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beccatoriaTorchwood's got some well-problematic stuff going on with race. From what I can gather from my utterly-disconnected-to-current-fandom-way-out-of-date-radar, some people are trying to deny this with the whole, "british racism is different from american racism," thing. Which it is, but not in any way that makes Torchwood less problematic about race.
Normally this would make me cross for generic "people are being dumb" reasons, but it's kind of personal now too because I can't help but worry (from my totally-out-of-the-loop-vantage-point) that a lot of the "brit racism is different" stuff must hinge on the "it's okay because it's got welsh people in it," wank that occured way back.
Which massively worries me and makes me feel insecure for personal reasons because I weighed in on that argument quite solidly on the side of "welsh representation = good and important and probably more important than you can understand if you're not in the uk."
But, you know, I was saying that based purely on the racial make-up of the core team, given the location, the groundbreakingness of having welsh people on TV in big roles, and such, the fact that the producers perhaps chose to include two ethnically-white-welsh characters rather than another character of an ethnic minority, shouldn't, in itself, indicate that it's a show with racial issues. I wanted to defend that decision.
I hope that's possible without defending the boatloads of other evidence that the show, like a lot of New Who (and to a lesser but still important degree, the SJ Adventures), has some racism going on.
I think I'm also feeling emo and over-the-top-wronged on account of being...as I always have been...uncertain how to express my feelings about welsh oppression. Which exists, and is shitty, and upsetting, but will never be on the same playing field as "our stereotypes mean the police are killing us."
How can you navigate that?
Especially when the primary mechanism through which welsh oppression functions is by belittling it as a valid issue, or one which requires attention. By trying to tell welsh people that they ought to shut up and stop pretending to be any different; to quit embarassing themselves (read: others) by making such a fuss. By making welsh people into a giant joke it's socially acceptable to laugh at.
So: I'm cross because racial issues in the media is something big and important that needs to be discussed, especially in as popular a show as Torchwood or Doctor Who, and both shows undoubtedly have those issues.
And I'm cross on a much more personal level because an issue that's really important to me is - as near as I can tell - in danger of being dragged/already being dragged into this and made into a joke/a disparaging excuse. Again. This time in defense of something I strongly disagree with.
And, dammit, I still don't know how to say, "welsh oppresion is real, and larger than most people imagine, and important to me, and hurts me," without feeling - even now as I type it - like some sort of phony whiner; without feeling like a joke; without feeling scared. I mean, it's pathetic, but I literally feel physically scared typing that. Like my flist is going to laugh at me, or defriend me as a giant emo faux-victim. And most importantly I don't know how to say it without feeling like people will think I'm trying, in some way, to suggest it ought to get more attention, or is as globally important, as other oppressions.
I know that's not true. I know other stuff out there is bigger and nastier to whole groups of people and in more dire need of attention. I want to help those groups get that attention. I know that welsh oppression usually gets forgotten or put to one side for good reasons. But still, it's forgotten and so on the occasions when it does rise to visibility, such as now, there's no knowledge base from which to deal with it. No way for people from the other side of the world to realise they're unwittingly participating in it.
I want to be able to praise Torchwood for Ianto and Gwen and criticise it for Tosh's stereotypical "techie Asian", and the habit they have of killing off women of colour (and storing them in REFRIGERATORS; oh comics fandom, I miss you) and for those two issues not to be conflated.
I also really, really hope I'm wrong about what's happening in wider fandom, and that it's a result of my weirdly skewed reading lists and journal hopping because I only know a few places to visit, one of which I know I shouldn't because it makes my bloodpressure rise. And I get a lot of stuff second hand; like references to net-discussions and issues I can't actually find. But I've seen enough of them now, I'm starting to build a picture of what's going on from its absence, and I'm aware of how dangerous and open to interpretation that can be. I'm really hoping that I've somehow got a horribly skewed view of the ongoing "Torchwood is/is not racist," arguments. So...if that's so, and someone could clarify that for me, that'd be great.
Cos then I can plock this and go back to feeling like a nervous, touchy idiot and hoping not many people got the chance to see this.
I suppose in some ways, I'm mad at the show runners themselves. This was our chance, you know? This is like, the first time ever we've had a national show set here. The first time I can ever remember seeing high profile non-comedic leading welsh characters. Hell, welsh RTD DW has been the first time I can even remember hearing welsh extras.
And they fuck it up. Their lazy depictions of race cause problems. Their lazy attempts to make it "shocking" causes problems. It's just...it's just a shame is what it is.
And I'm...really confused. Obviously.
Normally this would make me cross for generic "people are being dumb" reasons, but it's kind of personal now too because I can't help but worry (from my totally-out-of-the-loop-vantage-point) that a lot of the "brit racism is different" stuff must hinge on the "it's okay because it's got welsh people in it," wank that occured way back.
