BSG: Sine Qua Non (With Slightly More Coherence)

[beccatoria]

So. Lots happened this week, and I went and tried to do my usual thing of rambling on vaguely related points, but instead I wrote a list. At points it is a very jumbled and thinky list. After the list are my thoughts on the Final Five and what exactly they are.


- Adama killed democracy; a humorous turnabout considering this situation would never occured had he not tried to save it last time.

- Adama & Tigh demonstrate that if you beat on each other badly enough, you forget why you were mad.

- Caprica is in another shitty relationship, but this time it's physically and mentally abusive not just neglectfully and selfishly so. Though I suppose at least this time both participants hallucinate their other Great Loves...

- What fascinates me most about the Tigh/Caprica scene is the way she speaks to him. Calls him "Saul," and asks if he loves her. It's tragic, because I'm inclined to believe that Tigh is always as manically ambivalent around her as he is now. Her desperate search for love - what defines and dooms Caprica...sometimes all Sixes, is, well, tragic and painful. And why she remains in such an awful relationship; why she always does and always has. Baltar - thrice in three different bodies with two different minds, Caine, Tigh, a threesome with D'Anna and Baltar she never wanted. Have we ever seen a Six loved?

- Tigh may have stopped drinking so he can concentrate on going INSANE, but that's okay, because Adama is picking up the slack. I hope he took his liquor with him on that Raptor cus otherwise I fear the shaking may set in.

- No episode of BSG should ever be utterly without Laura Roslin (although, given my suspicion that she will die before the final episode - no spoilers, just a hunch - I'd better get used to it).

- Romo Lampkin makes no sense, though I suppose I can forgive him since he raised interesting questions. Like how a good size of the fleet probably survived because they put themselves first. But that hallucinatory cat thing took a while to twig and his behaviour was still utterly confusing. So I will just chalk it up as INSANITY.

- Joke: Romo Lampkin's cat has no nose. How does it smell? Awful, you'd think, but APPARENTLY NOT SINCE HE'S BEEN CARRYING ITS DECOMPOSING CORPSE AROUND IN A SUITCASE FOR MONTHS AND NO ONE NOTICED.

- You know, it's a good thing that Adama wasn't angry because he needed more than loyalty from Tigh, he needed competence and judgment. Because if that were the case, one might actually worry about putting him in charge of a Battlestar and the remnants of humanity. O U NOCKED UP UR CYLON GURLFRIEND? Y/Y? U CAN HAS PROMOSHUN NAO! As I noted in my previous entry, this is even better than the time he welcomed him back to active duty despite having, hours ago, relieved him because he was hearing cylon music in the walls of the ship. But I forgot - they had a fistfight, so everything Adama said before that is magically forgotten.

- LELAND. That was amusing. The name isn't inherently crappy, although it is a little dorky. It's just that 1) it reminds me Leland Chee which makes me think of the current Mess Afflicting Star Wars Continuity - GRR, and 2) I really liked Lee. It was simple. It fit. I'm kind of sad his real name is now Leland. Or Leeland. I guess we don't know how they spelled it.

- It was kind of obvious from the moment Lee started looking for new people to be the President that the job was his. That does not make it less cool. I wonder what will happen when Laura returns?

- A/R? Blergh. Boring. HOWEVER, it didn't piss me off this episode because I've never really had a problem with Adama having fallen in love with her. I just always got the feeling that after, say, sometime in season one, her attitude towards him was more than slightly calculated. It will be easier and good for the Fleet if I have a good relationship with this man. Hmm...he has a crush on me? Well, that's useful. And I guess he's not bad-looking... (Well, okay, in my L/L or really, L/ANYONE EXCEPT ADAMA SNR head, she doesn't think he's good-looking, but I'm trying to be respectful of canon here!)

- Kara seems to be the CAG again. I guess they've decided to just pretend to forget that whole "back from the dead" thing. Maybe they had a fist-fight about it?

- I still want to know what happened to Anders for shooting Gaeta in the leg, if anything...

- I feel I should say something about how ludicrous Adama's actions were in risking the Fleet for Laura, and how realising that, after-the-fact, and being all stoic and romantic about it, does not actually make his decision to likely go commit suicide with a book and one of a dwindling supply of irreplaceable Raptors, while leaving the entire Fleet under the command of someone he knows is a security risk, heroic. But I lack the energy. And oddly, while this moved slightly more towards me feeling the show was saying, "Look at how HEROIC Adama is," rather than the refreshing feeling I've had this season that it was saying, "Look how ALONE AND LONELY AND UNABLE TO COPE WITH CHANGE Adama is,", it wasn't like...all guns blazing Adama-Awesomeness. Cus Tigh called him out on it and such and he was shown to be wrong. So I will just sit here thinking that he went and did something very silly (even though we all know it'll work out because he's the lead actor), and just assume that, like other moments in the series, it's all about how he's a man who survived too long and doesn't understand how to live in this world.

ETA!

- One day I am going to make a music video all about Saul Tigh's Left Eye. I have great respect for Michael Hogan as an actor, but every since he lost his other eye, every time they want to show EMOTION, they zoom in on Saul Tigh's Left Eye going wide and wiggling about. They shouldn't be nominating Michael Hogan, they should be nominating Michael Hogan's Left Eye since clearly that's where they think his acting talent lies... o.O

- I always forget how short Adama is... I mean, I know he's probably still taller than me, but he has such gravitas and due to the way they shoot the show it's easy to forget he really isn't that tall. We so often see him with either Lee who is also short of Laura who is...also short. In this episode he has to get up in the grill of both Athena and Tigh and...he's barely as tall as she is and he's shorter than Tigh and it's...amusing in my head.

- Tigh, proving that he can follow Bill's instructions as the new Military Leader of Humanity, gives Athena back her daughter. Which is sweet and all, but I do have to wonder why he decided the best way to reunite them was to put a toddler in a prison cell with no amenities rather than putting Sharon under House Arrest...

- And mostly importantly: NOOOO! NOT NATALIE YOU BASTARDS! NOOOOOOO! I really can't believe I originally forgot to put that on my list. Her death scene was really quite beautiful and heartbreaking. I suppose, of all the Sixes, she wanted love from the final five, from the people she led, rather than from a single person. But again, she was denied. The moment where Cottle held her hand, and she saw trees, was...gorgeous. But dammit, I loved her, and now she's dead.


And now - thoughts on the Final Five!

The Final Five are practically cyborgs, not machines. They can age, we now know they can reproduce (it seems) with Cylons the way humans can. We start having to ask, in what ways are they not like humans? Well, we saw Anders eye-flash thing. Tory has demonstrated superhuman strength. They all heard the music. I'd contend that basically, they're clones with extremely sophisticated machine-integration that makes them stronger, perhaps smarter, allows for machine-human interfacing (I'm still not sure how that works: sticking wires in your arm, but basically it's magical science and I am not going to question it more than the literal data streams we see on the Basestars), and replecates what I, in my head, refer to as the "overclocked brain" thing. The way Leoben sees the patterns preceding every moment. The same quasi-mystical functioning that allows such sophisticated hallucinations (projections) and even programming.

