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beccatoriaI read the Caprica script.
I am not enthusiastic.
This is not because the script is a bad one. It's a little soapy for my tastes, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It evokes a strong sense of place and with good actors I could see it being a reasonable TV movie. Had I never seen BSG, it wouldn't set my world on fire, but my response to it would be, "there are some interesting ideas here, this has potential, I'll check it out."
I'm also aware that I rarely read scripts and since it's an unfamiliar medium, I'm fairly certain I'm not getting 100% of the end effect.
But.
I can't read Caprica without the context of Battlestar Galactica, and that in that context I find it weak and disappointing. Which is very disappointing personally because I love this universe; I desperately want more of it. But not if it will undercut the things I love about it.
There were some things I enjoyed greatly. They were primarily to do with the portrayal of religion and culture. The polytheism and the cultural differences between the colonies seemed very real to me; alien but fascinating. Sometimes as small as wearing black gloves for mourning. Sometimes as large, as frightening and compelling, as an entire world devoid of flowers.
Against the backdrop of BSG where I am more and more concerned that it may be prioritising monotheism over polytheism, it was fascinating to hear an argument from an agent of the FBI-analogue that monotheism was dangerous because it promoted an absolute view of the world: a single god to divine what was good or evil allowing adherents to absolve themselves of the responsibility of choice or the consequences of their actions (y helo thar gaius baltar...)
This did feel like the same world the members of the Fleet used to inhabit, and it was vivid.
Why then, the disappointment, you ask?
Because effectively, this story undercuts a lot of what I find interesting about Battlestar.
This breaks down into three sections: 1) the confusion of biological/technological boundaries 2) cylon psychological evolution and identity 3) monotheism.
1) this takes the smallest hit and perhaps I'm simply being picky in light of other more serious concerns. Zoe-A, the first sentient computer program (arguably) only exists in a faux-organic form in the show's internet-analogue and is still confined to a mechanical body. However, when combined with points 2) and 3) the fact that the goal is to make her into a human replica, underscores the way the cylon choice to mimic humans and replace them - along with their key beliefs - are being retconned into goals that were human in origin, robbing the cylon of agency. Still, at least making the cylon almost purely organic remains something that plausibly still happened after the armastice when the cylon disappeared for forty years.
2) While the humanoid cylon and their identities may very well have evolved independently during that forty year absence, again I find something is taken away from the fascinating evolutionary nature of that jump when we discover that all this started (at least, that's what the pilot script suggests) with a perfect replica of a specific human consciousness made by a human. Actually, let me rephrase - it's more than that. Taking the sentience granted by a human and moving with that toward their own goals; that's fine. It's the way that part of the story is handled that bugs me.
Usually I'm all for glossing over technical details. But I actually found the explanations of how Zoe managed to create Zoe-A to be inadequate. I can understand in a highly technological society being able to use an search engine to create a fantastically detailed model of a person who moves similarly, expresses similar opinions; perhaps even copies tics of speech. But not private memories. So firstly, how did Graystone create Tamara-A, and was she as detailed as Zoe-A?
Secondly, I take issue with Zoe-A's genesis for other reasons. The script plays it up as almost something miraculous - divine intervention granting this program sentience. That bothers me. And I say that as someone who loves the religious aspect of the show; the fact that the cylon have a god who might very well be real. But when the very idea of something as complex as Zoe-A is almost unthinkable to the people foremost in that field, and it was created by a teenager in her bedroom, it gets a little...
I don't know. If I was watching this show in isolation, I'd be willing to roll with it as an exploration of divine genesis. But in a show that discusses technology and the ramifications and evolution of technology and our relationship with it in a way as fascinating as Battlestar, and which has always managed to do so while concurrently holding a discussion on religion, well, I think this fails to live up to that standard of discussion.
It suggests that the cylon didn't develop into complex organisms almost independently. That there isn't an evolutionary line from centurion to hybrid to humanoid. That they sprung, fully-formed, from the head of Zoe Graystone. And in this, it fails in the technological discussion.
It fails in the religious discussion for reasons I'm about to detail.
