Okay, so first off, I know that you're not personally complaining about her, so I'm not trying to convince you on that point, but I do disagree with your first paragraph?
I don't think that she's that Mary Sue-ish. So she's competent, but she doesn't save the day more than any other companion in a big two-parter might get to. There are a fair number of parallels available with, say, Captain Jack, who is first of all introduced as dashing and worldy, with his own time-travel and mysterious, angsty past, and later becomes explicitly "special" with his inability to die. But I don't recall him being called a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Mostly River runs around, even with her specialness, talking about how the Doctor will save them all and having faith in him (even if she teases him along the way).
The main think I disagree with, though, is the characterisation of the way she delights in knowing things others' don't and enjoys making the Doctor feel uncomfortable. She does delight in bantering with him and teasing him, but she thoroughly expects him to return the favour. It seems entirely good-natured to me because, as soon as - in the Silence in the Library eps - she realises that he honestly doesn't know her, she drops this entirely and it gives way to genuine concern and sorrow. (And then some teasing when they've established a working rapport, but never devoid of the sorrow).
I can't really remember her ever teasing anyone else that much, and never in a cruel way. I guess her conversation with Amy about whether she's his wife might count? But she ends that by complementing Amy quite roundly. Or when she teases the guy leading the expedition to the Library by making him keep his helmet on cus she doesn't fancy him? But again, he's characterised as being extremely pompous and someone who could use a little lighthearted teasing.
I guess I can see her delighting in making the Doctor a little uncomfortable in a "the shoe is on the other foot now," sort of way, but not as a negative thing, since she is also one of the characters who praises him fairly constantly, even if it's mostly when he's not listening? I suppose what I'm really saying is for me it's the "delight" in that sentence that's important? River Song is often endearingly delighted and delightful. So I partially grant that point but not as a bad thing. ;)
But I absolutely disagree that she enjoys knowing things he and others don't know - and that's where she would be smug, if she could be characterised as that. She's broken hearted when she realises the Doctor doesn't know her in the Library and when she tells him it's his rules that mean she can't spill the beans, she does it very quietly and without any kind of joy or teasing. Throughout those episodes, her feelings about not being able to explain things to the Doctor are, I think, fairly clearly tinted with deep sadness. At the end, when she's telling him he has it all to come - I read that as telling him as much as she dares because she wishes she could tell him everything.
As to others, frankly, she doesn't always know as much as the Doctor but she always tells them what she can. She explains to Amy and Donna more than the Doctor explains to them. And when Amy starts "spoiling" her for her future adventures on the Byzantium, she shuts her up with the same delighted, teasing, "spoilers!" as she does for the Doctor; she's not looking to get any sneak peeks.
So, um, having been really long-winded about it, I guess that's the real point, the last one. There seems to be this perception that she's enjoying stringing everyone along, or that she can't be trusted, or that she's an attention hog that I don't really think is based in what happens on the show? Like...all she really is is unapologetically joyful and good-naturedly teasing?
And sadly, I agree with chaila - if she'd been a guy - see also Jack Harkness - I don't think there'd be half the accusations of Mary Sue or smug as she's getting now.
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Date: 2010-06-22 04:57 pm (UTC)I don't think that she's that Mary Sue-ish. So she's competent, but she doesn't save the day more than any other companion in a big two-parter might get to. There are a fair number of parallels available with, say, Captain Jack, who is first of all introduced as dashing and worldy, with his own time-travel and mysterious, angsty past, and later becomes explicitly "special" with his inability to die. But I don't recall him being called a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Mostly River runs around, even with her specialness, talking about how the Doctor will save them all and having faith in him (even if she teases him along the way).
The main think I disagree with, though, is the characterisation of the way she delights in knowing things others' don't and enjoys making the Doctor feel uncomfortable. She does delight in bantering with him and teasing him, but she thoroughly expects him to return the favour. It seems entirely good-natured to me because, as soon as - in the Silence in the Library eps - she realises that he honestly doesn't know her, she drops this entirely and it gives way to genuine concern and sorrow. (And then some teasing when they've established a working rapport, but never devoid of the sorrow).
I can't really remember her ever teasing anyone else that much, and never in a cruel way. I guess her conversation with Amy about whether she's his wife might count? But she ends that by complementing Amy quite roundly. Or when she teases the guy leading the expedition to the Library by making him keep his helmet on cus she doesn't fancy him? But again, he's characterised as being extremely pompous and someone who could use a little lighthearted teasing.
I guess I can see her delighting in making the Doctor a little uncomfortable in a "the shoe is on the other foot now," sort of way, but not as a negative thing, since she is also one of the characters who praises him fairly constantly, even if it's mostly when he's not listening? I suppose what I'm really saying is for me it's the "delight" in that sentence that's important? River Song is often endearingly delighted and delightful. So I partially grant that point but not as a bad thing. ;)
But I absolutely disagree that she enjoys knowing things he and others don't know - and that's where she would be smug, if she could be characterised as that. She's broken hearted when she realises the Doctor doesn't know her in the Library and when she tells him it's his rules that mean she can't spill the beans, she does it very quietly and without any kind of joy or teasing. Throughout those episodes, her feelings about not being able to explain things to the Doctor are, I think, fairly clearly tinted with deep sadness. At the end, when she's telling him he has it all to come - I read that as telling him as much as she dares because she wishes she could tell him everything.
As to others, frankly, she doesn't always know as much as the Doctor but she always tells them what she can. She explains to Amy and Donna more than the Doctor explains to them. And when Amy starts "spoiling" her for her future adventures on the Byzantium, she shuts her up with the same delighted, teasing, "spoilers!" as she does for the Doctor; she's not looking to get any sneak peeks.
So, um, having been really long-winded about it, I guess that's the real point, the last one. There seems to be this perception that she's enjoying stringing everyone along, or that she can't be trusted, or that she's an attention hog that I don't really think is based in what happens on the show? Like...all she really is is unapologetically joyful and good-naturedly teasing?
And sadly, I agree with chaila - if she'd been a guy - see also Jack Harkness - I don't think there'd be half the accusations of Mary Sue or smug as she's getting now.