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beccatoriaOkay. I'm willing to acknowledge that putting on *that* much weight in 16 months is unlikely for someone who *was* so physically fit. However, let's go with it and examine the reactions.
I'm really, really surprised by what I've been seeing during my (admittedly unscientific and random) trawling of LJ via![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
galacticanews.
People are really annoyed because apparently his character has been destroyed, turned into a joke where once he was principled and angsty and buff. Apparently it's not enough that they've made Lee fat, his fatness has to be a symbol of ineptitude and that's insulting to fat people.
Yes, that would be insulting to fat people were it true.
I find myself wondering what people's reactions would be if Lee had played those scenes without the make up. Would his objections have been afforded more respect among viewers? Because they're actually fairly decent objections. And during the first scene where Adama insults him, all he's doing is calling Adama on behaviour that Helo is also questioning. On behaviour oddly reminiscent of when he put George Birch up for CAG during Roslin's rebellion. And didn't we all cheer when Dee called Adama on that? Why is it suddenly reversed when Lee tries to do the same because Adama's single mindedness is affecting crew safety out on operations?
Seriously, if that scene were played with Gorgeous!Lee, I so bet more people would be paying attention to what he's saying and not how he looks.
It's not the show that's said Fat = Stupid & Whiny, it's every viewer who watches and laughs instead of listening. Yes, clearly there is some truth to the fact that the show is saying, "This is Lee Adama's way of not-dealing with his issues." But there's a world of distance between that and saying he's become a completely incompetant idiot. There's also a world of difference between saying, "Lee's whiny, Adama's the awesomest most together and sane person EVER, he SO should have insulted his son when his son had a good point!" and what I saw on screen.
So yeah. There's a chance that the show is using weight as a lazy and insulting shorthand for character development. But I think there's also a chance that we, as viewers, are the ones giving power to a weight-centric "fattist" reading of the issue. And you know what - both of those statements can be true.
I'm really, really surprised by what I've been seeing during my (admittedly unscientific and random) trawling of LJ via
galacticanews. People are really annoyed because apparently his character has been destroyed, turned into a joke where once he was principled and angsty and buff. Apparently it's not enough that they've made Lee fat, his fatness has to be a symbol of ineptitude and that's insulting to fat people.
Yes, that would be insulting to fat people were it true.
I find myself wondering what people's reactions would be if Lee had played those scenes without the make up. Would his objections have been afforded more respect among viewers? Because they're actually fairly decent objections. And during the first scene where Adama insults him, all he's doing is calling Adama on behaviour that Helo is also questioning. On behaviour oddly reminiscent of when he put George Birch up for CAG during Roslin's rebellion. And didn't we all cheer when Dee called Adama on that? Why is it suddenly reversed when Lee tries to do the same because Adama's single mindedness is affecting crew safety out on operations?
Seriously, if that scene were played with Gorgeous!Lee, I so bet more people would be paying attention to what he's saying and not how he looks.
It's not the show that's said Fat = Stupid & Whiny, it's every viewer who watches and laughs instead of listening. Yes, clearly there is some truth to the fact that the show is saying, "This is Lee Adama's way of not-dealing with his issues." But there's a world of distance between that and saying he's become a completely incompetant idiot. There's also a world of difference between saying, "Lee's whiny, Adama's the awesomest most together and sane person EVER, he SO should have insulted his son when his son had a good point!" and what I saw on screen.
So yeah. There's a chance that the show is using weight as a lazy and insulting shorthand for character development. But I think there's also a chance that we, as viewers, are the ones giving power to a weight-centric "fattist" reading of the issue. And you know what - both of those statements can be true.
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no subject
Date: 2006-10-11 11:07 pm (UTC)I think there are several reasons for Lee coming off as the bad guy or idiot or ass here. When I was watching the scenes I felt as if Adama was being shown to be justified and right and that I should see his actions were the correct ones to take. Sure, I believe they do need to go back to New Caprica, but the plan had numerous problems and they needed to be questioned before rushing in to rescue everyone.
In the mini, Adama had Laura call him on his idiotic idea to attack the Cylon fleet. We immediately recognized the logic of her argument against doing that. In these eps, Lee tried to do him the same service, force him to look at the errors in his judgment, and is made to look foolish, self-absorbed, and uncaring. What creates this impression is not the fat suit, imho, but the shoving food in his face and whining about his father's treatement as Dee is working on plans to save the colonists.
However, the weight gain, a lazy storytelling shortcut, does make him look as if he doesn't care about himself any longer and if he doesn't care about himself than maybe he doesn't care about anyone and therefore we can dismiss his issues with his father's planning. I don't agree with it, it makes no sense from what we knew of his character before the jump, but I can see the conclusion being drawn by some. I think the writers/Ron had all these ideas for Lee, but they are running into conflict with each other and the story they want to tell.
no subject
Date: 2006-10-12 09:15 pm (UTC)I agree that the writers probably are trying to make Lee seem more wrong and Adama seem more right than I'm seeing. I agree it may well be a lazy storytelling cut.
It's like, yes, weight gain is a lazy storytelling shortcut, but while people mock it, they're also showing exactly WHY this shortcut works. I've actually seen people say they can no longer take him seriously. And not because of the whining, but because of how he looks. Which I find...sort of sad.
(And yes, I get that a lot of it is just joking humour. I really don't want everyone to be militantly serious about ALL THINGS EVER. It's just...the frequency of the jokes and the underlaying sentiments still seem indicative of a dismissal of Lee based on his weight.)
What creates this impression is not the fat suit, imho, but the shoving food in his face and whining about his father's treatement as Dee is working on plans to save the colonists.