3) monotheism. Perhaps the defining attribute of the cylon, and source of such richness and complexity in Battlestar. Again, reduced to something they got originally from humans. Again, their agency and choices in their own evolution reduced to attributes given to them by Zoe Graystone via the first sentient AI (yes, I am assuming a direct link between Zoe-A and the genesis of cylon sentience and their eventual rebellion, but I don't think that's unreasonable given the premise of the series).
My primary feeling about this show is that ironically, by suggesting God Himself had a hand in creating the cylon, it argues against their existence as more than programmed machines rather than for it.
The fascinating things I previously thought they chose to develop on their own: monotheism, psychologically functioning like humans, development of sentience and emotion beyond those displayed by the original cylon, even humanoid self-image - all of them are now attributable to humans - can be used as evidence they haven't exceeded their programming rather than evidence they have. How limiting.
If there was no Battlestar, I would be more interested. I'd be interested in whether divine influence created sentient AI. I'd be intrigued by the idea of an entire race created by accident because of a 16 year old's programming hobby. I'd want to know more about this mono- vs polytheism issue. I'd like that monotheism is quite explicitly portrayed as the "bad guy" but also as the creator of Zoe-A who is not a "bad guy".
Independently Caprica works and raises interesting questions about technology and religion.
They are not questions that work well with the questions Battlestar Galactica raises; they undercut them. They're similar enough they can pretend they're sailing along the same track, but they're not.
The show could surprise me. It could later make it very clear that the cylon development of monotheism was a specific choice they made independently of Zoe Graystone's influence. It could be made clear that Zoe-A's existence is something else - a different storyline to the centurion development of intelligence, rebellion and eventual evolution. Some parallel tale that develops concurrently with the centurions'. I could handle that. I wouldn't love it, but I could handle it.
I'm trying to leave room for faith RDM as I think that he is pretty good at sketching out a story in broad beats, at knowing what themes will work and how.
But the problem is, I don't think this pilot suggests Caprica will be a bad show. Just that even if it's really, really good, it's likely to be telling the exact opposite of the story I want it to tell. Which makes me sad.
And now, in news of OTHER things that are making me antsy, the FINAL CYLON poll.
I'm terrified it'll be Gaeta. I really, really don't want it to be Gaeta. God that would be boring. I mean, I like Gaeta. But as the built-up final cylon? AT BEST we get a few reveals about "what he was really doing" in a few scenes, and worst, it's a total rehash of the final four. If he didn't know who he was...it's not really all that dramatic even if he suddenly has loads of cool information/becomes a magical special bunny in 4.5. The shocking minor character getting way more mystically important thing worked well in the S3 finale because there were four of them to share the plotline and because it was new. The fifth must not have shown up for a reason: either s/he wasn't there, or s/he's different. I guess I'm just not a big fan of suddenly turning to a C-List character and saying, "LOOK! It was HIM all ALONG!" It feels really...lazy. The reveal has to be significant on a level more than just oh, well, now we know he's a robot. That's been done too many times.
Just...blargh. I wish I were spoiled for who it was so that I could just chill the fuck out/deal with the disappointment/excitement. But I'm not and I don't think anyone really is, so I will instead, poll people!
[Poll #1325035]
I am not enthusiastic.
This is not because the script is a bad one. It's a little soapy for my tastes, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It evokes a strong sense of place and with good actors I could see it being a reasonable TV movie. Had I never seen BSG, it wouldn't set my world on fire, but my response to it would be, "there are some interesting ideas here, this has potential, I'll check it out."
I'm also aware that I rarely read scripts and since it's an unfamiliar medium, I'm fairly certain I'm not getting 100% of the end effect.
But.
I can't read Caprica without the context of Battlestar Galactica, and that in that context I find it weak and disappointing. Which is very disappointing personally because I love this universe; I desperately want more of it. But not if it will undercut the things I love about it.
There were some things I enjoyed greatly. They were primarily to do with the portrayal of religion and culture. The polytheism and the cultural differences between the colonies seemed very real to me; alien but fascinating. Sometimes as small as wearing black gloves for mourning. Sometimes as large, as frightening and compelling, as an entire world devoid of flowers.
