Girls Do Too Like Comics! I Just Proved It!

[beccatoria]

So, something awesome happened today that I am going to share with YOU, interwebs, because I love you.

A friend's been dating this awesome person for a while which is great, because when your friends date awesome people, you get to make new awesome friends. Now, this person is pretty quiet, likes to listen to everyone else more than to herself, but from a few comments, I knew that she wasn't really a big fan of comics, they made her kinda uncomfortable - I am pretty sure she classed them in the same category as lad's mags other stuff that's basically porn you can read on the train. Like I said, she's a quiet person, a few comments from her constituted a forceful opinion.

The thing that's interesting to me about this, though, is that her opinion wasn't formed in a vacuum. It's not like she had a media stereotype in her head. The guy she's dating - our friend - reads a lot of comics we lend him and doesn't read a huge amount of books beyond that. I haaaate gratuitous cheesecake and shitty depictions of women in mainstream cape books, and the books our mate was reading reflect that - but we were mostly lending him mainstream cape books, and it made me realise how numbed I am to how they look.

And damn, man, it just made me sad. And also nostalgic for those days when I didn't really read cape books, I read whatever trades were available at the library because I was a broke teenage girl and didn't even know where the local comic shop was. And honestly, it's rose-tinted spectacles of enormity if I say that none of that shit made me uncomfortable or made me wonder why I was reading it or didn't have shitty depictions of women - not to mention how confusing it is to read like ONE trade from near the end of Marvelman, because hell if I knew what order things were sposed to be in - but...that's when I fell in love with the medium, even though I spent the ten years after that wandering in and out.

And I wanted to do that for my new friend. So when it was her birthday, just recently, I thought to myself, fuck it. I am going to buy her a comic. I am going to buy her a comic that a) features a woman as a main character, b) is not drawn in an exploitative manner (and that will be defined broadly), and c) is self-contained.

So first I went and got depressed at how difficult this was. I basically had to write off superhero stuff entirely except for possibly Batwoman but I felt even that had too many ties to the wider DCU to be an easy entry point and besides, I wanted to show her that it's not all a genre where spandex is an entry requirement.

In the end I settled on the first volume of Fables. When I gave it to her I said, more or less, "this is a comic that will not make you feel like you need a shower." I honestly thought that would be an end to it - perhaps I'd get a polite "Oh, it was fun!" in a few weeks. I honestly suspected it might sit on her shelf gathering dust forever, and I would not have judged her for it.

Instead, I started getting texts about how much she liked it - how easy it was to read, how she wasn't expecting to be so engrossed she finished it in one sitting, how much fun it was and what should she read next.

Today she dragged her boyfriend shopping for new comics; I got a panicked text from him - they didn't have the next Fables! What did I suggest instead! - I missed out on answering because I was at my new job where I'm still nervous enough I don't let myself check my phone unless I'm on break - but apparently she bought the first volume of Madame Xanadu because she thought it looked cool.

And that's my story, interwebs. Just one more of the million examples of how it's not that chicks don't dig comics, they just don't dig exploitation.

Comments

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

PART TWO.

Re: DC - I ABSOLUTELY follow characters not titles too. It's the only sane way to do it, I think. I also rigorously adhere to personal canon, which is weirdly, I think, easier in DC than Marvel with their habit of declaring "CRISIS OF REALITY! NEW LEVEL!" and just keeping all the shit they arbitrarily like at that moment and ditching the rest, like infinite ultimate remakes. I read these things like myths and legends retold and retold; a million versions are true, so I will pick the one I like best (and, obviously, still RAGE at the ones I find offensively stupid or out of character because what, I am an internet geek!)

I didn't read the old BoP much but the new one is actually kind of fun. It's like...a spy thriller kind of thing. Honestly it's a little slowmoving for me, like it's deliberately playing with perspective and time and who knows what when and I'm like WAIT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON ALREADY but it's well-written, the art is nice and not icky and you know, it's still a comic about girls being friends. The line-up is Black Canary, Starling (new character, a friend of Dinah's), Katana (a character who has been problematically portrayed in the past, but it's nice the team isn't entirely white), POISON IVY (no rly) and Batgirl (though she only joins a few issues in, and obvs, she's not Oracle anymore so your tolerance may vary on that point). It's good stuff though and there's only 6 issues so far, so easy to catch up on. It has adorable moments like Starling driving a car through a church to grab Canary from out of a firefight, muttering, "hang on, sweetie," and the dude sat next to her going, "I AM!" and her going, "I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU."

Re: Emma Frost - dude I cannot understand any of Marvel, like, at all and even I know Emma Frost is the awesome boss queen of the universe. ♥ and also a really good example of a sexualised costume that works. For me, at least in part this is because it feels unique to her; it doesn't look like any other sexy superhero costume. It feels more like eveningwear; it's actually beautiful as well as revealing.

No lie, I went to see new Muppet movie today (if you're in North America - it came out months later in the UK for some reason), and we also got a free Avengers vs X-Men prequel/intro comic at the comic store, so we were talking (OBVIOUSLY) about how the next Muppet movie should be The X-Muppets and we were in total agreement that clearly Piggy was Emma Frost.