Essentially they are organic machines. Same as us, but...built with more care and directed intelligence than evolution can provide. An evolutionary step that includes the fact that machines are now part of our environment. Essentially they seem identical to the Significant Seven except that they are more human.

My theory has been for a while now - since someone very smart noted the prominent resistance roles they all had on New Caprica - that the Five are on humanity's side, and are actually cylon from the last time all this happened - the time of Pythia. But now, knowing that the Significant Seven half know about them but being programmed not to think about them? I'm wondering if the Final Five assisted in the creation of the Significant Seven, raising their numbers to that magical twelve again but removing themselves from their creations' consciousnesses and disappearing among the humans. It makes me wonder if what the Final Five are really doing is ensuring that the cycle continues. Making sure the Cylon are created, and making sure the humans survive? Ooooh, speculation. Basically I have no idea, and I'm just trying to make it so my head doesn't explode. For instance, how the aging thing works, I have no idea. Did they start as babies? Can they reset their own aging? Did they box themselves at the end of the Pythian-era to be unboxed and grow up at the start of the next great war? ARGH!

Yeah. This week was weird.

Comments

Part the First

[asta77.livejournal.com]

This may be your snarkiest BSG post ever! ;-)

Adama & Tigh demonstrate that if you beat on each other badly enough, you forget why you were mad.

As happy as I was to see Tigh knock Bill on his ass, the way the scene ended left me with very mixed feelings. On the one hand, it was typical Bill Adama. Let’s pretend nothing happen! Let’s pretend everything is fine when we know it’s fraked up! Who needs emotional growth! Have I mentioned before how shocked I am that Lee is as emotionally healthy as he is? But, on the other hand, the shift from beating the crap out of each other to, ‘Hey, my ships all busted up again!’ was abrupt.

Her desperate search for love - what defines and dooms Caprica...sometimes all Sixes, is, well, tragic and painful. And why she remains in such an awful relationship; why she always does and always has. Baltar - thrice in three different bodies with two different minds, Caine, Tigh, a threesome with D'Anna and Baltar she never wanted. Have we ever seen a Six loved?

No, we haven’t. Part of me thinks we shouldn’t feel so sad for a Cylon, especially one who was responsible for the near destruction of humanity. But, damn, she’s put up with a hell of a lot of shit from the people (human and Cylon) in her life(s). And I’m thinking it’s pretty fraked up that Ron is failing to see that he’s put this woman in one abusive relationship after another. Wanna bet that we’ll now get a happy and fulfilled Caprica simply because she’s pregnant? Sigh.

Tigh may have stopped drinking so he can concentrate on going INSANE, but that's okay, because Adama is picking up the slack.

Of all of Adama’s ill conceived plans, this one may take the prize. He leaves the fleet in the hands of an alcoholic, prisoner fraking, music coming from the walls hearing, already caused the fleet to divide once XO while he sets himself adrift hoping for his wannabe, could be dead, girlfriend to return to a rendezvous point we’re hearing about for the first time.

But that hallucinatory cat thing took a while to twig and his behaviour was still utterly confusing.

I really thought I had missed something not picking up on the dead cat thing until Lee made his Ewww! Face, but every single person on my Flist failed to figure it out too which proves it was really bad writing.

I really liked Lee. It was simple. It fit. I'm kind of sad his real name is now Leland. Or Leeland. I guess we don't know how they spelled it.

I thought I would be sad about the name thing, but I’m not. He is Lee, he’s not Leland. My guess is they were honoring some family member (maybe his other grandfather?) and never actually used the name. My dad’s name was Edward. He always went by Ted. I have a friend who has gone by TC since she was a toddler. TC is neither a shortened version of her first name nor is it her first and middle initial. You know how short my name is? People still shorten it! So, yeah, Leland is no big deal to me.

HOWEVER, it didn't piss me off this episode because I've never really had a problem with Adama having fallen in love with her.

My dream scenario is Adama ‘rescues’ Laura and her immediate response is, “If you’re here, who is commanding the fleet and protecting the people?” And then her getting really pissed that he chucked them to find her. I fear Ron thinks this is all very romantic, but if Laura were to be true to herself she’d call Adama on betraying everything she believes in and has sacrificed for.

Re: Part the First

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

This may be your snarkiest BSG post ever! ;-)

I KNOW! I'm...growing. As an LJer. :p Though, I didn't actually dislike this episode or anything. I just, apparently it brought the snark...

As happy as I was to see Tigh knock Bill on his ass, the way the scene ended left me with very mixed feelings.

Yeah, I basically feel the same as you. Bill totally needed a smack in the mouth. He also needs to stop treating smacks in the mouth as the solution rather than a wake-up-call that you need to look for a solution.

And as you say, the shift was...abrupt.

Part of me thinks we shouldn’t feel so sad for a Cylon, especially one who was responsible for the near destruction of humanity.

That's not an issue that bothers me so much. I know that you're very much pro-not-forgetting-what-the-cylons-did, and so am I, but I think more in terms of the Colonials not forgetting what the cylon did (which is why the peace movement in season 2 pissed me off). But one of the things I've loved since the start of the series has been how interesting the cylon are, and how sympathetic. I think it crystalised for me in Flesh and Bone when I was fascinated by - in love with - Leoben, and found his fate deeply moving, but at the same time, completely on Kara's side with her outburst of deep, deep rage.

I'm not sure how much, if any, we disagree. I guess what I'm saying is, the ability to find an individual cylon deeply sympathetic and compelling is one of the things I love best about this show. And Caprica Six is...awesome. Though I wish they'd bite the bullet and change her hair colour, or at least put it in a ponytail or something because that wig is ugly.

And I’m thinking it’s pretty fraked up that Ron is failing to see that he’s put this woman in one abusive relationship after another. Wanna bet that we’ll now get a happy and fulfilled Caprica simply because she’s pregnant? Sigh.

I have fears that the writers don't entirely see what they're doing to her, no. However, I feel weirdly hopeful that this won't end up quite so two dimensional. Something about the way Caprica asks Saul if he loves her, he chokes her and maybe it's just Tricia Helfer's acting, but the way she sits there with her hand against her throat, trapped, made me think, okay, they know this is deeply, deeply frakked up.

I think that given the religious framework of the show, she'll have to be awed and happy on some level that she's pregnant, but on the other hand, she's not stupid and she's in a very bad situation. So...I'm hoping for some actual interesting treatment here rather than fixing an abusive relationship with an oops!baby...

Of all of Adama’s ill conceived plans, this one may take the prize.

