TSCC: Jesse Flores & Derek Reese

[beccatoria]

My rewatch of TSCC continues apace and I'm now just three episodes from the end and about to jump into actual vidding which I confess I find a little terrifying (WHICH IS NOT A SURRENDER, YOU KNOW WHO I'M TALKING TO!)

Anyway, I think both Jesse and Derek are pretty much nuts, which is not to say I don't like them, just they are very damaged and dangerous people. And I has Thoughts.

To break this down by points, because I'm not sure writing it in a paragraph wouldn't get horribly rambly to the point of uselessness:

1) Derek dragged 6 year old into a gunfight as collateral and blackmail material. The fact it wasn't his plan to get her hurt really isn't the issue. He went out there planning to murder the guy he thought was her father with nothing but his hands over her eyes and might well have gotten her killed.

2) Derek murdered Billy Wisher, who was like his brother, even when it was probably too late to make a difference. He didn't try to explain, or reason, he just executed him.

3) Derek has no ethical problems with Jesse killing a fence and his goons only because he was throwing her name around a little too freely. In fact he implies he was there to do exactly that when he found her and everyone dead.

4) Derek is shocked at Jesse's suggestion that anything good could come of Riley's death because she was an innocent girl.

I don't necessarily think this is dissonant, but I sure as hell think that Derek would have shot Riley or put her in danger, or dragged her out into the middle of a firefight to use as emotional blackmail material if he needed to do it to complete his mission. If it had been to safeguard his brother's memory, or Jesse's future, or John's life.

The chief difference here is perspective. Calculation. I don't think Derek's morals are actually all that different to Jesse's I just think she's a strategist and he's not. What if Riley, the exact same "good kid" who didn't deserve what she got, was someone he knew needed to die to make sure John Connor didn't end up crazy or dead? She'd get what Billy Wisher got, no second thoughts.

The only difference is this wasn't already written. This wasn't in any plan but Jesse's plan. The only difference is the personal, which everything is to Derek and everything stopped - she convinced herself stopped - being to Jesse. Everything Derek does he does for his brother, for his nephew, and for Jesse. That's how he understands the future or the lack of one. Jesse did something against his nephew and that's something he can't reconcile. I can't help but feel given what we know of Future John's characterisation, that Derek might have helped carry out plans just as sacrificial, just with the comfort of not really knowing the full ramifications of what he was doing. And with the comfort of believing John Connor must be right, as opposed to knowing Jesse Flores may very well not be.

It took me a while to understand why he was telling Jesse about killing Billy Wisher, about how he did that for her - an innocent guy sacrificed for the future. How that fit.

I think what he was trying to grapple with was how Jesse put herself in Wisher's shoes. Turned herself into someone he has to kill for the future, except now, who does he do it for? He only has her, and John who he needs so much from and trusts so little.

I think he had to try and take her out, had to convince himself that what she did was over some kind of line or he'd have to admit too much about himself, about John, about his fears.

I think he missed deliberately.

I think it was one of the few times I've found him interesting.

I think the main difference between Derek and Jesse at this point is that Derek still loves John Connor. Otherwise he wouldn't expect so much from a 16 year old. I think half Derek's attempts to push John towards Connor and away from Baum, stem from being unable to tell the difference between being a father figure and being child unable to see his father figure weak and human.

Both Derek and Jesse want to impress their vision of John Connor onto John. But Jesse must do so at a distance having had her vision of Future John destroyed and having been tricked and cast out by him in violent, destructive ways. Her plan is likewise violent and destructive. She's not an adult angry at a child, she's a child angry an adult. The reality of John Connor at 16 can't touch that rage; it doesn't matter how he is now. Until she meets him. Because she loved him (the idea of him).

It's something I really applaud the show for showing rather than telling on this point. While, as this looooong ramble shows, I have a more complex reading of Derek's outwardly somewhat hypocritical sudden respect for the lives of innocents, it would certainly be plausible to question whether the show put that there to make us more likely to believe that this honestly is a line not even Derek would cross - to really hammer home the message of how fucked up Jesse's plan was. To artificially White Knight Derek at Jesse's expense.

Something that helps me choose not to take that interpretive path is the way it's right after her least sympathetic act, killing Riley, that we see what made her this way - that we get her sympathetic story as the centrepiece of a two-parter.

