BSG: The Hub
Jun. 8th, 2008 07:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccatoriaAnd this, my friends, is why Laura Roslin always was, and always will be, a far better, a far more decent person than Gaius Baltar.
I tried to cut this down, I promise, I did. I can't. It hit me in the gut. So the first part is longer than sanity, and please, feel free to just read the above sentence then skip down to "Reality", which is where I get crack!serious.
It's strange. Throughout season one, I liked Baltar. I mean, I personally liked him on some weird level. I felt bad for him. Sure I thought he was dangerous because of his own selfishness, his own weakness and his narcissism. Sure I thought he screwed up so badly he caused the destruction of nearly everyone alive in the galaxy. And I loved how that was juxtaposed with the fact that Baltar is (was) such a gentle person. A spoiled child, sure, but the gentleness and the fear, and the guilt. Because the guilt was there. Every time it reared its head, he ran from it, coming up with a dozen excuses about how really, really, it wasn't him, but he never succeeded. Never exorcised it. We kept watching him screw up, try to walk that line between keeping Gaius Baltar safe and Not Screwing Over Humanity. Such a tiny measure of decency, but you have to start somewhere. And on a human decency scale of one to one-hundred, Baltar was always, at least, an eight.
Even in season three, after the disaster of New Caprica, I believed he did the best he could. It was a crappy best, but he was trying. He was scoring 8/100; maybe even 12/100 when he did things like refuse to sign the death sentences until they shot his girlfriend and threatened to shoot him. He was stuck on a baseship, threatened with death, threatened with love, hell, got tortured. I didn't exactly feel sorry for him, but I sympathised, because he was still the 8/100 guy, gentle and horribly out of his depth and struggling. And if his first cause was his own safety, at least the guilt and the fear was always there, and I could see it under the surface. It's always about Gaius Baltar. But at least what Gaius Baltar wants is usually fairly benign.
Then we get to season four and what Gaius Baltar wants isn't benign at all. And Gaius Baltar has his own frakking cult and his ego is exploding and now, well now, my friends, the guilt is gone.
In an episode where Laura Roslin, who has done nothing but kill herself trying to save humanity, in an episode where Laura Roslin learns to feel the weight of the things she's done and the things she is willing to do, Gaius Baltar who killed most of humanity trying to elevate himself, professes that he doesn't need to feel any guilt.
Now, let's examine my view on guilt for a moment. Because my conviction that all this episode proved is that Baltar cannot - can never be a messiah - not because anyone is above forgiveness but because Baltar has never asked for forgiveness or understood what he was being forgiven for - my conviction on that point has nothing to do with revenge thinking or punitive measures or justice.
I mean, as a separate issue, justice is important, but setting that aside for a moment. Because mercy and forgiveness aren't easy concepts and if they were, they wouldn't be worth a damn. Mercy is never earned, it can't be. If it's earned or deserved, it's not mercy, it's justice. But you have to know to ask for it. You have to understand what's been given to you.
I don't think Baltar does.
Now, in many ways, guilt is a profoundly useless emotion. Sure, it works as a great motivating force - a barometer for empathy, maybe. It lets you know when you've done something that you need to correct or apologise for, both of which are important mechanisms in any society. But the lifespan of guilt's usefulness is very short. Mostly, in my experience, we feel guilty for things we shouldn't or try to avoid the guilt we deserve. And it lingers crippling us. There's a social taboo about putting guilt behind us and moving forwards (and it's one I share: I feel guilty about bloody everything sometimes), because we fear it makes us bad, uncaring people. But an inability to put it behind us and move on renders us profoundly useless, and even sabotages our attempts to fix the very thing we feel guilty about.
In short, guilt is a shortcut to being emotacular.
So I'm all for learning how to jettison guilt. And to an extent, what the fuck can Baltar do? He really only has two choices. 1) Feel guilty and go insane. 2) Try to move on. (I don't include submit to the justice of the people because in terms of his mental state, even while on trial, he'll have to be in mindset one or two).
The problem is, he's taken option 2 without LEARNING ANYTHING.
It was his fault in a very literal way. His character flaw. His mistake.
His confession is a patronising explanation about how you shouldn't actually be angry that it was his fault everyone you ever loved, every plan you ever had for your future, every chance you had to be something other than a starving, dirty refugee three seconds from death from a dozen causes, is gone. Because he has the answers.
It's not about exonorating the Cylon, or pinning the entire attack on Baltar.
It's about the fact that Baltar didn't even apologise.
The tiniest, most miniscule thing he could have done. Express remorse. Apologise that he had a fault, and that fault lead to the end of everything.
And Roslin.
Oh, how I love that woman. We'll get to her various revelations about love shortly, but for now, let's talk about Baltar and her scene with him dying.
That was a scene that deserves every award that can possibly be pinned on it. We forget about the horrors of the attacks. We see the 9/11 wall, we see the grind of the Fleet, but this is television, and this is the status quo, and we forget the visceral loss until someone like Mary McDonnell acts it for us without ever saying a word.
