Torchwood Is Making Me Cross. Perhaps Fandom Too; I Can't Tell. Help?

[beccatoria]

Torchwood's got some well-problematic stuff going on with race. From what I can gather from my utterly-disconnected-to-current-fandom-way-out-of-date-radar, some people are trying to deny this with the whole, "british racism is different from american racism," thing. Which it is, but not in any way that makes Torchwood less problematic about race.

Normally this would make me cross for generic "people are being dumb" reasons, but it's kind of personal now too because I can't help but worry (from my totally-out-of-the-loop-vantage-point) that a lot of the "brit racism is different" stuff must hinge on the "it's okay because it's got welsh people in it," wank that occured way back.

Which massively worries me and makes me feel insecure for personal reasons because I weighed in on that argument quite solidly on the side of "welsh representation = good and important and probably more important than you can understand if you're not in the uk."

But, you know, I was saying that based purely on the racial make-up of the core team, given the location, the groundbreakingness of having welsh people on TV in big roles, and such, the fact that the producers perhaps chose to include two ethnically-white-welsh characters rather than another character of an ethnic minority, shouldn't, in itself, indicate that it's a show with racial issues. I wanted to defend that decision.

I hope that's possible without defending the boatloads of other evidence that the show, like a lot of New Who (and to a lesser but still important degree, the SJ Adventures), has some racism going on.

I think I'm also feeling emo and over-the-top-wronged on account of being...as I always have been...uncertain how to express my feelings about welsh oppression. Which exists, and is shitty, and upsetting, but will never be on the same playing field as "our stereotypes mean the police are killing us."

How can you navigate that?

Especially when the primary mechanism through which welsh oppression functions is by belittling it as a valid issue, or one which requires attention. By trying to tell welsh people that they ought to shut up and stop pretending to be any different; to quit embarassing themselves (read: others) by making such a fuss. By making welsh people into a giant joke it's socially acceptable to laugh at.

So: I'm cross because racial issues in the media is something big and important that needs to be discussed, especially in as popular a show as Torchwood or Doctor Who, and both shows undoubtedly have those issues.

And I'm cross on a much more personal level because an issue that's really important to me is - as near as I can tell - in danger of being dragged/already being dragged into this and made into a joke/a disparaging excuse. Again. This time in defense of something I strongly disagree with.

And, dammit, I still don't know how to say, "welsh oppresion is real, and larger than most people imagine, and important to me, and hurts me," without feeling - even now as I type it - like some sort of phony whiner; without feeling like a joke; without feeling scared. I mean, it's pathetic, but I literally feel physically scared typing that. Like my flist is going to laugh at me, or defriend me as a giant emo faux-victim. And most importantly I don't know how to say it without feeling like people will think I'm trying, in some way, to suggest it ought to get more attention, or is as globally important, as other oppressions.

I know that's not true. I know other stuff out there is bigger and nastier to whole groups of people and in more dire need of attention. I want to help those groups get that attention. I know that welsh oppression usually gets forgotten or put to one side for good reasons. But still, it's forgotten and so on the occasions when it does rise to visibility, such as now, there's no knowledge base from which to deal with it. No way for people from the other side of the world to realise they're unwittingly participating in it.

I want to be able to praise Torchwood for Ianto and Gwen and criticise it for Tosh's stereotypical "techie Asian", and the habit they have of killing off women of colour (and storing them in REFRIGERATORS; oh comics fandom, I miss you) and for those two issues not to be conflated.

I also really, really hope I'm wrong about what's happening in wider fandom, and that it's a result of my weirdly skewed reading lists and journal hopping because I only know a few places to visit, one of which I know I shouldn't because it makes my bloodpressure rise. And I get a lot of stuff second hand; like references to net-discussions and issues I can't actually find. But I've seen enough of them now, I'm starting to build a picture of what's going on from its absence, and I'm aware of how dangerous and open to interpretation that can be. I'm really hoping that I've somehow got a horribly skewed view of the ongoing "Torchwood is/is not racist," arguments. So...if that's so, and someone could clarify that for me, that'd be great.

Cos then I can plock this and go back to feeling like a nervous, touchy idiot and hoping not many people got the chance to see this.

I suppose in some ways, I'm mad at the show runners themselves. This was our chance, you know? This is like, the first time ever we've had a national show set here. The first time I can ever remember seeing high profile non-comedic leading welsh characters. Hell, welsh RTD DW has been the first time I can even remember hearing welsh extras.