I really have nothing to add to your wonderful summation except: AHAHAHAHAAAHAHAAA! Oh, Adama, I love you sometimes. *wipes tear from cheek*

I really thought I had missed something not picking up on the dead cat thing until Lee made his Ewww! Face, but every single person on my Flist failed to figure it out too

Yeah. I think that Lee making his Eww!face was supposed to be the reveal moment, which is fine. But it wasn't clean. I didn't instantly go, OH! HALLUCINATION CAT! I went, what? Did he just use that gun to kill his cat? It's been dead for months? How does that work, it was there before... *head scratching irritated pause* OOOOOOH. Oh. Well that's dumb.

You know how short my name is? People still shorten it! So, yeah, Leland is no big deal to me.

Yeah, it's not a big deal to me either. My name is Rebecca, but I've been either Becky or Becka or Bec since I was an infant. Nearly no one ever uses my whole name. Hey, even in official capacities - our last prime minister was Tony Blair and he never used Anthony. It's less that I mind it in terms of believability, more that I just liked the idea that he really had that short official name. It's nothing I can actually justify, just me going aawwww...shame.

My dream scenario is Adama ‘rescues’ Laura and her immediate response is, “If you’re here, who is commanding the fleet and protecting the people?”

*begs the Lords of Kobol to make it so*

*BEGS*

Re: Part the First

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Bill totally needed a smack in the mouth. He also needs to stop treating smacks in the mouth as the solution rather than a wake-up-call that you need to look for a solution.

Yet again, we get the Ron Moore Psychology 101. Let's beat each other up! That will clear the air and make things better! Accept you've just managed to mess up your face and bury the pain to never be dealt with again. Sigh.

And Caprica Six is...awesome. Though I wish they'd bite the bullet and change her hair colour, or at least put it in a ponytail or something because that wig is ugly.

Hee! I don't get Cylon hair. Does it not grow? I mean, she's been locked up for months. Why aren't her roots showing? They can bring her peroxide, but not a change a clothes? The girl needs a sweater! And, as I've asked before, why is it that only the Sixes have different hair colors and styles? I need answers!

Something about the way Caprica asks Saul if he loves her, he chokes her and maybe it's just Tricia Helfer's acting, but the way she sits there with her hand against her throat, trapped, made me think, okay, they know this is deeply, deeply frakked up.

admireddisorder wondered about Caprica asking Tigh if he loved her. I think there was a concern that Caprica had fallen in love with Tigh. I don't believe so. The Cylons, particularly the Sixes, felt that love was needed to conceive a child. Caprica, I believe, is still in love with Baltar so I think she's wondering if Tigh could have fallen in love with her and that's how she was able to become pregnant. It would be interesting if they would address this because a) it's likely Tigh was imagining he was with Ellen and could it be his love for her that had something to do with this and b) Caprica never became pregnant by Baltar which might be a wake up call to her that he never really loved her.

Re: Part the First

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yet again, we get the Ron Moore Psychology 101. Let's beat each other up! That will clear the air and make things better!

Yup! And it didn't bother me the first few times, because there is something cathartic about yelling, or, I can buy, if you're in a violent military lifestyle, about violence. It's not healthy, but little about life on Galactica is. When Kara punched Lee and then Lee punched Kara back at the end of Season One, I loved it. Though partly I also loved it that they didn't immediately start giggling and making up. But it gets used SO often that by now it's a BSGcliche and something about this one in particular grated on me because it's not even like it was something that could be solved by fighting. Like with Kara and Lee in UB - at least one could argue that all they really had to do was forgive each other, there were no practical issues to address. But there are actual genuine issues at stake this time! GRR!

Hee! I don't get Cylon hair. Does it not grow? I mean, she's been locked up for months. Why aren't her roots showing? They can bring her peroxide, but not a change a clothes? The girl needs a sweater! And, as I've asked before, why is it that only the Sixes have different hair colors and styles? I need answers!

Sharon's hair grows while she's in the brig during season 2 and she's cut it much shorter by season 3, but Caprica's hair doesn't seem to be growing, no. My only thought is that it must "naturally" be that colour (since she's a machine, why not?), and that as well as regular medical checkups she's entitled to hair cuts? I mean, I know that sounds weird, but I think that in actual prisons there is provision for having your hair cut, so perhaps when Cottle checks her out ever month or whatever, someone cuts her hair? I'm...overthinking this.

But to prove I'm a total dork, I do actually have a theory about why the Sixes look more different. We saw peroxide!Blonde D'Anna the first time we met her in The Final Cut, but after that they all had the same hair. And the Sharons only seem to change when Grace Park cuts her hair. I think the metatextual reason is that it's easier to take Tricia Helfer out of a wig than to put Grace Park or Lucy Lawless in one. But we don't even get different hairstyles. A Simon with hair, or a Doral that wears it spiky, or a Leoben who has a side-parting.

But all the models except Six have a single name they seem to primarily identify with. They can be referred to by either their model number or their model name. Sharon Valerii, Leoben Conoy, Brother Cavil, etc. I'm sure at various points members of that model have had other aliases in undercover work, but it seems that if they can use that name, they do. But the Sixes, we don't know what their "default name" is. Is it Shelly Godfrey? Gina Invierre? Natalie?

Maybe the reason we get black- and brown-haired Sixes is the same reason they go for different names. The Eights might be considered the "weakest" and "most human", but I think maybe the Sixes are the most individualistic?

Caprica, I believe, is still in love with Baltar so I think she's wondering if Tigh could have fallen in love with her and that's how she was able to become pregnant.

Oh, interesting point. And a much more interesting twist on her question. I'd always assumed it was the cylon partner who needed to be in love since at least then I could...vaguely consider it would trigger some programmed internal response in them that would overcome their apparent infertility. But if it really is a purely metaphysical requirement, then perhaps it's the human partner who has to be able to love the cylon as more than a machine? Weird.

But also regarding Baltar, I think that Caprica is probably still in love with him on some level, yes, but I also think that she knows he doesn't deserve that love. I think she's incredibly bitter about the fact she still loves him.

Re: Part the First

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

re: Caprica's baby fulfillment.

I think(fear) things will go the easy route and Caprica will finally find love and gentleness in this pregnancy (particularly if she actually ends up having the baby, which makes for an interesting return to the Caprica who curiously broke the infant's neck in the beginning). Otherwise, as far as character development goes, there's only so far this particular Six can go because I think of all of them, she's the one that's embodied the sexandviolence role of this particular model.

re: Adama's rescue of his love: I like your scenario. I do so love it when she admonishes him like that.

Re: Part the First

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I mean, it's interesting BECAUSE the first thing we ever saw this character do was snap an infant's neck, and it's going to be weird if they play this with err, "straight" as in all, sweetness and fulfillment and light. But I honestly don't really think they will? Perhaps I'm just being overly hopeful.

It's interesting you think that Caprica Six is the one who embodies the SexAndViolence role. I mean, I think that Sixes are like that, but underneath they're horribly vulnerable. They're sort of like the opposite of the Eights. Who are easily led and vulnerable on the surface, but there's a bitterness and a steel underneath that that informs everything they do. Sixes always strike me as, well, child soldiers I guess.