70% of the reason why Baltar's confession came off as horrifying, rather than simply ludicrous, was down to Mary McDonell sat in the background, so grief-stricken, I lack the words to even describe what she was doing. It was the scene where Baltar's human decency fell from eight to one, perhaps to zero.
The intensity of that scene is utterly indescribable, but to try, in Roslin's face I saw sheer incoherent rage; anger so intense it can only be expressed in hopelessness and sorrow. Everything she's been through, every time she broke herself and lost a part of herself and denied herself and stole babies and hearts and souls and lives, and threw people out of airlocks, and watched good people die and young people die, and made decisions to abandon children to death, and split the Fleet, and lead her people onto a path she half believed was inspired by insanity - here is a man telling her it was all him.
Every day, Laura Roslin gets up, and takes personal responsibility for the survival of her entire species. And if she fails, the buck stops with her. She has never shied from that. Taking responsibility is what Laura Roslin does.
And it makes her an infinitely better human than Gaius Baltar, who has never once taken responsibility for anything in his life if it wasn't the responsibility-equivalent of a backhanded compliment.
And then she saves his life. Because Laura Roslin has airlocked a cylon but she's never killed anyone out of spite, or revenge, or fear. Because that is Laura Roslin's other gift: self-examination. Acceptance. Responsibility for who she is. It gets faded this season especially, but it's there. She listens to Tyrol about his union complaints. She lets Natalie talk to the quorum.
It's when it's hardest to recognise that someone has an inalienable right to draw their next breath that it's most important. It's a maxim that should perhaps be applied to the cylon, but let's keep it on Baltar for now. She might be wrong, but Laura has her reasons for drawing her lines where she does, and this is about why she's a better being than Baltar, not whether or not she's big enough to forgive genocide.
Laura Roslin at her most tyrannical is a better person than Gaius Baltar at his best. His gentleness has been lost, somewhere. Now he's the bitter, selfish, snotty kid who will try to convert a centurion the way an asshole pokes an angry dog to see if he can get it to bite someone. He's bought his own propaganda and instead of releasing his guilt as a way to become a better person, he's used it as carte blanch to never change one damn thing about himself.
Laura Roslin saves the person she hates most in the universe. And she cries, and she begs him not to die. Because she is a good person. And because Baltar has an inalienable right to draw his next breath.
Gaius Baltar talks Boomer into a suicide attempt and chokes the dark-haired Six on the infected baseship to death because he feels threatened. On a more metaphorical level, Baltar soothes his own ego by landing on a planet and colonising when he KNOWS there are cylon agents in the Fleet for a fact.
The point is, people die so things are easier for Gaius Baltar. Gaius lives even though it'll make things harder for Laura Roslin.
To talk about her actual issues this episode, I'm obviously not thrilled that she's all I LOOOOVE YOU to Bill, but whatever, I can deal. I honestly don't think her soul was in need of saving. I think she's isolated, sure, though I'd say it seemed to me Bill was being more obsinate about admitting his feelings than she was earlier this season. I think that actually, if anything demonstrates her coldness it's how she treats Lee given his role in the trial given how quick she was to forgive Adama even though he actually voted for Baltar's innocence. I guess I feel that she never went past any point of no return, because this episode happened, and she thought about it, and she stopped herself and corrected herself. Because Laura Roslin understands that guilt is a luxury and what you do with it is: you learn and you get rid of it. She learned.
I suppose I feel that this is less the episode where Laura Roslin saved her soul, and more the episode where she proved she wasn't in need of saving. Crunchtime, and she's still a hero. And actually, while I'd love her no matter what shit she was pulling, I am...profoundly moved and grateful by the fact the show stood up and said, "This is Laura. She is good, and she loves, and she saves lives and she is a hero."
I have no idea why Kara was there. I mean, I love that she was, because I think the Laura and Kara dynamic is fabulously weirdly complicated and it is criminally underincluded in the series. But it's weirdly interesting that Kara is someone that Laura thinks of subconsciously as family. I think a lot of that is probably because of her connection with Lee and Adama, but I do also wonder if it's the fact that they are both the theological poles around which this entire show revolves. I'm not sure, either way.
Also, I have worked out why she now has a HeadElosha. Who I hope is not going to disappear since she appeared outside a jump, but fear will just vanish.
But anyway, I worked it out. Romo's cat, Kara's return, the Opera House visions, Caprica's pregnancy, ALL OF IT.
It's like Dark City. You think it's night because it's noir, but no, it's literally always night. We think these things are inexplicable (at least the the Head!People, and perhaps some of the specifics of Kara's return) because they're stylistic cinematographic choices and because RDM is fond of saying, "Eh, we have no idea what that meant, but it seemed fun!" But hey, maybe they do mean something. Maybe they are literal.