And they fuck it up. Their lazy depictions of race cause problems. Their lazy attempts to make it "shocking" causes problems. It's just...it's just a shame is what it is.

And I'm...really confused. Obviously.

Comments

This is very interesting...

[hmpf.livejournal.com]

I can't really weigh in, though, because I haven't seen Torchwood. But it's been interesting seeing all the radically different reactions to the new season on my flist in the last few days.

A comment by Neil Gaiman about Torchwood just about killed me just now:

[hmpf.livejournal.com]

"yesterday I composed an entire thing in my head I didn't write down about Why The People in Torchwood Season One Are All Too Stupid To Live -- including the astonishingly puzzling incident where someone in 1941 has written something down on paper with black ink (a medium that will last legibly for centuries if kept out of the sun), and, unaccountably worried that ink on paper will fade and become unreadable in time, first she takes a prototype Polaroid photo of it, and then writes some of it in blood and puts it in a coffee can in a damp cellar, because these media will still be readable seventy years later. Why she didn't make a model of it out of chocolate as well, I will never know." - Source: http://syndicated.livejournal.com/officialgaiman/423324.html

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

I want to be able to praise Torchwood for Ianto and Gwen and criticise it for Tosh's stereotypical "techie Asian", and the habit they have of killing off women of colour (and storing them in REFRIGERATORS; oh comics fandom, I miss you) and for those two issues not to be conflated.

i somehow don't see why one wouldn't be able to discuss both of these things in relationship to torchwood? television shows have multiple and often contradictory meanings in them, so i find it entirely reasonable that torchwood's portrayal of race and ethnicity could have both helpful or not so helpful aspects to it [and i say "helpful" here to avoid "good"/"bad", which are such loaded terms].

i can't really speak to welsh issues because i don't know anything about them, but i think there are definitely problems with how torchwood portrays tosh and supporting characters of color.

[(Anonymous)]

the pedant in me would like to point out 2 things.

1 - whether it exists or not, in the form you describe or not, "welsh oppression" is NOT racism, as the vast majority of the welsh are white anglo-saxon, which incidentally is the same as most of those doing the oppression.
instead, its something that could probably be more accurately summed up as "regionalism"< which ties in to my second point.
which ties in to my second point...

2 - when was the last time you watched a british show where a mancunian, geordie, tyke, mackem, brummie, cornish, or hell, just about anyone who isnt from the home counties wasnt portrayed as a comedy charecter at best or, especially with scousers and mancunians, a drug-dealing thug/car thief/burglar?
hell, i remember several years back when birmingham entered the running to host the olympics - they got no backing whatsoever from those in power inn london.
when manchester followed them, and applied for the loympics, they had a far better bid, but the lack of support from london meant thatthey were twice denied an oppurtunity to do this, even though they had actually started construction of facilities, something which hadnt even been contemplated in the cities that actually took it.
(stay with me - theres a valid reason for this little diversion).
when manchester was awarded the commonwealth games, the BBC was showing all the events, but there was much mirth from the (london-based) production team, aimed squarely at those stupid northerners who thought they were able to put on a world-class event - it was obvious they wanted the cameras there to show the north up for not being southern.
the shock of realising that actually, manchester put on an incredible event, which actually ended up making a profit rather than losing hundreds of millions of pounds as had happened just aout everywhere else - i remember one (southern) presenter saying, and i quote, "theyve put on a good show - not bad considering..." - he tailed off, realising hed pissed off everyone who wasnt from london...
and this was on a live sports broadcast - factual programming, not fiction.
incidentally, it was only after the success of manchesters commonwealth games that london decided that, if those northerners could do it, so could they ("weve shown we can put on a world-class event" said one londoner, referring to manchester, when it was announced that london was going for the olympics).

and this is my point - the PTB at the beeb didnt want DW to succeed, so they gave it to the welsh arm of the corporation, in the hope it would fail - same with torchwood.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's any reassurance but the fail I've seen directed at members of my flist about the most recent episode of Torchwood had nothing to do with Welshness at all. In fact, now that you've brought it to my attention, the absence of Welshness is actually quite marked (I even saw someone using a Scottish example).

I think I'm also feeling emo and over-the-top-wronged on account of being...as I always have been...uncertain how to express my feelings about welsh oppression.

