Thoughts on "On the Prowl" [VVC vid] and wider fandom.

[beccatoria]

I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea to post this (all the best posts start this way...) but in the interests of not having my head explode with thinking, I figured why not. I was going to flock it but that seemed kind of cowardly. Not that I feel particularly brave right now. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but...I have an opinion, so I'm going to try and state it, hopefully without it seeming like I'm the type of person who likes burning kittens for fun.

I would also like to acknowledge that my opinion is based on the discussions I've seen around fandom regarding this vid, but I would be shocked if that were anything approaching exhaustive. If I've missed anything or am labouring under some misapprehension, I apologise and welcome further information.

So, to get on with it, On the Prowl is a VVC vid that got heavily recced around fandom, so I watched it. It deals with the sexualisation of violence against men, and was completed for the "self-portrait" challenge.

When I first saw it, it didn't really connect with me, basically because that's not a portrait of me, or of an area of fandom I find particularly interesting. I don't find men getting beaten up hot, and generally I identify with and am more invested in female characters. Which was fine, because I know that there is a large chunk of fandom that likes pretty boys and hurt/comfort and that's who this vid was for. But I didn't get it, and frankly, wasn't sure I was well-enough versed in the tropes and "language" of that section of fandom to be equipped to get all its nuances. Which again, is as it should be - I certainly don't expect every vid I love to mean something equally deep and compelling to someone unfamiliar with either the source or the fandom to which it's speaking. This is especially true with meta vids which are often part of, or in response to, larger conversations.

So, that's cool, it's a vid that's not really aimed at me. The reason I'm posting this though, is the general tone of wider discussion of the vid, and the presentation of its arguments and the nature of its importance in wider fandom. And here's where we get to the bit I'm slightly afraid of posting, especially since I'm not a VVC attendee and therefore am not overly familiar with the conventions of that culture either, but equally I want to say something.

In general I've felt the overall tone of fandom-wide discussion has presented this vid as:

1) a socially important issue that we need to examine and that shows a need for self-examination.
2) an Important Vid that You need to watch even though it will be Uncomfortable; essentially, a vid that comments on fandom; an equation of people for whom this vid does function as a portrait with fandom at large.

I have a few issues with this. All of which tie in with some issues I have with fandom and its attitudes to gender generally, so I own that, which is why it's the way this vid plays in wider context that I'm commenting on.

The Socially Important Issue Thing.

To address the first point, there's an awful lot of self-questioning about why brutalised men are sexy, whether this is acceptable, whether women are cast as the perpetrators of violence, whether the shows are allowing or encouraging that. Whether it's acceptable to be turned on by it. I've seen it compared to the flip side of "Women's Work" (a famous vid by one of the same vidders about (arguably sexualised) violence against minor female characters as a matter of course in SPN) in several places. Likewise, I have seen several comments about how this is a long overdue criticism and it's high time we took a Good, Long, Hard Look at Ourselves.

Now, there are a boatload of ways this can spin out regarding gender in the wide world and how chicks get the short end, and whether this is reclaimation, if two wrongs make a right, or if it even counts because LJ is largely female, or if LJ being largely female is the only reason it's a space where this reclaimation can occur and sure, I have opinions on all these things, and I'm not trying to say it's not a conversation to have, especially not for those who watched the vid, and did get it, and are now moved to wonder why they feel this way and whether they're comfortable with it. But I do think it misses a really big point:

Brutalisation of major male characters to further their own storylines and our sympathy for them =/= brutalisation of minor female characters to further the storylines and our sympathy for male characters.

That's a fundamental difference in the way most male and female characters get beat up on TV.

So while I'm not against anyone wondering what this pattern of violence to male heroes (or their attraction to it) means, I guess I am very much against equating it with the very real representational issues regarding women as victims of violence in our media. Or that a priority for fandom (which already spends an extraordinary amount of time and effort on male characters - in turn perhaps because of what we're offered, but again, this is another, complex debate), should now be to turn around and defend these male characters who are already privileged both narratively and in terms of fandom's attention.

The Fandom Portrait Thing.

I think maybe I can be a bit more succinct on this bit.

I am in fandom. This vid is not a portrait of me. I am not particularly unique in my interests within fandom. I did not need to see this vid to learn anything about myself. I did not need to see it to know that a certain section of fandom appreciates violence in its h/c boyslash.

Above I detail why I'm not sure the way a certain wider reading of this vid is a valid social criticism of fandom attitudes (i.e. because I do not think the arguments about what this says about the unfair treatment of men by the media/fandom hold water).

But here I'm trying to say...even if they did hold water, I don't think they'd be as broadly applicable as is being suggested in places.