Which massively worries me and makes me feel insecure for personal reasons because I weighed in on that argument quite solidly on the side of "welsh representation = good and important and probably more important than you can understand if you're not in the uk."
But, you know, I was saying that based purely on the racial make-up of the core team, given the location, the groundbreakingness of having welsh people on TV in big roles, and such, the fact that the producers perhaps chose to include two ethnically-white-welsh characters rather than another character of an ethnic minority, shouldn't, in itself, indicate that it's a show with racial issues. I wanted to defend that decision.
I hope that's possible without defending the boatloads of other evidence that the show, like a lot of New Who (and to a lesser but still important degree, the SJ Adventures), has some racism going on.
I think I'm also feeling emo and over-the-top-wronged on account of being...as I always have been...uncertain how to express my feelings about welsh oppression. Which exists, and is shitty, and upsetting, but will never be on the same playing field as "our stereotypes mean the police are killing us."
How can you navigate that?
Especially when the primary mechanism through which welsh oppression functions is by belittling it as a valid issue, or one which requires attention. By trying to tell welsh people that they ought to shut up and stop pretending to be any different; to quit embarassing themselves (read: others) by making such a fuss. By making welsh people into a giant joke it's socially acceptable to laugh at.
So: I'm cross because racial issues in the media is something big and important that needs to be discussed, especially in as popular a show as Torchwood or Doctor Who, and both shows undoubtedly have those issues.
And I'm cross on a much more personal level because an issue that's really important to me is - as near as I can tell - in danger of being dragged/already being dragged into this and made into a joke/a disparaging excuse. Again. This time in defense of something I strongly disagree with.
And, dammit, I still don't know how to say, "welsh oppresion is real, and larger than most people imagine, and important to me, and hurts me," without feeling - even now as I type it - like some sort of phony whiner; without feeling like a joke; without feeling scared. I mean, it's pathetic, but I literally feel physically scared typing that. Like my flist is going to laugh at me, or defriend me as a giant emo faux-victim. And most importantly I don't know how to say it without feeling like people will think I'm trying, in some way, to suggest it ought to get more attention, or is as globally important, as other oppressions.
I know that's not true. I know other stuff out there is bigger and nastier to whole groups of people and in more dire need of attention. I want to help those groups get that attention. I know that welsh oppression usually gets forgotten or put to one side for good reasons. But still, it's forgotten and so on the occasions when it does rise to visibility, such as now, there's no knowledge base from which to deal with it. No way for people from the other side of the world to realise they're unwittingly participating in it.
I want to be able to praise Torchwood for Ianto and Gwen and criticise it for Tosh's stereotypical "techie Asian", and the habit they have of killing off women of colour (and storing them in REFRIGERATORS; oh comics fandom, I miss you) and for those two issues not to be conflated.
I also really, really hope I'm wrong about what's happening in wider fandom, and that it's a result of my weirdly skewed reading lists and journal hopping because I only know a few places to visit, one of which I know I shouldn't because it makes my bloodpressure rise. And I get a lot of stuff second hand; like references to net-discussions and issues I can't actually find. But I've seen enough of them now, I'm starting to build a picture of what's going on from its absence, and I'm aware of how dangerous and open to interpretation that can be. I'm really hoping that I've somehow got a horribly skewed view of the ongoing "Torchwood is/is not racist," arguments. So...if that's so, and someone could clarify that for me, that'd be great.
Cos then I can plock this and go back to feeling like a nervous, touchy idiot and hoping not many people got the chance to see this.
I suppose in some ways, I'm mad at the show runners themselves. This was our chance, you know? This is like, the first time ever we've had a national show set here. The first time I can ever remember seeing high profile non-comedic leading welsh characters. Hell, welsh RTD DW has been the first time I can even remember hearing welsh extras.
And they fuck it up. Their lazy depictions of race cause problems. Their lazy attempts to make it "shocking" causes problems. It's just...it's just a shame is what it is.
And I'm...really confused. Obviously.
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This is very interesting...
Date: 2008-01-28 11:30 pm (UTC)Re: This is very interesting...
Date: 2008-01-29 12:48 am (UTC)A comment by Neil Gaiman about Torchwood just about killed me just now:
Date: 2008-01-28 11:43 pm (UTC)Re: A comment by Neil Gaiman about Torchwood just about killed me just now:
Date: 2008-01-29 01:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-28 11:58 pm (UTC)i somehow don't see why one wouldn't be able to discuss both of these things in relationship to torchwood? television shows have multiple and often contradictory meanings in them, so i find it entirely reasonable that torchwood's portrayal of race and ethnicity could have both helpful or not so helpful aspects to it [and i say "helpful" here to avoid "good"/"bad", which are such loaded terms].
i can't really speak to welsh issues because i don't know anything about them, but i think there are definitely problems with how torchwood portrays tosh and supporting characters of color.
