Torchwood: Thoughts about the actual show this time.

[beccatoria]

So, you know, first just to indulge my obsession, we actually got someone saying something in Welsh zomg! When Gwen gets off the helicopter, PC Andy says, "Croeso i Gymru," which, if you're curious, means "Welcome to Wales." From the way he said it, Andy's not a fluent speaker, but it's one of those phrases most people here know and recognise. I liked it, it was a nice touch.

Now, on to the actual series.

I'm...I dunno. The problem here is that this is, I think, hands down the best five episodes of Torchwood we've seen.

That said, it left me feeling profoundly unsettled and disatisified and not, I think, in entirely the ways it intended.

The thing is, the third season is written as the actual logical conclusion to the first and second seasons as I saw them. Except I'm still convinced that at the time they wrote those seasons they had no idea how dangerous and unprofessional Torchwood seemed?

So we have this actually fairly well-written (with a few glaring and embarassing exceptions) story about what happens when completely inappropriate people fuck about with a no-win situation, make everything worse and get most of themselves killed in the process.

About how when you don't have "I'm the Doctor!" to back it up, running into a room and yelling a lot and having that be, apparently, the entirety of your plan, is a pretty ludicrous way to behave and what the hell were you expecting?

But then, if suddenly, retrospectively, it's being acknowledged that Jack Harkness' Torchwood conducted itself appallingly, the question is...not quite why should I care, but there is the question of where our sympathies lie? Of why we should trust these people and why they haven't worked out the bottom line - that it's all going to hell and the world is not a playground?

In some ways, the chosen threat was very effective for this. It really was one of the few things calculated (and yes, I include myself in this) to make the viewer really want to say damn the consequences - fuck choosing 10% deliberately, let's fight to the death and refuse to collaborate. But then at the same time - entire human race at stake here.

So we really want to side with Jack - we want to believe that he will save us all. Like his daughter. Makes it all the more crushing when he doesn't. Or does, but doesn't if you are his daughter.

Torchwood lets people down. It's a last-ditch defence against things it's entirely unequipped to handle. Because if the Doctor's left you (and I disagree with Gwen who apparently thinks of Tennant's Doctor the way RTD does, not as an arrogant, self-righteous git like I do), you pretty much should be screwed.

But there's the question of generosity on the part of the audience, of how far I'll follow a bleak story and why and what I'm getting out of it.

It's why I dislike Neon Genesis Evangelion; I find the ending (even the revised one) indulgent. I resented watching 24 episodes that only ever posited a single question - when will our heroes break out of their depressions? - to find the answer is, never. No growth, just despair.

What frustrates me is that had I never seen seasons one and two, I think I would have really been on board with this story. I would have thought the bleakness was self-justifying; the sense of ants swatting at gods deliberate. A feel that the Torchwood team, ill-equipped, pissing into the wind, were characterised this way on purpose; so we fall with them, realise how arrogant or useless we are with them, but still, have not a single alternative "good guy" to turn to.

Ianto's death is probably the best example I have of how the bleakness goes from artful to disappointing due simply to the context of previous seasons.

Solely within the context of this mini series, it was the point at which you really realise you're screwed. How dumb they've been. It's that classic, oh crap, real danger moment, and to an extent, yes, that's a cliche. But it's also sudden and understated, and, I think, if John Barrowman were a better actor, would have been quite emotionally affecting.

The problem comes in that I can't forget that Tosh and Owen both died like, two minutes ago. Yes, longer ago in the show world, sure, but...it breaks the fourth wall. It becomes, once again, Torchwood yelling, look at me, I must be deep because I have sex and swearing in me and I kill major characters just because I can! Worse than that, though, is the in-universe problem. Which ties to my other major issue.

While both Tosh and Owen died, it was really only one major event that was responsible for both of their deaths. That's something that's tragic, but that you can write off as, well, "a horrible tragedy," rather than, "Tuesday".

Kill Ianto too, and... Both for Gwen and the non-immortals involved with Torchwood, and for me as a viewer, the question has to be raised: what's the point? This is too dangerous for any sane person to be a part of, and frustrating for the viewer to boot. Are they gonna kill Gwen in S4 because there's no one else left?

My other major issue being, the fallout.

Because I think that my problem, as I said above, is that on its own, I think the darkness is self-justifying. A great deal of the scenario and the plot that went down, I found very compelling. It even ended up working well for me that in early episodes I didn't find the children particularly freaky, considering where it later led. But in introducing not a team like Torchwood, but specifically Torchwood, with all its baggage, I'm left confused as to the message.