Against the backdrop of BSG where I am more and more concerned that it may be prioritising monotheism over polytheism, it was fascinating to hear an argument from an agent of the FBI-analogue that monotheism was dangerous because it promoted an absolute view of the world: a single god to divine what was good or evil allowing adherents to absolve themselves of the responsibility of choice or the consequences of their actions (y helo thar gaius baltar...)
This did feel like the same world the members of the Fleet used to inhabit, and it was vivid.
Why then, the disappointment, you ask?
Because effectively, this story undercuts a lot of what I find interesting about Battlestar.
This breaks down into three sections: 1) the confusion of biological/technological boundaries 2) cylon psychological evolution and identity 3) monotheism.
1) this takes the smallest hit and perhaps I'm simply being picky in light of other more serious concerns. Zoe-A, the first sentient computer program (arguably) only exists in a faux-organic form in the show's internet-analogue and is still confined to a mechanical body. However, when combined with points 2) and 3) the fact that the goal is to make her into a human replica, underscores the way the cylon choice to mimic humans and replace them - along with their key beliefs - are being retconned into goals that were human in origin, robbing the cylon of agency. Still, at least making the cylon almost purely organic remains something that plausibly still happened after the armastice when the cylon disappeared for forty years.
2) While the humanoid cylon and their identities may very well have evolved independently during that forty year absence, again I find something is taken away from the fascinating evolutionary nature of that jump when we discover that all this started (at least, that's what the pilot script suggests) with a perfect replica of a specific human consciousness made by a human. Actually, let me rephrase - it's more than that. Taking the sentience granted by a human and moving with that toward their own goals; that's fine. It's the way that part of the story is handled that bugs me.
Usually I'm all for glossing over technical details. But I actually found the explanations of how Zoe managed to create Zoe-A to be inadequate. I can understand in a highly technological society being able to use an search engine to create a fantastically detailed model of a person who moves similarly, expresses similar opinions; perhaps even copies tics of speech. But not private memories. So firstly, how did Graystone create Tamara-A, and was she as detailed as Zoe-A?
Secondly, I take issue with Zoe-A's genesis for other reasons. The script plays it up as almost something miraculous - divine intervention granting this program sentience. That bothers me. And I say that as someone who loves the religious aspect of the show; the fact that the cylon have a god who might very well be real. But when the very idea of something as complex as Zoe-A is almost unthinkable to the people foremost in that field, and it was created by a teenager in her bedroom, it gets a little...
I don't know. If I was watching this show in isolation, I'd be willing to roll with it as an exploration of divine genesis. But in a show that discusses technology and the ramifications and evolution of technology and our relationship with it in a way as fascinating as Battlestar, and which has always managed to do so while concurrently holding a discussion on religion, well, I think this fails to live up to that standard of discussion.
It suggests that the cylon didn't develop into complex organisms almost independently. That there isn't an evolutionary line from centurion to hybrid to humanoid. That they sprung, fully-formed, from the head of Zoe Graystone. And in this, it fails in the technological discussion.
It fails in the religious discussion for reasons I'm about to detail.
3) monotheism. Perhaps the defining attribute of the cylon, and source of such richness and complexity in Battlestar. Again, reduced to something they got originally from humans. Again, their agency and choices in their own evolution reduced to attributes given to them by Zoe Graystone via the first sentient AI (yes, I am assuming a direct link between Zoe-A and the genesis of cylon sentience and their eventual rebellion, but I don't think that's unreasonable given the premise of the series).
My primary feeling about this show is that ironically, by suggesting God Himself had a hand in creating the cylon, it argues against their existence as more than programmed machines rather than for it.
The fascinating things I previously thought they chose to develop on their own: monotheism, psychologically functioning like humans, development of sentience and emotion beyond those displayed by the original cylon, even humanoid self-image - all of them are now attributable to humans - can be used as evidence they haven't exceeded their programming rather than evidence they have. How limiting.
If there was no Battlestar, I would be more interested. I'd be interested in whether divine influence created sentient AI. I'd be intrigued by the idea of an entire race created by accident because of a 16 year old's programming hobby. I'd want to know more about this mono- vs polytheism issue. I'd like that monotheism is quite explicitly portrayed as the "bad guy" but also as the creator of Zoe-A who is not a "bad guy".