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 12:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 02:29 am (UTC)i choose my friends on the basis of what they are like as a person, not the gender of the person they sleep with.
so for me, having gay or bisexual charecters on a tv show is not a problem.
however - when a show seems to be pretty much about pairing off random charecters then belatedly gaffa-taping on some hackneyed plot - then we have a problem.
in most cases, im there for the story, and in those cases, the private lives of these people is of no importance to me, wether they be gay, straight, besexual, asexual, or what - lets face it, the writing on this is so poor, they have problems with action, never mind home life.
there ARE shows out there that take the charecters home lives and bring it into the show, AND DO IT WELL! (numb3rs and medium spring immediatly to mind), but most other shows avoid that for precisely that reason.
ive said it before - RTD and his cohorts seem to have created what seems to be fanfic-wank, created specifically for the 'ficcers, with a "bring your own 'ship" ethos that is pretty much trying to alienate the non-ficcer viewers (erm, that would be most of them, then!)
the unfortunate thing is that (to a lesser degree) they appear to be trying the same thing with DW.
also unfortunate is that torchwood had so much potential - in fact, the only reason i keep watching is because i know just what it COULD be.
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 12:43 am (UTC)but my basic point was that i find it entirely possible to say "torchwood is a good example of integrating welsh people into a tv show" while also saying "the way torchwood handles the portrayals of black women leaves something to be desired."
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:52 am (UTC)I absolutely agree and that's what I'm really hoping for. I suppose I am perhaps a little overly defensive about my issue getting lost amongst an issue I know to be larger and more globally significant than it, though more than that, simply worried that the dual meanings and messages you note above will be impossible to discuss separately. And irked that the positive messages have to come from a source that very...unpositive to groups of people. Which is a fancy way of saying, yeah, I agree with you.
i can't really speak to welsh issues because i don't know anything about them, but i think there are definitely problems with how torchwood portrays tosh and supporting characters of color.
Yup. Which is especially irritating when absolutely bloody ANYONE can tell that Tosh is a much more interesting character than Owen and probably Gwen too (okay, okay, biased opinion, but still feh; I'm ranting!) which makes it all the more irritating that she's getting short-changed, and all the more difficult to explain it via reasons other than subconscious racism.
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Date: 2008-01-29 01:08 am (UTC)omg, owen should just go...and not be very present on the show. i seriously hope he won't hook up with tosh, because ewww. no. it seems as if this week's ep might be more tosh-centric, so we shall see.
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Date: 2008-01-29 01:38 am (UTC)Re: Owen. OH HE NEEDS TO DIE A THOUSAND DEATHS BECAUSE IF HE DOESN'T THE CAPSLOCK KEY ON MY KEYBOARD MAY AS WELL BE PERMANENTLY ON. OH GOD HOW I HATE HIM.
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Date: 2008-01-29 01:50 am (UTC)AGREED.
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Date: 2008-02-16 07:12 pm (UTC)I don't have lots of opinions about race in Torchw00t, but I will note that
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:13 am (UTC)1 - whether it exists or not, in the form you describe or not, "welsh oppression" is NOT racism, as the vast majority of the welsh are white anglo-saxon, which incidentally is the same as most of those doing the oppression.
instead, its something that could probably be more accurately summed up as "regionalism"< which ties in to my second point.
which ties in to my second point...
2 - when was the last time you watched a british show where a mancunian, geordie, tyke, mackem, brummie, cornish, or hell, just about anyone who isnt from the home counties wasnt portrayed as a comedy charecter at best or, especially with scousers and mancunians, a drug-dealing thug/car thief/burglar?
hell, i remember several years back when birmingham entered the running to host the olympics - they got no backing whatsoever from those in power inn london.
when manchester followed them, and applied for the loympics, they had a far better bid, but the lack of support from london meant thatthey were twice denied an oppurtunity to do this, even though they had actually started construction of facilities, something which hadnt even been contemplated in the cities that actually took it.
(stay with me - theres a valid reason for this little diversion).
when manchester was awarded the commonwealth games, the BBC was showing all the events, but there was much mirth from the (london-based) production team, aimed squarely at those stupid northerners who thought they were able to put on a world-class event - it was obvious they wanted the cameras there to show the north up for not being southern.
the shock of realising that actually, manchester put on an incredible event, which actually ended up making a profit rather than losing hundreds of millions of pounds as had happened just aout everywhere else - i remember one (southern) presenter saying, and i quote, "theyve put on a good show - not bad considering..." - he tailed off, realising hed pissed off everyone who wasnt from london...
and this was on a live sports broadcast - factual programming, not fiction.
incidentally, it was only after the success of manchesters commonwealth games that london decided that, if those northerners could do it, so could they ("weve shown we can put on a world-class event" said one londoner, referring to manchester, when it was announced that london was going for the olympics).
and this is my point - the PTB at the beeb didnt want DW to succeed, so they gave it to the welsh arm of the corporation, in the hope it would fail - same with torchwood.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 12:15 am (UTC)mind you, how many other opinionated mancunians do you have on your FList?