Was this their comeuppance? More darkness for the sake? I don't know and I can't even put into words the undercurrent of discomfort I have but somehow this doesn't fit.

And I wish there'd been more fallout. I think that would have, for me, made all the angst and bleakness totally worth it. If we really HAD been watching the end of the world. If this was our apocalypse.

But we get that scene six months later suggesting that civilisation didn't collapse. Even though I know the kids didn't end up getting taken, it also suggests maybe we got some kind of brush-it-under-the-carpet reset button. I liked that Jack ran away, because frankly, after what he did, just...yeah. I'm hoping it's permanent. I think that would be a fitting end to his character at least for the forseeable franchise future. But the explication that he was actually running away and being juvenile about it kind of...made me unfortunately feel we hadn't seen the last of him. Certainly I suspect he'd be back for a fourth season which would disappoint me. I'm not interested in seeing him angst about being such a bastard.

Which is why I wish there'd been more realworld fallout. If they're going to kill Ianto, effectively kill Jack to me (I found his story here interesting but have no faith in the current team of writers to tell me more of it in a way I would find interesting), start a class war about the one thing that people really will fight to the death about, then...use that. Irrevocably change your world.

I half wish they'd taken the ten per cent just for story potential. But even if not, start a fucking mutiny. Have the entire nation rise up against the state and declare revolution. Something.

Plus what's even going on with Torchwood now? Jack clearly naffed off and didn't go back to it and then called Gwen to say goodbye. And presumably she's at least currently off active duty until after the baby's born. But, see EVERYONE DIES above - there's the dilemma now.

I can't see Gwen ever, ever being happy with a quiet life after all she's seen. But after all this, who the hell would go back to that job?

Personally I vote we put Jack's daughter in charge of it. Now there's a character (and a decent actress) who really has nothing to lose. And Lois, since the Cabinet Woman promised to release her and Gwen said she should come if she wants a job. Make Rhys join against his will somehow in a horrifyingly unfair fashion and invite PC Andy as the useless, overeager one to get horrified by the realities of aliens.

But...that's the thing, isn't it? They could follow through with what S3 started; do something interesting with Torchwood. As in, write a bleak, crime-fighting show about messed-up people trying to do something because otherwise they'd go insane. And then I remember, that's what it always thought it was. And it wasn't. It was a juvenile show that thought swearing and sex made it edgy.

I've seen people comparing fan reaction to BSG, or even the finale to it. It's interesting because in some ways I think their problems are opposite. BSG's finale didn't, to my mind, follow through enough on the bleak reality of their situation and previous stories, while TW focused on it exclusively, but this was at odds with both its previous seasons and ultimate fallout?

asta77 made a comment about BSG and TW and their respective bleaknesses, and it was about how BSG started with an apocalypse. And while her point was about what you signed on for at the start with each show (and that is a point I agree with as I said above), what it impresses on me is how much I wanted this story to be the start of an apocalypse.

Yeah. Maybe that's it. This should have been the start of an apocalypse. And it wasn't. So it just comes off as unendingly dark for the sake of it. A few beautiful moments in there, and when I think about it as a standalone, a surprisingly good story from this creative team, but ultimately, I find myself thinking, if this wasn't really the start of the end of everything, then what was the point?

Comments

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

The flashforward to Gwen being happy and heavily pregnant was a mistake. As was leaving us with too many unanswered questions about what happens to the world after the Torchwood recordings are made public. Because you're right, that's end of the world material there, and the start of a revolution. It would be madame le guillotene, with politicians and bankers first in line for the chop, and would really have captured the zeitgeist.

I think you might be right about viewers who watched S1 and S2 being let down, adn newcomers being able to invest in the story as portrayed on screen. Because there definitely seems to be a gulf between the fans and the people who just watched CoE. I fall into the latter, and found it a surprisingly good story, particularly given my expectations were so low because I think this creative team has egos that writes cheques their actual talent levels have no hope in hell of ever cashing.

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

you are so much more rational about this than i am! i'm still at the point of swearing and throwing things. i agree that there is a disconnect between tw s1/ 2 and this mini-series, and that's why it feels so alienating. it's not the tw i got invested in, and in that it feels similar to the ending of bsg. which, yes, was way to lalalahappy where tw's ending was too bleak.

but what annoys me the most is the fact that because the ratings were so good, it's possible there will be more tw. now that just makes me want to scream.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I have never seen Torchwood, though I am somewhat invested in it because of my job with the BBC (a remote denizen of it). It's been fascinating to see people's extremely violent reactions (for the most part) on my flist and fflist. And of course it hasn't yet aired here in the States. I emailed my boss about the negative reaction and she was like, well we've sold out all the Torchwood (tie-in audiobooks) we had and it's too soon for returns, so we'll have to see what happens. I don't have the slightest inkling of what this kind of ending means in terms of the series (though I assume it will continue because it's very very popular and does well for BBC America.)