Independently Caprica works and raises interesting questions about technology and religion.
They are not questions that work well with the questions Battlestar Galactica raises; they undercut them. They're similar enough they can pretend they're sailing along the same track, but they're not.
The show could surprise me. It could later make it very clear that the cylon development of monotheism was a specific choice they made independently of Zoe Graystone's influence. It could be made clear that Zoe-A's existence is something else - a different storyline to the centurion development of intelligence, rebellion and eventual evolution. Some parallel tale that develops concurrently with the centurions'. I could handle that. I wouldn't love it, but I could handle it.
I'm trying to leave room for faith RDM as I think that he is pretty good at sketching out a story in broad beats, at knowing what themes will work and how.
But the problem is, I don't think this pilot suggests Caprica will be a bad show. Just that even if it's really, really good, it's likely to be telling the exact opposite of the story I want it to tell. Which makes me sad.
And now, in news of OTHER things that are making me antsy, the FINAL CYLON poll.
I'm terrified it'll be Gaeta. I really, really don't want it to be Gaeta. God that would be boring. I mean, I like Gaeta. But as the built-up final cylon? AT BEST we get a few reveals about "what he was really doing" in a few scenes, and worst, it's a total rehash of the final four. If he didn't know who he was...it's not really all that dramatic even if he suddenly has loads of cool information/becomes a magical special bunny in 4.5. The shocking minor character getting way more mystically important thing worked well in the S3 finale because there were four of them to share the plotline and because it was new. The fifth must not have shown up for a reason: either s/he wasn't there, or s/he's different. I guess I'm just not a big fan of suddenly turning to a C-List character and saying, "LOOK! It was HIM all ALONG!" It feels really...lazy. The reveal has to be significant on a level more than just oh, well, now we know he's a robot. That's been done too many times.
Just...blargh. I wish I were spoiled for who it was so that I could just chill the fuck out/deal with the disappointment/excitement. But I'm not and I don't think anyone really is, so I will instead, poll people!
[Poll #1325035]
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no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 08:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 01:06 pm (UTC)As for Gaeta? He's my second favorite character on the show and I'm totally indifferent about if he's a Cylon or not. I don't think it will be him, though. Hmmm.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 06:33 pm (UTC)While the humanoid cylon and their identities may very well have evolved independently during that forty year absence, again I find something is taken away from the fascinating evolutionary nature of that jump when we discover that all this started (at least, that's what the pilot script suggests) with a perfect replica of a specific human consciousness made by a human.
I think I could accept that the Cylons did come up with the idea of creating human looking Cylons independently. After all, Thomas Edison wasn't the only person tinkering with the idea of electricity or Henry Ford the car, they just did a better job at making their creations successful and available. And the Cylons would appear to be better at mass production. ;)
However, the argument that both man and machine developed the ability to replicate a human separately would seem to make one of the core plotlines of Caprica meaningless. Or are they going to show that humans saw the error of their ways (by playing God) and stopped what they were doing, but it was too late and they failed to realize they had already created a new evolutionary process by creating the centurions? Then again, hasn't that already been covered in BSG?
I've always assumed that even though the dominant religion(s) in the colonies was polytheistic, there would be people or societies that believed in a single God. Christianity was once the fringe religion amongst the polytheistic Romans. I never felt the Cylons believing in one god was unique to them. And it is possible that they got the idea from humans. What if among the people they kidnapped and experimented on there was a monotheist? What if the centurions or first hybrid spoke to those people before killing them? The idea could have been planted and I actually wouldn't have a problem with that. Humanity already had a hand in creating the Sixs, Eights, Threes, etc so why not have a hand in their spiritual beliefs?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 07:00 pm (UTC)Please don't spread that around.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 02:35 am (UTC)How far back does it take place? I actually don't know anything about it. I've been avoiding details.
As for the poll, I think I am oh so slightly biased by your story.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 03:07 am (UTC)I hate the idea of Caprica for these and so many other reasons.