Again an element of her story that was arguably not needed or overblown and gender essentialist, was the miscarriage after scuttling the Jimmy Carter. I have no strong feelings on this; I can see both sides of a possible argument, but I tentatively come down in favour of it. I would have believed Jesse would become completely disillusioned with Connor after the clusterfuck that was her mission on the Carter but I do think that adding an element that personal seals the deal. I would worry more about it being "OMGS Crazy Baby Mad Women!" but there are strong parent-child themes that run throughout this show.

Her attitude in her conversation with Cameron before she knows shows that she's really having a hard time accepting what happened, and that she's furious, (and again, just because it bears reiterating, I really love how these episodes show her going from blind faith to hurt confusion to rage with regards to John and his leadership). So I don't think it's presented as her sole motivation.

What is does, though, is provide an interesting counterpoint in her and Derek's attitudes to John.

Jesse is partially motivated by her lost child, which John Connor caused her to lose. To Derek, John Connor is the lost child. Part of his brother whom he thought he'd lost forever. Unlike Jesse, whatever he sees in John that disappoints him, it hasn't yet come to pass. This John isn't Future John and Derek has the opportunity of trying to step in and mold the kid in a way that is more socially acceptable (i.e. an uncle taking on a paternal role in place of his dead brother) rather than turning to murderous schemes to fridge girls.

And...thus is my thinking.

John Connor is all any of them have, and he's also the reason they lose everything else. That kind of thing can drive a person crazy. What do you do if you stop loving the only thing you have left?

I don't think what Jesse did was any more insane than things Derek has done. I just think that what Jesse did, for Derek to accept it, would mean having to accept more about himself than he was able.

Derek needs to believe he does these things for a reason, that there are lines he won't cross, and that John Connor will save them all.

Derek needs to believe that dying for John Connor is a good enough reason to die.

Jesse stopped believing that.

Comments

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Ach, the third season of this show would have been beyond epic.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

(And I think I need to watch this show again too, specifically to watch for all the parent/child themes.)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's definitely been something I've noticed on rewatch. Aside from the obvious John and Sarah and Derek stuff that I spoke of above, there's the whole Zeiracorp storyline with the Weaverbot raising a human child and creating her own robot son. With Ellison drafted in as John Henry's father figure, to teach him morals and guide him. We can even dig deeper than that and point out that the reason for Ellison's marriage failing was a disagreement over children and the state of the world.

I also think it might be relevant to note that in T2, Arnie's Terminator stepped into the space that Kyle Reese occupied in the first movie and became almost a father figure for John at points, whereas in TSCC, Cameron is put in the position of masquerading as Sarah's child.

And then there's Riley, the orphan no one wants, rejected by every parental figure she comes across. It's interesting that Jesse's go to line when Riley wants more support is "I'm not your mother." Especially since I think you could arguably hold up Jesse's use of Riley - her molding her into someone to save the future, someone without the luxury of being a child - as a twisted mirror of Sarah training John and never letting up with that.

And yes, the third season would, should have been epic. :(

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

See, you post clever thinky stuff. I just post boobs.

I wonder if the third season would have unfolded as the disintegration of the family unit, with John being seperated from his mother. (And perhaps leading inevitably to the disappointment children experience when they realise their parents are just human. Infallible creatures.)

And yes, the Riley/Jesse interaction was fascinating. Particularly when she said she wasn't her mother, because until then I had assumed they were at some point lovers. Or at least fuckbuddies. Which I suppose in a sense would make them a very dark shadowdouble for John and Sarah.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

John always knew she was broken. I felt the show's point was to have John realize where she wasn't broken.

Also, Becca, I think you really need to watch to the end before you make these judgements on Derek because I think there are 3 versions of Derek. Same at the base, but with major events in their lives either missing or in place that slightly alter their purpose and motivations and, I think, how they would have reacted to the different situations.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's an interesting theory. I wonder if they were clever enough to wind multiple variations of the future characters into the show, in order to show the results of future plotted timeline changes...

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Well they did, and I think that was Derek, but in a very subtle way.

The Derek Jesse knew wasn't the same Derek we knew. Remember the whole torture episode? Our Derek hadn't been tortured. Had he been, that would have altered his personality, perceptions and motivations significantly and possibly made him a greater ally for Jesse's plot. And, you know, made him truly crazy.

I could have read that torture episode wrong, but that, along with the military school one seemed to be all about the "The future's not set ..." theme.