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

running into a room and yelling a lot and having that be, apparently, the entirety of your plan, is a pretty ludicrous way to behave and what the hell were you expecting?

Yes.

While both Tosh and Owen died, it was really only one major event that was responsible for both of their deaths. That's something that's tragic, but that you can write off as, well, "a horrible tragedy," rather than, "Tuesday".

Even if you're only counting the team members at the beginning of season one then you're forgetting Suzie (and Jack). CyberLisa was Torchwood too and there were more than a few other deaths, either onscreen or mentioned onscreen, of people working for/with Torchwood who were killed for that reason.

I half wish they'd taken the ten per cent just for story potential. But even if not, start a fucking mutiny. Have the entire nation rise up against the state and declare revolution. Something.

But... 10% of children in our society are already treated like shit and I'm not seeing the streets full of mutineers.

I can't see Gwen ever, ever being happy with a quiet life after all she's seen. But after all this, who the hell would go back to that job?

Someone from Torchwood Cardiff who believes s/he's the only person available/capable of saving the Earth/whatevz and suffers delusions of competence due to poor writing? ;-P

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

"But... 10% of children in our society are already treated like shit and I'm not seeing the streets full of mutineers."


Or indeed as the alien says, 1 child dies every heartbeat.

I'm quite surprised the PM didn't suggest that the aliens just take all of the African children.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I think I could have handled the uncertainty because at least it would have left room for assuming the whole thing was going to hell.

Also I don't think that the TW recordings ARE going to be made public currently - that was the deal that I think the assistant lady brokered? To blackmail the PM? I dunno, I wasn't really sure. And yes, I'd like to have known, but even so, you can't exactly hide armed dudes coming and taking your kids against your will. There will be serious questions and anger no matter how you try to cover it up.

But the flashforward kind of answers that question without answering any of the questions we WANTED answered.

I think this creative team has egos that writes cheques their actual talent levels have no hope in hell of ever cashing.

There I agree with you absolutely.

[simplystars.livejournal.com]

[here from asta77's journal, apologies for poking my nose in]

Ianto's death is probably the best example I have of how the bleakness goes from artful to disappointing due simply to the context of previous seasons. [snip]

The problem comes in that I can't forget that Tosh and Owen both died like, two minutes ago. Yes, longer ago in the show world, sure, but...it breaks the fourth wall. It becomes, once again, Torchwood yelling, look at me, I must be deep because I have sex and swearing in me and I kill major characters just because I can! [snip]

While both Tosh and Owen died, it was really only one major event that was responsible for both of their deaths. That's something that's tragic, but that you can write off as, well, "a horrible tragedy," rather than, "Tuesday".

Kill Ianto too, and... Both for Gwen and the non-immortals involved with Torchwood, and for me as a viewer, the question has to be raised: what's the point? This is too dangerous for any sane person to be a part of, and frustrating for the viewer to boot. Are they gonna kill Gwen in S4 because there's no one else left?

Yes, this. Exactly. :(

[and of course my comment is too long for LJ... continued below]

[simplystars.livejournal.com]

A great deal of the scenario and the plot that went down, I found very compelling. It even ended up working well for me that in early episodes I didn't find the children particularly freaky, considering where it later led. But in introducing not a team like Torchwood, but specifically Torchwood, with all its baggage, I'm left confused as to the message.

Was this their comeuppance? More darkness for the sake? I don't know and I can't even put into words the undercurrent of discomfort I have but somehow this doesn't fit.

And I wish there'd been more fallout. I think that would have, for me, made all the angst and bleakness totally worth it. If we really HAD been watching the end of the world. If this was our apocalypse.

But we get that scene six months later suggesting that civilisation didn't collapse. Even though I know the kids didn't end up getting taken, it also suggests maybe we got some kind of brush-it-under-the-carpet reset button. I liked that Jack ran away, because frankly, after what he did, just...yeah. I'm hoping it's permanent. I think that would be a fitting end to his character at least for the forseeable franchise future. But the explication that he was actually running away and being juvenile about it kind of...made me unfortunately feel we hadn't seen the last of him. Certainly I suspect he'd be back for a fourth season which would disappoint me. I'm not interested in seeing him angst about being such a bastard.