I can't fill out your poll because it doesn't include the correct answers! OBVIOUSLY #1 is Laura Roslin. but for #2 my money is still on Zak or another distant member of the Adama family, with Kara's dad a distant second in the same vein.
for #3 my response would be DOES NOT COMPUTE. I think it's categorically impossible for Gaeta to be the final Cylon, because he already came out as gay. for BSG these seem to occupy the same discursive position, so Gaeta was destined to be one (and only one) or the other. in general they can't do a minor character reveal because, as you say, it's been-there-done-that with the F4.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 11:14 am (UTC)I'm mostly worried because I want it to either be a huge revelation because the character is hugely important or because that character's status affects a character in some huge way.
But I definitely dislike Billy as the final cylon less than I dislike Gaeta as him. I think I mostly dislike Gaeta because people have been harping on about it for YEARS now. I don't want it to be true out of contrariness!
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 11:19 am (UTC)THAT SAID, given my aversion to it being "C-List Character #27" I'm surprisingly all right with it being Kendra. Unlike so many other characters, she seemed so quiet and so lost and so...disconnected even from herself. And at least she is somehow connected to prophecy and mythic crap due to the situation she died in and the message she received.
I actually wanted to put characters like Kendra and Cain and Zak Adama but there weren't enough poll options. :/
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 11:35 am (UTC)A slight mitigating factor is that it's the daughter of a pre-eminent computer whizz billionaire Bill Gates-analogue so she presumably has access to insanely state-of-the-art equipment. But yes. A teenager dinking around on her computer is responsible for the first AI - it's not humanoid - it exists on the "internet" and gets downloaded into a centurion-type body at the end of the telemovie.
However, the argument that both man and machine developed the ability to replicate a human separately would seem to make one of the core plotlines of Caprica meaningless.
Well I actually think that human were "playing god" probably even if their intention was always to keep the centurions looking all metally. But while it probably wasn't for mass production purposes, Daniel Graystone's intention when he discovers an AI clone of his dead daughter's personality floating around the internet is to bring her into this world (hence downloading into the centurion body) and I can't imagine he'd want his replacement child looking like a mechanised soldier. (Note: it doesn't get that far in the pilot because Graystone thinks it went wrong and he lost the data, but the sentient centurion is actually wandering around. But...it does make me nervous that the hyper-realistic organic robotics will also be attributed to sekrit human projects during Caprica's run).
And I guess I also feel a little bit that while in the realworld people are often concurrently working on things, in a story universe, it runs into the area of redundancies, so unless they go out of their way to make a point that cylons developed completely independently of Zoe-A the first sentient AI it seems likely the two events are linked. And frankly, why introduce Zoe-A into this limited fictional universe in a story that's supposed to be about the creation of the cylon if it isn't because she's one of the race's progenitors? I would like to be proven wrong, but...it seems unlikely at this point. Especially since it ends with Graystone naming his mechanical soldiers "CYLONs", so it's not like the Cylon are the work of his competitor or something (shame, that could have been interesting).
Bah. Now I'm just venting, sorry.
Re: monotheism.
I actually wouldn't have a problem with the fact that there were monotheists in the Fleet either. Hell, in season four we get vague references to "Mithrasists" or somesuch who apparently believe something very similar to monotheism.
But basically to give more context, Zoe Graystone is a secret monotheist and very passionate about her new beliefs to the point that prior to her death she wanted to run away and start a new life. At her school, her monotheistic teacher/sekrit indoctrinator (along with her creepy terrorist boyfriend) are like...totally convinced Zoe-A the first AI is very religiously significant, and the teacher wants to get her hands on Zoe-A after Zoe's death for exactly that reason.
So it's not just that we see monotheism and then we see some AI and some robots. It's that the AI was basically created in order to further the cause of monotheism.
Which makes it look like the Cylon don't have enough individuality to question their own programming/inherited beliefs rather than having enough individuality to actively choose a belief system from human culture.
I phrased it poorly before. It's not that the Cylon might have gotten monotheism from humans, it's that it was, apparently, what they were created for.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 11:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 11:44 am (UTC)For me a big part of the problem is that if Caprica tries to talk about those mystic things BSG handles re: cylons, it'll end up attributing those things to the human creators which, as you say, ruins what we've come to believe. I firmly believe that the mystical aspects should be left as things that developed in that forty year disappearance between the wars, not pieces of programming the Cylon took with them.