And then there's final Derek, which I can't discuss as it'a a spoiler for Becca.

Of all the characters we met, Derek was the only one for whom we know there were severe changes to his future. Everyone else was fairly constant.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Actually I have seen the whole show - I'm just rewatching! ;) So yeah, don't worry, I know all about Derek.

I don't think I'm really judging him in a harsh way though. I just...think that part of his character is driven by personal loyalty and that he fires more on emotional than cold logic despite being an excellent soldier and excellent at the logics of battle. He is capable of being very cold and practical when it's not about his brother or his nephew or his girlfriend.

Mainly this whole ridiculously long thingy was to say...I didn't buy that Derek has fundamentally different morals to Jesse with regards to killing a girl in order to save Future John; I mostly think that it was the specific situation which forced different reactions out of them rather than underlying ethical differences.

Which isn't too different from what you're saying just...in reverse. I blame the situation for bringing out different "flavours" of the characters rather than shifting life experiences due to various futures.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I would have loved to have seen Third Derek (the one from a future without John) to see what he was really like.

I was going to say I agree with you, but then I separated things out and realized that no, I don't think they do have fundamentally different morals, even though their motivation (John) remains the same.

Jesse is cold and calculating and wants to inflict pain and will kill an innocent in cold blood; premeditated. Reasoning: (1) Rage at the betrayal, (2) desire to ensure that John does not become so heavily involved with the machines. I actually believe that #2 was a greater motivator for Jesse, even with the loss of her child.

Derek will kill, but only in order to remove an immediate threat to John or Kyle. Reason: (1) Protect Connor.

I think that *does* make them morally different. It's the difference between first degree murder and second degree murder. Jesse premeditated Riley's death.

Derek would not have killed Riley because she posed no immediate threat to John's life. Security risk that she was, I think Derek was in/out of touch enough to know that John required more humanity than what Sarah was allowing him.

Derek would have killed Jesse though because she did pose a threat to John. Did he miss on purpose? Subconsciously, yes. Because John Connor ordered him not to kill her and Derek is programmed to obey John. But I think he fully intended to kill her.

As I write this, I find myself comparing Derek to a Terminator trying to understand its human's orders, and then learning more and more about humanity. He's been a soldier obeying orders all this time. Now, seeing pastJohn, he's starting to understand why. He's not unlike Cameron.

I think the moral issue is being confused because of Derek's willingness to sacrifice not just an innocent, but a child. In true warfare, you have to be willing to destroy what's theirs to protect what's yours, and more often than not, that means the innocent. Derek understands that, whether he realizes it or not, because he's lived in a time where the rules of engagement mean nothing.

Currently, our military is facing a lot of difficulty because of our rules of engagement. THe enemy knows this and is using children to do their dirty work. That makes the enemy evil, but if we shoot that child, the evil is immediately transfered to us, because you're omg not supposed to kill children!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

But I think that the premeditation or not is...more a difference in personality. It's that Derek wouldn't think ahead to consider threats to John in wider chess-game sort of way, just in a straight-up who's aiming a gun at him sort of way.

I mean, he premeditated Andy Goode's murder, because he knew what Goode was going to build. A threat.

But the kid he dragged into that firefight, that was just a bystander, just an innocent kid who served his ultimate goal of saving John Connor.

In that way, Riley is exactly the same, a kid Jesse dragged into the line of fire to save John Connor.

Jesse is simply defining "protect Connor" more broadly than his simple physical safety. It's something that Derek is unable to do because, as you note, he is so programmed to obey Connor and believe in him; that's what changed about Jesse.

But if Derek knew what Jesse knows? (Assuming Jesse is right for a second, which I'm not convinced of). What would he do then? If simply taking a bullet for Connor isn't enough?

Ultimately no, I don't think he would go with the plan as it stands, but part of that is perhaps because of his relationship to John.

I'm not trying to say they're identical, I just think that the reason Derek is so horrified isn't because he really has a proscription against good things coming out of the deaths of innocent girls (because if that kid he dragged into the gunfight had died but given him the distraction to save John, he would have thought of that as a good outcome). It's not really for the reasons he says. It's because he can't comprehend of a way in which what Jesse did was to protect Connor rather than a betrayal of him.

He only sees Jesse's lack of trust in John, not her desire to save him.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Fundamentally the same, approaching from different angles, I guess? With Jesse being far more devious and planny about it all.