Shows with Mancunian heroes...
Date: 2008-01-29 12:35 am (UTC)Re: Shows with Mancunian heroes...
Date: 2008-01-29 12:57 am (UTC)and again, they gave it to manchester because cardiff was busy with a couple of other shows - they didnt think it would come to anything, so gave it to the regions in the hope it would die quickly - notice how quick they were to move the sequel to london when it was obvious they had a runaway success on their hands.
Re: Shows with Mancunian heroes...
Date: 2008-01-29 01:08 am (UTC)(Oh, btw - Christopher Eccleston is from Manchester or somewhere very close to Manchester, isn't he?)
Re: Shows with Mancunian heroes...
Date: 2008-01-29 01:48 am (UTC)i knew liz white was from t'other side of the pennines, and it turns out that marshall lancaster is from cheshire, which may as well be in london, posh bastards!
and you do realise that thats the easiest way to insult a salfordian - to accuse them of being from manchester!
mind you, most of the inhabitants of salford are bitter - mostly because theyre not mancunians ;)
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:46 am (UTC)As to television, I really watch very little these days and am willing to admit that that may skew my knowledge of possibly non-comedy welsh characters. However, even in my well-sketchy knowledge of TV shows, within the first thirty seconds, I had thought of the following shows which are English Regional or Scottish or Irish and is non-comedy:
Emmerdale (soap; Yorkshire), Life on Mars (drama; Manchester), Byker Grove (kids show; Newcastle), Sea of Souls (paranormal drama; Glasgow), Ballykissangel (drama, located in fictional town of same name; Rep. of Ireland), Silent Witness (crime drama, main character is from Northern Ireland), Second Coming (sort-of-scifi-philosophy; Manchester), Taggart (detective television; Glasgow), Brookside (soap; Liverpool), and I have this irritating but strong memory of another detective show on the BBC that tends to exist in specials these days, where the chief character is scottish (though I think its set in england) and is married to a deaf woman? But I can't for the life of me remember what it's called... And that was without really scratching my head or thinking too much about it.
Anyway, that's probably horribly skewed towards 1997 - 2002, but the fact remains, I can't think of a single welsh show shown nationally during that time period or any other?
But the most important thing is, I'm not listing that to try and be confrontational; just perhaps to show my perspective? We agree that London and the South East of England gets overly represented if we wanted to get into an argument about who gets more airtime where and why it's not fair if we're all paying the licence. We agree on that. I just...well - see above list. It's unusual for a show to be set elsewhere but almost unheard of for it to be set in wales.
And...what I was trying to say in the post above wasn't really to start an argument about wales being better or worse off. It was kind of the opposite of that? I was just hoping that...that it wouldn't end up that way. That it was possible for the good things it's doing for welsh visibility to be separated from the bad things it's doing with regards to the way it's treating its ethnic minority cast members?
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Date: 2008-01-29 01:42 am (UTC)TBH, i feel some sympathy with the welsh position - you should see the diatribes i occasionally unleash on my scottish friends and relatives for their "we are an occupied nation" rants...
i would also point out that there are no englishmen systematically burning the homes of any welshmen moving to england.
that list of shows with northern charecters or set in the north - i think they were mostly from the independent channels (ITV/C4/C5) - ITV in particular has program production spread all over the UK, so ends up with a lot of shows with a regional slant.
life on mars was given to manchester (via cardiff) because the BBC didnt understand it, so hoped it would fail - see my notes elsewhere), BallyK i believe was co-pruduced by the BBC and RTE (irish broadcaster), and byker grove (oddly) was actually filmed all over the country - i know a lot of it was shot in middleton and rochdale, 2 towns just north of manchester, which is a LONG way from tyneside!
the detective show you cant remember the name of - dalziel & pascoe.
they had to go with yorkshire for that, because reginald hill would have chucked a fit if they had tried moving his books down south.
there HAVE been shows set in wales, i have vague recollections of a farming soap that tried going head-to-head with emmerdale and failing, and another that tried taking on eastenders/corrie, and sinking without trace.
indeed, there have been some really succesful shows set in wales, which were never broadcast in the rest of the UK due to being written entirely in welsh - and THOSE shows apparently always took a very dim view of non-welsh speakers.
but my rant was directed pretty much exclusively at the BBC in terms of portrayal - its extremely rare that they show anyone from out of the home counties in a positive light.