Reality is falling apart.
Now, 90% convinced this is not true, but it really was like, the first thing that I thought of while watching this episode. "Oh, so either Laura is insane, or reality is actually falling apart. Hmm, the first one is awesome, but not as awesome as the second one."
I mean, maybe there's a reason this is happening during the jumps, between times, during a rip in reality. Or we could blame chamalla if she's still on it. Though what does that do except expand one's reality, and let human Oracles speak like Leoben on steroids? It's all the same stuff.
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again. Time is already circular. That's already a leap of faith in terms of reality as we understand it. Perhaps at the crescendo of this cycle, everything starts falling apart to evolve into something unexpected - a leap forwards and sideways and up. Evolution.
It starts small, with a single Head!Six and a single Cybrid. But now we have miraculous resurrections and cylon/cylon babies and an increasing number of vivid hallucinations from Adama remembering his wife to Romo's cat to Roslin and Elosha.
Reality. It's breaking down.
Or at least, maybe all these head!people are going to be more than just a stylistic decision and we'll get Dark City'd somehow.
Or then again, maybe not. ;)
Also, cus I didn't get a chance to say it anywhere, AHAHAHAHA! THREE! YOU SLAY ME.
But I'm a little disappointed that you said that to Laura because now that there's a fake-out it's unlikely to be actually true and that makes me sad. :(
I tried to cut this down, I promise, I did. I can't. It hit me in the gut. So the first part is longer than sanity, and please, feel free to just read the above sentence then skip down to "Reality", which is where I get crack!serious.
It's strange. Throughout season one, I liked Baltar. I mean, I personally liked him on some weird level. I felt bad for him. Sure I thought he was dangerous because of his own selfishness, his own weakness and his narcissism. Sure I thought he screwed up so badly he caused the destruction of nearly everyone alive in the galaxy. And I loved how that was juxtaposed with the fact that Baltar is (was) such a gentle person. A spoiled child, sure, but the gentleness and the fear, and the guilt. Because the guilt was there. Every time it reared its head, he ran from it, coming up with a dozen excuses about how really, really, it wasn't him, but he never succeeded. Never exorcised it. We kept watching him screw up, try to walk that line between keeping Gaius Baltar safe and Not Screwing Over Humanity. Such a tiny measure of decency, but you have to start somewhere. And on a human decency scale of one to one-hundred, Baltar was always, at least, an eight.
Even in season three, after the disaster of New Caprica, I believed he did the best he could. It was a crappy best, but he was trying. He was scoring 8/100; maybe even 12/100 when he did things like refuse to sign the death sentences until they shot his girlfriend and threatened to shoot him. He was stuck on a baseship, threatened with death, threatened with love, hell, got tortured. I didn't exactly feel sorry for him, but I sympathised, because he was still the 8/100 guy, gentle and horribly out of his depth and struggling. And if his first cause was his own safety, at least the guilt and the fear was always there, and I could see it under the surface. It's always about Gaius Baltar. But at least what Gaius Baltar wants is usually fairly benign.
Then we get to season four and what Gaius Baltar wants isn't benign at all. And Gaius Baltar has his own frakking cult and his ego is exploding and now, well now, my friends, the guilt is gone.
In an episode where Laura Roslin, who has done nothing but kill herself trying to save humanity, in an episode where Laura Roslin learns to feel the weight of the things she's done and the things she is willing to do, Gaius Baltar who killed most of humanity trying to elevate himself, professes that he doesn't need to feel any guilt.
Now, let's examine my view on guilt for a moment. Because my conviction that all this episode proved is that Baltar cannot - can never be a messiah - not because anyone is above forgiveness but because Baltar has never asked for forgiveness or understood what he was being forgiven for - my conviction on that point has nothing to do with revenge thinking or punitive measures or justice.
I mean, as a separate issue, justice is important, but setting that aside for a moment. Because mercy and forgiveness aren't easy concepts and if they were, they wouldn't be worth a damn. Mercy is never earned, it can't be. If it's earned or deserved, it's not mercy, it's justice. But you have to know to ask for it. You have to understand what's been given to you.
I don't think Baltar does.
Now, in many ways, guilt is a profoundly useless emotion. Sure, it works as a great motivating force - a barometer for empathy, maybe. It lets you know when you've done something that you need to correct or apologise for, both of which are important mechanisms in any society. But the lifespan of guilt's usefulness is very short. Mostly, in my experience, we feel guilty for things we shouldn't or try to avoid the guilt we deserve. And it lingers crippling us. There's a social taboo about putting guilt behind us and moving forwards (and it's one I share: I feel guilty about bloody everything sometimes), because we fear it makes us bad, uncaring people. But an inability to put it behind us and move on renders us profoundly useless, and even sabotages our attempts to fix the very thing we feel guilty about.
In short, guilt is a shortcut to being emotacular.