(I was going to put Goode in there because it was premeditated, with Goode being an innocent, but I didn't felt it fit because, while Goode doesn't intend his invention to be what it becomes, it is a direct threat and he's working on it right now so he has to be stopped. There was premeditation to the planning, but really, that planning was "go back in time, find Goode. Kill. As opposed to "Take waif, hone her into love interest, teach her all about John, drive wedge between John and Cameron.... Kill to frame Cameron.)

Poor Derek's horror really just comes from the fact that there's far too much thought involved in Jesse's plan and she lost him somewhere along the way when he realized Jesse doesn't trust John. Derek is simple, the poor dear. :)

(Assuming Jesse is right for a second, which I'm not convinced of).

What is she right about?

Does John even exist in her future, I wondered? Is he even alive?

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Fundamentally the same, approaching from different angles, I guess? With Jesse being far more devious and planny about it all.

Yes! That's exactly what I mean!

I do agree there's a real difference with Goode because he was already a threat whereas Riley was an opportunity to remove a threat maybe. But that's why I think that Riley is perhaps a better comparison to the little girl albeit with a much shoddier outcome. But again emblematic of the difference in approach and sneaky planniness and stuff?

As to John in the future, yeah, I think Cameron thinks John is alive and just totally isolating himself but when Cameron said, "Telling me is the same as telling John," I totally thought, fuck me, John's dead isn't he and Cameron is keeping the show running. o_O

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

"Telling me is the same as telling John," I totally thought, fuck me, John's dead isn't he and Cameron is keeping the show running. o_O

In S1, I thought Cameron keeping the cyborg parts had to do with a need to save John; wherein he becomes a Cyborg himself. Later we find it was just so she could complete her mission with John Henry... (right? that was always her mission..?)

Then when Cameron said that, then yes, I was pretty sure John was dead, but I was already prepared for this since John was dead in T3's future and it was his wife in charge (DAMN YOU, SALVATION AND BALE'S PRIDE). So this was an interesting twist that not only did we have a dead John, which is acceptable, but we had a Terminator girlfriend running things. Everyone knew she was a Terminator, plus they also knew she had replaced someone close to John in order to assassinate him but John had reprogrammed her...

And then in the end, you are very clearly introduced to Alison again, who is right up top with teh Reese boys....

I think we need to petition the makers to make a graphic novel version of S3.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Hrmm, yes, I definitely need tod ig out these discs and watch them again too.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

The general public probably appreciates the boobs more. :p

I never really assumed they were lovers at any point mainly because Riley was introduced in John's age bracket while Jesse was introduced with this really strong tie to Derek even though she's likely a bit younger than him. Which isn't to say I FREAK OUT OMG at the possibility of an age-difference in a relationship, just that I clocked it as older/younger sibling or parent/child more than lovers from the start. But one thing I will say is that it's painfully obvious that Riley was in love with Jesse, and I'd forgotten that she screams that as her during their final confrontation but it was awesome and sad.

As to the third season...I think it definitely would have continued exploring family units. With John ending up in the future with his father and uncle (and Allison), and with Sarah and Ellison and Savannah still in the present it looks more like a reconfiguration of family units than an outright destruction, but...damn them for never letting us find out how that would play out. :(

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Yes, it was the stuff around their final confrontation that made me start to think Jesse had at some point had a sexual relationship with Riley. I think probably to bind her more closely to her, so that she'd be more likely to do what she was told, in an attempt to please Jesse. Because I got the impression that everything Riley did, was in an attempt to please Jesse.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

To add to your T2 comment, it's Sarah who recognizes the T800's role, noting that she had given John many father figures, but each served to teach him something in the whole fight for survival. It's very interesting that the show chose to start with Sarah having finally settled, it seemed, with a single man who could offer a solid father figure for John (perhaps it's in that six months that John's compassion was honed), but of course, she ran away. Was happy to see him return.

Note also that Sarah has always been about teaching John to survive, which Derek disagrees with. Or rather, Derek feels it's time Derek learns how to lead now and I think Derek was trying to figure out how to give that to John, but of all the men in John's life, Derek is the one who has no real idea how to do that, because any parenting he might have done for Kyle was also about teaching him to survive. But somewhere along the way, the screwed up Derek and the robot Cameron managed to show Sarah that there was more to John Connor than survival (not that they were the only sources to Sarah's awakening).