Final note: LOVE your icon. :D

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

OH, I absolutely read the comics as mythology/legends, too, being a Classical mythology geek that I am. I think I am the only person on LJ who actually has the interest "Superhero comics as modern mythology" listed in her interests, ALAS. So I am absolutely interested in that on a meta level, too. But I am also someone who largely invests in fiction based on characters, and the problem with DC's way of doing things is that...they now no longer have my beloved Helena Bertinelli in their canon, and I have had to rage-quit it. ;) I would have read for Barbara, but I am very iffy over the new state of affairs on her, as well. And this came at the worst possible time, too, when I was ready to go down my list of DC recs and actually get more into this universe.

For some reason, Marvel's heroic formula works better for me than DC's, and it's no coincidence that my only interest in DC has mainly been in Batverse, which actually follows Marvel's heroic formula. It's hard for me to say if Marvel or DC is harder to navigate because I, um, cheat. I have no problems with spoilers, so I tend to read the wiki entries on women I am interested in, then find their entry on Marvel/DC database and just read those issues, knowing the basic outline of the story already. It's sort of how I approach learning new systems of mythologies, too. ;)

Simone's entire run of "Birds of Prey," especially her first run, is fifteen shades of awesome. I am especially in love with how she develops the relationship between Barbara and Helena from something that's a weird rivalry/jealousy (as defined by writers before her) thing into one of the most complex/uneasy/deep friendships between women in any canon ever. I keep meaning to write meta about the epic-ness of Helena/Barbara, but reading stuff with them just makes me speechless with squee. I know, fandom is all about Barbara/Dinah, which is awesome, but Helena/Barbara is so unique that it just makes me want to draw hearts all over it.

and also a really good example of a sexualised costume that works.

YES, THAT! I mean, Emma Frost is the ONLY superheroine I love where her offensive costume actually WORKS with who she is. But she has claimed that it disarms people, making it easier for her to use her telepathy on them. She's entirely responsible for starting my thing for Machiavellian, morally ambiguous women in power positions. Um, if you ever feel like navigating through Marvel for the awesome of Emma Frost, I have a post up here with all the relevant titles. This is my standard, "START READING COMICS!" post.

Also, um, if you're looking for indie, not-entirely-superhero comics with awesome women, I can probably rec some things? WITH APPROPRIATE DISCLAIMERS, of course.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Dude, I totally need that as an interest on my LJ! I actually generally invest in characters primarily too. I'm trying to think of why DC's approach doesn't bother me in the same way even though it seems like it should and the best example I can come up with is Fringe - which is annoying since that show is in the doghouse with me right now... - but, if you've not seen it, it's a show that deals in parallel universes and alternate timelines and as a result there are about three different versions of most of the characters by now. I find that fascinating and I think it speaks to the same part of me that doesn't mind what DC does to its universe. Reboots on various scales occur constantly, every time a new writer is brought on board. Sometimes it's a deliberate clearing of the decks, even if there's no official "reboot"; sometimes the intention is to keep a tone and a style closer to what was. But it always happens. Rucka's Wonder Woman is different to Simone's is different to Straczynski's and I love the first two and detest the third. Miller's Batman is more similar to Snyder's than to Morrison's, but I detest Miller's, enjoy Snyder's, yet find Morrison's evokes nothing emotional in me other than a detached appreciation of the skill involved. The notion that "everything counts," (even when done by Grant Morrison writing Batman!) is always an illusion. After 70 years, there's literally no way Batman experienced every story - we always distill down to a manageable best-hits kind of history organised by recency, popularity, iconicness and authorial fiat, and that's always shifting.

The notion that metatextuality is always clever simply through its existence is a notion I abhor, but in this specific instance, I find their kind of...blunter, structural acknowledgement of the narrative processes that keep a 75+ year old, shared universe afloat, almost reassuring. In some ways it makes it feel more like a myth to me, because how many versions of the same stories get retold and retold?

Which isn't to say when they retell it I don't sometimes go, "yeesh, didn't I JUST HEAR THIS STORY LAST YEAR?!" or when they retell it in ways that are offensively influenced by modern oppressive societal models I don't get pissed at that, just...as a platonic ideal, it's not something that bothers me.

Helena Bertinelli is obviously a bit of a different situation given that she's been more radically shifted in the reboot. I'm pretty sure that what they're gunning for is to give her the Wayne!Huntress backstory while keeping the Bertinelli!Huntress character and motivation. Again, as a platonic ideal, I take no issue with the notion of amalgamating similar gods, as it were, but (1) if that were the only god in the pantheon I liked, I might rage quit my religion too (2) the everpresent question of why this happens more to girls than guys and (3) I have some concerns about whether Bertinelli's character could stand a shift in origin (http://beccatoria.livejournal.com/160085.html) and retain the things that made her a unique addition to the universe.

Regarding BoP, have you heard of the Graphic Audio No Man's Land (http://www.graphicaudio.net/p-900-batman-no-mans-land-1-of-2.aspx) audio drama? It's based on Greg Rucka's novelisation and is just awesome. Babs and Helena both have large roles, and although this is still at the point when Babs is very antagonistic towards Helena, both characters are fully realised, sympathetic, and will break your damn heart when getting angry with Batman. Also I think Helena gets the best voice actress in the production.