So I'm all for learning how to jettison guilt. And to an extent, what the fuck can Baltar do? He really only has two choices. 1) Feel guilty and go insane. 2) Try to move on. (I don't include submit to the justice of the people because in terms of his mental state, even while on trial, he'll have to be in mindset one or two).
The problem is, he's taken option 2 without LEARNING ANYTHING.
It was his fault in a very literal way. His character flaw. His mistake.
His confession is a patronising explanation about how you shouldn't actually be angry that it was his fault everyone you ever loved, every plan you ever had for your future, every chance you had to be something other than a starving, dirty refugee three seconds from death from a dozen causes, is gone. Because he has the answers.
It's not about exonorating the Cylon, or pinning the entire attack on Baltar.
It's about the fact that Baltar didn't even apologise.
The tiniest, most miniscule thing he could have done. Express remorse. Apologise that he had a fault, and that fault lead to the end of everything.
And Roslin.
Oh, how I love that woman. We'll get to her various revelations about love shortly, but for now, let's talk about Baltar and her scene with him dying.
That was a scene that deserves every award that can possibly be pinned on it. We forget about the horrors of the attacks. We see the 9/11 wall, we see the grind of the Fleet, but this is television, and this is the status quo, and we forget the visceral loss until someone like Mary McDonnell acts it for us without ever saying a word.
70% of the reason why Baltar's confession came off as horrifying, rather than simply ludicrous, was down to Mary McDonell sat in the background, so grief-stricken, I lack the words to even describe what she was doing. It was the scene where Baltar's human decency fell from eight to one, perhaps to zero.
The intensity of that scene is utterly indescribable, but to try, in Roslin's face I saw sheer incoherent rage; anger so intense it can only be expressed in hopelessness and sorrow. Everything she's been through, every time she broke herself and lost a part of herself and denied herself and stole babies and hearts and souls and lives, and threw people out of airlocks, and watched good people die and young people die, and made decisions to abandon children to death, and split the Fleet, and lead her people onto a path she half believed was inspired by insanity - here is a man telling her it was all him.
Every day, Laura Roslin gets up, and takes personal responsibility for the survival of her entire species. And if she fails, the buck stops with her. She has never shied from that. Taking responsibility is what Laura Roslin does.
And it makes her an infinitely better human than Gaius Baltar, who has never once taken responsibility for anything in his life if it wasn't the responsibility-equivalent of a backhanded compliment.
And then she saves his life. Because Laura Roslin has airlocked a cylon but she's never killed anyone out of spite, or revenge, or fear. Because that is Laura Roslin's other gift: self-examination. Acceptance. Responsibility for who she is. It gets faded this season especially, but it's there. She listens to Tyrol about his union complaints. She lets Natalie talk to the quorum.
It's when it's hardest to recognise that someone has an inalienable right to draw their next breath that it's most important. It's a maxim that should perhaps be applied to the cylon, but let's keep it on Baltar for now. She might be wrong, but Laura has her reasons for drawing her lines where she does, and this is about why she's a better being than Baltar, not whether or not she's big enough to forgive genocide.
Laura Roslin at her most tyrannical is a better person than Gaius Baltar at his best. His gentleness has been lost, somewhere. Now he's the bitter, selfish, snotty kid who will try to convert a centurion the way an asshole pokes an angry dog to see if he can get it to bite someone. He's bought his own propaganda and instead of releasing his guilt as a way to become a better person, he's used it as carte blanch to never change one damn thing about himself.
Laura Roslin saves the person she hates most in the universe. And she cries, and she begs him not to die. Because she is a good person. And because Baltar has an inalienable right to draw his next breath.
Gaius Baltar talks Boomer into a suicide attempt and chokes the dark-haired Six on the infected baseship to death because he feels threatened. On a more metaphorical level, Baltar soothes his own ego by landing on a planet and colonising when he KNOWS there are cylon agents in the Fleet for a fact.
The point is, people die so things are easier for Gaius Baltar. Gaius lives even though it'll make things harder for Laura Roslin.
To talk about her actual issues this episode, I'm obviously not thrilled that she's all I LOOOOVE YOU to Bill, but whatever, I can deal. I honestly don't think her soul was in need of saving. I think she's isolated, sure, though I'd say it seemed to me Bill was being more obsinate about admitting his feelings than she was earlier this season. I think that actually, if anything demonstrates her coldness it's how she treats Lee given his role in the trial given how quick she was to forgive Adama even though he actually voted for Baltar's innocence. I guess I feel that she never went past any point of no return, because this episode happened, and she thought about it, and she stopped herself and corrected herself. Because Laura Roslin understands that guilt is a luxury and what you do with it is: you learn and you get rid of it. She learned.
I suppose I feel that this is less the episode where Laura Roslin saved her soul, and more the episode where she proved she wasn't in need of saving. Crunchtime, and she's still a hero. And actually, while I'd love her no matter what shit she was pulling, I am...profoundly moved and grateful by the fact the show stood up and said, "This is Laura. She is good, and she loves, and she saves lives and she is a hero."