Perhaps the problem is that Caprica is trying to say that "the humans created the cylon, absolutely in all ways," but that that doesn't stop the Cylon from being sentient and valuable. Whereas what I want it for the focus to be on the evolution of the cylon under their own power from whatever sentient creatures the humans created to what we have now in the humanoid models?
ARGH.
Anyway, yay poll! I hope you were biased in a good way. ;)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 11:52 am (UTC)*forms a pro-CapricaSix support group*
I LEFT SPACE IN MY POLL FOR COMMENT ENTRIES!
I wanted to include people like Zak, Carolanne, Cain and Kendra but I ran out of poll space.
I really hope it's not Zak though I do also fear they might go that was out of the "relative = major enough" rationalisation. Mainly just because...I mean, he was born. And while Tigh makes it clear the FF age, there's a difference between that and actually...being born. Bah, I dunno. If there's a good explanation I guess. :/
I think it's hilarious how like, EVERYONE pretty much thinks it's Roslin these days and most people I see aren't even like, "OMG it would invalidate her journey" or whatever (which I don't get as an argument, it would just make it MOAR AWESOME). And yet I still get the impression RDM are unaware of this and think it would piss everyone off or something.
As to #3, yes, I agree. And not only do they occupy the same discursive position, I think that it might actually come off as potentially somewhat skeezy. OMG THE GAY GUY IS AN EVIL ROBOT! (Because, I know, they're not evil robots but...you get what I mean?)
Though it would be even more entertaining than the fact they let him out of the closet, but only in the webisodes closet. I doubt he'll get any romantic scenes with Hoshi in 4.5 since the webisodes were written during the filming of The Plan. So unless they did pickup shots or picked Hoshi because the two characters had a lot of friendly scenes or something... I dunno.
*bites nails*
*is generally a hilarious per centage of 'total wreck' considering it's only TV*
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 02:32 pm (UTC)I haven't been paying attention to anything, though, so apparently there is lots of speculation from somewhere that it's Gaeta? Webisodes? That would be a really stupid choice, imo.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 03:10 pm (UTC)YES. What an eloquent way to describe it.
It's why I'm firmly in the "If they don't go with Laura it ought to be Kara's parent," camp because if they don't go with Laura it's gonna feel to me like they didn't want to "go there" with a major character for some reason (even though, I mean, that's like the threat and almost the promise of the show) and so Kara's parent fits in as someone we're not attached to, but also a way to explain Kara's red herring status and still be a huge revelation in show.
I wouldn't really like it if it was Bill mainly because, dammit, WHY IS HE THAT IMPORTANT?! But, ahem, my irrational dislike of him aside (why am I trying to make a vid about him?!) and my angst that it would just turn him and Tigh into BFFs again when the ANGST is so much more lolarious, it would at least be better than Gaeta, yes.
As to Gaeta, I think a lot of it is just I've seen a fair amount of speculation it'll be him and, well, I hate the idea so much it's giving me free-floating anxiety. Hence my highly leading poll above. ;)
The speculation I've seen is mostly around the youwillknowthetruth.com clues (even though I don't think the'll ultimately add up to anything other than a random extended trailer type thing: I don't think they're actually designed to give us the identity of the fifth). Because one of the clues is the old hybrid's prophecy about the "fifth" who is "hungry for redemption" and then there's Baltar actually saying on the wireless - seemingly to Gaeta - "If you're hungry for redemption this is not the way," or somesuch.
Combined with RDM kind of admitting that the fifth isn't in the last supper picture which rules out all major characters (caveat: he also said Kara was dead for good, not that we believed him that time).
And the fact that Gaeta, like the other four, were important resistance fighters (in his own way) back on Caprica, and that people have been speculating for YEARS that he's a cylon for some reason (I think because he likes computers, idk) and it seems a fair number of people think it's him.
Being HORRIFICALLY judgemental for a second, mostly these people seem to be the...not casual fans, but people on the SciFi boards/who don't actively engage in LJ-style fandom/who aren't obsessed with the show like I am.