The Other Important Things Thing.

There are a few other things I think it's important to say:

- I have seen various responses to this vid; I absolutely don't want to present the prevalent "vibe" I've been getting as the only discussion out there. And it's great that people are discussing it: hey, look, here I am doing the same thing!

- I really, really have no issue with this vid as a self-portrait, or with people fascinatedly trying to find their own line within it. I know I already said this, but it bears repeating. I really do understand why, to people who identify with it, it would be a fascinating vid.

- I do not want to assume the intentions of the vidders in making this vid. As far as I'm aware it was always presented by them as a self-portrait and I would not want to presume to ascribe any further motivations to them.

Comments

[jo-lasalle.livejournal.com]

Hmm, smelling crispy in here...

I actually think it's a good thought to want several takes on what seems to be becoming a pretty famous vid. I watched it when a lot of the VVC vids came out, and found the general response to it interesting, because it left me rather cold. Not 'uncomfortably made aware of my Issues' backing away cold, just 'doesn't speak to me' cold -- I've had essentially a reaction very similar to yours, but coming from a different background. I wouldn't say I'm a h/c fan, though for me it varies hugely from fandom to fandom (one with plenty of boywhomping, others where it didn't appeal to me in the slightest) and the thought is less distant than it appears to be for you, and I still didn't come away from this thinking I should Take A Long Hard Look At Myself. Which could, of course, just me be. :-)

(I also, like you, don't have an issue with this vid. I just didn't connect to it at all.)

I don't have much of a point but I liked the thoughts you raised. And I'd like my kitten with mint sauce, please.

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

yeah, i had a similar reaction when watching this vid, i.e. looking in on something that does not represent my fandom experience, even though i certainly like both boy slash and h/c. but i'm squeamish and a fluffy bunnies person for the most part so anything overly violent or bloody makes me run for the hills. even seeing the clips used in the vid in their original context would have been over the top for me and not at all sexy.

i thought the vid was interesting in how it accumulated a lot of violence in one place, and from that point of view, it reminded me of another vvc vid that did something similar for female characters (i'm fuzzy brained right now so i don't recall the name). but i agree with you that the two are not the same because male and female characters occupy different position in television.

[bluerosefairy.livejournal.com]

*throws things at Firefox*

Okay, I had this long and detailed reply to this post typed up and was about to hit send when Firefox hiccuped and deleted it. I think it went something like this:

- I don't see myself in this vid either.
- I don't see what's so "problematic" about enjoying hurt/comfort fic or sexualizing blood and violence.
- I completely agree that brutalization of major male characters =/= the brutalization of minor female characters.
- Their use of the Sam/Gene introduction scene from Life on Mars confuses me because it's not hurt/comfort related, it's not violence for fetish purposes (like the shot of handcuffed!Sam), nor does it have the explicit D/s overtones of other scenes from the pilot.
- The whole "omg I'm a terrible person I like bleeding men" thing doesn't impact me; I got my "blood = badass, blood =/= woobie, violence =/= hot" wiring a long time ago as a result of liking professional wrestling.
- The last shot being of Indy and Marion from Raiders doesn't impact me the way it is supposed to because my focus was never on Indy in that scene, it's on Marion and how hilariously awesome she is.

In short, you are not alone and I'll take my kitten with some curly fries.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

As I don't come from a hardcore H/C fandom, but I do have tendencies toward that kink in my own consumption of media, I did identify with that vid a lot. However it was mostly on a personal level and it only *vaguely* resonated with me as a comment on Fandom as a whole. (And even then, totally not my primary fandoms.)

(Plus I admit it didn't provoke *deathly serious* introspection from me, but it did provoke recognition, and fleeting oh-shit-isn't-that-interesting introspection, combined with a viddergasm for how awesomely it was put together.)

So... do I have a point? I like that you posted this! I've been a wee bit uncomfortable with a certain attitude from some (not all) people discussing "On the Prowl", like this is some kind of Disturbing Social Trend among fangirls that must be addressed, or some kind of a counter-balance toward claims of violence against women in the media. To this point:

Brutalisation of major male characters to further their own storylines and our sympathy for them =/= brutalisation of minor female characters to further the storylines and our sympathy for male characters.

Trust me you're not the first person to say that! I mean, that's JUST ONE aspect of the difference, but as giandujakiss specifically mentioned here: every male character in that vid is The Hero whose pain is in service of his journey, while every female character in "Women's Work" was a minor and unimportant damsel whose victimhood only served to further the plot or someone else's story.