I have no idea why Kara was there. I mean, I love that she was, because I think the Laura and Kara dynamic is fabulously weirdly complicated and it is criminally underincluded in the series. But it's weirdly interesting that Kara is someone that Laura thinks of subconsciously as family. I think a lot of that is probably because of her connection with Lee and Adama, but I do also wonder if it's the fact that they are both the theological poles around which this entire show revolves. I'm not sure, either way.
Also, I have worked out why she now has a HeadElosha. Who I hope is not going to disappear since she appeared outside a jump, but fear will just vanish.
But anyway, I worked it out. Romo's cat, Kara's return, the Opera House visions, Caprica's pregnancy, ALL OF IT.
It's like Dark City. You think it's night because it's noir, but no, it's literally always night. We think these things are inexplicable (at least the the Head!People, and perhaps some of the specifics of Kara's return) because they're stylistic cinematographic choices and because RDM is fond of saying, "Eh, we have no idea what that meant, but it seemed fun!" But hey, maybe they do mean something. Maybe they are literal.
Reality is falling apart.
Now, 90% convinced this is not true, but it really was like, the first thing that I thought of while watching this episode. "Oh, so either Laura is insane, or reality is actually falling apart. Hmm, the first one is awesome, but not as awesome as the second one."
I mean, maybe there's a reason this is happening during the jumps, between times, during a rip in reality. Or we could blame chamalla if she's still on it. Though what does that do except expand one's reality, and let human Oracles speak like Leoben on steroids? It's all the same stuff.
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again. Time is already circular. That's already a leap of faith in terms of reality as we understand it. Perhaps at the crescendo of this cycle, everything starts falling apart to evolve into something unexpected - a leap forwards and sideways and up. Evolution.
It starts small, with a single Head!Six and a single Cybrid. But now we have miraculous resurrections and cylon/cylon babies and an increasing number of vivid hallucinations from Adama remembering his wife to Romo's cat to Roslin and Elosha.
Reality. It's breaking down.
Or at least, maybe all these head!people are going to be more than just a stylistic decision and we'll get Dark City'd somehow.
Or then again, maybe not. ;)
Also, cus I didn't get a chance to say it anywhere, AHAHAHAHA! THREE! YOU SLAY ME.
But I'm a little disappointed that you said that to Laura because now that there's a fake-out it's unlikely to be actually true and that makes me sad. :(
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no subject
Date: 2008-06-08 08:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 05:58 pm (UTC)Though I have to admit, I'm not aware of anything to do with S4 Angel. I sort of bailed on that show near the start of S3, though I hear it got good near the end again?
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 07:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-10 08:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 09:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-10 08:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 01:30 am (UTC)And I find this absolutely as reprehensible an idea as Laura does, and I feel like surely, like you say, this is the writers showing us that Baltar and his theology is bad and wrong, that instead we have Laura and her sense of responsibility and her choices of mercy and of love. About 90+% of me is sure that's the way we're meant to read this. And yet...destiny, the cycle of time, all this has happened before and has happened again. All of this has been so foregrounded throughout the show, and all Baltar is doing here is taking this idea to its logical conclusion. So suffice it to say that I'm very interested to see what they're going to do with the question of destiny and the question of choice. If you give up destiny, that nullifies so much of what especially Kara and Laura have been about; if you give up choice, then logically, Baltar is right. There will, I suppose, be some middle ground or some ambiguity, but I can't quite see yet what it may be.
(Unless you're right and reality is disintegrating--the very fabric of the way time works. What if people start choosing things not their destiny? Can they do that? The Cylons have chosen to die, after all. The idea is just this side of completely cracked out, I know, but you could be right, and if so, so am I because I wrote a fic about the end of cyclical time. And that story has ended up being kind of uncannily prescient, though I figured the end of time itself was going a bit further than I could actually expect the show to go!)
And I must admit that the Adama/Roslin shipper in me enjoyed that aspect of the episode, but I would not have enjoyed it had I felt like it was just about Laura loving Bill. I had been spoiled for the final scene, unfortunately, and I was really, really skeptical. I'm a little allergic to "I love you"--it's so overused to the point of being almost banal--and before this episode I couldn't imagine Laura being in a position to say it to anyone, including Bill. But in context it read more as metonymic for Laura's wider epiphany here: to embrace people, to love someone--anyone, really, and hopefully the presence of Lee and Kara in her vision will encourage her to reach out to them, as well--and be loved in return, to start to think about this aspect of what makes them worthy of survival rather than just about the numbers of survivors. And at least to me--shipper bias fully acknowledged--the Laura/Bill aspects of the episode seemed to dovetail alongside what was going on with Laura and Baltar in order to speak to this larger theme of the state of Laura's soul.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 06:20 pm (UTC)Aha! Yes, that is an excellent statement. I think perhaps that's what I was getting at (inartfully) when I spoke about Baltar's inability to understand what he was being forgiven for, or how to ask for it. What Baltar wants is to never have been the bad guy in the first place: to never have sinned, to be told, "it's okay, you didn't do anything wrong," not "you did something wrong, but I forgive you and permit you to move on." But he co-opts the language of forgiveness because no religious person worth their salt could deny the validity of divine grace as a concept.