And this Six in particular - she's really, really different to Baltar's Head!Six. Her primary weapons are still sex and violence, but the motivations behind their use are increasingly fear and sorrow and pain and love and loss? Which is...really interesting to me. I actually think that if they gave her more scenes, Caprica Six could be an amazing character. But...they just tossed her in the brig and forgot about her mostly, for half a season.

Also WORD to Roslin admonishing Adama! It's like the one part of their relationship I do love. When Roslin refuses to put up with his crap!

Re: Part the First

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Oh no no sorry ... I totally agree on their vulnerability and I like your comparison to the Eights. I just meant that Caprica seems to default to the sex and violence essentially, but then there's always that "Do youlove me?(???)" moment hanging around right at the surface.

I think they could do the baby thing well with her without having to play it "straight." My creative mind can't exactly think of how right at the moment though. But there is obviously an ability in them for compassion, considering the way Natalie held Hera.

Part the Second

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Kara seems to be the CAG again. I guess they've decided to just pretend to forget that whole "back from the dead" thing. Maybe they had a fist-fight about it?

Hee! I actually loved Kara in this episode, but I will also admit it makes very little sense in context of the Kara we’ve seen over the past several weeks. She was written to fit this episode, not the arc they’ve put in place for her.

but I do have to wonder why he decided the best way to reunite them was to put a toddler in a prison cell with no amenities rather than putting Sharon under House Arrest...

That confused me as well. And why make the child suffer?

I suppose, of all the Sixes, she wanted love from the final five, from the people she led, rather than from a single person. But again, she was denied. The moment where Cottle held her hand, and she saw trees, was...gorgeous. But dammit, I loved her, and now she's dead.

I think they blew some great story possibilities by killing Natalie. I actually grew to like her more than Caprica. I felt she was becoming more human than the Sixes we’ve seen before. And she, more than any other cylon, was pushing to level the playing field between the races and broker a way that they could co-exist, if not on the same planet, at least in the same galaxy. Now what happens with her gone? Do they go back to being at war?

My theory has been for a while now - since someone very smart noted the prominent resistance roles they all had on New Caprica - that the Five are on humanity's side, and are actually cylon from the last time all this happened - the time of Pythia. But now, knowing that the Significant Seven half know about them but being programmed not to think about them? I'm wondering if the Final Five assisted in the creation of the Significant Seven, raising their numbers to that magical twelve again but removing themselves from their creations' consciousnesses and disappearing among the humans. It makes me wonder if what the Final Five are really doing is ensuring that the cycle continues. Making sure the Cylon are created, and making sure the humans survive?

I don’t really have much to add at this time, but it’s an interesting theory. I think you are, at least in part, on to something.

Re: Part the Second

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hee! I actually loved Kara in this episode, but I will also admit it makes very little sense in context of the Kara we’ve seen over the past several weeks. She was written to fit this episode, not the arc they’ve put in place for her.

I sort of agree with you. It bothered me at first: why was she so much calmer after all that had happened? But I also think that in retrospect, her realisation that "harbinger of death" meant death for the cylon not her own people, and a feeling that she at least succeeded in bringing a lead to Earth back to the Fleet vindicating her previous behaviour might have a role in her increased levels of sanity. Though that doesn't explain why everyone else is all, "OH HAI CAGKARA! WELCOME BACK!"

That confused me as well. And why make the child suffer?

Well at least this time we know where Hera is, unlike that time Mommy and Daddy went on Holiday on the Demetrius and left her with the window cracked and a bowl of water... Cus, really, I'm still wondering who was babysitting her. For that matter, who had her before she was taken to the brig?

I think they blew some great story possibilities by killing Natalie. I actually grew to like her more than Caprica.

I agree. Though because she died while the Resurrection Hub was still functioning, I have a tiny sliver of hope she may have resurrected? I know that most of the ships were beyond the reach of the Hub, but that was when they were jumping way all over the place on their way there. And were trapped by the Cavils. The Fleet itself seemed to only be a jump or two away by Raptor, so perhaps she'll resurrect in the Hub itself? *clings to vain hopes*

Though I don't think that they'll go back to being at war. Or rather, that will depend on the Rebels response to the death of their leader, but the entire ship Rebelled. And there seems to be a leading Eight and Kara's Leoben in leadership roles too. The Rebels still can't go back to the other Cylon. I think that while this may screw with their truce and revert it to that old hostage-taking phase, they'll still be forced to work together?

I don’t really have much to add at this time, but it’s an interesting theory. I think you are, at least in part, on to something.

Yeah, I'm loath to suggest it makes sense but it at least gives me a framework to interpret the show? Also good to know that it makes some amount of sense to someone else!

Also, I should prbably confess - when I saw that Tory was now Lee's aide my first thought was to handle the massive A/R backlash by becoming a rabid Lee/Tory shipper...

You know I'm right...

Re: Part the Second

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Well at least this time we know where Hera is, unlike that time Mommy and Daddy went on Holiday on the Demetrius and left her with the window cracked and a bowl of water... Cus, really, I'm still wondering who was babysitting her. For that matter, who had her before she was taken to the brig?

Hmmmm, Jake makes a reappearance just as Adama orders Hera's return to Athena. I think we found the babysitter!

Also, I should prbably confess - when I saw that Tory was now Lee's aide my first thought was to handle the massive A/R backlash by becoming a rabid Lee/Tory shipper...

Heh. But we have Presidents! now! And if L/L do it on the desk whose desk is it? ;)

Re: Part the Second

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, Jake makes a reappearance just as Adama orders Hera's return to Athena. I think we found the babysitter!

O.O

What's that you say boy? Hera's fallen down a well?!

...you're on to something.

Heh. But we have Presidents! now! And if L/L do it on the desk whose desk is it? ;)

I hereby offer to recant of my Lee/Tory heresy if we immediately for a subcommittee to determine the answer to this VERY IMPORTANT question. *nods sagely*

[heyiya.livejournal.com]

Just watched BSG and came to your recap to see if the insanity was in part my jet-lagged brain, but I think not -- it just made NO SENSE. NO SENSE AT ALL. I guess this season has been kind of building up to complete insanity on a personal, political and military level, but it wasn't even insanity that *fit*. And the narrative prefiguration of President Lee was so annoyingly obvious!

I like your theory about the final five though. I've been thinking vaguely similar things.

For a while I was like OMG THE CAT IS THE FINAL CYLON. But now I think perhaps the dog... heroic resistance fighter, it all fits! (Okay, that probably is my jet lag talking now...)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

No, I agree there was some...incoherency here.

Though I think that the political insanity rests solely on the shoulders of Adama. I mean he basically staged a military coup but instead of putting himself in charge he sat in the corner and sulked until they picked someone he liked, then quit anyway.

Like, it pisses me off that they were ina situation where they had to pick someone other than Zarek. I can see why Lee - having tried to convince his father to play by the LAW would just be blunt about it - because he tried and couldn't fix it and had to admit that he'd failed. But seriously? Adama? WHAT WERE YOU DOING?