And thank you for the link to your post! I have a huge number of comics to read right now so I need to get through my backlist but I may well revisit your offer; I'm about to have a reduction in income, which is frustrating for my comic buying habit, but I have a very well-stocked local library (srsly, they had a giant stall at the local Comic Expo the other week, run by a Poison Ivy cosplayer, signing people up for library cards), so it might be a good time to start looking at stuff I wouldn't otherwise have thought to take a glance at!

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

I actually generally invest in characters primarily too.

I think my problem is my tendency to OTC. So while in theory, I invest in characters, for any given canon, I am likely fangirling just the one character hard enough that I have no energy left for the rest of it.

In some ways it makes it feel more like a myth to me, because how many versions of the same stories get retold and retold?
YES. I have no idea if you've read any of Roberto Calasso, but he has an epic quote for mythology that I think VERY MUCH applies to comics and why I love them, "Mythic figures live many lives, die many deaths, and in this they differ from the characters we find in novels, who can never go beyond the single gesture. But in each of these lives and deaths all the others are present, and we can hear their echo. Only when we become aware of a sudden consistency between incompatibles can we say we have crossed the threshold of myth." But, yes, all of that with the alternate realities, and I love seeing the echoes of the timelines crossing over. It's awesome and it does make the characters seem like greater than the sum of their parts. One of these days, I need to go down my list of "Wonder Woman" comics and read some of the runs that have been recommedned to me. :)

I am usually the one defending different versions (movies vs comics vs animated shows, etc) while others are hating them for being different, but I just hate losing the main universe that I had invested in, in this instance.

Helena Wayne, as being written now is pretty much the DC version of one of my favorite Marvel characters, Rachel Summers, where she has the Bertinelli personality that I love so much and the tragic backstory of being from a defunct timeline (I have no idea if that's where they're going with Wayne in this version?), so I am entirely sure I would love her? But I really loved the Bertinelli backstory (I think Rucka's "Cry for Blood" may be my favorite graphic novel ever, and the deconstruction of the Broken Bird trope therein just makes me SQUEE so hard.), and it makes me sad that that's no longer part of canon. Or, at least, not part of the timeline they're interested in telling me the story of anymore. And, well, basically all of the concerns you addressed in your post (which I read at the time you had posted it, but refrained from getting all of my BITTERNESS in the way of your excitement ;) are very valid. I imagine I will end up reading them, but I know myself enough to know that it will have to be after I have gotten over the loss of Helena Bertinelli.

Oh, and I had NO Idea that audio drama existed! THANK YOU for linking me to it. Maybe I can spend my weekend happily shipping Barbara and Helena. <3

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm fortunate in that while I often have OTCs, I do also often fall in love with the worlds or supporting characters at least enough to satisfy me, or shift my OTCness if necessary. Not always. But, for example, in BSG, I had Laura as my OTC and humans/technology as my...OTT (One True Theme?) and I think if either of those had survived unfuckedwith, I would have handled that show's implosion much better. But I understand what you're talking about.

Also that quote is just...fucking brilliant. So true and so powerful, and so succinctly captures the nature of a landscape that is as much about the power of inconsistencies and irreconcileable tales still being true as it is about facts.

I adore Wonder Woman, like, immensely, which I never did before sitting down and reading some complete runs. My favourite stuff is probably either Rucka's run or Simone's. I know you like both writers. I found Rucka's run was...slow to start, and quite honestly it took me some time to grasp her character because it felt (and I hate to say this because this is harsher and more unfair than I intend it to sound) more like a goodie-two-shoes slightly disney princess, zen-peace-and-love version of her character. Which it later became clear was intentional as Rucka, over the course of his five trades, starts with a deliberately distant view of her; how others see her, and then slowly, as he strips more and more away from her character and we get closer and closer to her, until she's left with nothing but blood on her hands and internal integrity. It's really pretty beautiful, but it's the third, fourth and fifth trades in his series that are the best, and best illustrate the deftness of his writing. There's so much in there about truth and perception as we follow Diana between two unwittingly televised fights, identical in many ways, but one makes her a hero and the other damns her. It's just great stuff.

I also particularly love Simone's first trade, The Circle.

I really need to read Cry for Blood at some point - I've been meaning to check out more Huntress stuff since listening to the audio drama. (Speaking of, I really hope you enjoy it if you listen, but I feel I should warn you that while Babs and Helena have large roles, they don't interact with each other very much at all, though when they do it's powerful stuff. Probably my favourite section in the whole thing is the first time Babs sees Helena in the Batgirl costume and the effect that has on her).

And absolutely no worries about not commenting - as I said, I'm in a different position to most. I completely understand where you're coming from; I would be throwing a similar fit of bitterness and potential separation before reintroduction if this were one of my OTCs. Hell, I'm still desperate for confirmation that the Secret Six are still around. :(

Anyways, Helena Bertinelli: boss king of the universe and fierce, fierce, fierce.