I'm also disappointed in the "yes finally someone has said this about fandom!" attitude because there's so much... shaming going on in there. So much *guilt* from people who feel it's directed at them, and so much condemnation from people to whom it doesn't apply.

Honestly, I do find it interesting that a significant segment of female-dominated fandom can bond and get off to the pain and suffering of fictional menz, and I like that this vid has provoked Thoughts about that. But your post is a good reminder that well-meaning meta can get out of hand. This is NOT a Universal Treatise on Fandom and Female Sexuality, y'all.

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

It says a lot about my fannish circles that this is the first I've heard of this vid! And a lot about my fannish tastes that my reaction to watching it was back and forth between "yawn" and "eww!" Boys: still boring, whether there's blood or not.

On the other hand, I do see what the vid is trying to do, and I know the audience at which it is aimed, and I see why it would be an effective way to poke at the proclivities of that audience. But I can't quite manage to work up a strong opinion about any of it, I'm afraid.

Meanwhile, back I go to the world of female character-centred fandom. :)

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

What an interesting post. I read your post because I just rewatched On the Prowl yesterday. Someone in a comment to a recent post asked me about it and I always rewatch a vid that I link to.

I didn't realize that so much discussion had been going on about the vid. I have to say I was much more interested in the VVC vid, Stay Awake, about women than this one. Mostly, I haven't watched a lot of the shows or movies in On the Prowl so I didn't know all of the male characters.

It took a while for me to understand the 'self-portrait' part of On the Prowl but there can be such a broad definition of self-portraits. While this particular vid may not represent me, I do remember feeling this way watching shows sometimes. When I watched Dollhouse I remember feeling this way. The show made me so uncomfortable at first and at a certain point I began to wonder if I was sexualizing women and violence against women just by watching the show. I ended up liking Dollhouse but I didn't always feel comfortable liking it. It was an interesting relationship I had with that show.

Maybe that's how others feel about hurt/comfort and watching bleeding men. Uncomfortable but unable to not watch, either. Maybe even titallated by it too. Hey, again it's not me but to each their own.

I recently had a series in my journal about films about alien-human hybrids. One commenter on my list remarked that she was uncomfortable with such storylines because what of what was done to women to get those hybrids. I'm fascinated by those stories but uncomfortable what such stories do to women too. Maybe that's how some fans feel about On The Prowl? I can't speak for them, but I wonder.

brutalisation of minor female characters to further the storylines and our sympathy for male characters
Or brutalization of major female characters to further the storylines and our sympathy for male characters. You make an interesting point. One self portrait-like question I ask myself is not just about the fetishizing/victimization of women furthering sympathy for male characters, but 1) Why do I watch such things? and 2) Doesn't it further the writers' agendas, and what exactly are those agendas?

Do people write such things because they think the audience wants to see it? Or does the audience watch it because people write it and put it on screen? Hmm.

[chaila.livejournal.com]

I love this post! I would co-sign it, but I feel that would be presumptuous because I could never have been half so cogent. You do a great job being clear about what you're criticizing and what you're not. My reaction was much the same. Initially: bored, this vid is not about me and has nothing to say to me. But then I started seeing all the recs and discussion, but even so, I sort of am used to people in fandom conflating "fandom" with "slash" or "boy-focused stuff", so it wasn't really until I started seeing discussion or comments about how It's About Time We Started Talking About This that I got a little disturbed. It's one thing that there are apparently a lot of people to whom this vid and discussion is interesting and I would never want to tell people not to explore this if it's interesting to them, but the presentation of it as an endemic social issue (even in fandom) kind of makes me want to poke my eyes out. Probably this is a bad analogy, but I sort of feel like it's those people who say "but women sometimes hit men too!" in discussions about domestic violence. Like, okay, sure that does happen sometimes and it's bad and should be dealt with in those individual instances. But it is not an endemic social issue at all on par with the reverse and talking about it like it is is just incredibly dismissive of the real issue, which is that our society does not at all appropriately deal with violence against women. The same point is that there are huge issues with representation of women in media and violence against women in media, and flipping it and making it about violence against men does NOT make it the same issue in the least.

And I admit that partly I just deeply resent being told that this is something I Need To See, even if it makes me uncomfortable. I think mostly it's because, again, I do get tired of the conflation of "fandom" or even "female space in fandom" with boycentricness, what that vid ACTUALLY makes me think is the real issue worthy of discussion (or at least one that deserves at least as much attention) is why so much of fandom is focused on the boys at all, torture porning them or not. Why, to use an easy example, fandom can have so much discussion about how sexist SPN is and then...go back to making slash vids and reclaiming Sam and Dean. Because the tropes on display in that vid and the fannish proclivities it relates to are all still about boys. And now, what the discussion of On the Prowl has done is suggest that it's now time for fandom generally to focus on *meta* energies on the boys too and on its treatment of *men*. Which I think is a problematic statement, and that's what the vid and reaction makes me want to talk about.