Which is why I wish there'd been more realworld fallout. If they're going to kill Ianto, effectively kill Jack to me (I found his story here interesting but have no faith in the current team of writers to tell me more of it in a way I would find interesting), start a class war about the one thing that people really will fight to the death about, then...use that. Irrevocably change your world.

I half wish they'd taken the ten per cent just for story potential. But even if not, start a fucking mutiny. Have the entire nation rise up against the state and declare revolution. Something.

And god, yes, this too. In this age of internet and instant communication, there would have been leaks. There would have been paranoia and conspiracy theories on a worldwide scale, and there would've been civil unrest and martial law and someone somewhere pulling the trigger on civilians and WHAMMO, instant civil war - again, on a global scale. Where was that? We get Jack killing his own flesh and blood to save the world, and then the magical "six months later and the world goes on" without any sort of hint at what happened the next hour, day, week?

To not even address it, except via Jack being broken and emo... I think that did the most disservice. Instead of any kind of real closure, we got a rushed minute or two of "it's too painful, I have to go" and the implication that things will be okay because Gwen will have her baby and life will go on?


Bah.

And really - the aliens didn't *have* to have any kind of genocidal weapon at their disposal. Ianto's death was entirely unnecessary because just the *threat* of it from the 456, coupled with killing Clement who they did have a viable link to - or, hey, any of the children, when the 456 "spoke" through them - might've sent humanity on its merry way to self-destruction without the 456 having to raise a finger... claw, whatever. We would've done ourselves in, and they could've just collected from the survivors afterward.

Maybe. I dunno. All I do know is that I can think of only one story I wish I'd never read, and now one tv series I wish I'd never watched. Because for me, ultimately, the last hour and ten minutes undid every good and fun thing the first three hours had me invested in.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well, I was never hugely invested in this show and probably wouldn't have been watching it if not for the local connection which makes it much easier for me to be rational about it? I certainly feel very badly for people who were heavily invested in it and then got disappointed. Still working my way through BSG fallout, I can't imagine having to go through it again. *pats you*

Well there was an interview with RTD a month or so ago saying that they already had ideas for S4 ready to go if the ratings were good which confuses me now because...what do they do with it?

As I said above, I think there ARE things you can do with it. But I worry it would just mean bringing back Jack to angst endlessly and make it all about him. And frankly, his relationship with Ianto was just about the only thing I liked about him at this point.

If they bring him back then I hope to hell they bring back his daughter too so that it's not...easy for him and we have a far more sympathetic person around who hates him.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see what'll happen. I SUSPECT it'll be somewhat like BSG in that hardcore fans are violently opposed but the general casual viewing public are much more accepting of it?

Certainly massive positive press buzz AND fan reaction for the first three episodes means that it's kind of guaranteed to do well based on the pre-release buzz so any disappointment isn't likely to show until, well, now.

I doubt it'll be until any hypothetical next season that we see any real fallout from fan reaction?

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

There were two sets of recordigns weren't there, the ones taken by lois and the ones taken by the assistant lady. I would assume they'd get out.

See, this is why I desperately hope this is the end of Torchwood, because if they do more, they will surely fail to address what happens to society after an event like this, and the betrayal/collusion of the political classes.

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

well, it wasn't that bad with bsg for me because the last season made me steadily more annoyed with the show, so by the time the finale came around, i'd already sort of made my peace with the fact that bsg wouldn't end in a way i'd truly appreciate. but with tw, the first three days this week were so utterly brilliant and i loved being swept up into adoring the show again, and then day and 5 happened. it was like a slap in the face.

i guess they'll assemble a new team and that's that. you made a good case for who could be part of it. i was never that invested in jack as a character, and i mostly liked him with ianto. he should maybe have a guest appearance, but no more. i can imagine that he might show up on doctor who, too, now that's he's out gallivanting about the galaxy.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Even if you're only counting the team members at the beginning of season one then you're forgetting Suzie (and Jack). CyberLisa was Torchwood too and there were more than a few other deaths, either onscreen or mentioned onscreen, of people working for/with Torchwood who were killed for that reason.

Oh, absolutely! I should have clarified - I was trying to think this through from Gwen's perspective and the safety-of-television perspective. Torchwood has a RIDICULOUS number of wayside casualties.