And then Adama's bizarre behaviour itself lead to the military insanity.

I guess the only insanity I really felt 'fit' was the personal insanity?

Though when I view the political and military insanity as an offshoot of that it sits much better with me. Because weirdly I don't actually dislike this episode. I find its incoherency compelling, even. I like the idea of having bizarre stuff like Tigh in charge of the Fleet, or even Lee as President (though it was anviltastic within the episode). I just...it was weird and that's the only way I can describe it. :/

I like your theory about the final five though. I've been thinking vaguely similar things.

Hooray! I shall take that as a sign that I am not crazy and we are both smart. :p

For a while I was like OMG THE CAT IS THE FINAL CYLON. But now I think perhaps the dog... heroic resistance fighter, it all fits! (Okay, that probably is my jet lag talking now...)

NO! I love this idea!

Why should the final cylon look human? THAT'S JUST DOGGIST!

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I believe you meant to say, "That's just daggit!"

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

AAAAAARGH!

*runs screaming into the night*

I used to watch Original BSG as a kid an that damn bear-dog-with-no-knee-joints freaked me RIGHT out. GRR!

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

Wandered over on asta77's rec. This is great fun--equal parts snark and thinky! And there are a bunch of points I'd love to respond to, but my brain is a little weary at this hour, so I shall limit myself!

Her desperate search for love - what defines and dooms Caprica...sometimes all Sixes, is, well, tragic and painful

This struck me, as well, though I felt like if she and Tigh could ever manage to get over their mountains of baggage, they might actually be well-matched. Each of them has been defined by their lavishing of love on unworthy recipients, people who seem for the most part incapable of loving them back (or at least of doing so in a way that doesn't end in death). I don't really expect them to manage to see each other, to know each other--and I also acknowledge that this is far more Tigh's problem than Caprica's--and even to learn to love each other, they might each finally learn to be loved in return.

And oddly, while this moved slightly more towards me feeling the show was saying, "Look at how HEROIC Adama is," rather than the refreshing feeling I've had this season that it was saying, "Look how ALONE AND LONELY AND UNABLE TO COPE WITH CHANGE Adama is,"

Huh. I really didn't get any of that first sentiment from this ep. Much more of the "look how broken and clueless and emotionally stunted Adama is" kind of refrain. As flawed as the execution of the sine qua non theme was, I did think the episode managed on pretty much all counts to show that the thing one can't live without is at least as destructive as it is romantic, if not considerably more so. I got the impression that we're meant to be entirely ambivalent about Adama's actions here. (At least ambivalent, and perhaps downright condemnatory. I mean, I'm kind of fond of the guy, and I'm admittedly a fan of Adama/Roslin, though certainly not in the conventional mold of that crowd, but he is an undeniable ass!) In case you're interested, chaila43 talks quite a lot about Bill and his motivations in her ep review, and I think she nails him.

And yes, no episode should be entirely without Laura Roslin! There should be a rule! ;)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hi! :D New people are awesome, and it seems asta is totally my pimp. :p

Anyway I'm glad you found it entertaining and thanks for stopping by to offer your thoughts!

This struck me, as well, though I felt like if she and Tigh could ever manage to get over their mountains of baggage, they might actually be well-matched.

OH THANK GOD I'm not the only one who sort of, vaguely, thinks that. I mean, I don't actually believe it'll happen. I think that instead the relationship will keep on being weirdly...abusive. And I'm also weirdly all right with that as long as Caprica keeps...fighting back? Like the first time they have a scene together in that brig in season three, Tigh punches her for guessing what's going on with him, and she punches him right back. And then she beats the crap out of him at the start of S4. Which isn't to say violence is all right, or that it's fine to beat up Caprica as long as she sometimes lands a punch in return. It's more to say that at least that's a different dynamic to Gina/Pegasus, and it has the potential for horrible twisted awesomeness.

And is all the more screwy because like you say, if they could get over their issues (especially Tigh), they might actually have a shot. And the fact I believe that is so damn wrong... :/

Huh. I really didn't get any of that first sentiment from this ep. Much more of the "look how broken and clueless and emotionally stunted Adama is" kind of refrain.

I'm willing to admit that you're probably right on this point and a great deal of my feeling that it's a little more "oooh, stoic and awesome," is tied to my very ambivalent feelings about the way the show treated his awful behaviour in season three. They've been much more awesome about it in season four. Also, I think that I'm reacting to the end when he leaves the Fleet. While he's pretty clearly being an ass prior to that, I kind of felt that the show was casting his decision to leave Tigh in charge and take a raptor and go off on his own as "noble and heroic and putting things right," when really, it's better than what he was doing, but it's still kind poor behaviour?

Anyway, THANK YOU for the episode review recc, and thanks for such an interesting comment. :D

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

I'm willing to admit that you're probably right on this point and a great deal of my feeling that it's a little more "oooh, stoic and awesome," is tied to my very ambivalent feelings about the way the show treated his awful behaviour in season three.


Which particular awful behaviour from S3 are you referring to here? You may have to narrow it down a little.

And a lot of my ambivalence stems from not knowing if there's going to be follow-up. I mean, I hated Tyrol's rant about Cally in "Escape Velocity" at the time, but in the context of the next episode, I became okay with it. As part of the ongoing story, the rant becomes him trying to convince himself he didn't care about her, and push Adama into demoting him. So if Adama gets royally bitchslapped in the next ep (or possibly the ep after that, as from the preview, it looks like the next one will will be covering the same time period as this one, only on the baseship). Where was I? Oh yeah, if Roslin, for example, reams him out after they're reunited, or in some other way negative consequences accrue to his decisions, I'll feel better about it. But in the context of what we've seen so far, it feels to me like the show is pushing the "romantic and heroic" card rather than the "a military coup, for frak's sake?" card.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Which particular awful behaviour from S3 are you referring to here? You may have to narrow it down a little.

AHAHAHAHAAAA! *iz enjoying stretching her hysterical laughter muscles*

Well, let's see, which bit was worst? Ignoring his son cus he was fat, beating on his adopted daughter cus she was upset, beating on the Chief cus he was upset, threatening to murder a member of his crew in response to an illegal strike, attempting to engage his son in a game of "who loved Starbuck more", attempting to pervert the course of justice, blaming his son for the fact his drunken best friend murdered his own wife, or reinstating Saul "THEY PUT THE MUSIC IN THE SHIP, BILL" Tigh back to active duty in the middle of a catastrophe. THERE'S JUST SO MUCH TO CHOOSE FROM! XD

And a lot of my ambivalence stems from not knowing if there's going to be follow-up.

Yes, I absolutely agree.

I didn't talk much about the fact that Adama instituted what is effectively a military coup in this entry because, frankly, it would have quickly swamped everything because...wow is that awful. Awful to the point that even Lee is too exhausted to fight it and is rolling over and just hoping that as long as they don't piss Adama off too bad they can at least have some semblance of pretend-consent-of-the-people.

