BANNED for fighting the MAN! (Or, LJ vs Forums)

[beccatoria]

Okay, so that's a little melodramatic, and also I was smacked down by the man for fighting a man, but hey, at least this time I got banned for saying something worthwhile, not through my own idiocy like last time.

Still...I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with a policy where people are told to drop a subject that's getting prickly, but people are never told, no it's not all right to equate entire nations of people with objective evil.

So I guess...yeah. I'm at peace with what I did; ban's temporary and I got caught up, I think, more in a "we gotta knock down EVERYONE who was involved, or it'll seem like favouritism," fever, than anyone thinking I was out of line in terms of what I was actually saying.

I appreciate the fact that you gotta have order when you run a place that big.

But...but it's got me thinking about how we handle stuff. How we (and I include me) too often avoid confrontations or fights on important issues because passion is perceived as flaming. If you know someone's a bigot; better just not to engage with him on that level. Better to leave it. To shut down an inappropriate conversation but not engage in a new conversation about why it was inappropriate.

I think that LJ has a little less of this problem. Because it's made of personal spaces, an infinite connecting network of chosen communities. It's easier to express ourselves sometimes because of that. A forum is a different animal, where often, you have to associate with people who do not make a space safe; where you choose the topic, but your choice of the community is far more limited and often under the direct moderation of someone else; someone you may not even know.

I have no answers except my observation that we shut down difficult conversations rather than having them. Because when real, total assholes show up and refuse to listen, with faux-logic and sarcasm and pretend rebuttals, we're too tired to fight them. To stand up and say, I don't care how many times you twist my words, or pretend I'm the one who's oppressing you, you're an ass and what you're saying is wrong.

Sometimes fighting someone on a point you know you won't win only serves to give them further openings and publicity. In those instances I understand why people want to drop it rather than carry on talking. But also...that solution fails to address the need to stand up and say, "Oy, you, no."?

I'm not really upset about what happened to me; I'm not...I'm not trying to open up a can of worms here because I don't think there are any easy answers. But certainly, today, the differences in the way we community build on the internet and the differences in the ways we handle asses in our communities, was obvious to me in a way it isn't always. And I think it told me something about the role authority assumes in mediating acceptability, and also how we create authority and mediate acceptability in more anarchic set-ups.

Anyway. Just made me think.

Comments

Wow, banned for the second time!

[hmpf.livejournal.com]

You're a regular forum troll, aren't you? :D

>I think that LJ has a little less of this problem.

Or maybe it just has it in a different way. Because here, if we're afraid of having a certain conversation, we just take it somewhere else. We don't outright avoid having it, but we try to have it in a 'safe space', in a space where people are more likely to agree with us etc. - see the creation of jumping_off as a place for negative opinions about LoM 2.08, in an effort to avoid offending people on the main comms. In a way, that is good - it allows us to still talk about the things that we feel passionately about, without having to fear causing other people hurt. But at the same time, it means that dissenting voices, if passionate enough, tend to splinter off into small, separate groups, and the fandom at large gets deprived of those voices. To some degree.

We're currently having a 2.08 discussion on the *main* LoM comm for the first time in, oh, many months, I think. It's interesting...

Generally speaking, I'd really love it if people could take disagreement a bit better. I think passionate disagreement is often seen as 'flaming' far too easily.

Re: Wow, banned for the second time!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Or maybe it just has it in a different way. Because here, if we're afraid of having a certain conversation, we just take it somewhere else. We don't outright avoid having it, but we try to have it in a 'safe space', in a space where people are more likely to agree with us etc.

Yes! That's exactly what I mean! But I think you're right to note that it's not really less of a problem, it's just a different one. Because it means that there is conversation, but like you say, it still doesn't address the issue of how to have these conversations in public, loudly, even when people are busy telling you that you're wrong and aren't entitled to your opinion, or that your issue doesn't exist.

We're currently having a 2.08 discussion on the *main* LoM comm for the first time in, oh, many months, I think. It's interesting...

I'm glad to hear that - I hope that it ends up less...frought than it was right after the show aired. I certainly know what it's like to be confronted with the notion that involvement and emotional investment is only acceptable as long as it's aimed towards enthusiasm, and that feeling...let down, or even betrayed, by a story is somehow unacceptable. I suppose it's an emotional issue we grapple with, as fans, because it necessarily puts us as odds with wider (or at least accepted) societal norms?

Generally speaking, I'd really love it if people could take disagreement a bit better. I think passionate disagreement is often seen as 'flaming' far too easily.

Absolutely. And it's also too easy to dismiss someone who feels passionately about an issue as hysterical. Goshdarnit!