I mean, yes, to some of the viewing public (and some of us wish Gwen and Co. would respond similarly) that was enough to be clued in on this a long time ago. But also in terms of TV Rules they've now killed 3 cast regulars in the space of five episodes. And those are also people Gwen was actively close to and working with. Susie would have been as awful and shocking for Ianto, for example, as would Lisa. And they SHOULD have affected Gwen (and I think that hamfistedly and horrifyingly that was part of the intention in her S1 character arc - to show this stuff did), but it's a different category to Owen, Tosh and Ianto?

But... 10% of children in our society are already treated like shit and I'm not seeing the streets full of mutineers.

Because we're socialised to accept it in a way we're not socialised to accept outright child abduction?

The explication of just how shittily we treat parts of our society was a great chance to, well, not bury it again five minutes later and I don't imagine we'll hear more about this incident in Who material except for the odd off-hand retrospective comment?

Someone from Torchwood Cardiff who believes s/he's the only person available/capable of saving the Earth/whatevz and suffers delusions of competence due to poor writing? ;-P

...yeah. *sigh*

Or ALICE CARTER.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

So we have this actually fairly well-written (with a few glaring and embarassing exceptions) story about what happens when completely inappropriate people fuck about with a no-win situation, make everything worse and get most of themselves killed in the process.

Not that I didn't see it before, but CoE was a big neon advertisement as to just how much Jack wants to be The Doctor. He took over Torchwood, an organization The Doctor hated, as a way to, as he saw, continue his work when he wasn't around earth, not to mention, impress him. The problem is Jack isn't nearly as smart as The Doctor. He doesn't have the knowledge base he does nor does he have the Tardis. But he's convinced himself that he, too, can save the world. Maybe had The Doctor run into that room with his sonic screwdriver and his reputation proceeding him, maybe all those people wouldn't have died. But Jack really thought he could run in with a couple of guns and save the day. He really thought it would be that simple?

Since we are making comparisons with BSG, I need to mention that, after Ianto died, my mind went to Dee. I thought about how her death was a turning point. If Anastasia Dualla, who had always been there to support others, to convince them to keep moving forward, would choose to put a gun to her head and give up, things were very, very bad and a new kind of hell was about to be unleashed. It was bleak. It was devastating. It made a point. Ianto dies because he blindly follows his boyfriend.

It's interesting because in some ways I think their problems are opposite. BSG's finale didn't, to my mind, follow through enough on the bleak reality of their situation and previous stories, while TW focused on it exclusively, but this was at odds with both its previous seasons and ultimate fallout?

Even I have to admit I expected the BSG finale to be much darker. And even though I'm largely OK with the ending, I get how it failed to live up to expectations. While I, and I'm sure the fans, certainly didn't expect CoE to be a lighthearted romp, given what was presented in the last two series I think fans had legitimate expectations about how CoE would conclude. And it certainly didn't involve losing yet another member of the team so soon and Jack ordering the death of his own grandchild.

[bluerosefairy.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this reaction. I've been combing through the rest of my flist, which is divided into "worst. finale. ever." without a reason for it, or busy wailing over the unfairness of sinking Jack/Ianto forever. And yes, you nailed my exact problems with Torchwood, both as a show, and as an organization. I think if Rusty could get the hell over his fanboy issues, and had written this as a stand-alone series with original characters, without the Torchwood/Whoverse trappings, it would have been brilliant. But yet again, he manages to screw up what should have been a horrifically gutpunchy morality tale.

And yes, Alice should take over Torchwood. I would so be onboard with that.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

I was trying to think this through from Gwen's perspective

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

Because we're socialised to accept it in a way we're not socialised to accept outright child abduction?

But aren't most people in our society socialised to accept that the most disprivileged 10% can have their children taken away from them by governmental institutions "for their own good"? I think there are ways to spin the situation which the majority would accept because, after all, it was specifically planned to never ever effect them (unlike disprivilege which can take a person or family by surprise and, I suspect, that's why most people support the welfare state). Alternatively, everyone might die 20 years later from a disease spread through unsanitary telephones. /HHGttG

The explication of just how shittily we treat parts of our society was a great chance to, well, not bury it again five minutes later and I don't imagine we'll hear more about this incident in Who material except for the odd off-hand retrospective comment?

From the pov that seeds have been planted in people's heads then I don't care about the rest. From the Who fan pov then the new Who franchise has dropped that ball so often I don't think one more time would strike me as any way unusual. It's one of the side-effects of every threat being planetary in scale and public in attack. Smaller or more subtle threats tend to be part of more satisfactory storylines imo.

Or ALICE CARTER.