But my worry is that because they had Adama realise he was being an ass as part of the episode's structure, they'll then drop it and forget the fact that he hasn't actually fixed any of the mess he created, because ZOMG HE DID SOMETHING ROMANTICAL.

So yeah, thanks for helping contextualise my irritation and why I felt worried about the show's direction regarding this in the future, even though a lot of the episode itself acknoweldged Adama's shortcomings. I worry the episode also thinks it fixed them and made him awesome again. :/

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

It is fun to talk to new people about the show, isn't it? I'm always a fan of a variety of perspectives. :)

And yes, I do suspect that we won't see any significant positive change from the Caprica/Tigh relationship. It does help that she fights back, I agree, but I would like to see them become less abusive. I'm also not quite sure what's in it for her: does she actually care for him, even love him? She isn't under the illusion that he's some sort of substitute Baltar like he's under the illusion she's a substitute Ellen. In the initial exchange in "Escape Velocity" I think she reached out to him first in violence and then in affection as a genuine attempt to help him heal. Is that still what's going on? Is it working? I find myself oddly interested in this relationship!

I do fear that the introduction of a baby plot here is going to lead to epic fail, but I have a history of being extraordinarily skeptical of baby plots. I'm also pretty irritated by the way the show has been treating its women this season, and if pregnancy suddenly solves all of Caprica's problems, I'm going to have Things To Say, I suspect. But I'll withhold judgment until we see how it plays out!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

It is fun to talk to new people about the show, isn't it? I'm always a fan of a variety of perspectives. :)

YES! :)

And yes, I do suspect that we won't see any significant positive change from the Caprica/Tigh relationship. It does help that she fights back, I agree, but I would like to see them become less abusive.

Me too. If only because, as you say, I am also oddly interested in this relationship. I've been fascinated by Tigh since his S3 breakdown, and I've been intrigued by this dynamic since she beat the crap out of him. So I guess my preference would be to allow it to develop as a relationship not wholly based on violence and sex? Because that could be cracktacular? And allow both characters more interesting development?

I'm fascinated by what she wants from him too, actually. Mostly because Caprica herself didn't fully understand why she returned with Athena to the Galactica. Head!Baltar suggests it's because she wants to be human. I think...I think she doesn't know what else to do with herself.

I think she's desperate for connection and to be loved. She'd lived more than any other cylon and they didn't understand her anymore. New Caprica was a clusterfrak. Gaius frakked her over again after that. She doesn't know what to do or what she wants, but she knows that she wants to be alive. I think that was what attracted her to Tigh? A vulnerability and shared affirmation of existence-through-pain? Finally after months of sitting alone in that brig, someone needed her for something. And Caprica desperately, above all things, wants to be needed because it's as close as she's going to get to being loved?

I do fear that the introduction of a baby plot here is going to lead to epic fail, but I have a history of being extraordinarily skeptical of baby plots. I'm also pretty irritated by the way the show has been treating its women this season, and if pregnancy suddenly solves all of Caprica's problems, I'm going to have Things To Say, I suspect.

Well we are absolutely in agreement about having Things To Say if pregnancy = fulfillment, made worse by the fact it would be while trapped in a cell in an abusive relationship! Though like you I'm willing to withold judgement and see how it plays out.

I'm...ambivalent but not hostile to the babyplot. By keeping Hera and Nicky in the background they've actually done pretty well on this show so far at not having it be a sharkjumping issue, and in some ways, considering reproduction has been an expressed theme and philosophical point since the end of season one - arguably since "33" when Head!Six started asking Gaius if he wanted kids since it was one of God's commandments - they sort of have to explore the baby-issue.

But, as most of the rest of the mainstream media proves, it's very, very difficult to navigate the dramatic and sexist minefield of BABIEZ on TV.

I will say that I'm mildly surprised that you're pissed at the way the show has been treating its female characters. I do get that there are some issues - specifically with Baltar and whoring out Tory. Perhaps with the number of women who die as major or minor plotpoints. But the second issue I'm more inclined to accept because, Tory's Baltar subplot notwithstanding, this season has been all about the girls. I mean, this is the first episode where the guys got any major play. Even Adama's been relegated, effectively, to Laura's sidekick. Not that that means that I think that gives it a free pass on the Baltar crap, but I suppose it means it doesn't tip the balance away from the awesomeness of the major figures in pretty much every storyline being girls? It makes me feel that Barolay and Matthias didn't die cus they were women, they died cus even the minor kickass characters (sacrificial lambs to drama though they may be) are all girls this year.

I am, however, willing to consider that I don't want to see what's there. I certainly don't want to say that your reading of the situation is invalid.

And, well, if we get a storyline where Caprica is over the moon and starts decorating her cell with kittens and puppies and ducklings and keeps waiting for Saul to propose, I may...throw something...heavy.

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

It's nice to feel potentially hopeful (hope tempered with the healthy skepticism borne of however many years of becoming invested in television shows!) that they'll do something interesting with Caprica. I was so thrilled when she ended up on Galactica, and then...nothing. On one hand the pregnancy worries me; I feel like too often writers look at a female character they can't figure out what to do with and think, "oh, let's give her a baby!" and that just never ends well. But you're right that this show has done better than most with handling babies so far and that Cylons' interest in procreation has been there from the start, so the foundation has been laid (and hey, one of the first times we saw Caprica, she was snapping the neck of an infant...). So it might not be such a terrible way to go, plot-wise. Reserving judgment, as I said.

But yes, I'm more interested in the Caprica/Tigh possibilities. Tigh's doing a little better, perhaps, at discovering the man he wants to be, and I actually suspect this stint in command may be good for him (either that or it will utterly break him). If he can start to learn more about who he is and reconcile that with who he wants to be, maybe he can enter into this relationship on better terms. And if they have a proper truce with the Cylons, maybe they can let Caprica out of the brig, and who knows.

Of course, what am I talking about! This is the show of Death and Gloom, and any glimmer of hope is indicative of lots of shit about to hit the fan! ;)

As for the recent treatment of women, yes, Tory's plotline and the female body count are the two things that are pissing me off, combined with residual annoyance from "Razor"--because it's really not all that progressive to have a canonically lesbian character if you make her evil and then kill her. (Don't get me wrong: I think Cain is a fantastic character, and if there were lots of openly homosexual characters on the show, there wouldn't be a problem. But when you've only got one, and she's portrayed as one of the more reprehensible characters on the show, I call shenanigans.)

But they've killed off Cally, Matthias, Barolay, the Six and the Eight on the basestar, and Natalie in as many weeks, compared with only Pike (and who cared about him?) on the male side, and I do find that problematic. Matthias's death was the most pointless and could have been anyone. The others have all served some sort of narrative purpose (although there better be good payoff for Natalie's death, because I'm pissed that they killed her so quickly), but all on top of each other like that I'm just seeing a lot of dead women. I don't think the writers realize quite how that comes across.

