So again I apologise for this being late. It's a great, in-depth comment and I wanted to reply in kind, and then my week got super busy! But I was VERY glad to receive it! :D
First off, yeah, I completely agree that it's not one of those animes that's designed to infantilise the heroine and for the reasons you give. I mean, again, obviously I'd defer to someone with more knowledge, but that's my instinct. I should have clarified - that was like...an interesting investigative tangent that I spun down that eventually lead me towards the stuff about gender queerness vs asserting traditional gender identities through non-traditional means? But yeah. Like I said, I agree with you on that one!
I also can't find the place with the feminist comment and it was a while ago - I suspect it was actually a reference in some fan essay I read somewhere as I didn't read too many direct interviews, mostly articles on anime or Utena specifically (and yes! I did find ohtori.nu - it's great!) Your comment does make me wonder if it was mistranslated or interpreted in a way that wasn't strictly accurate. Although I did get the impression that he at least presented himself (sometimes, because yeah, I also picked up that he tends to give deliberately contradictory answers to questions about the meaning of his work) as someone who was aware of the gender issues surrounding the series and sought to focus on women within them. This interview, for instance - http://ohtori.nu/creators/a_aextra2.html - has him agreeing with Saito's more explicity support of feminism in Utena's gender roles?
However! To the movie!
Okay so first, no I hadn't read that theory and it's really fucking interesting. There's a lot about it I think works and it certainly presents a coherent and much less objectionable way for me to incorporate the movie into my understanding of the Utena canon.
But to answer your question about why I didn't like it, I'll explain my thinking at the time, and then go on to discuss the potential truth of the theory.
So the first thing I should explain is that even though I have very conflicting feelings about the reasons for it (and even though I ship it), I'm glad that Utena and Anthy's relationship within the bounds of the television series did not develop into something sexual. There's never a point until the very end of the series where the issue of consent wouldn't be well, an issue, either to the characters or to us as viewers (Anthy was manipulating Utena for a very long time, and Utena would have known that Anthy would agree to literally anything she told her to do). Mixed with the fact that there isn't a single sexual relationship in the series that's not about exploitation and power (which in itself, we could question, but...it is what it is?) and the fact that I think one of the huge themes of the series is that painful border between childhood and adulthood - not even adolescence really (that's definitely the movie's purview) but, well. Childhood. And it's this pretty...self-aware examination of the maelstrom of fucked up shit that can happen when kids start becoming aware of their own sexuality but aren't protected or given any guidance. So in the middle of that, I was kind of...relieved to see that Utena and Anthy, particularly when they were being abused by the same dude, had in each other a sort of...life raft free of that.
I definitely ship them after the show and firmly believe they were in love. But I firmly believe within the TV series' world, that the nonsexual nature of that love was a way of keeping it pure. Which is something I feel I should caveat because often that "sex = corrupting," stuff is...dangerous bullshit. But in a series that deals so hugely with sexual abuse, and with someone so young, I think it's...a reasonable point.
So going into the movie, obviously things are different. They're all older for a start and to our knowledge this Utena isn't abused. But all the thinking about the ways that Utena's non-romantic relationship with her "Bride" in the TV series was super important meant that I was inherently uncomfortable with the way it was played as a romance in the movie.
I felt like we had Utena at her "Student Council Saga" level of development - naively wanting to believe that what Anthy is saying to her is somehow genuine and not fake and not just because she "won" her because she is benevolent, except we never got the inversions that came later?
It essentially becomes a fairly straightforward "rescue the Princess" storyline, except with a girl as the Prince.
Movie!Anthy has set up a situation waiting for someone to come rescue her and...someone does. Why this time is different - why Utena manages to get through to her when no one else could - even whether Anthy is just going along with this because it's what Utena wants? Not examined.
Combined with comments about how this was a pure vision from Ikuhara and some of his other comments (though of course, salt must be added), I felt like he had taken out a lot of the more important deconstructionist storytelling in order to sexualise them and make it overtly romantic. It felt like the only deconstruction was with regards to the gender of the Prince, not with the fact that the entire concept functions along gendered lines. So instead we still get a rescued damsel, and even the fact she's rescued by a woman is co-opted because the romance feels so over-sexualised and designed for the male gaze. Again there may be cultural things I'm missing, but the sexual content in the movie felt exploitative to me in a way it didn't in the TV series.