Again, play the scene without the fat suit and his stuffing his face wouldn't be commented on half as much. In this instance I'd argue the fat suit and the face stuffing are linked - it's about Lee comfort eating as a coping mechanism. And yeah, I guess he's whining. Although if my mom had just called me a fat ass when she was behaving like an ass herself, I'd probably want to whine at my husband too. But again, I get that it's a very deliberate choice of scene.
However, the weight gain, a lazy storytelling shortcut, does make him look as if he doesn't care about himself any longer and if he doesn't care about himself than maybe he doesn't care about anyone and therefore we can dismiss his issues with his father's planning. I don't agree with it, it makes no sense from what we knew of his character before the jump, but I can see the conclusion being drawn by some.
Which I agree with and it kinda my point. Whether or not it's intentional, the audience's reaction is overwhelmingly to dismiss his very valid points and I question whether they would have done that had he been buff and angsty like before. Whether this was intentional on the part of the writers or not, it's the *audience* that gives power to this reading of the issue. Because there's nothing *inherently* flawed about his arguements.
no subject
Date: 2006-10-13 01:51 am (UTC)Don't get me started those people. I've been fortunate in that the majority of the people on my Flist who took issue with the writer's depiction of Lee did so because of his attitude, not because he was heavier. Yeah, I don't think anyone likes the weight gain because a) we don't get Jamie in all his glory, b) it's lazy storytelling, or c) a combination of both. But most of us can hand wave that and get past it relatively easily. It's just when Lee acts in a way that makes no sense from what we've seen in the past (like a seeming lack of interest in returning to New Caprica) or, through the actions and words of others, we are made to think he's uncaring and wrong that us sane fans are left going WTF?
In this instance I'd argue the fat suit and the face stuffing are linked - it's about Lee comfort eating as a coping mechanism.
True, seeing a trim Lee eat wouldn't immediately send people to thinking he's upset or depressed or angry or whatever. And, again, it's lazy on the part of the writers and the audiance to draw assumptions. I don't have statistics, but I'd hazzard to guess just as many people don't eat as overeat when depressed. Or turn to other even less healthy substances. I just feel bad for the people who have weight issues not tied to pyschological problems who are being turned into a stereotype to be looked down upon and even mocked. I'm not saying that was Ron's intent, but it demonstrates shortsightedness on his part.
Whether this was intentional on the part of the writers or not, it's the *audience* that gives power to this reading of the issue. Because there's nothing *inherently* flawed about his arguements.
It's hard to say that if Fit Lee had made the exact same comments would he have been looked at differently? I don't know. Other than Adama's hurtful "fat ass" comment, nothing in the script would have had to have been changed. And my reaction had nothing to do with the weight, but how everyone around him reacted to him. I really do believe the show wanted to convince us that Adama was right and so Lee had to be wrong to help support his flawed plan. I think they needed to concentrate on Lee's depression or Lee butting heads with his father and in tackling both at the same time (and doing so badly) it was just too much and we couldn't take any of it seriously.
no subject
Date: 2006-10-12 12:29 am (UTC)If Lee wasn't right, Adama wouldn't have immediately agreed with Lee. But Adama still feels he has to go back and try - he made a promise and he's not the type to go back on his word.
At the same time, it's obvious Lee is seriously depressed. And I think Kara figures into that only a small amount. Lee was already depressed - he wasn't close to recovered when this all transpired a year ago. Roslin not only betrayed his trust by odering a hit on Cain, she continued to do so with trying to rig the election (I'm sure Lee figured out exactly what was going on there). For all he knows he father was in on that too.
In many ways, Lee is an idealist. Not only have his heroes been revealed to have feet of clay, their bodies are pretty damn muddy also. So, that's taken away from him.
Plus, he's made commander of a ship that has become pointless. No cylons to fight, nothing to do but endlessly orbit while almost the entire crew bails and goes to live on New Caprica. But Lee can't do that. He's stuck there. Plus being in charge automatically means the people who were once your friends and peers aren't any more - you're the boss. So Lee is completely isolated.
So he eats. Someone else might have started violently acting out. At least he doesn't do that.
no subject
Date: 2006-10-12 09:23 pm (UTC)Hooray! I'm not the only one! I'm not even a rabid Lee fan. I'm mostly a rabid Laura fan. I just, kinda like the guy and thought, hey he's not totally smoking crack in this scene. He has a few good points and seems genuinely worried about the lives of the civilians under his care.
In many ways, Lee is an idealist.
Again something I agree with. His depression in 2.5 (while poorly handled during Black Market and at some other points) is always something that rang very true to me. And I liked that it wasn't some personal tragedy that drove him over the edge, it was the erosion of his principles and not knowing where that left him in terms of a goal. Ah, Lee, democracy drove you to depression.
But Lee can't do that. He's stuck there. Plus being in charge automatically means the people who were once your friends and peers aren't
any more - you're the boss. So Lee is completely isolated.
An interesting point. He really didn't have the ability to move on. Adama may have been happy living his life as a lighthouse keeper but Lee never really got the choice. At least he has Dualla who seems to genuinely care for him regardless of how he looks.
So he eats. Someone else might have started violently acting out. At least he doesn't do that.
Totally good point. I always liked that his method of self destruction was so...benign. I couldn't see him drinking or being violent or taking drugs or hurting himself or doing anything that was dangerous to those around him. If he were still a viper pilot and if physical fitness were still a pre-requisite of successfully completing his duties, I doubt he would have let himself get into this state. But he's the commander. Chubbiness ceases to matter so much.
no subject
Date: 2006-10-13 01:50 am (UTC)So he lets heself physically go because it doesn't make one damn bit of difference.