BSG: Guess What's Coming To Dinner?

[beccatoria]

So last week it was delayed by illness and I was quite critical. Fortunately this week the response has only been delayed by AWESOME and I LOVE IT.

Really, I wanted an extra day to let it all settle in my head. It was just nonstop stuff happening.

We'll start with Lee and Laura because that's the closest thing I have to a 'ship on this show and I miss having something romantic and schmushy to "awwww..." at. So yeah, I've long ago given up any hope (not that I really had any to start with) of this show actually going in an L/L direction, but, after the glory days of season one and early season two, I have, at times, wondered if the writers even remember these two know each other.

And then we get scenes like this.

I can't say I'm pleased that Laura is still icily bitter about Lee's "betrayal." That's a different Laura to the one who respected and admired his "betrayal" in Bastille Day. I can't say that I'm overjoyed that Laura is, in Lee's eyes, forever tarnished - no longer something to love with the passion one reserves for great ideals.

I suppose, though, the most painful part is that it's Laura, not Lee, who's at fault at the moment. Lee might not see her as perfect anymore, but he does still love her (and I don't mean that in a romantic sense but I do mean that). And perhaps from his side of the fence, that's a healthy development. He "knows how this works," but he wants to help her anyway.

But Laura is cutting herself off from a great ally for...what? I don't think it's pride. I think it's pain. I think he hurt her and she thinks she won't have to admit that if she keeps him at a distance.

Who here thinks that Laura has told Adama about her visions? I don't. I was surprised she told Lee, but boy did I love it. That's the sort of surprising awesomeness I expect of this show. That unapologetic honesty I love from Laura. She might not volunteer information, she might manipulate and hide issues, but when you confront her, her instinct is to confess and to stand by her decisions. She didn't lie on the stand, and she didn't lie on the Colonial One, and I'm trying, but I can't remember a single instance of Laura lying to Lee. I think she'd tell him anything, if he stood there, asking her, for long enough.

It's a strange dynamic and I'm so relieved that it's been remembered and remains intact.

Let's also not forget that Lee hears that and doesn't sell her out. We don't see him immediate reaction, but we do know that after hearing that, after Zarek's bitter announcement about the new military operation, his first response is to go find her and talk to her. Just as a friend. Just because he loves her and wants to help.

There's a vulnerability to the advice he gives her that proves its honesty and is, I think, why Laura follows it. You can't lie with that vulnerability, and Lee Adama has always been terribly vulnerable. It's why I find myself wanting to plead with Laura, and not with Lee, to fix this rift. All Lee has ever wanted was to be loved and appreciated for who he is. That's what he's doing, in Laura's hospital cubicle.

"This is me. This is what I think."

I hope he understands how much it means that she agrees, when nearly no one else can reach her now. Except Adama and all he does is enable her. Or, when he goes against her, it's because of things he wants, not because he's trying to talk her out of what she wants. When was the last time he convinced her to change her mind on anything political? The season two finale?

Now if, once Laura gets back from being PresidentNapped, the writers remember this relationship and keep it - not even prominently, but if they remember that Lee cares about Laura and her doing a good job, and that Laura listens to Lee, if they remember that, I will be very happy.

Having discussed Laura's scenes with Lee, I'll move on to Laura's scene with Kara.

Oh holy crap that was amazing. Not only because Laura and Kara rarely get any scenes together but when they do, it's electrifying, because it's about religion and mythology and destiny, but also because look at what just happened.

I love that Kara actually tells Laura about the Hybrid.

I love that Laura - who is half convinced Kara is a cylon right now - asks for Kara's help.

And Kara just says, "Yes."

I have...I have no idea how to parse this scene. I have no idea how to explain how or why that was awesome, but it was.

The way Kara said "yes," made me think she knew something. Except at the same time, I don't think she knows anything. Or maybe she just knows that this is a moment of truth and destiny and determination, and she's not going to frak this one up.

I don't know, but it was awesome.

Speaking of Kara - "Harbinger of death," is now fairly clearly referring to the Cylon. As Natalie says, they need to learn how to die.

I'm a little disappointed on one level because I really, really wanted Kara to be some sort of cuckoo and to be the harbinger of human death. Not because I have any idea how that would end, but just because it's cracktacularly awesome.

