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beccatoriaOkay, so that's a little melodramatic, and also I was smacked down by the man for fighting a man, but hey, at least this time I got banned for saying something worthwhile, not through my own idiocy like last time.
Still...I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with a policy where people are told to drop a subject that's getting prickly, but people are never told, no it's not all right to equate entire nations of people with objective evil.
So I guess...yeah. I'm at peace with what I did; ban's temporary and I got caught up, I think, more in a "we gotta knock down EVERYONE who was involved, or it'll seem like favouritism," fever, than anyone thinking I was out of line in terms of what I was actually saying.
I appreciate the fact that you gotta have order when you run a place that big.
But...but it's got me thinking about how we handle stuff. How we (and I include me) too often avoid confrontations or fights on important issues because passion is perceived as flaming. If you know someone's a bigot; better just not to engage with him on that level. Better to leave it. To shut down an inappropriate conversation but not engage in a new conversation about why it was inappropriate.
I think that LJ has a little less of this problem. Because it's made of personal spaces, an infinite connecting network of chosen communities. It's easier to express ourselves sometimes because of that. A forum is a different animal, where often, you have to associate with people who do not make a space safe; where you choose the topic, but your choice of the community is far more limited and often under the direct moderation of someone else; someone you may not even know.
I have no answers except my observation that we shut down difficult conversations rather than having them. Because when real, total assholes show up and refuse to listen, with faux-logic and sarcasm and pretend rebuttals, we're too tired to fight them. To stand up and say, I don't care how many times you twist my words, or pretend I'm the one who's oppressing you, you're an ass and what you're saying is wrong.
Sometimes fighting someone on a point you know you won't win only serves to give them further openings and publicity. In those instances I understand why people want to drop it rather than carry on talking. But also...that solution fails to address the need to stand up and say, "Oy, you, no."?
I'm not really upset about what happened to me; I'm not...I'm not trying to open up a can of worms here because I don't think there are any easy answers. But certainly, today, the differences in the way we community build on the internet and the differences in the ways we handle asses in our communities, was obvious to me in a way it isn't always. And I think it told me something about the role authority assumes in mediating acceptability, and also how we create authority and mediate acceptability in more anarchic set-ups.
Anyway. Just made me think.
Still...I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with a policy where people are told to drop a subject that's getting prickly, but people are never told, no it's not all right to equate entire nations of people with objective evil.
So I guess...yeah. I'm at peace with what I did; ban's temporary and I got caught up, I think, more in a "we gotta knock down EVERYONE who was involved, or it'll seem like favouritism," fever, than anyone thinking I was out of line in terms of what I was actually saying.
I appreciate the fact that you gotta have order when you run a place that big.
But...but it's got me thinking about how we handle stuff. How we (and I include me) too often avoid confrontations or fights on important issues because passion is perceived as flaming. If you know someone's a bigot; better just not to engage with him on that level. Better to leave it. To shut down an inappropriate conversation but not engage in a new conversation about why it was inappropriate.
I think that LJ has a little less of this problem. Because it's made of personal spaces, an infinite connecting network of chosen communities. It's easier to express ourselves sometimes because of that. A forum is a different animal, where often, you have to associate with people who do not make a space safe; where you choose the topic, but your choice of the community is far more limited and often under the direct moderation of someone else; someone you may not even know.
I have no answers except my observation that we shut down difficult conversations rather than having them. Because when real, total assholes show up and refuse to listen, with faux-logic and sarcasm and pretend rebuttals, we're too tired to fight them. To stand up and say, I don't care how many times you twist my words, or pretend I'm the one who's oppressing you, you're an ass and what you're saying is wrong.
Sometimes fighting someone on a point you know you won't win only serves to give them further openings and publicity. In those instances I understand why people want to drop it rather than carry on talking. But also...that solution fails to address the need to stand up and say, "Oy, you, no."?
I'm not really upset about what happened to me; I'm not...I'm not trying to open up a can of worms here because I don't think there are any easy answers. But certainly, today, the differences in the way we community build on the internet and the differences in the ways we handle asses in our communities, was obvious to me in a way it isn't always. And I think it told me something about the role authority assumes in mediating acceptability, and also how we create authority and mediate acceptability in more anarchic set-ups.
Anyway. Just made me think.
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no subject
Date: 2008-02-16 03:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-16 04:32 pm (UTC)What actually happened in this instance was one guy - who's a massive bigot, homophobe and sexist ass - did what he always does. Baiting in the form of an innocuous comment he knows will rile someone, thereby making it look like they dragged the thread off-topic. In this instance he baited a muslim poster by trying to argue the semantics of crusade vs jihad in a very islamophobic way. One mod warned not to get off topic. A few people kept chatting. I considered not saying anything, but I was uncomfortable that the response was "drop it it's not on topic" not, "drop it because you're out of line", so I commented and then another mod showed up, and since we'd failed to listen to the first mod's request, banned everyone who was involved for at least a day.
I think the mod was harsh because the guy was so out of line, and the mod was trying to send a message that it wouldn't be tolerated. But I'm still, I suppose, a little hacked off that with this one guy in particular, on this forum, our method of dealing with him is to shut down his conversation and people engaging with him, and not simultaneously state that his attitude is unacceptable. In this instance, I think the notion that it's just as much the fault of the other posters who engage with him is inaccurate since, despite everything, he's a) still considered a non-troll and even for some, well-liked, member of the forum, and b) he pretty much never gets told he's out of line. He gets banned (I think/presume) for not dropping stuff occasionally, but he doesn't half as often get told he's being a prick. Though I could be wrong, since I do my best to avoid him, I may just not see it so often.
Anyway...that's what happened to me.
I really would be interested in hearing what happened with you, though. It sounds like it was...really awful. Certainly an interesting comment on the sorts of communities that build up. There's nothing worse than a mod who's a bully. But as you said - they're gone; you're still here.