TBH, i havent particularly noticed any overt racisnm in torchwood - the "techy asian" stereotype is a stereotype for a reason, as asians occupy more places in the tech industry per centage wise than their population numbers would suggest - having tosh as the computer geek is more realistic than having herbeing a soldier or police officer (both areas which are under-represented in the various asian communities).
and with the latest episode - there were 3 main aliens shown - one white male, one white female, and one black female - which was the only one to have any vestiges of humanity?
which was the only one to show any form of remorse for its actions?
hell, which was the only one to be given anything approaching an honourable death?
most of torchwoods problems stem NOT from issues such as these, but piss-poor writing, acting, and direction.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 02:06 am (UTC)Well, can't help the way you read it, but I stand by what I wrote. :)
i would also point out that there are no englishmen systematically burning the homes of any welshmen moving to england.
I would point out that I don't believe this happens, and quoting isolated incidents doesn't change the fact that there are also isolated incidents of welsh people being beaten up for being welsh, or that the primary emotion I seem to get form english people regarding wales is irritation, or that for about two years, people kept asking me if I was the only lesbian in the village; sometimes in pretty narky or confrontational ways, but I don't recall it being generally acceptable to parrot the other most popular Little Britain sketch at people in wheelchairs? ;)
Nor do I think that the behaviour of a few extremists is ever a basis by which to judge whether or not a rational issue exists or how to deal with the rest of the people said issue affects?
that list of shows with northern charecters or set in the north - i think they were mostly from the independent channels (ITV/C4/C5) - ITV in particular has program production spread all over the UK, so ends up with a lot of shows with a regional slant.
life on mars was given to manchester (via cardiff) because the BBC didnt understand it, so hoped it would fail - see my notes elsewhere), BallyK i believe was co-pruduced by the BBC and RTE (irish broadcaster), and byker grove (oddly) was actually filmed all over the country - i know a lot of it was shot in middleton and rochdale, 2 towns just north of manchester, which is a LONG way from tyneside!
the detective show you cant remember the name of - dalziel & pascoe.
they had to go with yorkshire for that, because reginald hill would have chucked a fit if they had tried moving his books down south.
Interesting information, but the end result is still that there are more shows set around the country which are shown nationally, and aside from your example of an apparently brieflived soap, there's never anything set in wales. I don't particularly care if a show's on BBC, ITV or C4 - the point is the dearth in the wider media.
Again, I don't disagree with you that the BBC have some issues regarding where they choose to set everything.
indeed, there have been some really succesful shows set in wales, which were never broadcast in the rest of the UK due to being written entirely in welsh - and THOSE shows apparently always took a very dim view of non-welsh speakers.
Well firstly, I've only been talking about nationally broadcast shows. But I can assure you as a welsh speaker and viewer that the number of shows written in welsh for S4C (the welsh language channel and the only channel that broadcasts in welsh in the UK), are very few, if you're talking about dramas. I'm not sure what you mean by "taking a dim view," but if you mean "are disparaging towards," I've never seen that? Mostly welsh drama is...cheap, to be honest, and when it's actually exciting enough to break through to welsh speakers who don't frequently watch the channel, it's...really surprising. I mean, the channel can't even afford to fill its programming schedule and often doubles up on C4's shows.
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Date: 2008-01-29 02:13 am (UTC)and what i read was that those who didnt speak the lingo (and the english in particular) were often derided, and usually portrayed as somewhat ill-educated.
Part 2!
Date: 2008-01-29 02:07 am (UTC)But I disagree that that means there's a need to make the asian character a techie on a TV show. And even if there is, there's certainly no need to relegate her to fifth place from a group of five consistantly? Though that's an issue that we probably disagree on and I don't really want to get into a fight about or anything. As I said in the original post, I'm mainly just worried about the two issues (whatever your opinions on them), getting conflated.
most of torchwoods problems stem NOT from issues such as these, but piss-poor writing, acting, and direction.
Well, whatever we think about the show's portrayal of race (which I think usually is an example of dangerously lazy writing rather than any intentional malice), we certainly agree that a good number of its problems stem from piss-poor writing and direction. The acting...sometimes. Sometimes I feel sorry for those guys, though!
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Date: 2008-01-29 03:00 am (UTC)It can't be both piss-poor writing, acting, and direction AND dodgy racial issues? Because I see it as a "both/and" problem myself.