HOWEVER, after thinking for a moment, this doesn't go against my dopey BSGMatrix theory where Kara is Neo at all. Since my original thought was Kara, like Neo, is a human but a tool of the machines and a figure in their scriptures. Originally that meant I considered her a weapon against the humans, but since we're going down a more unity-based blurring-of-lines route, it actually still fits, or perhaps fits even better. If we remove "harbinger of death" as a negative idea - as the Cylon rebels themselves seem to - then Kara is still a tool of the Cylon and present in their scripture as the one who will help them learn all about death. Helping the Cylon/Hurting the humans...eh, I can swap that around and it still works. Also, teaching the Cylon about death could be considered similar to Neo's task: rebooting the Matrix. And the way that he went against expectations and also remade the Matrix into a place that was...new and not so mechanically cold and brutal, like a Cylon who has learned mortality.

But now I'm babbling about a film I didn't even LIKE and a crack theory, so I'll move on.

The double-dealing on both sides was really good and really tense. I understood exactly why each side was making the decisions they made and on top of that, it hurt because I didn't think of either of them as the "bad guys" in this particular set up. It was a great way of organically ratchetting up the tension within the episode based on the plot situations they were given. And then Natalie deciding that they had to just trust even though we know she's wrong and right at the same time.

Wow, I love Natalie. Her fragile, brutal, innocent desperation to find something more. Her fear the Final Five are judging them. She's a child trying to learn how to be an adult. But then, I think the same is true of all the Sixes. To an extent, all the Cylon.

I really, really hope she's not dead...

Regarding the final four, watching Tigh dance about to convince them to forget them and just blow the whole thing was mildly amsuing, though honestly he's probably the guy who's changed least since this whole thing started and at least no one will be suspicious of his cranky, "let's blow them all to hell!" ways.

I felt so bad for Tory when Laura turned on her. I mean, to be fair, Tory, sleeping with Baltar is a BITCH MOVE, and I'm still disappointed they went that way. Like, I preferred her when I could at least believe that she only liked Baltar's teachings because they empahsised her specialness. And...to a degree I think that's still true, but she's less manipulative and more, "Yup I fell for it," here. And blergh. I join Roslin in being disappointed in her Nymph Squad ways because if nothing else it's just...demeaning.

I mean, this show, this season, is actually amazing for having so many women in prominent roles doing all the...doing really. And that's awesome. But the Baltar storyline is still really making me uncomfortable because I'm not sure there's ever going to be any explicit condmenation from the show itself. And because it's bad enough that Tory fell into this situation, but worse that she got whored into it. Twice now.

Either way, an observation: it's not being a cylon, or murdering someone, that upsets her. It's Laura Roslin losing faith in her. I suppose her one human piece of identity really was important to her, and it really does mean something to lose it.

When she called her "Laura," and Laura just cut her out...ouch. I felt bad for her.

Tyrol seems to have gone through crazy and found anhedonia.

Sam still seems to be headed towards the eye of the crazy storm.

I still think it was STUPID of Sam to shoot Gaeta and I'm confused as to whether or not he's going to be punished for discharging a fire arm or if the fact that Starbuck succeeded means that retrospectively she was never relieved of command and Sam was helping put down a mutiny or what but...that's one messy situation. And it's nice to see Sam freaked out by the fact someone lost a leg because of him.

The actor who plays Gaeta has a wonderful voice and it made a great backdrop to Lee and Laura's scene. I really hope that this was just the excuse they'd long been looking for to let the guy sing rather than a suggestion that he's the final cylon because the final cylon needs to be more interesting than that and there needs to be a reason s/he didn't show up in the Nebula with the others. The final cylon either needs to be a special model or a more important character.

Anyway, his voice was beautiful and I think if it hadn't been the whole thing might have come off as kind of cheesy, like, look! QUIRKY! But as it is, it was really...sad.

And finally OMGWTFCLIFFHANGER?! HAHAHAAA Roslin, Helo and Baltar are going camping with the Hybrid. This should be AWESOME.

Also: TWO WEEKS?!

