mysteriousness and cleverness and pulling surprises out of their ass-ed-ness, which is why I liked Romana, and why I liked Captain Jack as a companion much more than Captain Jack as Torchwood leader. But it's not so much that she's confident as she's clearly being written as mysteriously special. Of course she'd have to be if she truly is (The Doctor from the future/The TARDIS from the future/The Doctor's wife/The Doctor's daughter/Rassilon/Whoever). And again, Alex Kingston. If she kicked a puppy the puppy was probably a real asshole.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Okay, so first off, I know that you're not personally complaining about her, so I'm not trying to convince you on that point, but I do disagree with your first paragraph?

I don't think that she's that Mary Sue-ish. So she's competent, but she doesn't save the day more than any other companion in a big two-parter might get to. There are a fair number of parallels available with, say, Captain Jack, who is first of all introduced as dashing and worldy, with his own time-travel and mysterious, angsty past, and later becomes explicitly "special" with his inability to die. But I don't recall him being called a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Mostly River runs around, even with her specialness, talking about how the Doctor will save them all and having faith in him (even if she teases him along the way).

The main think I disagree with, though, is the characterisation of the way she delights in knowing things others' don't and enjoys making the Doctor feel uncomfortable. She does delight in bantering with him and teasing him, but she thoroughly expects him to return the favour. It seems entirely good-natured to me because, as soon as - in the Silence in the Library eps - she realises that he honestly doesn't know her, she drops this entirely and it gives way to genuine concern and sorrow. (And then some teasing when they've established a working rapport, but never devoid of the sorrow).

I can't really remember her ever teasing anyone else that much, and never in a cruel way. I guess her conversation with Amy about whether she's his wife might count? But she ends that by complementing Amy quite roundly. Or when she teases the guy leading the expedition to the Library by making him keep his helmet on cus she doesn't fancy him? But again, he's characterised as being extremely pompous and someone who could use a little lighthearted teasing.

I guess I can see her delighting in making the Doctor a little uncomfortable in a "the shoe is on the other foot now," sort of way, but not as a negative thing, since she is also one of the characters who praises him fairly constantly, even if it's mostly when he's not listening? I suppose what I'm really saying is for me it's the "delight" in that sentence that's important? River Song is often endearingly delighted and delightful. So I partially grant that point but not as a bad thing. ;)

But I absolutely disagree that she enjoys knowing things he and others don't know - and that's where she would be smug, if she could be characterised as that. She's broken hearted when she realises the Doctor doesn't know her in the Library and when she tells him it's his rules that mean she can't spill the beans, she does it very quietly and without any kind of joy or teasing. Throughout those episodes, her feelings about not being able to explain things to the Doctor are, I think, fairly clearly tinted with deep sadness. At the end, when she's telling him he has it all to come - I read that as telling him as much as she dares because she wishes she could tell him everything.

As to others, frankly, she doesn't always know as much as the Doctor but she always tells them what she can. She explains to Amy and Donna more than the Doctor explains to them. And when Amy starts "spoiling" her for her future adventures on the Byzantium, she shuts her up with the same delighted, teasing, "spoilers!" as she does for the Doctor; she's not looking to get any sneak peeks.

So, um, having been really long-winded about it, I guess that's the real point, the last one. There seems to be this perception that she's enjoying stringing everyone along, or that she can't be trusted, or that she's an attention hog that I don't really think is based in what happens on the show? Like...all she really is is unapologetically joyful and good-naturedly teasing?

And sadly, I agree with chaila - if she'd been a guy - see also Jack Harkness - I don't think there'd be half the accusations of Mary Sue or smug as she's getting now.

[telepresence.livejournal.com]

Well, I certainly agree fandom isn't as fair to female characters. So if River were a guy I reckon she would be better received. But Captain Jack certainly was accused of being a Mary Sue/Marty Stu/Gary Stu in some circles, though I think River gets it a bit worse because her secret knowledge is more specific to The Doctor.

Anyway, I like River. I think she's trustworthy to the extent that I fundamentally think she has The Doctor's best interests at heart. That doesn't mean she might not have some significant and upsetting secret she's not currently telling him about (we still don't know why she's even in prison, do we?). To put it another way, I mostly disagree with disliking her for the things she does, and for concluding the things she does mean something sinister, rather than disagreeing that she does at least some of the things people who do dislike her dislike her for.