TBH, i havent particularly noticed any overt racisnm in torchwood
I have, and so have many others. There were obvious things which made me cringe, and there were things that went right over my head when I first saw them but were noticed by LJ friends who are visible minorities and thus rather more observant about such things. I mean, as a middle-class white woman I can afford not to notice racism, overt or otherwise. It's unlikely to affect me directly.
the "techy asian" stereotype is a stereotype for a reason,
And the "black men in prison" and "aboriginal junkies" stereotypes are also stereotypes for a reason. That doesn't make them benign, nor is their perpetuation helpful. Particularly when we don't take into account the institutional structures which play a big role in perpetuating those stereotypes. Now, obviously on an absolute level, the "techie Asian" stereotype is FAR less destructive, but growing up in a Canadian city with a large East Asian population, I've seen plenty of examples of the "techie Asian" stereotypes held by many white people negatively impacting upon the lives of East Asian people I know.
Please note:
My comment re: being observant of some incidents of racism in the media and oblivious to others is not referring specifically to Torchwood, or to British TV in general. The same thing happens to me with Canadian and US shows.
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Date: 2008-01-29 03:46 pm (UTC)Also: I love your icon.
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Date: 2008-01-29 12:28 am (UTC)I think I'm also feeling emo and over-the-top-wronged on account of being...as I always have been...uncertain how to express my feelings about welsh oppression.
I find it extremely difficult to talk about any issue which feels close to home for me so I can sympathise. Remember how defensive I was when I commented to you about racist bombings? I keep nearly posting those comments on my journal and then not because I don't want the scrutiny and the judgement on a subject I'm not capable of discussing with people who won't get it.
but will never be on the same playing field as "our stereotypes mean the police are killing us."
It was once though and there's every reason not to forget that. Also, the Welsh and Scots insistence on a form of multiculturalism within these islands laid foundations which brown people built on. And there're people who're brown AND Welsh too, especially in Cardiff. I think I've told you before that one of my godsons is half-resident in north Wales and is a native Welsh speaker.
and storing them in REFRIGERATORS
Ahahahaha! I'd completely missed the significance of that. Ahahahaha! /inappropriate humour
no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 01:30 am (UTC)That is something of a comfort in that it means I'm at least reading the currents of LJ slightly wrong (though while it was slightly precipitated the most recent episodes stupidity, this wasn't primarily triggered by the most recent episode). Though it's less of a comfort to me because they're still apparently using the whole "white-on-white" oppression as an excuse, which is...what I have the problem with as it makes the issue look assinine, and - I feel absurd about this - it makes me wonder why they're not talking more about welsh people. I mean, dammit, if they're going to have examples, why not welsh ones since it's set there! Which is ludicrous, because I also don't want them to use welsh examples! HAHA! I AM IRRATIONAL! /hysterical humour.
I find it extremely difficult to talk about any issue which feels close to home for me so I can sympathise. Remember how defensive I was when I commented to you about racist bombings?
I do remember that, and I also feel, and felt, profoundly grateful that you were willing to discuss the issue with me and provide me with information.
And while I hate to see anyone afraid of posting something that damn important to them for fear of scrutiny...I do also get it. At least on some level. There are some things we are not emotionally ready to defend?
So thank you for the reassurance that my reaction is understandable.
And there're people who're brown AND Welsh too, especially in Cardiff. I think I've told you before that one of my godsons is half-resident in north Wales and is a native Welsh speaker.
You did indeed mention that! And it's awesome, as is the fact that even within my tenure at welsh language secondary school I saw the number of ethnic minority kids being sent there rise. Okay, it was a small rise, from like, two in a class of 250 to about five. But hey, it's an increase of 150% and is especially significant considering the various complex internal tensions that exist around the welsh language and being "really welsh" and what type of people speak it all sorts of bollocks like that.
On the topic of people who are welsh and brown I remember being vaguely worried that the first two instances of probable welsh, brown people were 1) Asian (as in Indian, Bangladeshi, etc.) man who tries to murder his white wife and son only to be foiled by Tosh in her single -centric episode and 2) dead boyfriend who'd already been murdered due to the complex schemes of Suzie. I think the only competant non-white person we got all season was the police woman from the Suzie episode, and she didn't sound like she was from Merthyr, so she probably wasn't welsh in Torchwood!world...
As a personal and non-scientific note, my friend Addy is Chinese and has a spread of cousins all over the country, including a bunch in Swansea. We were chatting once and he told me how even though he thinks of himself as specifically a chinese person from britain, he just doesn't identify with the term "english" or even "british" all that much when self labelling. But his cousins in wales, apparently, do identify with the label "welsh" much more strongly. It's something I noticed with my friend and her mother who is from Chile, and even with my own mother (from America).
I don't think that shows that there's a smaller problem with racism in Wales. Racism is just as bad here, I'm sure. I'm not sure what it is. If anything, and if there's anything to my unscientific observations, I think it says more about the current english identity crisis than anything. Which is a sad thing because I really think english people need more ways in which to be proud of their identity than they are currently being offered. Because many of them stem from disparaging other groups. Which I firmly believe most people won't choose and that the ones who do wouldn't, if given alternatives.