Though regarding the nature of free will and circular time, my personal take is that circular time is broad. "The players change, the story remains the same." However, there is something to be said for a "destiny" and whether it renders your choices invalid. I guess my thoughts on it can be summed up as follows:
1) Nothing swoops into your head and magically makes your decisions. Even if it's pre-ordained, it's still you. Every moment in your life builds to form the complete individual you are who will make this decision, here and now. Perhaps the best example of this is Kara in Maelstrom where everything that ever happened to her built until she chose to commit religious suicide. Maybe she was pre-ordained to fly into that Maelstrom, but she still chose to do it.
2) But isn't that no choice at all? I suppose to me, it makes it even more important to own those choices and to be yourself. If we cannot control what we do then all we can control is who we are. Kara will fly into that Maelstrom, regardless. Every time. But whether she does so at peace and with love, or angry and afraid, there is her choice.
And now we have a tangent, sorry! But it's a topic I find fascinating, and originally my point was supposed to be, even if Baltar was pre-ordained to start that Flood, he does get to choose how he handles that, how he behaves in the aftermath. And I think that's part of why what I find most repugnant isn't that he did it, it's his choice to behave this way about it now?
Um, basically, I'm agreeing with you, is what I think I'm trying to say!
And I agree, I'm 90% certain this is how we're supposed to be reading it, but that 10% scares me more than I want to admit...
Also, OMG! You wrote broken!reality!fic! I feel absurdly happy that you did that because it makes me think that there might actually be something to this! Someone else had a similar idea TOO! I mean, again, I'm pretty convinced it's not a literal breakdown of reality (cool as I'd find that), but I do like your idea that circular time is finally ending. Or at least that there's something Dark City-ish going on here...
And thank you for the suggestion that I view the "I love you" as an expansive, metaphorical, sweeping statement. An affirmation of her new attitude. I like that. I mean, I know that she was also just saying it to Bill cus she loves him, but...I like it more if her widespread epiphanies aren't actually just reduced to being All About Adama... Though I still dislike his response. Partly this is probably cus I'm not an A/R shipper, but he finally made like he was actually going to start changing and instead it all gets handed to him on a silver platter because he stood there and asked for it. GRR!
At any rate, it was a much better "President Roslin Dying And Having Epiphanies," episode than either Epiphanies or Faith. So yay! :D
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Date: 2008-06-09 07:15 pm (UTC)And I wasn't thinking of it as broken reality fic so much at the time, and it doesn't deal in chaos quite in the way that it probably would had I been thinking of it as such, but yes, it definitely proposes that we're not just talking about the beginning of a new cycle here but the end of this entire way of thinking about time and the beginning of something new. Eschatos, should you be interested (though please don't feel obligated to be interested!). I feel like it's pretty much a gen character study of Laura (with key roles played by Caprica, Sharon, and Kara), but I will warn you that there's Laura/Bill in the background. No more than season 4 canon (less than most recent canon, really), and it's not what the story is about, but it is there. But like I said, don't feel obligated to be interested!
And I also really didn't like what Asta and others are calling Bill's "Han Solo moment" at the end. Because Bill has utterly no leg to stand on with his whole stupid "it's about time" thing. My generous reading of this is that it's about time for them both, but I do acknowledge that requires lots of squinting and looking at the TV sideways. It's so typically asshole Bill, though, which I find 80% annoying after his supposed growth last week and 20% comforting because oh Bill, you're such a selfish bastard, and I should really hate you, yet somehow I don't. As I told Asta, I'd have liked a mirror of the first line: he says "missed you," and she says "me, too"; then she says "love you," and he says "me, too." Not only does that put them on even footing but it also acknowledges their dual realization. Ah well!
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Date: 2008-06-10 08:42 pm (UTC)Yeah, that's it exactly. Stuff like this (much more than the end of that episode where he was ranting about how he was 'perfect') makes me think that they must know, but...I am not coping well with the waiting...
Thanks for the link to Eschatos. I may well check it out at some point; I'm not a big fic reader, but I do like to check out stories that pique my interest like this one. And don't worry about the B/L in the background. I'm not...I don't think it's invalid, it's just not my preference. And at times in the show I'm...irked by how it's handled because I dislike what I think is a blind spot RDM and the writers have for Adama's flaws as a character, but it's not an inherent dislike of him. I mean, I actually came into the series as a B/L shipper and didn't jump 'ship until the end of season one, early season two, so I clearly do think there's something to that dynamic that's worth exploring. ;)
I also really like your idea for mirrored lines, and think that I'm going to adopt your idea that he was speaking about both of them, just to keep my sanity levels static!