[chaila.livejournal.com]

Honestly, the "Mary Sue" label means absolutely nothing to me anymore, since more often than not it's applied to any female character who's good at stuff (and it's probably been applied by someone, somewhere to every single female character ever). And anyway, the way I understand that issue is that a "Mary Sue" (adopting it for the sake of discussion!) is a [female] character who has special powers or knowledge *without rational explanation*. Sudden superhero powers! Whereas almost all of River's unique knowledge is explained by the fact that they are meeting out of order. I agree that their exact connection is a little mysterious, and meant to be, but it is clearly also meant to be an explanation for a lot of River's knowledge. Just because we don't know the full explanation yet doesn't mean it's unexplained. I guess she's a somewhat new character (though not by now) but, well, isn't that kind of part of this show? So I disagree that fandom is justified in calling her a Mary Sue.

I guess it just bugs me that people say she's smug apparently because she can do stuff that the Doctor can do. She can fly the Tardis because the Doctor taught her; she knows things about it that he doesn't because he [will have] taught her those things; she has a sonic screwdriver because he gave it to her. She does smart archeology stuff (and shows up in situations where those skills are needed and thus somewhat highlighted) because she's an archeologist and, you know, presumably is trained to do that. In almost all other instances I can think of, I don't see her having special powers or magically pulling stuff out of nowhere (she has fun gadgets but it's not like these are magic powers) so much as just jumping in and figuring stuff out because she's smart and confident and just dives in. Which IMO doesn't make her either a Mary Sue or smug. But it does make her a confident girl who thinks she's deserves to lead the way at least some of the time.

I do agree that she obviously likes to tease the Doctor a bit with her knowledge, so to speak, but it's clearly part of an ongoing [adorable] mutual banter-y relationship (she *very clearly* loves and respects him, romance or no) and not mean-spirited "haha" one-upmanship. I think he can take it. Also, I firmly like the Doctor better when she's around to remind him he doesn't know everything yet. In some ways, her knowledge makes her his *equal*, or she at least often *treats* him like one (how dare she?) and I love that. But I suspect this is probably an unpopular opinion in that fandom (which I am not in).

Though we do agree that Alex Kingston really sells it! She's amaaazing. And, I think, really sells the emotional mix of good-natured, flirtatious, smart, cunning and compassionate that makes me not see how people think it's fair to focus on the "smug." (It's like people are criticizing the *idea* of this character who knows stuff everyone else doesn't, without actually paying attention to the actual character?).

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHAHAHAAH SAME BRAIN.

IT'S A GOOD THING YOU FIND MY SHIPPING ADORABLE BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING ANYWHERE. ARGH.

I think this just means that's she's confidently doing stuff while female. Horror!

Yes, I think this is where a lot of it comes from.

Also I'm glad I better explained the whole Vincent thing. I mean, it's not like I'm super upset about it? It just niggled a bit, so I thought I'd babble about it for a minute!

I love her mind. I love her shoes.

I WANT IT ON AN ICON. ALAS I CANNOT ICON.

[(Anonymous)]

errr, spoilers? i haven't watched that one yet and i didn't know river was back

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I posted this over two days after the episode aired, every plot-based spoiler was behind a cut, River's been all over the trailers for over a week and the icon is completely without context. I'm genuinely sorry if I upset you dude, but I'm not gonna start turning this LJ into such a spoiler lockdown that I can't even mention guest stars days after their appearances. :)

[such_heights]

Here via chaila - yay, this post makes me happy. OMG RIVER. I love this series so much, and everyone in it.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OMG RIVER! Your comment makes me happy AS DOES YOUR ICON. <3

\o/

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

I'm playing catch-up, and we've already talked about most of this, but *draws hearts around this post anyway* <3<3<3

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

*draws hearts around you and your love for River Song!*

[captaindove.livejournal.com]

I can't even remember how I got to this post now, but I think I need you on my flist. All the River love, the not-so-much-love for the RTD era AND you haven't fallen for Rory? This post is a thing of beauty. I could use some more awesome Doctor Who fans around.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hi! :D Welcome! :)

I do indeed love River like CAKE and RAINBOWS and MAKING A DALEK BEG FOR MERCY. <3 And "not-so-much-love" is probably the most hilariously understated way of describing my reaction to much of the RTD era ever. ;)

The Rory thing is complicated. I still haven't fallen for him, but The Big Bang certainly made me feel a lot less actively antagonistic towards him when it became clear that he was going to grow up in a way that included realising Upper Leadworth wasn't the way to go, so, me and Rory are cool with each other now, but I still don't understand the epic crush most of fandom has on him, no.

I'm really glad you liked the post!

Per my userinfo anyone's welcome to friend or unfriend whenever. I don't always friend back immediately - I hope that's okay, but understand if now. It's not a reflection on how much I love getting to know new people!