Ahahahaha! I'd completely missed the significance of that. Ahahahaha! /inappropriate humour
I KNOW!
no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 02:03 am (UTC)ahh - this old chestnut.
our glorious leaders in london (mostly scottish!) have decreed that anyone english should feel guilt and remorse for the suffering our englishness has inflicted on the world, and them in particular.
its fine to be irish, welsh, or scottish, to exhibit their national identity, to be proud of their history, their culture, their language, their roots.
the english, meanwhile, are only to be generic britons, and all their history is to be purged.
ive been in manchester for st patricks day, st andrews day, st davids day, and its party central - the pubs are full to bursting with revellers, the streets are decorated in the relevant colours, and its not uncommon to hear songs being sung referring to the massacre of the english.
come st georges day, a group of people are in a pub in central manchester wearing england football shirts and singing english football songs ("eng-ger-lund! eng-ger-lund! eng-ger-lund!").
now, have a guess which one of those involves the police raiding the pub and shutting it down for public nuisance offences.
during the last world cup, there was an uprising in public sentiment regarding englishness - the response of local councils was to BAN the flying of the st georges flag, in some cases on public safety grounds, in other cases because they didnt want to offend anyone who wasnt english!
the way this government is going, its not going to be too long before its illegal to be english.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-30 01:16 am (UTC)::giggles with you (not at you)::
I do remember that, and I also feel, and felt, profoundly grateful that you were willing to discuss the issue with me
It made a nice change for me to feel "safe" to do so.
And while I hate to see anyone afraid of posting something that damn important to them for fear of scrutiny...I do also get it. At least on some level. There are some things we are not emotionally ready to defend?
More like there are some things we're not prepared to be attacked on... AGAIN. ::wry face::
I can't comment on the details of Torchwood because my viewing has been sporadic and unattentive but it's interesting to hear they've cast brown Welsh(ish) people.
he told me how even though he thinks of himself as specifically a chinese person from britain, he just doesn't identify with the term "english" or even "british" all that much when self labelling. But his cousins in wales, apparently, do identify with the label "welsh" much more strongly.
Yes, my godson thinks of himself as (north) Welsh and a Londoner. I call myself English, because I am, and I've noticed more and more non-white people doing the same. I have complicated thoughts about this which I won't bore you with because they're OT and I'm lazy. The most interesting one is that many brown British sports fans will use the flag of St George (or David or Andrew) in preference to the Union Flag even when they're supporting a UK team because the Union Jack is still associated with racist groups (especially the National Front).
I think it says more about the current english identity crisis than anything.
I agree.
Oh, and because my viewing choices are somewhat Simm-centric at the moment ;-)
Date: 2008-01-29 01:15 am (UTC)- State of Play: okay, it's set in London - but Cal McCaffrey, John Simm's character, is audibly not from London, and could qualify as the hero
- The Lakes: set in the lake district, main protagonist (played by Simm) is from Liverpool
I have to admit that due to my, err, interest in John Simm and Christopher Eccleston I probably see vastly more shows set in the north or featuring northern characters than your average British tv viewer would, though. *g*
Re: Oh, and because my viewing choices are somewhat Simm-centric at the moment ;-)
Date: 2008-01-29 02:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-29 04:18 am (UTC)Interestingly, just last week, I had to tell someone in Australia that, yes, racism is still a very big deal in this country. The reason the topic came up was her questioning a plot point on 'Friday Night Lights'. In this particular episode, a black high school football player goes to the movies with his white girlfriend and young sister in tow. Instead of going to the movies in is part of town, they go to a theater in the GF's part of town. At the concession stand, they kiss, and you see people staring and whispering. In the theatre, a group of white boys sitting behind the sister begin making racially charged comments. The football player, growing increasingly frustrated, then angered by the verbal assaults on his sister, starts punching one of the boys before fleeing from the theater.
The person commented that this scene seemed out of place to her and something that would happen in the 60's rather than today. She then asked if anyone in the U.S. could confirm this kind of behavior/confrontation would, in fact, happen. I offered that, yes, sadly, it does, but it largely depends on where you live in the U.S. A mixed race couple going to the movies in New York City wouldn't get noticed. Even where I'm at in Michigan, I see many mixed race couples sll the time and never see people staring or whispering. But down South? Yes, that certainly could happen. I in no way wish to disparage all Southerners, but there are people down South that still have problems accepting the South lost the Civil War and, hell, we have people in congress that want to erect monuments to confederate soldiers, unwilling to take into consideration how offensive that is to some. And Barack Obama possibly being the next U.S. president? HUGE.