Comments

[madenglishbloke.livejournal.com]

some thoughts...

starbucks expression on colonial one when she finally figured out what the hybrids harbinger of death kittens comment meant was pure... i dunno what it was pure, but whatever it was, it was pure whatever it was...

there has been a fair bit of speculation in various places re: gaeta singing, and is he/isnt he a cylon?
if he'd been singing all along the watchtower, then possibly - but no, this is just something the writers haver chucked in to throw everyone off.
i still say its galactica.
but youre right, the final model needs to be someone either more important, or brand new.

oh - and i found this, and thought it was kinda cool...

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

starbucks expression on colonial one when she finally figured out what the hybrids harbinger of death kittens comment meant was pure... i dunno what it was pure, but whatever it was, it was pure whatever it was...

I totally agree. projectjulie claims that it's because they're in LOOOOVE, but to be honest, I disagree less because I think it's implausible and more because dammit, even if they are, that look is...huger than just that. Like I don't feel that's enough to explain what was going on there... *shakes head*

But yeah, pure something...

oh - and i found this, and thought it was kinda cool...

Hahaha! That's nifty.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I loved your Lee/Laura observations and I'm sure you won't be shocked to learn I completely agree with you. ;)

And perhaps from his side of the fence, that's a healthy development. He "knows how this works," but he wants to help her anyway.

His words struck me too. Lee Adama is definitely a changed man. In 'He That Believeth...' he was willing to welcome Kara back even if she is a Cylon. In 'The Ties That Bind', Lee, the idealist and champion of democracy, tells Zarak that "Sometimes a benevolent tyrant is exactly what you need.” And now he's willing to accept that Laura won't or can't be completely truthful with the Quorum. I don't think Lee's become jaded or cynical, he still has a deep desire to make things better, but he's become more of a realist, recognizing that things need to be the way they are for the immediate future given the circumstances they are in. When Laura went along with Zarek's plan to have Lee denounce his father or when she came up with the plan to assassinate Cain, Lee was hurt, angry, and harbored a deep sense of betrayal. I'm not necessarily sure it's better that Lee's formed a thicker skin, but it probably is healthier and will serve him well.

Who here thinks that Laura has told Adama about her visions? I don't.

I don't think she has, not because she's purposely being secretive, but simply because it hasn't come up in conversation. (Which isn't difficult when you spend half your time together in a book club. ;p) If Adama confronted her as Lee did, she would tell him the truth, but Adama is probably afraid of the answer.

I was surprised she told Lee, but boy did I love it.

I love that it harkens back to 'Bastille Day' when she shared a vital piece of information with Lee (her dying of cancer) and no one else. OK, Billy knew, but he pretty much had figured it out. ;)

That unapologetic honesty I love from Laura. She might not volunteer information, she might manipulate and hide issues, but when you confront her, her instinct is to confess and to stand by her decisions. She didn't lie on the stand, and she didn't lie on the Colonial One, and I'm trying, but I can't remember a single instance of Laura lying to Lee. I think she'd tell him anything, if he stood there, asking her, for long enough.

Yes, Yes, Yes! No, Laura has never lied to Lee, which is why I wish he had confronted her about the Cain assassination plot. When confronted directly, she'll always tell the truth. Remember how Ellen went running to Tigh to tell him she was crazy and when he tried to out her in front of the press what did she do? She told them all about her cancer. She became the dying leader and her popularity only grew. Which is why I'm having a bit of a problem with her visions suddenly being seen as a bad thing. Unless it's because they involve the Cylons and not just hallucinations that support the scriptures.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I loved your Lee/Laura observations and I'm sure you won't be shocked to learn I completely agree with you. ;)

You did? WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT DID YOU DO WITH ASTA?! :p

His words struck me too. Lee Adama is definitely a changed man. In 'He That Believeth...' he was willing to welcome Kara back even if she is a Cylon. In 'The Ties That Bind', Lee, the idealist and champion of democracy, tells Zarak that "Sometimes a benevolent tyrant is exactly what you need.” And now he's willing to accept that Laura won't or can't be completely truthful with the Quorum.