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Date: 2008-06-11 12:09 am (UTC)I'm the kind of Adama/Roslin shipper who likes them best when they're messy and difficult and having all sorts of interaction that has nothing to do with romance. I like the idea that these two people were not fated to be together, and in another situation probably wouldn't have given each other a second glance, but in this world they've come to rely on each other and in doing so have slowly come to love each other. That angle, almost an arranged marriage, I find fascinating.
But the crazy hearts and flowers true love 4-evah Adama/Roslin people? Those are not my people! ;)
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Date: 2008-06-11 09:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 01:59 pm (UTC)Erm...
I'm not sure that's a direction my brain can go, even in a thoroughly disturbed way! While I fully admit that the paint!sex scene in "Maelstrom" was kind of the hottest thing ever, Kara/Leoben freaks me the hell out. Well, Leoben generally freaks me the hell out. I do not understand the attraction that so many people seem to have because my reaction when he comes on the screen is goose-pimples and "get away! get away, you scary, scary man!!!" And this dates back to "Flesh and Bone" and was only exacerbated by New Caprica.
I'd definitely considered that Laura was actively and perhaps cynically cultivating Bill's crush on her because it was useful and expedient
Oh, quite possibly yes. I think this kind of reading definitely works, particularly up to a certain point. But whatever her initial motivations, somewhere along the way, whether she wanted to or not, she seems to have grown to like him--for reasons that I admit are still hard for me to wrap my head around entirely. But she sees his flaws and for some reason wants him around anyway, and I suppose that's what a relationship--of whatever kind--is ultimately about. I still think, even with the declarations of love, that she could shut him out if she felt she needed to (whereas he could not do the same to her, I think--not in any kind of lasting way, anyway).
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Date: 2008-06-12 07:10 pm (UTC)I think that's what I was trying to get at - it's not a very "hearts and flowers" show?
Though I have to admit, I have...such a crush on Callum Keith Rennie. I mean, sure, Tahmoh Pennikett and Jamie Bamber are pretty and all; heck Lee is half of my BSG OTP! But...personally, neither of them really do that much for me. Not in the way that CKR just...kicks me in the back of the head and yells SEX.
I am, however, at a loss to explain precisely why this is. o.O
But whatever her initial motivations, somewhere along the way, whether she wanted to or not, she seems to have grown to like him--for reasons that I admit are still hard for me to wrap my head around entirely.
Yeah, it might not make sense to me, but I certainly can't deny that's what happened.
Though you know what, it's actually Adama coming around to Roslin that was slightly more surprising to me. I remember when she was That Woman. Though his change of heart has been fairly organic.
Roslin, though, I think she never really held things against Bill particularly personally. She was pissed at him when he pulled crap like Starbuck's massive rescue mission in S1, but there was never a personal enmity there. I got the impression that she viewed him as a reassuring, if frustrating, constant. I just never got the impression (at least earlier on, and still in my own headspace) that that extended to attraction.
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Date: 2008-06-13 05:19 pm (UTC)Heh! Apparently this is a fairly common phenomenon, so I must be the one missing something. Probably if I had a wider context than just Leoben to put him in, that would help. But I haven't seen any of his other work, and his physical attractiveness can only go so far with me in a character like Leoben. Because, um, really fucking creepy!!!!!
I do agree, though, that while both Tahmoh Pennikett and Jamie Bamber are pretty, neither of them really does it for me, either. Actually, I think I've got to go with Michael Trucco if we're playing this game: less classically pretty but still damned hot, and Samuel T. Anders is totally my Cylon boyfriend.
/shallow
The different responses you note about Bill and Laura are, I think, perfectly in character. He at first dislikes her personally, even though more properly what he should have disliked were her actions or her position, but everything is personal for Bill. And then when he comes around, he comes around to her personally. Whereas she doesn't make things personal, generally, unless it's Baltar, and even there although she hates him, personally, the reason for it has more to do with their larger roles and responsibilities rather than anything he did to her as a person.
Your comment about Laura's attraction or lack thereof to Bill gave me pause, though, because to be honest, as much thought as I've given to the development of their relationship (which, uh, is rather a lot of thought, I must confess), I'm not sure I'd really thought about the attraction angle of it. And I'm still not sure I've sorted my thoughts on the subject, but I did open it up for discussion in my journal here, and it's generating some interesting responses (particularly the conversation with
Although as I link that I realize it's a locked post because it also contains various sorts of non-fannish material that I usually keep flocked. I've been thinking of adding your journal anyway, though, because I do always enjoy your posts and it would be easier to have them on the flist rather than coming over separately. So I shall do so now. Feel free to friend back or not as you prefer. :)
also...