I do agree that many of the women have had super important roles, and so much of everything is all going to come down to Kara and Laura, I'm sure: the two of them at the center. And I'm not discounting that. But Laura, despite rocking so hard it's amazing anyone can be coherent in her presence, is going to die at the end, as well (and I'm okay with that and have been all along, but still). And Natalie looked like she was going to have a big important role to play, yet now she's dead. Caprica's pregnant. Sharon's in jail. The writers mean well, I do believe, but I don't think they're nearly as progressively feminist as they like to think, and they're doing worse now than they were early on.

It's not gotten to the point where I need to do hardcore ranting (but if they kill Racetrack--for whose life I fear every time she appears--I might have to!), and I'd prefer to focus on the myriad of things I'm enjoying about the show anyway, but it has consistently been bothering me.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I was so thrilled when she ended up on Galactica, and then...nothing.

I felt exactly the same way. Tricia Helfer is an amazing actress but her main "character" is a figment of someone's imagination, and Gina was a short-term plot arc. I was (and still am) hoping that Caprica can now get some actual serious development in the back half of this season. Or at least that Natalie will resurrect and she'll get some more play.

and I actually suspect this stint in command may be good for him (either that or it will utterly break him).

Yeah, I'm interested in this too, and I agree with you. Fortunately, I'm happy to watch either scenario! Though a lot of my feeling about that comes from things I know that Adama doesn't, and he was still an idiot to leave the guy in charge, even though I think he'll do better than last time. Huh...that sounds weird, but I STICK BY MY ASSESSMENT! ;)

Of course, what am I talking about! This is the show of Death and Gloom, and any glimmer of hope is indicative of lots of shit about to hit the fan! ;)

HAHA! So true!

Don't get me wrong: I think Cain is a fantastic character, and if there were lots of openly homosexual characters on the show, there wouldn't be a problem. But when you've only got one, and she's portrayed as one of the more reprehensible characters on the show, I call shenanigans.

Yeah, I understand the issues there. Honestly, I think that like you say, it's the lack of context. It seems...unfair that Cain - a fascinating character with great attention paid to her and her motivations and an amazing actress, ends up in the situation where she can either be written as heterosexual and not challenge those barriers at all, or homosexual and be caught up in an entirely different set, simply because the show failed to contextualise it well enough.

Which isn't me saying that we ought to give them a pass on their overall treatment of that issue simply because Michelle Forbes kicks ass and Razor had some great writing. It's me saying, it pisses me off that such a wonderfully complex evil lesbian can't simply be appreciated as the marvelous character she is, because the writers for some reason didn't want to make the fact that Gaeta has a crush on Gaius official, or have Kat plant one on Kara.

Though Asta - below - does bring up an interesting point, which is that we've pretty much blown through our third tier male pilot roster. There's really only Hotdog left, and Narcho but I have trouble remembering what he looks like. But I do grant that it was a crying shame to kill Matthias, and I also had an "OMG DON'T KILL RACETRACK" moment. I also get nervous every time Seelix is on screen. And I think the only reason I don't feel that way about Hotdog is 1) I don't really care about Hotdog and 2) I know that the actor is related to EJO.

Also, I doubt Sharon will stay in jail for that long. Though I may be naive.

But still, stuff to think about, thank you.

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

It's me saying, it pisses me off that such a wonderfully complex evil lesbian can't simply be appreciated as the marvelous character she is, because the writers for some reason didn't want to make the fact that Gaeta has a crush on Gaius official, or have Kat plant one on Kara.

Yes, this, exactly. If they'd just been including gay characters all along, not making a big thing of it, they could have played Cain exactly like they did and done it with a lot less fail.

As for there not being that many male characters around to kill, I take the point, but I tend to see that more as explanation rather than excuse, if that makes sense: it may help explain why we've got all these dead women, but it doesn't absolve them of any of the related sketchiness of it, in my mind. Why not kill Hotdog, if you need to kill someone? (yes, yes, his last name is Olmos) Why not kill Romo Lampkin, now that we've reintroduced him? This is controversial because these are both popular and fairly main characters, but why are Gaeta and Helo marked as safe (apparently)? And we can't kill Anders because he's one of the final five--but why are at least 3/5 of the final five men anyway? There are more women around for cannon fodder this season partly because three men got elevated to "unexpendable."

Don't get me wrong: I love Anders tremendously, as well as Tigh and Tyrol. And I don't want to see any of them killed, any more than I want to see Gaeta or Helo or Romo killed. But I do think that there has been some failure on the part of the writers to think through the long-term implications of some of their decisions: they make X decisions about these characters (male), which in turn necessitates Y decisions about these other characters (female), and while I can completely understand why, neither do they get a free pass. Explanation =/= excuse.

In addition to worrying about Racetrack and Seelix, I also remain very worried for Skulls because he's inhabiting exactly the sort of space in which people die--important enough for us to care but not important enough to make a difference to the story--and it would figure, of course, that once they get around to killing a male character we care about, it would be the one black man on the entire show.

Ah well! Sorry to be negative! The show really is a lot better than many when it comes to gender, and although their race and sexual orientation track record is fairly unimpressive, I've seen worse. But I do notice these things, and even when I can manage some amount of handwaving, they do niggle at the back of my mind, and lately the nigglings have been building up a little more than usual.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Way late reply!

I don't really have much to say about this except that I actually forgot about Skulls even though I was like, "Oh! Yay! Skulls!" when he showed up, which is never a good sign. Though also, you are right about the fact that this show is not stellar re: race issues either, and Hotdog is one of the few nonwhite pilots.

And don't worry about being negative. I understand that you're not here to tear down the show, just to...discuss aspects of it that could do with some discussion. Liking something doesn't mean you have to approve of everything it does. ;)

And thanks also for taking the time to explain about your position - it was enlightening and I do feel I understand the issues a bit better now.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

this season has been all about the girls. I mean, this is the first episode where the guys got any major play. Even Adama's been relegated, effectively, to Laura's sidekick. Not that that means that I think that gives it a free pass on the Baltar crap, but I suppose it means it doesn't tip the balance away from the awesomeness of the major figures in pretty much every storyline being girls? It makes me feel that Barolay and Matthias didn't die cus they were women, they died cus even the minor kickass characters (sacrificial lambs to drama though they may be) are all girls this year.

My view of the role of the women on the show is more in line with yours. I've read plenty of posts about the gender issues and I certainly see the points and understand why people are upset. But I've been looking at the numerous deaths of female characters being a result of there being so many female characters and so many of them filling significant to major roles. I suppose they could bump off some male pilots, but besides Anders (who I would think needs to stick around for awhile giving his Final Five status) and Hot Dog (who is played by EJO's son - guess what his chances are to be around for the long haul? ;p) I don't know who there is to kill off. Narcho, but he only pops up every six eps or so. I think that may be an availability issue. Gaeta did lose a leg and will be suffering for awhile. And it is interesting, that of the four revealed Cylons, it's Tory who is the one holding it together. Tigh, Anders, and Tyrol have all gone a little nuts. Huh. I wonder if that means Romo is the fifth?!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OH GOD I HOPE ROMO IS NOT THE FIFTH!