See, it's weird, I both agree and disagree with you here. On the one hand you're right, Lee has changed and matured, I suppose (although when you mature on idealism I'm never sure if it's a good thing or a tragedy). But at the same time, I see a lot about his behaviour here that is exactly in synch with his behaviour in earlier series. He accepted Roslin's chamalla use and religious status even though he didn't like it, much the way his initial response to her visions isn't to denounce her but to continue trying to help. It was painful when he refused to record that message denouncing his father, but neither of them let it irrevocably wreck their relationship. And I still feel that the Cain issue - while he fundamentally had issues with assassination to be sure - was more because he'd been cut out of the decision - because Laura didn't trust him enough to tell him and give him the chance to either talk her around, or be the guy who raised a weapon for her again. She took away his choice. If she'd told him, I could actually see him volunteering to do it himself, because...it's like Tigh on New Caprica, though the complete opposite as well. Because Tigh does this with no idealism and Lee does it with nothing but idealism (and Zarek is trapped in the middle of that spectrum?), but I can see Lee doing the dirty work because "he knows how this works," with nothing but...the best for humanity in his heart? Or is that the very change we're talking about? That it was always the way Lee would respond to a situation, but this is the first time he's had the chance to? The first time the situation has pressured him into changing that way?

Which is why Laura breaks my heart. She's the one who's changed, much more than Lee, I think. The Laura of season one, and I think season two (at least early on) would have forgiven Lee, by now.

If Adama confronted her as Lee did, she would tell him the truth, but Adama is probably afraid of the answer.

That is a marvelously perspecacious statement and I think really goes to the core of why I can't like Adama anymore, at least, not as some paragon of virtuous heroism. He's a coward. Not physically. He'd die for the Fleet - in fact sometimes I think that would be a relief to him. But emotionally. He enables and expects people to enable him. He used to be...less like this. When he argued against using the marines as a police force in season one. When he talked her out of stealing an election. Although even then the seeds were there; I was starting to wonder how much of this was becuase of his deepseated belief in democracy and how much had to do with maintaining an image? That's...unjust perhaps. As the season 3 finale showed, Adama will go with his instincts, what he thinks is right. But as the series continues he has to be increasingly pushed to reach that point, and by now, he will no longer challenge Roslin about...pretty much anything, the way Saul Tigh wormed his way into his heart long ago. It's always easy to question the people you don't like, or to be brave and just about grand concepts, but it's harder to look the people you love in the eye and ask, "Are you still sane?"

[asta77.livejournal.com]

This is where I both agree and disagree with you. ;)

(although when you mature on idealism I'm never sure if it's a good thing or a tragedy).

Somewhere in between I would say.

And I still feel that the Cain issue - while he fundamentally had issues with assassination to be sure - was more because he'd been cut out of the decision - because Laura didn't trust him enough to tell him and give him the chance to either talk her around, or be the guy who raised a weapon for her again. She took away his choice. If she'd told him, I could actually see him volunteering to do it himself

I really can’t see him volunteering to do it himself - at least not at that point in time. It was fundamentally abhorrent to him. But after Laura copped to the election tampering which led to Baltar’s disastrous presidency and everything that happened on New Caprica, now he might actually see why she made the decision she did and, if in her shoes, would do the same.

I do agree that Lee had a lot of hurt and anger because he was cut out of the decision process. Before she became buddies with his Dad, she turned to him for counsel. She trusted him when she trusted no one else. And, suddenly, he’s finding out about something HUGE from his father, a man at one point Laura had little trust in. This on top of a demotion that made him the fleet errand boy. He probably already felt as if his life was hitting bottom and Adama hands him a shovel.

He's a coward. Not physically. He'd die for the Fleet - in fact sometimes I think that would be a relief to him. But emotionally.

ITA. Adama may be an awesome admiral and the guy you want in charge when your life is at stake, but he’s the last person you want as a father or friend. He just can’t be there for you, emotionally, when you need him the most. When Lee was helping save the fleet’s collective asses, Adama was there with a smile and all the time in the world. When the revelations came about Lee’s childhood or when Lee was dealing with his grief over Kara’s death, Adama shut him down and practically kicked him out of his quarters.

But as the series continues he has to be increasingly pushed to reach that point, and by now, he will no longer challenge Roslin about...pretty much anything, the way Saul Tigh wormed his way into his heart long ago

Lee is the only person challenging Laura right now. Zarek feels sidelined, Adama’s more worried about what he’s going to do when she’s gone, rather than the fleet (which the preview scene for the next new ep only reinforces that), and Tory I doubt has ever questioned a single thing Laura is said because she thinks she’s so awesome. Which, yes, she is, but someone needs to keep her in check!