Also, can't overlook the timeline and the messing up thereof. I think Jesse thought she had a strong ally in Derek, but the Derek she knew had been tortured all to hell. The Derek we knew, hadn't been. Subtle differences that might have made a big difference in attitude and levels of sanity.

Sorry.. things coming back to me now, but I really need to watch again. I think I'm going to have to disagree with your final statement in essence. Jesse no longer believed that what JOhn had become was worth dying for. But she still believed in John Connor and, despite the rage, she was still trying to get that John back with her convoluted plan of revealing Cameron as evil and turning him against her. Otherwise, if she just wanted to hurt John, then she really needed only to give him Riley and then take her away. And she could have told Derek about the future she knew where Cameron was in charge. Derek didn't know that future. Only knew Cameron as bad. Seeing her here as an ally, and trusting Jesse, there's reason to believe that Derek would have strongly considered the truth of her reality.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I think you make an interesting point about how Sarah teaches John to survive rather than lead. In many ways I think this is because that's what Sarah has taught herself to do and more than that, Sarah doesn't see herself in the post-J-day future, I don't think. I don't think she's ever considered herself still being around when John is leading. Her role ends there, her only job is to keep him alive.

I think that Derek wants John to be able to lead now in part because he recognises this is also something John needs, but also because Derek needs that from John. Derek needs for John to be Future Awesome John just as much as Jesse does, except different experiences and relationships to John mean this comes out differently. But I certainly think there were times when Derek was pushing John to be more John Connor and less John Baum less because it was what John needed and more because it was what Derek needed.

I also think John's character gets stronger as the series continues; by the end I really like the way he has developed a very secretive, very patient intelligence.

Regarding Derek and his torture, yes, you are correct that in one timeline he was tortured by the Greys and in another he apparently wasn't which yes, does mean he may well have had a different take on some things. But I think that if Jesse was so sure she would have him on side, she would have told him more than she did. Also the Derek we did know for most of the series did have very strange things happen to him in that house where the robots played piano music. He has no memory of what happened to him in that room, and Cameron makes a few tantalisingly vague comments, like when she rescues him so he won't tell John's location. Derek says he never would and Cameron tells him that it's happened before.

As to the final statement, I think the issue here is actually less disagreeing in essence and more a lack of clarity on my part.

Jesse stopped believing blindly that John Connor was a good enough reason to die. At least, the John Connor of her future. She stopped trusting him with her life and took matters into her own hands, trying to fix what she once had, trying to regain that Connor whose judgment she did trust implicitly. Though kind of like broken faith, I'm not sure she ever really would have succeeded. But yes, she was trying to "save" John Connor in her own way, otherwise she could also have just shot him. As John himself says, he knows she won't because he's John Connor.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Sarah expected to always be around for John. She's shocked to find that she dies before anything happens. "I thought I had more time."

She knew she could always be killed, but I think she believed that she was going to be around to keep him alive because she couldnt' trust anyone else to do it.

I don't think she ever planned to teach him how to lead. She just knows that he will so she has to get him that far. It never dawned on her that there's so much more to John than merely his survival.

But dammit I love the end when she does realize this and LET'S HIM STEP INTO A COMPLETE UNKNOWN WITH THE "ENEMY." That voice overed "I love you," was so resounding.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

But I certainly think there were times when Derek was pushing John to be more John Connor and less John Baum less because it was what John needed and more because it was what Derek needed.

So true. Derek is a soldier and that's all he knows how to be. Which also makes it so interesting that he's the least father figurely male in John's life, despite being that close biologically to actually being John's dad.

Derek says he never would and Cameron tells him that it's happened before.

Ah right. Which could even be reference to the same torture as what Jesse was trying to remind him of. I wonder the reasons for his forgetfullness... damn you missing third season! I want you, but I don't!