[rjsteamboat76.livejournal.com]

it's a rarity for me, but every now and then i will just shut up so i don't waste my time and energy and passion on someone who refuses to open their mind a little. =)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'd like to believe it's a rarity for me, too. But more and more I feel tired at the prospect. Or at least, I do on forums. Or at least, I feel that I do today. Or something...

Certainly I understand what you're saying. It can be exhausting to expend energy on someone who discards it as easily as trash.

*oooooh, angsty sigh!* :p

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I'm having flashbacks reading this. I think you know I was banned from a 'Buffy' board? Technically, I had my membership revoked. Whatever. If you don't know about the situation, I can go into more detail in a follow up comment, but I just wanted to chime in and say I know how you feel. I have a feeling whatever was brought up that got you banned was something more serious than what triggered my banishment, but I just got sick to death of *one* poster taking her hatred for a show, it's star, and creator out on fellow posters. She was right and you were a complete idiot if you didn't agree with her. I tried taking the issue of the constant negativity and bashing up on the board, but when I realized since the Admin was the main offenders great defender I took it to my LJ. And some weasily, backstabbing board member who had friended me (HA!) went running to the Admin to tell her what I had said. Next thing I know, I was having ALL my posts deleted from the board. The solution was to pretend I never existed there. At least I got the last laugh. After I was banned (as well as some friends) posting fell way off. The person who started it all realized after meeting James Marsters he wasn't really Spike and quite the fandom. And a year or so later the board was closed. But I'm still here! ;-)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, my situation seems to be far less bleak than yours. The forum in question (theforce.net's lit forum, if you were interested!) is generally well modded, and I also get on well with most of the mods on a personal level. But I've had experiences in the past where I chose to leave forums because I had problems with moderator attitude (the savefarscape.com forums for one).

What actually happened in this instance was one guy - who's a massive bigot, homophobe and sexist ass - did what he always does. Baiting in the form of an innocuous comment he knows will rile someone, thereby making it look like they dragged the thread off-topic. In this instance he baited a muslim poster by trying to argue the semantics of crusade vs jihad in a very islamophobic way. One mod warned not to get off topic. A few people kept chatting. I considered not saying anything, but I was uncomfortable that the response was "drop it it's not on topic" not, "drop it because you're out of line", so I commented and then another mod showed up, and since we'd failed to listen to the first mod's request, banned everyone who was involved for at least a day.

I think the mod was harsh because the guy was so out of line, and the mod was trying to send a message that it wouldn't be tolerated. But I'm still, I suppose, a little hacked off that with this one guy in particular, on this forum, our method of dealing with him is to shut down his conversation and people engaging with him, and not simultaneously state that his attitude is unacceptable. In this instance, I think the notion that it's just as much the fault of the other posters who engage with him is inaccurate since, despite everything, he's a) still considered a non-troll and even for some, well-liked, member of the forum, and b) he pretty much never gets told he's out of line. He gets banned (I think/presume) for not dropping stuff occasionally, but he doesn't half as often get told he's being a prick. Though I could be wrong, since I do my best to avoid him, I may just not see it so often.

Anyway...that's what happened to me.

I really would be interested in hearing what happened with you, though. It sounds like it was...really awful. Certainly an interesting comment on the sorts of communities that build up. There's nothing worse than a mod who's a bully. But as you said - they're gone; you're still here.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Well good for you for standing up for what you believe in and voicing your opinion. I obviously don't know all the details, but the Net can really piss me off with the way people take liberties one what they say and how they say it and the fact that some people don't say anything at all when they ought to.

[(Anonymous)]

As a lurker at theforce.net forums I know who you are talking about.

What bothers me is the bigot won't go to the senate where folks could rightly tear his statements to shreds and expose the faulty logic. Instead he just makes snide comments and presents false information (esp about Gay people Narth is one of this favorite sources) and then the conversation gets closed before anyone can really call him on it.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Oh, Hi! :) And welcome! And thanks for the words of support.

I imagine he ends up getting banned a lot more than we realise because, well, how would we know? I guess I just wish the public shutting down of the threads were more, "What you're saying is out of line, drop it," not "what you're saying is off-topic, drop it," you know?

But hey, if wishes were horses and all that stuff. Plus...mostly I think that forum's well moderated for such a large place. I don't...I don't want to seem unsympathetic about that. But yeah. The guy's a jerk.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. You mentioned you lurked so I might not know you, but you have a screenname on tf.n?

actually logged in this time.

[obsidianwolf.livejournal.com]

I've been more active lately I usually post as DarkScythe and I've been lurking there on and of since about 01.

Re: actually logged in this time.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Oh hi! Awesome, yes I remember your screename!

I'll see you around the boards sometime. :)