[emmiere.livejournal.com]

This is interesting to read because, like pellucid, I hadn't actually heard of this vid before now. And it's very well put together and, as far as I can tell, seems to do an excellent job at what it aims to do, but I don't think it would have left a large impression on me without the discussion (which I only know a very, very small part of now). Vaguely fascinating to me--yet quickly crossing my personal comfort zone of violence and 'ew'--as something a large part of fandom is into that isn't part of my general experience though. I'm not sure I have the energy right now to pick through it more, since by being determinedly ignorant I don't yet feel any fandom pressure to Look Inward, but I like your thoughts, you. ;)

I also like how you navigate between talking about points of the debate and presuming intentions. Kittens might survive another day, hurrah!

ETA: All of which sounds very waffly, but to the extent I know what the hell I'm talking about at any given time, I agree and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad you wrote about this as a different perspective on the vid (which I totally loved as a con experience vid--I doubt I'd have enjoyed it nearly so much at home but it was fascinating to be in the live audience for it). I do think it was an important vid for the Vividcon audience (which comes originally from the heartland of slash fandom), and as someone who's been in slash fandom (and even betas a m/m slave AU) for many years, I found it powerful and cathartic to have the issue explored. Also, personally I do come across a lot of hypocritical attidues in fandom (and not just slash fandom) vis a vis torture and consent issues for men versus women.

That said, I am glad someone is saying 'this is not a reflection of me'. The thing I kind of love most about the vid is it's prompting people to define where they position themselves--even if that's 'yeah, this is not about me'.

I get the frustration with VVC assuming that it is all of fandom. Having been there, it was totally LOLZy how much there was a collective sense that we were at the centre-of-the-known-fannish-world was. And I say that having loved every second of it. But LOL, there is so much more to the fannish world than that, and trust me people are talking about a very small, very specific, if admittedly very vocal/influential group when talking about that vid in the way you describe.

my kink is not your kink but your kink is ok

[metatxt.livejournal.com]

YES! MEDIA CONTEXTUALIZED!!! The gendered service of violence within the source text(s) is a huge disparity, but I think this needs to be applied more broadly to who is being critiqued within these vids.

"On the Prowl" is a critique of fangirls' desires. "Women's Work" is a critique of television writers (mostly male) using violence against female characters as male character plot-advancement. While I see the stylistic similarities, the vidders are operating from different positions of relational power.

Critique vids always play with the dangers of reproduction (the danger being unintentionally reasserting the subject of ire by not effectively communicating the critique), but "On the Prowl" lives on this line, creating a vid that purportedly elicits desire from the viewer while critiquing the viewer for these desires. As the viewers would never be limited to the vidders themselves, I think it's safe to say this critique was always intended to be received by a larger corner of fandom, a corner of fandom to which the vidders belong. So as much as it's a self-portrait, the text of the vid itself, as well as how it is being discusses now, assumes the critique to the shared identity of a community* (singular because I am describing one of many within livejournal).

All this said, it is the critique itself I find utterly unpalatable and the method of sharing this critique coercive and shaming. This vid is an indictment on sadistic desire, questioning whether it is "ok" to feel these desires, and if we are irresponsible by expressing them. What this point fails to encompass is the context in which these desires occur and the common means of expression: these are sadistic desires aroused by media and these are desires commonly expressed through transformative media -- vids, fic, icons, picspams, etc. Characters and real people (as characters) played with in these fanworks are not actual, but representations. AND THERE ARE MANY COPIES. *ahem*

Fangirl sadistic desires and their expressions do not in fact: cause the characters any further suffering, in spite! of the fact that these feelings of desire are not necessarily (though sometimes -- LEGEND OF THE SEEKER I'M LOOKING AT YOU) consistent with canon narratives.

Sadistic desires have their place in the world in an actual non-imaginary playspace, known as kink communities and BDSM. In these social spheres, there is an understanding of how these desires can function in ways that are positive for all involved, under a general guideline of safe, sane, and consensual.

There are enough places in the world that take issue with female desire, and particularly female sexual desire, demonizing all lady boners. Fandom is a place to celebrate and wank off with lady boners.

This vid elicits lady boners and then tells you you're bad for having one, tells you it's dangerous to have one. It's not. This vid is shaming. And it shames on no solid ground, but by conflating reality and fantasy and with no substantive support for its cries of danger.