I can't imagine why Alice Carter would have anything to do with Torchwood. I wouldn't if I was her. If I was Mrs Spears though I'd see it as my duty to build a new Torchwood-esque operation starting with Johnson and Habiba (if she could be recruited)... and, of course, Gwen and her delusions of competence probably couldn't be left out entirely (maybe a consultant position?).

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hi and welcome!

I'm glad you found something interesting in my write-up. I mean, I'm not so particularly bound up in Ianto's death specifically because he wasn't my favourite but at the same time I appreciate that for you that became a symbol of the same lack of fallout that bothers me.

As you say...it just goes on? There was such a chance to explode this. That stuff that Frobisher was saying, that any minute civilisation was going to collapse, what did it matter? That threat was real. And it never materialised.

I don't feel as strongly as you do about the ending, but only because the second season finale effectively divorced me from being able to be all that emotionally invested in this show so I'm watching it from a very detatched perspective, which kind of gives me the distance to see the good stuff hidden in there. If I were still an active fan, I'm not sure I'd be able to see, "dude, you so ALMOST had something great," rather than, "OMFG WHUT?"

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Not that I didn't see it before, but CoE was a big neon advertisement as to just how much Jack wants to be The Doctor.

Huh. Good point - I hadn't considered that. And it's also really a good point that in turning Torchwood into an organisation that functioned the way the Doctor did, they pretty much proved Queen Victoria right. You know, about how dangerous the attitude is and also undermined the point for which it was set up.

Your comparison with Dualla is also a really good one. I completely agree. And I can see how Ianto's death MIGHT have had that same impact if not for, well...all the context.

While I, and I'm sure the fans, certainly didn't expect CoE to be a lighthearted romp, given what was presented in the last two series I think fans had legitimate expectations about how CoE would conclude. And it certainly didn't involve losing yet another member of the team so soon and Jack ordering the death of his own grandchild.

Yes, I'd agree with that.

I was okay with that in a lot of ways, but only really because I had my emotional divorce from the show at the end of the second season and so was watching this with quite a lot of distance and pretty much thought those developments might have worked if this was a standalone mini series and we'd never met these characters before.

Like a lot of other issues I might have liked in isolation, as part of a wider series, and when taking into account expectations set up by the series, I think it's on much shakier ground.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hey, you're welcome - I'm glad I'm making sense!

I basically agree with you about RTD. It's frustrating. He's written some good standalone stuff. I haven't seen it but I've heard very good stuff about his mini series The Second Coming. The problem is that he's...lazy now. And working with people who, I think, probably don't criticise or make him rewrite enough. Constantly, I think he has the seeds of a good story which get ruined with easy thirty second solutions and then a "shocking" piece of personal angst/emotion to mask the real implications of the end game?

I'm just particularly frustrated with this one because it really came quite close to being something good.

Alice Carter FTW!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

But aren't most people in our society socialised to accept that the most disprivileged 10% can have their children taken away from them by governmental institutions "for their own good"?

Yes, but I think the key difference is that a lot of that socialised acceptance is down to stigmatisation of parenting abilities and behavioural issues and a comforting belief that the children are actually being sent somewhere better. Which is kind of hard to maintain when you actually have the army attacking families and forcibly removing children on that kind of scale and in this kind of situation. The innoculation story isn't going to hold and it's going to end up being fairly obvious that those kids were being taken to give to the aliens, especially when/if those recordings leak.

Certainly I don't think anyone with any kind of conscience would honestly believe that those kids were being abducted "for their own good" if this story broke in any way, and really, my issue with the ending is that story SHOULD have broke; that story had, um, story potential.

IF that story breaks there are two ways you can take the tale:

1) the other 90% turn a blind eye because it wasn't their kids, falling down on classism and fear and self-interest to pretend it was no big deal, and life ends up going on much as normal.

2) a significant enough portion of the other 90% find this unacceptable and are terrified either for moral reasons or from the selfish fear that next time it will be them, either because they will need more children or because they will have succumbed to disprivilege in the meantime, or simply from the terror that their own government would do something on that scale without public knowledge or consent.

I have no idea which option would be the most realistic, and perhaps I am a little afraid of the answer, but I certainly think that option two would have been the best ending for this story. Not because a story where everyone tries to sweep it under the carpet couldn't be chilling and well-done, but because, for the reasons I stated above, I think this story should have ended in some measurable apocalypse.