[chaila.livejournal.com]

I'll be back for this! <#

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

\o/ <#

[chaila.livejournal.com]

So this is awesome. So awesome that I do not actually have much to add. I like it when you apply your shiny brain to things like Derek Reese, who I really don't find UNinteresting per se, and yet who I kind of refuse to pay too much attention to out of fannish spite. I absolutely don't think Jesse and Derek's morals are different at all. (With the caveat that I haven't seen this specific episode in awhile) I doubt Derek would even need to know that Riley needed to die to save John or Jesse or whoever; he doesn't even see the possibility because, as you say, he won't look. Because he's looking at this John, his nephew, not the Future John Jesse has in mind. I don't even think Derek's really meant to have found some new respect for the lives of innocents, so much as he's looking at Riley as someone who was important to John specifically. As a random girl, I doubt he'd care what Jesse thought about Riley and the potential benefits of her death.

she's a strategist and he's not

<3 She is, perhaps, more calculating, a little more cold-eyed rationality to Derek's undirected rage? They both obviously hate the machines, but Jesse's rage is a little more constructive, generally? A large part of the time, Derek just seems angry.

I think your observation that it's really all more personal for Derek is spot-on. I also didn't think the show artificially White Knighted Derek at the expense of Jesse. (Whether the fandom does this, I think, is a different question, but we know this). Because I wouldn't put it past Derek to be part of Jesse's plan, really, pre-his jump back, pre knowing John as his nephew? But the Connors adopted him. The difference, then, isn't morals, but family. That Derek found and Jesse threatens, and Derek needs to believe he'll do anything to protect because he's made that his mission. Otherwise they're all just drifting helplessly. Which is interesting and ties back into your point that it's just personal for Derek. And that Jesse and Derek diverge not in their morals but only in this specific time in their relationship to John and how that dictates what they just have to do to avoid believing that it was all for nothing anyway. Which is pretty much what you said, but I like agreeing in more words than are strictly necessary.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I believe there is a far more simplistic reasoning for their divergence in that Jesse knows and has seen things that Derek simply has not. Derek still believes in the idolized John Connor and makes his decisions based on that. Jesse has learned what John COnnor really is and is trying to get him back to what Derek knew before he left.

Derek also has to figure out what his role is with John and Sarah. I don't believe he feels he is in a family situation, though it's more so than anything Jesse has. Neither Sarah nor John trust Derek enough to make him have any kind of familial feeling, whether or not he knew the truth.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Derek also has to figure out what his role is with John and Sarah. I don't believe he feels he is in a family situation, though it's more so than anything Jesse has. Neither Sarah nor John trust Derek enough to make him have any kind of familial feeling, whether or not he knew the truth.

While I think it's an awkward family unit I do think that they form one. Derek flat out says to Sarah after she tries to ditch him that he thought Kyle's relationship to both of them counted for something. And Sarah basically says that her son's safety counts for more, because Sarah trusts no one. But it doesn't change the fact that Derek thought, or hoped, it did and that John called Derek to meet them and refused to ditch him. So basically I think all three have various trust issues, but it's mostly Sarah who freaks out and refuses to let Derek in on the family side of things?

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Well Sarah's trust issues are so intense that she never wants *anyone* in on the family part, not even herself. She doesn't want to be a lovey dovey mom because John will keep coming back for her when he should be saving himself. I don't think she can fathom why this keeps happening despite all her training.

Somewhere throughout the second season, she realizes that John needs more than just survival abilities and perhaps there's a grudging realization that to become The Leader, he needs that training, which she doesn't know how to give, but more importantly, he needs compassion. He already has it, but she's been trying to take it away. Derek, her fiance and even Cameron make her realize that it's a part of him; it's the part of him that makes him the person people will die for.

And yes, I love his growth in S2 as we see more of how the parts of him come together. The Survivor, as taught by Mom. The Compassionate, as learned from...? And the Leader, as taught by many.

Which is all blown out of the water when he gets to the future and we find no one knows who the hell he is, which is what makes that ending SO DAMN AWESOME. What next? Derek and Kyle raise him to be the leader we know? Sarah isn't even part of the Judgement Day history anymore?

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I think some of John's compassion does come from his mother though. I mean, for all Derek wants him to be a leader, he still constantly harps on about how "that boy is acting less like John Connor and more like John Baum" everyday. Sarah is a pretty loving and compassionate person, much as she tries to hide it.

The fact she's never killed anyone until halfway through S2 and the way she fights so hard against not only Cameron but also Derek's brutal tactics kind of shows that. Partly she's just from a different paradigm but...she's a loving person.

She feels she should be cold and practical at her son all the time but she loves him deeply and he knows that. Sarah's probably incredibly unhelpful dichotomy is one of constantly trying to get John to settle down, settle in, hide himself in his new, ordinary identity - when she talks up getting his new ID as "a whole new you". Wants to remember things like Pizza Day at school, but then panics and uproots everything and wants him to stop being John Reese and start being John Connor again in the half hour it will take them to pack their stuff and ditch out on Charley.