Basically, segments of fandom that are very different to this one, but nonetheless probably more accurately represent the wider viewing base?
Or something.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-05 06:12 pm (UTC)hmmm - didnt baltar become a cylon leader in the original '78 show?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-07 04:15 am (UTC)Head hurts. Wish Isabel would go back to sleep so I can too.
Also, need to update this icon with pornstache.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-07 09:14 am (UTC)2. I wish I had the power to make small people fall asleep. Not only could I help you, I would also probably be very rich.
3. tbh, I can't believe you haven't done that already!
...pornstache.
*shudders*
no subject
Date: 2009-01-07 09:20 am (UTC)I really hope it isn't Baltar. I know it sounds hypocritical (since I totally disagree with people who think that being a cylon would invalidate Laura's journey) but I think it would invalidate Baltar's. For Laura, it's like the last piece of bitter irony that the people she destroyed herself trying to save weren't even her people.
For Baltar it's like...what he's been searching for the whole time. This is the guy who invented an entire new religion just so that he could pretend he hadn't been to blame for anything. He wants to be a cylon. It would be a form of absolution for him and I'm very against giving Baltar anything that approximates absolution... GRR!
;)
And yes, Baltar in the original was the Cylon Leader (I vaguely recall, I never watched it much), but he was still a human. And I think that Gaius already sort of approximates that role with the callbacks when he was on the basestar and his crazy religious shenanigans per HeadSix? I mean, they could go with that, it's just not my preference?
ARGH I AM SO EXCITED. AND SIMULTANEOUSLY KIND OF NAUSEOUS.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-08 01:42 am (UTC)2. I heard there were people disguising themselves as infant sleep coaches or some crap who charged like $10,000 to train babies to fall asleep and sleep through the night. Mine is currently screaming at me because I am not holding her forever to let her fall asleep (which is what happened last night and resulted in her being up for 2 hours). With my first, this would have broken my heart. With my second, I'm a bit more calous. Ahhhh there we go. Silence. Sort of. Almost...
3. I don't have Photoshop hooked up on this computer.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-09 11:25 pm (UTC)I would like Roslin, but my votes sort of leaning toward either one of Kara's parents or Zak Adama. It's a way for the Adamas to be more important again, and would lead to much angsting. And if they plan on explaining how Tigh's a Cylon anyway,
I'm sure they can manage to fit Zak into whatever they come up with.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-13 08:59 am (UTC)On Zoe-A's obscure origins and divine intervention, THIS IS THE LAZIEST STORYTELLING EVER. This is what kills me the MOST. Religion and faith almost always the immediate answer for things that cannot be explained by science, and this is totally perpetuated in a SCIENCE-FICTION show. WTF. And this could be stretching it, but assuming the audience already loves robots, this is sneaky evil proselytizing. No robots without devout sekrit monotheism? EVIL. And how much do I abhor the "most kids were wasting their time in orgies, and then we decided to be productive and make robots" alternate morality story?
My new relationship with RDM's storytelling is beginning to fit this model pretty neatly: If he's asking a question I love the story. If he's trying to answer the question, I should FLEE as quickly as possible.
Without suffering a reread, I will also say: they lost me when they said Tauron had no flowers. 1 - OK I'm sorry, but do they know ANYTHING about the mythology of which they speak?! Taurus is associated with the sensual and physical and things of beauty, including FLOWERS FOR FRAKS SAKE. 2 - It is HIGHLY improbable that an ecology without flowers could sustain human life for any considerable period of time. Now maybe, if they're using a more narrow concept of flowers, but even so this was the giant flashing warning sign that when they said "melodrama" what they really meant was moving away from realistic science-fiction.
And yes, the flowers issue is a very minor point considering the bigger BSG related flaws in the script, but it felt so gimicky and ham-handed I couldn't let it go by.
The black-gloves was a nice touch. And the name change. I dig that part, too.
Onto Final Cylon matters: Cain is still my favorite choice for who should be the Final Cylon. Though if Laura were the Final Cylon I would be ecstatic, as well. But, as I said before, RDM doesn't give me answers I like. Ever. Only questions. mope mope mope.