[projectcyborg.livejournal.com]

I can't find it in myself to be anything but FILLED WITH MANIACAL, DEVIANT GLEE about Laura telling off Tory and whoring her out. OMFG HOTTT.

THE GAY, SHE IS TOO STRONG.

and I still maintain that's the certain je ne sais quoi in the Kara/Laura scene as well... even if you're not ready to admit it. ;)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

and I still maintain that's the certain je ne sais quoi in the Kara/Laura scene as well... even if you're not ready to admit it. ;)

It's less that I don't want to admit it and more 2 things -

1) I'm sure that's not what the writers intended. And while that has absolutely nothing to do with the best or most sense-making way to interpret the scene, it does make me wonder just what in the hell they did intend, and what they were trying to say, or what the director was trying to say, or whether this was purely a choice from the actresses to play it that way or...what? Was there something intentional here, or is it a case of characterisation being so strong it takes on a life of its own?

2) To a degree, I honestly don't think that them being in love is enough. I already believe that they're in love on some theological level that is neither platonic nor romantic but...well, theological linkage. The same way that when I'm trying to see the show's "writerly canon" (which isn't my modus operandi, but I do occasionally), I accept that Lee/Laura isn't canon, but I do think that Laura is one of the people Lee, on some level, loves, because Love ought to be a more expansive and accepted concept than is usually seen on television. But anyway, to get back to the point... There's something in that je ne sais quoi that isn't accounted for by THE GAY, SHE IS TOO STRONG. It transcends that and goes to the theological core of the show.

Though, I know that for you, those two are inexorably linked, and it's a shockingly coherent fanonical view. But also I should probably admit that when Love is treated as something more expansive than a simplistic "I love you as a friend," vs "I want to frak you," binary, but as an expression of deep, abiding connections between characters - an expression of importance and attachment and need that need not have anything to do with like... If we start talking about Love in those terms, then...

Okay, I cede the point.

Because I think that what the je ne sais quoi in that scene really is is the fact that those two characters are the poles around which everything theological and mythical and mystical in this show revolves, and that they are both starting to realise that. Which is terrifying and awesome. And while they may neither like nor trust each other at the moment, I have no better way of verbalising the emotion behind such a powerful, impossible, unbreakable and unchosen connection between two people - or, hell, behind the realisation that such a connection exists - than love.

To steal a quote from my favourite novel, (spoken by a space chicken and regarding two young men, who did not like each other, and were not particularly slashy),

"You need not like someone to love him. Love is nothing more than the recognition that two are one. That all is one. That knowledge is the seed of greatness."

/bizarre and random tangent. Ahem.

[projectcyborg.livejournal.com]

I find it amusing that you are attempting to have a rational discussion with me about this! AS IF I AM NOT PARALYZED BY FLAIL. But yes:

I think that the je ne sais quoi in that scene really is is the fact that those two characters are the poles around which everything theological and mythical and mystical in this show revolves, and that they are both starting to realise that. Which is terrifying and awesome.

COMPLETELY. COMPLETELY GAY. AND THE EVEN GREATER MIRACLE: the writers have apparently started to realize it!

So I accept your explanation. Also (someone?) pointed out: there could be a little of "and the last time we met you tried to shoot me in the head, don't think I've forgotten" in there too.

JUMP

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

1. Gaeta: I've watched both eps now and I'm going to bet my first born that him singing is just an obvious red herring. Beautiful voice though and I like the idea that it's added to Sam's antsiness.

2. Tigh and the Four: Me thinks the lady doth protest too much! Getting tired of the Final Five comments followed by flashes to Tory or Sam.

3. L/L: Pretty clear that Laura is clinging to a hate for Lee (Scorpio much?), however, while I praised him last season for pointing out everyone's hypocrisy and sticking to his ideals, I'm not appreciating his whining right now. He's a pansy of the Council, really. The kid with the boss' ear who everyone pushes to go talk to her to make her listen.He might have been right about Baltar not being guilty of the crime he was accused of on the stand, but Lee is the one that suited himself into a raptor at the end of last season when the Cylon's attacked. Why? BECAUSE THE COLONY IS STILL AT WAR AND ON THE RUN.