It's whiplash that isn't fair on John but also tells me there's more to Sarah and what she wants for her son than total isolation.

I think that she never expected to die when John was so young, and perhaps had flat out never considered what her life would be like after J-Day but I really don't think she ever had considered her life after J-Day either. Maybe she assumed she died in it. I mean, Cameron basically tells her that she dies when John is still a teenager, years and years before J-Day which I think is why she's so shocked and thought she had more time.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Please forgive me, Becca. I'm working on memories that are more than a bit vague and things keep coming to me. I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to get things out in my head. Obviously, we should be sitting together in front of the TV with some popcorn and Pepsi to have these discussions!

I do agree that John's compassion comes from Sarah, though we could get into a nature vs. nurture discussion here because I also believe that it has always been an intrinsic part of him that she's tried to suppress in him as she tries to suppress it in herself because she feels it's contrary to survival instinct.

Re: Sarah's death. I have an image in my head from T1 where Kyle is talking about The Sarah Connor. She was alive then and everyone knew her and he was in love with her before he even came back in time.

Who was it she killed in S2, again? I know she said she had killed someone to protect John, but later, we learn that it was really John that had killed the person (strangled him, no? Which was even more telling as this was, I feel, the start of the new Leader John with his patient calculations etc).

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Dude, I love your argumentativeness! \o/

But maybe one day we can also rewatch with popcorn and pepsi in person. *hugs*

And I definitely agree that Sarah tries to suppress her compassion and John's, I just don't think she always manages it very well. In a weird way I think that her compassion is most prominent when she's around Cameron because she becomes more aware that it's what makes her difference from the machines; because suddenly she can't just assume her natural inclination will be the right thing because she has to forcibly impress human compassion into Cameron's behaviour?

I always thought the "The Sarah Connor" thing was because she was a legend, because John spoke about her. Part of the reason I at least didn't think she was around by the time Kyle got her picture is that it would be kind of creepy if he was in love with her when she was old enough to be his mom via a picture of her when she was younger or something?

So from the start I thought that Sarah was someone everyone knew by reputation but wasn't actually alive.

Re: Sarah killing people, yeah the guy at the start is strangled by John to save Sarah, but later in that season, Sarah shoots a man through the chest as he's trying to kill her (I think he might actually be trying to strangle her? But I can't recall exactly) while she's investigating a warehouse in the desert.

It later turns out he survived (even though she went to his funeral) and he kidnaps her in the dead of night and pumps her full of drugs in an episode that at first appears to be about her going to a sleep clinic and having nightmares about the man she killed holding her captive but in the end turns out to be about the man she killed holding her hostage and the drugs making her think she's in a sleep clinic.

Anyway, she escapes, and kills him again, presumably for real this time since she shoots him straight in the head.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I never had issue with Kyle + Sarah initially because Michael Beihn looks so old. But when they gave us a new Kyle that looks like a kid, and then he's talking to Sarah and she's all lovey with him ... that really threw me off. And Kyle looks much younger than Derek.

I'll have to rewatch/reread T1. I know Sarah was idolized in that manner, but I'm fairly certain she was at least a fighter and not just mom. That's the history I've always worked with, but then T3 threw in the cancer loop, further reiterating the concept that the future is not set.

I totally forgot about the warehouse guy. And worse, I apparently slept through the sleep session one and missed that the guy really was real and alive, which of course, makes the whole thing make sense. Um. Duh.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Ha, dude, really this started off as being about Jesse so you know, it wasn't like I tried to think about Derek, he just crept in there. Plus you have a Derek icon! And a Jesse icon! I have neither. :(

Anyway, I'm really glad I'm making sense with what I'm saying. I definitely feel that for all Derek's cold, practical soldier facade, what gets him through everything is his gang, whoever they are at the time.

I guess in some ways, it's that a situation where he actually cares about the person getting killed forces him to face up to the fact that logically he should be horrified by his own morals, but I imagine the post-J-Day world is the kind of place where that kind of dissonance is necessary for survival. And so he gets through it by retreating, for that moment, into a place of pretending that he would never do such a thing.