I also completely agree with you that one of the problems is New Who's habit of having a global threat every ten minutes and then having everyone go back to normal and their inability to (usually) tell good stories about that. But...again that's part of why I wanted this to be different, and part of my issues with this entire mini series having a lot of problems that specifically stem from it being part of the Whoniverse and how it would have made a much better mini series on its own about Earth's first major public contact with ETs or something. So many of the plotholes and characterisation issues I would have been more ready to forgive if they weren't such glaring repetitions of stuff I've struggled with in this franchise for years. :(

I can't imagine why Alice Carter would have anything to do with Torchwood.

Well first off I bow to your wisdom that Mrs Spears would perhaps be a better choice to start new Competant!Torchwood. As to why Alice would have anything to do with it, firstly, you're right, she might not.

The reasons I brought her up (aside from the fact I thought the actress was really good and enjoyed watching her play the character) is she was the only character at the end I could think of who'd be furious enough and feel she had nothing left to lose to the point where she'd be WILLING to consciously take a job as nihilistically dangerous as Torchwood. In a kind of, "I have nothing left but this damn place, and I hate it, but I have nothing left." I guess it also depends if she's angry enough she'd take it to spite Jack. I certainly wouldn't have pegged her as that kind of character at the start of the mini series, but by the end, I think she's enough of a wild card that if the writers wanted to, they could take her in that direction (not that I seriously expect anyone to ever do anything with her again.)

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

I just watched this show for the first time ever. I am enjoying reading reviews from people who know about the show than I do. I have to admit as I watched I kept thinking, "Becka lives there!" Hee. :-)

About how when you don't have "I'm the Doctor!" to back it up, running into a room and yelling a lot and having that be, apparently, the entirety of your plan, is a pretty ludicrous way to behave and what the hell were you expecting?
Hee! I have missed your ep review humor. Ah, poor cute Jack. I think he thought that would work. They all thought that would work. But alas.

What frustrates me is that had I never seen seasons one and two, I think I would have really been on board with this story. I would have thought the bleakness was self-justifying
Hmm. The bleakness was unexpected. I had seen like 10 minutes of Torchwood before. I kept expecting it would return to that jokey silly feel. Mostly I felt like Lois. I know it was mainly a light-hearted show which is why the ending totally made me sooo sad. But like Lois, I may have been skeptical but I was won over by the idea of Torchwood. I really expected them to win and win BIG. That's what the formula for shows like this usually are. when I saw that little boy being tortured and knew Jack would do it, well . . . that was hard to watch. They didn't win at all.

But we get that scene six months later suggesting that civilisation didn't collapse.
You and me are always agree on that! What the hell happened to the apocalypse? This is why we liked BSG, I think. They never forgot that an apocalypse had happened. I just recently saw Watchmen and . . . (spoilers) . . . an apocalypse actually happened but somehow there were fresh flowers and sunshine in the last scene. What? You promised me apocalypse-fallout!!! You see why now I was annoyed at Cylon-Occupied Caprica and why I liked Terminator: Salvation. I want to see devastation especially when it makes sense to see it. This event on Torchwood was huge. The goverments of the world ROUNDED UP THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN TO SELL TO ALIENS AS DRUGS. Um, no way that could stay a secret. People should have been rioting in the streets for months, maybe years afterward.

I half wish they'd taken the ten per cent just for story potential.
Me too. Though after watching what happened to Stephen I don't know if I could have taken it. But it would have made a better story. That save was out of nowhere at the end.

Personally I vote we put Jack's daughter in charge of it. Now there's a character (and a decent actress) who really has nothing to lose.
Jack's daughter killed me at the end. She is a good actress. Her grief over Stephen and her disgust with Jack were palpable.

BSG's finale didn't, to my mind, follow through enough on the bleak reality of their situation and previous stories, while TW focused on it exclusively, but this was at odds with both its previous seasons and ultimate fallout?
Odd, isn't it? I don't know TW's history but I can tell you I didn't want more death here. Damn, Frobisher was the limit for me. They didn't even really mention it but damn. If they had taken that little girl Gwen was running with well, I don't even know. But BSG? Promised us bleakness for four years. I think TW's promises or previous seasons were seeming to lead somewhere different than this. I guess . . . show creators can do what they what. But to change a show's complete tone way into its run takes skill. I don't think BSG hit its mark doing that. Not sure about TW.

if this wasn't really the start of the end of everything, then what was the point?
This is certainly a stand-alone mini-series for me. I'm not sure what the point is. Sometimes you don't win? But for that to be true, you are right, then Jack shouldn't come back. That would undermine the meaning of this film. Hmm. For me it needed more something at the end. For Torchwood, for London, for the world. I'm not sure what, though. I have limited interest since I was just whiling a Sunday morning away and probably won't think too much about this. But just like I know those BSG peeps got eaten by lions, I know that the 456 will be back. And what will humanity do then?