I find it extremely difficult to talk about any issue which feels close to home for me so I can sympathise. Remember how defensive I was when I commented to you about racist bombings? I keep nearly posting those comments on my journal and then not because I don't want the scrutiny and the judgement on a subject I'm not capable of discussing with people who won't get it.

but will never be on the same playing field as "our stereotypes mean the police are killing us."

It was once though and there's every reason not to forget that. Also, the Welsh and Scots insistence on a form of multiculturalism within these islands laid foundations which brown people built on. And there're people who're brown AND Welsh too, especially in Cardiff. I think I've told you before that one of my godsons is half-resident in north Wales and is a native Welsh speaker.

and storing them in REFRIGERATORS

Ahahahaha! I'd completely missed the significance of that. Ahahahaha! /inappropriate humour

Oh, and because my viewing choices are somewhat Simm-centric at the moment ;-)

[hmpf.livejournal.com]

Here's two more shows:

- State of Play: okay, it's set in London - but Cal McCaffrey, John Simm's character, is audibly not from London, and could qualify as the hero

- The Lakes: set in the lake district, main protagonist (played by Simm) is from Liverpool

I have to admit that due to my, err, interest in John Simm and Christopher Eccleston I probably see vastly more shows set in the north or featuring northern characters than your average British tv viewer would, though. *g*

[asta77.livejournal.com]

This was a very interesting read. You know I have numerous problems with 'Torchwood', mostly it boils down to the writing and acting being crap. I'm not going to say that being an American, because, hey, so are you ;), makes me oblivious to the Welsh issues, it's more about being *in* the United States, a country that doesn't look much past it's own problems. And that is not just a criticism of the U.S., I believe other countries are much the same way. My point is, wherever we live we have this knowledge of our problems and can be totally oblivious to those of other nations and cultures. I have to admit, if not for you, I would never have known having a show set and filmed in Wales was any big deal. Or that how the Welsh are portrayed is an issue. Honestly, I wish you would get into more specifics with what is bothering you because I feel I am failing to see just what is so troubling to you about that particular aspect of the show.

Interestingly, just last week, I had to tell someone in Australia that, yes, racism is still a very big deal in this country. The reason the topic came up was her questioning a plot point on 'Friday Night Lights'. In this particular episode, a black high school football player goes to the movies with his white girlfriend and young sister in tow. Instead of going to the movies in is part of town, they go to a theater in the GF's part of town. At the concession stand, they kiss, and you see people staring and whispering. In the theatre, a group of white boys sitting behind the sister begin making racially charged comments. The football player, growing increasingly frustrated, then angered by the verbal assaults on his sister, starts punching one of the boys before fleeing from the theater.

The person commented that this scene seemed out of place to her and something that would happen in the 60's rather than today. She then asked if anyone in the U.S. could confirm this kind of behavior/confrontation would, in fact, happen. I offered that, yes, sadly, it does, but it largely depends on where you live in the U.S. A mixed race couple going to the movies in New York City wouldn't get noticed. Even where I'm at in Michigan, I see many mixed race couples sll the time and never see people staring or whispering. But down South? Yes, that certainly could happen. I in no way wish to disparage all Southerners, but there are people down South that still have problems accepting the South lost the Civil War and, hell, we have people in congress that want to erect monuments to confederate soldiers, unwilling to take into consideration how offensive that is to some. And Barack Obama possibly being the next U.S. president? HUGE.

So, after I explained much of that, I'm informed that in Australia, they have their own problems with racism, but theirs is based on ethnicity rather than the color of a persons skin. It all just went to show me that no matter how intelligent we may be, how well informed we think we are, there is still a lot we don't understand about the cultures of others and how something perceived as disturbing by us may fly under the radar of others. All of which is to say that while I may not get your problems with 'Torchwood', I get your problems. ;)

[(Anonymous)]

I find it very strange for a show primarly set in cardiff that the large Pakistani, Indian and Somali Community that live in the surrounding area have not been depicted what so ever.

Tosh is the only recurring foreign character and i cant imagen outside of university students that there would be more than a handful of japanese people living in cardiff.

Apart from all that nastyness what the hell happened to yanto on last weeks episode the total amount of words he has said in all the past episodes add up to about 30-40 and now all of a sudden hes wisecracking left right and center "i know every thing" whats he been drinking?