I also wonder how much of him was angry about it because he thought Cameron murdered her? Like, he was approaching the situation from a "How dare the machines take another of us?" approach rather than a "this human needs to die to stop the future," approach?

I totally agree with you about the way Jesse's rage is constructive (which obviously is not the same as positive!) while Derek is just flat out angry. There's probably something ironic in there about how his tendency to fuel himself on nebulous anger rather than thinking things through meticulously makes him less dangerous, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on what.

Anyway, yay for agreeing in more words than is strictly necessary! Watch! I'm doing it too! :p

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Would you say that, along the way, they're mission stopped being about stopping J-Day, but about ensuring the success of the humans that survived it?

The audience knows they are more or less too late (HKs are already in existence), but there was also that episode where they were planning to destroy a major Skynet facility, but realized that doing so would greatly impair the rebels.

There was also the whole process of saving John's generals.

*sigh* This show really grasped the entire concept of "There future's not set; there's no fate but what you make for yourself." Which is what each of them were doing in their own ways, which, unfortunately, worked counterpoint to each other.

Too bad the Salvation movie missed all that. :(

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

Hmm, thinky thoughts.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

\o/ Thinky thoughts! :D

[ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com]

I don't necessarily think this is dissonant, but I sure as hell think that Derek would have shot Riley or put her in danger, or dragged her out into the middle of a firefight to use as emotional blackmail material if he needed to do it to complete his mission. If it had been to safeguard his brother's memory, or Jesse's future, or John's life.

The chief difference here is perspective. Calculation. I don't think Derek's morals are actually all that different to Jesse's I just think she's a strategist and he's not.

I agree!

I can't help but feel given what we know of Future John's characterisation, that Derek might have helped carry out plans just as sacrificial, just with the comfort of not really knowing the full ramifications of what he was doing. And with the comfort of believing John Connor must be right, as opposed to knowing Jesse Flores may very well not be.

Yes!

I think what he was trying to grapple with was how Jesse put herself in Wisher's shoes. Turned herself into someone he has to kill for the future, except now, who does he do it for? He only has her, and John who he needs so much from and trusts so little.

I think he had to try and take her out, had to convince himself that what she did was over some kind of line or he'd have to admit too much about himself, about John, about his fears.

I think he missed deliberately.

I think it was one of the few times I've found him interesting.

MY NEW PERSONAL CANON, 120 PERCENT.

John Connor is all any of them have, and he's also the reason they lose everything else. That kind of thing can drive a person crazy. What do you do if you stop loving the only thing you have left?

I don't think what Jesse did was any more insane than things Derek has done. I just think that what Jesse did, for Derek to accept it, would mean having to accept more about himself than he was able.

Derek needs to believe he does these things for a reason, that there are lines he won't cross, and that John Connor will save them all.

Derek needs to believe that dying for John Connor is a good enough reason to die.

My already major love for Jesse and her damaged, dangerous complexity has grown so much more after reading your post that it's even spilled over to Derek and how you've analyzed him as a mirror to Jesse. Not that I disliked him before, but my feelings about him are probably a lot like yours!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Wow, thanks for such a thoughtful comment. I'm really glad that you enjoyed my thoughts and they rang true with you, awesome-broken-Jesse fan that you are. :)

Derek and Vera

[tackdriver56.livejournal.com]

... his beloved gun.

There was considerable debate about whether Derek shot Jesse or not. I assert that he did not, and that he planned it that way.

As a competition sharpshooter (except for a crappy year due to "tennis elbow", I'd like to submit that I heard a striker fall on an empty chamber.

Derek loads his own guns, checks his own guns. He takes pride in this, and it's canon. I forget which ep.

If Derek dropped a striker on an empty chamber, he intended it that way. Probably didn't trust himself not to kill her, wanted to keep her safe. Was willing to die,(NEVER threaten ANYONE with a gun) rather than risk killing Jesse. That, and John Connor ordered him not to kill her. Something about his future depending on his following John's orders? (Sad that only lasted till Water-boy T at Weaver's).

Re: Derek and Vera

[ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com]

I LOVE THIS COMMENT. Thank you for making it!

Derek loads his own guns, checks his own guns. He takes pride in this, and it's canon. I forget which ep.

I remember that too! Though likewise I forget which episode.

[beatrice_otter]

Well-written and though provoking, particularly the end.

"Derek needs to believe that dying for John Connor is a good enough reason to die.

Jesse stopped believing that."