[cyborganize.livejournal.com]

this is, I think, hands down the best five episodes of Torchwood we've seen.

um, RLY? I thought it was a very clumsy attempt at complex social commentary.

I agree with you that the ultmate effect is to portray Torchwood as a dangerously incompetent rogue organization that runs around making bad situations worse, but somehow I don't think that was the *intended* message. Presuming we were meant to agree with Torchwood that offering up the children is WRONG (I didn't necessarily), then especially through all Gwen's tiresome self-righteousness it positioned Torchwood still as the scrappy heroes fighting against all odds. The *supposed* tragedy is not that they're bad at saving the world but that the personal costs of saving the world are too great, boo hoo.

I also agree that the stakes felt hollow, especially with the ending reset. But I thought there was a larger structural reason for the lack of narrative satisfaction: there was nothing for them to FIGHT. TPTB took a scenario about aliens who want to destroy the Earth and inexplicably rendered the aliens irrelevant to the conflict. No-win situation = no story -- it was hard to get invested in either of the options on the table (offering the children or refusing to offer the children) because both were essentially apocalypse. And they did a tremendous amount of implausible handwaving to distract us from the third option, which is obviously what you SHOULD do in such a situation: FIGHT THE ALIENS.

Sure, you'll probably lose, but wouldn't you rather spend the time you're stalling for coming up with a doomed alien-fighting plan rather than a doomed child-collecting plan or, in Torchwood's case, a doomed stopping the child-collecting plan? Speaking of which, why can't the aliens just scoop up the kids from school themselves with their magic beam?? This whole "the 456 are invisible and communicate by magic" bit really strained credulity -- I mean, you have one of them right there to study. I know it's TORCHWOOD and expecting its plots to make sense is asking a lot, but this is why they do better with 42-minute eps. 5 hours is too much time to spend thinking "there's no real conflict here"; I couldn't get excited aboout the (attempted) moral complexity because Torchwood vs. Government are ON THE SAME SIDE vis a vis not wanting the world to end. I imagine the technowank that pitted humans aginst humans was supposed to be deep, but I just don't think the subtle political drama meshed with ALIEN DOOM. SRSLY Torchwood, stick to fighting aliens (and sex).

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing you have to understand is, this is the show I stopped watching because I thought it was so crap. So when I say it's the best run of episodes it has (not the best individual episodes - there have been single episodes that have been better), it's kind of like damning it with faint praise.

Most of the insanely stupid plot holes that this plot has are also present in most of the rest of TW, although perhaps the campy nature of the show masks it better in previous seasons (though honest, I always thought that the campy stuff was fan reading and the actual show was trying to be all gritty and stuff and that's half of what put me off. It was like a children's show with sex and swearing and that was just...weird.)

Despite the fact that in retrospect I think that you may be right, the reading we were supposed to have was the massive personal cost to the team rather than the insane incompetance of the team/the futility of their attempts to win a no-win situation, for the majority of the mini series, I felt like my reading of the situation ("Boy you've really fucked it up now, mate!") was dominant and I wasn't constantly distracted by the notion that I was reading against the text. And frankly, I've kind of given up enjoying any of RTD's fiction unless I'm reading against the text.

So yeah. I guess I stand by my assessment that this was almost a series of episodes that were half decent.

Ultimately, the reset at the end fucked up anything interesting it might have achieved, and I have to admit that the stuff I found actually good in any way was almost entirely the stuff that wasn't about Torchwood. Such as the collaboratory scenes with the prime minister and the cabinet, Lois Habiba and Jack's daughter and her responses to everything.

Which means what I think I'm really saying is, this could have been good if it wasn't part of Torchwood. Obviously there are still gaping plot holes (like your apt point about the magic aliens just TAKING the damn kids with their firey column of transportation) which need fixing. But as a social scifi short story about What Happens When The Government Decides To Do Something That Awful compounded by Discovering Your Heroes Are Incompetant, it did have the ingredients of a story that could have been subtler (or at least more thought-provoking) had it like...not been written by RTD about Torchwood characters. :/

So yeah. I DO think these are the best episodes of TW mainly because it's the closest I've seen TW to actually even making me THINK that somehow it might have been better instead of like, wanting to claw out my eyes or being actively offended?

I understand exactly why people like it as a mindless, silly, campy drama about fighting aliens in dumb ways and having lots of sex. But for me, THAT reading requires me to ignore too much and read against the text too much too?