Ahem.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I pretty much agree. We just don't have any minor male characters anymore, except Hotdog.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Oh so many things... where to start. Okay.. here goes.. BACKWARDS!

FF: I haven't thought much about the Five since their intro, but your theory holds merit. I will add that perhaps the FF are prototypes from which the Seven followed. They were "flawed" in their mortality and perhaps they were too human.

President Leland: Yes that was obvious from the beginning and I will assume that Romo's LOOKAMEEEI'MALLOFASUDDENCRAZY (it was clearly a cooler bag that would have been perfectly sealed until Lee opened it, btw) is what tipped Lee over the edge, but I will bite and accept that Lee sekrittly (so sekrit he doesn't even know). And of course we needed Romo's magical insight powers to show us this and then voila! He's president! I don't buy though the logic that Bill would have accepted him. Only reason why he didn't was cuz he had more important things to do.

Rosama: "Because I can't live without her." Awwwwww *cuddle*

Tighdama: Oh good lord.

Caprica: I am wondering if she will have the baby and things will come full circle from her breaking the baby's neck in the beginning and here she will learn unconditional love from a baby. And maybe this is what the vision means and it's not actually Hera she's taking but a child - her child. With crazy Tigh. Ew. Tigh babies.

Natalie: Where is she from? Why can't I remember? Anyway, I loved her death, not because of the pretty lights (bah, she ought to have seen Nana Visitor on a boat), but because it was big bad brusk Cottle that gave her the final comfort.

Law & Order: Is Sam in the brig? Nah, why would he be? Especially with Kara as CAG. They happened upon Leoben and thus proved her uncrazy so it made all the bad of the Demetrius go away. Boy this show loves doing that...

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Okay.. here goes.. BACKWARDS!

YAY!

I will add that perhaps the FF are prototypes from which the Seven followed. They were "flawed" in their mortality and perhaps they were too human.

Wow, that's interesting. I gotta think about that. Because my instinct is to make them more advanced models because the reproductive issue seems to be something they can't manage, rather than something they've evolved beyond. That said, my whole reason for putting them back to the last great "time revolution" is so that they can be both more advanced and older. Because the fact that the Cylon don't actually know who programmed them and that they're also programmed not to think of the Five screams "the FF programmed you, bitches!" at me.

(it was clearly a cooler bag that would have been perfectly sealed until Lee opened it, btw)

OH THANK YOU FOR RESTORING MY SANITY. That was really bothering me!

Also I was not hugely impressed by CrazyRomo, but like you, I'm willing to say, well, okay, I'll bit and accept it.

Rosama: "Because I can't live without her." Awwwwww *cuddle*

Blergh! *cranky*

:p

Tighdama: Oh good lord.

That is a good reaction. Though not as great as this one:

AHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAAHAHHHAAHAAAAAA!

I am wondering if she will have the baby and things will come full circle from her breaking the baby's neck in the beginning and here she will learn unconditional love from a baby.

Yeah, I thought of that moment in the mini series too. And we also have the Oracle's prophecy that Hera would teach Three true love, so perhaps the theme of the unconditional love of children will continue here?

Ew. Tigh babies.

I know.

I know.

*weeps*

I loved her death, not because of the pretty lights (bah, she ought to have seen Nana Visitor on a boat), but because it was big bad brusk Cottle that gave her the final comfort.

COTTLE!

Oh, Cottle, I heart him. I hope he's not the final cylon though. He's too awesomely crotchety as a humanperson.

Is Sam in the brig? Nah, why would he be? Especially with Kara as CAG. They happened upon Leoben and thus proved her uncrazy so it made all the bad of the Demetrius go away. Boy this show loves doing that...

I think that it would depend on whether the it was viewed as a mutiny or a correct use of the articles to remove Kara from command. That would determine whether Anders was acting illegally or not. Though there's also the fact that even if he is in the brig, like Kara during the attacks, perhaps they let him out to help with this massive assault they're planning?

But...yeah. What probably happened is Anders and Gaeta had a three-legged fist-fight and then made up!

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Pardon that Leland paragraph which is missing several chunks of thought. This is my brain. This is my brain on babies. It's not unconditional love you'll find, Six; it's Mommy Brain!

Cottle would make an awesome FF! Archetype: Great big pokey teddy bear!

I'm not worried about protocol when it comes to Kara -> CAG and Anders -> weee! because, well, when is protocol an issue on this fleet anymore, much less sanity? *points to the new Galactica actual.

I know you love your L/L but I'm quite fond of B/L and am hoping that his time of solitude will be enough to grow the pornstache back.

I think my original FF thinkies involved them being created by the 13th, who then left the prototype for the rest to be created. They seem too human, and have fought against the Cylons, so if I work with the assumption that the Cylons created the other seven, [insert super awesome realization here that I have now totally forgotten].

However, judging by the numbers (why are the seven not numbered One through Seven?), it stands to reason that all twelve were created either together, or at least were started together, with maybe the 13th Tribe doing something with the Five and leaving them behind to protect the other 12 tribes from themselves (ie knowing their crappy treatment of the Cylons would come back and bite them in the ass).

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

OH that was it! THe 13th (humans) made the Five with the help of the Cylons and made them almost completely human. The Cylons later tried to make their own, but being robots, couldn't grasp the humanity and instead came up with the archetypes, plus made them "better" by not making them crazylikeatigh! by adding the resurrection technology etc...

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OOOOOH, now that's interesting.

That's an interesting way to make the Five more human but also older without making them inherently more advanced? Instead of the seven being more robotic because they're less advanced and closer to the Centurions, they're more robotic because they were built by the Five. Who are themselves almost human but still perhaps missing a part of that...creativity? Understanding of humanity?

I don't want to say that the Five are less than human because I like that this show treats the Cylon as just as complex if fundamentally different to humans, if unable to process the fact that they have very "human" responses and therefore attempt to deal with those emotions in a very machinelike way.

But there's something interesting about the idea that the Seven are less human because they're twice-removed from humanity, whereas the Five are only one-removed?

I MUST PONDER!

(Also, you should take it as a sign of my great affection for you that I forgive you your B/L tendencies, but WANTING THE PORNSTACHE BACK IS PUSHING IT, LADY! :p)

I cleary need to photoshop this icon

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

(Also, you should take it as a sign of my great affection for you that I forgive you your B/L tendencies, but WANTING THE PORNSTACHE BACK IS PUSHING IT, LADY! :p)

ROFL I'm sorry but I can't help it! Pornstache and a wee bit o' green? What a great way to celebrate a discovery of Earth!

But there's something interesting about the idea that the Seven are less human because they're twice-removed from humanity, whereas the Five are only one-removed?

Yeah that's my thinking - just because the seven are so cleary set in their programming.

And which of them made the raiders?