So, after I explained much of that, I'm informed that in Australia, they have their own problems with racism, but theirs is based on ethnicity rather than the color of a persons skin. It all just went to show me that no matter how intelligent we may be, how well informed we think we are, there is still a lot we don't understand about the cultures of others and how something perceived as disturbing by us may fly under the radar of others. All of which is to say that while I may not get your problems with 'Torchwood', I get your problems. ;)
Ugh - I rambled for too long! In two parts...
Date: 2008-01-29 04:29 pm (UTC)Oooooh, yeah. Though I have to say, I know that Eve Myles (Gwen) for instance, is a great actress from the other stuff I've seen her in. Same way I know that David Tennant is a great actor when he's not in Who. Which makes me generally more inclined to blame the writing as the root cause of bad acting (*cough*NataliePortmanInRevengeOfTheSith*cough*).
it's more about being *in* the United States, a country that doesn't look much past it's own problems. And that is not just a criticism of the U.S., I believe other countries are much the same way. I have to admit, if not for you, I would never have known having a show set and filmed in Wales was any big deal.
And I'm not sure that's generally something I'd even level as a criticism. I mean, being (also) welsh and being in wales affects me directly. But I'm not generally aware of - for instance - the racial issues in Australia you touch on further down your post. And I don't think that's such a terrible thing. We can't all have encyclopaedic knowledge - especially not about small nations with an entire population that's less than half of new york city! It's not the lack of knowledge that bothers me, it's the combination of dismissal of it as important/using it to defend something it doesn't mean? I'll...try to explain?
wish you would get into more specifics with what is bothering you because I feel I am failing to see just what is so troubling to you about that particular aspect of the show.
I'm not particularly troubled by the portrayal of welsh people in the show (except for Countrycide but that was more a rural vs urban issue, I think). Okay it's weird none of them sound like Cardiffians but at this juncture I can see they would think it's more important to loudly combat the association of welsh!accent=ignorant!hick than to teach people about variations in welsh regional accents (or even that not all welsh people are actually white?), so I'm reasonably cool with that decision. Though I may make snarky comments about both issues ;)
I was trying to avoid specific examples, but I suppose only out of fear/discomfort. And bluntly, I think I have a skewed view of the issue because of my reading sources. There was - near as I can tell - wank a few weeks/months ago regarding people trying to get out of discussing the implications of race on Torchwood by claiming "british racism is different so racism against people of colour isn't as big a problem," (which is bollocks), by invoking stuff like anti-scottish/welsh/irish sentiments. Thereby conflating an invocation of welsh representation as a good thing with being a whiny white person desperate to get out of being privileged and to be one of the "victims" again. Thereby making us...a giant joke? Thereby legitimising an issue I thought dead over a year ago (and which you may remember me exploding about here?) whereby welsh becomes LJspeak (in some parts) for hilarious professional victimhood.
Anyway in attempting to learn what all this wank was about because I was worried about who was saying what, err, "in my name," for lack of a better term. I made the mistake of visiting said journal which makes my bloodpressure rise, and discovering that oh-ho-ho, she now has an icon to make fun of welsh people (WTF?) and is, indeed, happily conflating welshness with hilarious faux-victimhood. That was a while back and I tried to keep a lid on it because I know I oughtn't go off on one because someone's unaware of what they're doing, but then what with the recent episode being so dodgy and me seeing a few more defenses of/accusations of defenses of "Torchwood's not racist because english people hate the scots," and I got...worried. And confused. And upset. And thought I'd make a giant emo!post!
Partly to be giant and emo, and partly because I felt the need to state my opinions on the matter clearly, and publically, if I was going to continue to comment on the show here?
Part 2: Or; to sum up:
Date: 2008-01-29 04:30 pm (UTC)My issue with Torchwood fandom is that I feel I'm being presented with an "either/or" proposition regarding supporting its high visibility welsh roles, and condemning the way it sometimes handles race. Because some people are overstating its importance with regards to other racial oppresions, and others are denying it exists. And most people don't actually have any experience with it because wales is so bloody small, which renders the whole discussion murky.
My issue with myself is that I think a lot of me seeing the choice this way stems from my own panic and defensiveness and confusion about how much I'm allowed/ought to say about this sort of thing. And my previous poor experiences with the topic in this arena that makes me gun shy and, again, defensive?
All of which is to say that while I may not get your problems with 'Torchwood', I get your problems. ;)
And thank you for that. :) (((ASTA)))
no subject
Date: 2008-01-30 04:57 pm (UTC)Tosh is the only recurring foreign character and i cant imagen outside of university students that there would be more than a handful of japanese people living in cardiff.
Apart from all that nastyness what the hell happened to yanto on last weeks episode the total amount of words he has said in all the past episodes add up to about 30-40 and now all of a sudden hes wisecracking left right and center "i know every thing" whats he been drinking?