However, let's talk about the sequel theory. It's actually really pretty solid, and if it's true it does address a lot of my problems with it. It explains why we can trust Anthy's intentions, it explains why Utena does too, on an instinctive level. It takes place when they are both older and emotionally at a place (post-TV series) where I believe they would be suited to starting a relationship. It explains why the issues they deal with are simplistic if measured against the original series, because they are different, although similar enough one could mistake them for a watered down version of each other.
That said, I still feel a little depressed thinking that for all Anthy's resolve at that final scene, she ends up trapped in another coffin, albeit one closer to the "surface", and that she still needs rescuing. I understand the notion of leaving together this time being positive, and I don't want to say that you never need assistance to achieve catharsis or transformation - that would be bullshit. But there is a level of regression, I think, to Anthy needing a Prince after all - to physically needing Utena as her vehicle of escape.
I think...I think I feel more complicatedly about that last part than I'm able to explain. I don't think - in light of this theory - it's as simple as "Oh, but she still needs Utena to rescue her again," because she is much more active (and one of the things I like about the theory is that it provides her with more conscious agency). But if they were going for that, I think it would have worked better if it were possible to view it as Anthy taking much more responsibility over "awakening" Utena, giving them more equity in their relationship, with Utena taking the "lead" in the TV series and Anthy doing so in the movie?
I suppose the last thing to say, though, is that even if it is true, I sadly think it's so obtuse it'll be lost on most viewers (it certainly was on me) and so even though it's one of the "hey theory about what this TV show/Movie was REALLY saying," posts that's MOST changed my opinion about something...basically ever (seriously, thanks for linking me to it), it's still...
Like, you still have to consider how the movie functions if you don't get that part of it. And without it, my opinion of it is still pretty low. :(
Finally, OMFG ANTHY'S JAPANESE VOICE ACTRESS GOD YES. You really CAN just tell and it makes the character work when it wouldn't with anyone less talented.
Wow, I think I'm done! Thanks again for a really interesting comment!
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Date: 2014-07-27 03:28 pm (UTC)First off, yeah, I completely agree that it's not one of those animes that's designed to infantilise the heroine and for the reasons you give. I mean, again, obviously I'd defer to someone with more knowledge, but that's my instinct. I should have clarified - that was like...an interesting investigative tangent that I spun down that eventually lead me towards the stuff about gender queerness vs asserting traditional gender identities through non-traditional means? But yeah. Like I said, I agree with you on that one!
I also can't find the place with the feminist comment and it was a while ago - I suspect it was actually a reference in some fan essay I read somewhere as I didn't read too many direct interviews, mostly articles on anime or Utena specifically (and yes! I did find ohtori.nu - it's great!) Your comment does make me wonder if it was mistranslated or interpreted in a way that wasn't strictly accurate. Although I did get the impression that he at least presented himself (sometimes, because yeah, I also picked up that he tends to give deliberately contradictory answers to questions about the meaning of his work) as someone who was aware of the gender issues surrounding the series and sought to focus on women within them. This interview, for instance - http://ohtori.nu/creators/a_aextra2.html - has him agreeing with Saito's more explicity support of feminism in Utena's gender roles?
However! To the movie!
Okay so first, no I hadn't read that theory and it's really fucking interesting. There's a lot about it I think works and it certainly presents a coherent and much less objectionable way for me to incorporate the movie into my understanding of the Utena canon.
But to answer your question about why I didn't like it, I'll explain my thinking at the time, and then go on to discuss the potential truth of the theory.
So the first thing I should explain is that even though I have very conflicting feelings about the reasons for it (and even though I ship it), I'm glad that Utena and Anthy's relationship within the bounds of the television series did not develop into something sexual. There's never a point until the very end of the series where the issue of consent wouldn't be well, an issue, either to the characters or to us as viewers (Anthy was manipulating Utena for a very long time, and Utena would have known that Anthy would agree to literally anything she told her to do). Mixed with the fact that there isn't a single sexual relationship in the series that's not about exploitation and power (which in itself, we could question, but...it is what it is?) and the fact that I think one of the huge themes of the series is that painful border between childhood and adulthood - not even adolescence really (that's definitely the movie's purview) but, well. Childhood. And it's this pretty...self-aware examination of the maelstrom of fucked up shit that can happen when kids start becoming aware of their own sexuality but aren't protected or given any guidance. So in the middle of that, I was kind of...relieved to see that Utena and Anthy, particularly when they were being abused by the same dude, had in each other a sort of...life raft free of that.