Laura might have her own personal agenda with doing what she wants and shunning the Council, but frankly, there should be no Council in a time of war. You don't get to take up major decisions with the committee (yes, I'm picturing Han and Leia as I write that) when decisions about the FATE OF HUMANITY are at stake.

Yes I get that we don't want to completely lose our humanity, but we also don't want to lose our lives. Democracy got Baltar voted in and peple landed on New Caprica. Even before the Cylons returned, Democracy proved to be an ugly piece ugliness. Then throw the Cylons back in and like I said, we're reminded that we're at war.

I'm glad Lee said what he did about being with the Council, though it felt cheap and forced. I want Laura to have more opportunities to speak honestly to him about her actions which are to save her people (and I believe she believes that and isn't just being a megalomaniac).

4. Oh Tory. Speaking of megalomaniacal... beautifully painful to see her shot down like that. I dislike that they've made her a whore to get to that point though.

5. L/K: Gorgeous. So much said without having to say much at all. And Laura's little plea - honest and baring all as, you've pointed out, she is always willing to do when confronted. gah!

Re: JUMP

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

1. Gaeta: I've watched both eps now and I'm going to bet my first born that him singing is just an obvious red herring. Beautiful voice though and I like the idea that it's added to Sam's antsiness.

No! Not Ivy! She's too adorable to be bet on the vaguaries of Ron Moore's plot twists! :p

But srsly, I'm glad you agree. I think it's too obvious as well, and hope it was just an excuse to showcase the actor's beautiful voice.

2. The Final Five?! *glances shiftily at icon...* :p

3. Yes I get that we don't want to completely lose our humanity, but we also don't want to lose our lives. Democracy got Baltar voted in and peple landed on New Caprica.

Actually, one of the things that shocked me most about this show was when they pointed out to me how dangerous democracy could be. And I'm like...one of my core ideals is democratic government. And it still is even though I now have a stronger appreciation of its danger. I'm...unsure though, where I fall on not having a quorum during a time of war. I'm pretty sure that we don't up and declare marital law when there's a war on, the President just gets extended executive powers, which Roslin has.

Though I grant it's a...complicated issue. I think actually, that I liked Lee more here because he didn't see so whiny? Like, he was confronting Laura and actually trying to keep her in control because he thinks she'll do a good job? It's less that he wants her to not do what she's doing and more that he wants her to reassure the quorum because they're a problem she's been deliberately ignoring to her own danger? And also I do agree with the idea that while she may not be able to share everything, an appearance of caring goes a really long way to reassuring your people that they didn't choose wrong. And it is her responsibility to let people know they can still have faith in her. Lee did her a favour by pointing out her outward behaviour was having a detrimental effect on her ability to be a good leader?

4. Oh Tory. Speaking of megalomaniacal... beautifully painful to see her shot down like that. I dislike that they've made her a whore to get to that point though.

I completely agree. She's getting some wonderful scenes but...did she have to get turned into a whore?

5. Oh, the L/K scene! *flails*

Re: JUMP

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

BSG has most certainly been about turning our beliefs and understandings upside down. To me, the show is basically saying: "Do all your morals, values, rules and regulations hold true when you are fighting for your very existence?" I'm a firm believer in the "No." Not that I want to see a breakdown of everything. We don't want Lord of the Flies here, but, as Roslin becomes more of a dictator in desperate times, I'm finding myself wishing Cain was around because dude, Roslin/Cain 08 would have rocked. *airlocks council*

That said, you are right about Lee this time. He wasn't being a whiny uppity prat about upholding the ideals of the world this time. This time, he was just reminding her that they have decided on a democracy and therefore she does have duty to at the very least, keep the people informed. But I don't believe there should be a council in place that has the ability to hold up decision when decisions need to be made in a split second that decides the fate of the entire colony. All of those people are only concerned about their own.

ETA: REminds me of a series of stories I used to write about two gals and their questionable world-saving methods. They were sent on a PR campaign to fix their reputation and ended up telling off the members of a talk show audience who dared question their morals, informing them that morals and truth have no place in a time of war. The girls got their hands dirty and took the heat so that everyone else could keep their hands clean and stay out of the fire.

I worded it much better than that of course, but I've packed the notebook with the actual quotes in it ;)

[aarmand78.livejournal.com]

Just joined LJ...