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Date: 2009-01-14 09:53 am (UTC)I am, however, totally taken with your point about the questions RDM asks being so much better than the answers he gives. I guess my final judgement on that fact will depend on whether I find the conclusion of the series satisfying?
I'm actually a bit easier on it on the SciFi front than you, mainly I guess because most of my favourite stories are totally dodgy science-wise and while it's nice when that side of things adds up, I'm kind of okay with the more fantastical approach of whole worlds without flowers and mystical intervention with computers.
(Re: Tauron, yes, it probably was a cliche, but...still, I was taken with it. I know it's probably scientifically improbable, but I also sort of like the idea that they used the hyperadvanced technology you see everywhere in order to get rid of them for religious reasons. Because that would speak of crazy wealth for the planet despite the fact they're kind of isolationist and apparently mafia-infested and perhaps a little isolationist? Mainly because I want to reconcile the way Tauron was always referenced as one of the wealthier Colonies in BSG but suddenly they're crazy oppressed in Caprica. /end tangent).
Anyways, to get back to your points. YES. ZOE-A'S GENESIS IS COMPLETELY FUCKING LAZY. I actually don't think that's necessarily because she "mystically" was granted intelligence if it was in an entirely different show. If the show was only ever trying to explore the concept of God choosing to create life in machine form or something. Maybe. I mean, it would still have to really work hard to explore the ramifications of this genesis to prove it wasn't just lazy "oh, we don't understand it and can't be bothered to explain it to the audience," writing. But...I could believe that subsequent chapters in that story could do so.
BUT. You can't just shove this into the history of BSG. Because "by the way, humans didn't really create the cylon as an example of technology running amock and alternate evolution, it was actually just a god-inspired fluke," is...lame. Sorry, Adama, better stop wondering if you're responsible for the Cylon and their actions, because WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY CREATE THEM AFTER ALL. God did. End of story.
But to be honest, even if this was an entirely standalone show, I would have been disatisfied with the completely non-existant explanation for how Zoe-A can exist with such sophistication. Even if you wanted her to be an unexpected and frightening jump forward, I'd've been happier with her just developing on her damn lonesome than with her being a deliberate product of a single mind when no one else could do it. Just. Blergh.
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Date: 2009-01-14 11:07 am (UTC)Oh see I'm TOTALLY OK with scifi putting aside or glossing over real science to service the story. The problem I have with Caprica doing that is Battlestar Galactica has always been realistic science-fiction. The premise of the show is everything is the same (or within the realm of plausible) except certain elements of cylon mythology. Adding in the no-flowers element not only violates the previous sci-fi boundaries set by BSG, but they use it to convey character information that doesn't depend on the violation! Exploring Grandpapadama's Tauron angst didn't have to rely on the absence of flowers. It *does* create an amazing visual, but I don't think that's the only amazing visual that could have afforded the same effect.
And yes, agreed - I really do enjoy the "character" elements they tied into Tauron otherwise, the mafia, the wealth, the Caprican prejudice, etc. The only other thing I like is Polly Walker being on my tv again, though not particularly impressed with the character she'll be playing, so it doesn't really count.
RE: ZOE-A ...OMGS YES - see that's the problem with Caprica! If you're writing a different mythology that's fine, but it doesn't work within the established BSG mythology, not only in terms of plot and character, but just the storytelling rules they establish in BSG.
As a standalone show, I think I'd have different rules, and the show would *still* fail to meet my expectations. For one thing, as a melodrama-sci-fi hybrid, I could get behind glossing over the creation of Zoe-A and leaving it as an established show fact *if* it was for greater service to the emotional melodrama. But, that places the burden of the show's success on the emotional questions raised and the exploration of those expectations. And well, even ignoring my allergy to manpain, the emotional questions raised felt familiar and recently developed already in other shows - Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Veronica Mars, Gossip Girl, etc. I'm not saying those tropes are off-limits, but Caprica failed to bring any new emotional tie-in besides the sci-fi. Meh. Meh. Meh.
.... I feel sekritly evil for ripping on any show this much, but it kind of earned it.