I definitely ship them after the show and firmly believe they were in love. But I firmly believe within the TV series' world, that the nonsexual nature of that love was a way of keeping it pure. Which is something I feel I should caveat because often that "sex = corrupting," stuff is...dangerous bullshit. But in a series that deals so hugely with sexual abuse, and with someone so young, I think it's...a reasonable point.
So going into the movie, obviously things are different. They're all older for a start and to our knowledge this Utena isn't abused. But all the thinking about the ways that Utena's non-romantic relationship with her "Bride" in the TV series was super important meant that I was inherently uncomfortable with the way it was played as a romance in the movie.
I felt like we had Utena at her "Student Council Saga" level of development - naively wanting to believe that what Anthy is saying to her is somehow genuine and not fake and not just because she "won" her because she is benevolent, except we never got the inversions that came later?
It essentially becomes a fairly straightforward "rescue the Princess" storyline, except with a girl as the Prince.
Movie!Anthy has set up a situation waiting for someone to come rescue her and...someone does. Why this time is different - why Utena manages to get through to her when no one else could - even whether Anthy is just going along with this because it's what Utena wants? Not examined.
Combined with comments about how this was a pure vision from Ikuhara and some of his other comments (though of course, salt must be added), I felt like he had taken out a lot of the more important deconstructionist storytelling in order to sexualise them and make it overtly romantic. It felt like the only deconstruction was with regards to the gender of the Prince, not with the fact that the entire concept functions along gendered lines. So instead we still get a rescued damsel, and even the fact she's rescued by a woman is co-opted because the romance feels so over-sexualised and designed for the male gaze. Again there may be cultural things I'm missing, but the sexual content in the movie felt exploitative to me in a way it didn't in the TV series.
However, let's talk about the sequel theory. It's actually really pretty solid, and if it's true it does address a lot of my problems with it. It explains why we can trust Anthy's intentions, it explains why Utena does too, on an instinctive level. It takes place when they are both older and emotionally at a place (post-TV series) where I believe they would be suited to starting a relationship. It explains why the issues they deal with are simplistic if measured against the original series, because they are different, although similar enough one could mistake them for a watered down version of each other.
That said, I still feel a little depressed thinking that for all Anthy's resolve at that final scene, she ends up trapped in another coffin, albeit one closer to the "surface", and that she still needs rescuing. I understand the notion of leaving together this time being positive, and I don't want to say that you never need assistance to achieve catharsis or transformation - that would be bullshit. But there is a level of regression, I think, to Anthy needing a Prince after all - to physically needing Utena as her vehicle of escape.
I think...I think I feel more complicatedly about that last part than I'm able to explain. I don't think - in light of this theory - it's as simple as "Oh, but she still needs Utena to rescue her again," because she is much more active (and one of the things I like about the theory is that it provides her with more conscious agency). But if they were going for that, I think it would have worked better if it were possible to view it as Anthy taking much more responsibility over "awakening" Utena, giving them more equity in their relationship, with Utena taking the "lead" in the TV series and Anthy doing so in the movie?
I suppose the last thing to say, though, is that even if it is true, I sadly think it's so obtuse it'll be lost on most viewers (it certainly was on me) and so even though it's one of the "hey theory about what this TV show/Movie was REALLY saying," posts that's MOST changed my opinion about something...basically ever (seriously, thanks for linking me to it), it's still...
Like, you still have to consider how the movie functions if you don't get that part of it. And without it, my opinion of it is still pretty low. :(
Finally, OMFG ANTHY'S JAPANESE VOICE ACTRESS GOD YES. You really CAN just tell and it makes the character work when it wouldn't with anyone less talented.
Wow, I think I'm done! Thanks again for a really interesting comment!