Date: 2008-06-09 07:53 pm (UTC)One of the things I found interesting about Gaius's speech here is that he actually doesn't co-opt the language of forgiveness. He never talks about being redeemed, he never asks for forgiveness. He does talk about guilt, but this guilt is not forgiven or redeemed or absolved; it's "transformed." And transformation, while not unrelated to the language of grace and redemption, is something a little different, I think. In Gaius's mind, God did not say, "you committed this sin, but I forgive and redeem you because I love you"; instead, God said, "because I love you, this thing you did is not a sin but is transformed into something good or necessary or even rewarding." Transformation is this entirely outside force that helps Gaius absolve himself of any personal agency in the whole transaction. It's almost the language of forgiveness and grace, but there's a subtle difference, at least in my reading.
Re: also...
Date: 2008-06-10 08:48 pm (UTC)He's co-opting the concepts of mercy and forgiveness knowing that they're powerful ideas that resonate and that people feel uncomfortable denying, but you're absolutely right to notice the quite subtle fact that the actual language - the words "forgiven" or "absolved" are never used.
Re: also...
Date: 2008-06-11 12:12 am (UTC)The anvils are really bothering me, and perhaps all the more so when they demonstrate that they still know how to do subtle.
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Date: 2008-06-09 06:17 pm (UTC)Now on to my episoe thinkies :D
Laura and love: I'd just been thinking about posting more re: L/L or B/L etc because I had concluded that Laura was not a woman capable of loving someone truly unless they were her equal. Bill she might realize she loves, but only as one loves a pet because that's what he is. Lee - there is potential there. He has conviction, but I think Lee needs another decade under his belt to get rid of his naivety first before she would truly respect him. So ultimately, if I had to ship her with someone, it would be Cain. I can imagine the romantic nights of them discussing the merits of airlocking vs shooting people in the head, arguing over whose turn it is to walk Bill, the hot make up sex, and finally, the tumultuous break up that results when they both fall for D'Anna.
Bah I am being summoned by babies. More later as I have ponderances on this whole cylons love babies thing.
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Date: 2008-06-09 06:33 pm (UTC)Re: Laura and shipping, dude, that's the best argument against L/L I've ever heard, actually. I mean, obviously I don't want it to be true, I want to say, "But he has such conviction! She respects it!" But all that is rooted in the notion that she can see him as an equal because my entire philosophy of why she would be good for Lee is that she would love him for who he was, not because his surname was Adama. And...yeah. I can see her seeing such beautiful potential in him but thinking...he needs ten years to grow up. Because he does. Which makes it seem like I think he's a whiny emo teenager, and actually...that's rarely what I mean. He is upstanding, responsible, brave and capable. And if anything, far younger than his years.
Also I think you hit the nail on the head as to why I don't ship A/R (though I honestly do understand why others do: I even did at one point, early in the series). It's because yeah, Bill turned himself into a pet.
So ultimately, if I had to ship her with someone, it would be Cain. I can imagine the romantic nights of them discussing the merits of airlocking vs shooting people in the head, arguing over whose turn it is to walk Bill, the hot make up sex, and finally, the tumultuous break up that results when they both fall for D'Anna.
HAHAHAHAHAAA! Dude, that's just perfect.
I mean, as anything other than comedy, I have trouble with it, but only because Laura hated Cain so damn much because she was antithetical to all of Laura's goals. However, had Cain been slightly less "I will let the civilians BURN AND DIE," and slightly more, "Early Razor Cain," then yeah.
I mean, basically, you make a fabulous point that Cain is the only character in the series who is really Laura's equal in terms of guts, grit, power and conviction.
Though depending on what they do with her, Starbuck may give her a run for her money by the end of the series. I love what they're doing with Starbuck this season, I just hope she doesn't slide back into the background as a CAG again now...
Bah I am being summoned by babies. More later as I have ponderances on this whole cylons love babies thing.
YAY! I look forward to it! :D
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Date: 2008-06-09 07:57 pm (UTC)And it would have been ironic to make her the Fifth after all these humanizing episodes, but *comfort* I never thought she was a Cylon. I like the idea of her and Kara being more than that.
How much did I love Gaius this episode? Pompous preachy ass still, but seeing him try to work his usual magic on first the Hybrid and later the Centurion? Priceless.
Now, onto Cylons love making babies! See, the Six!baby thing made me think about their whole concept of "we discovered that love was the missing link in making babies." As far as I can tell, we have Cylon Males trying to impregnate Human females in The Farm, which failed. But then Athena became pregnant from a Human M. We know the FF Cylon Ms are in working order cuz they are making babies all over the place. But now we have a Cylon F pregnant ... is it because she loves Tigh? Or because Tigh is manly?
D'Anna: HOw much did I love her in this episode? First, the "shiney" comment about the Eights. Then killing Cavel. Then going along with the whole 'we're going to be mortal now' plan with a shrug as opposed to any kind of freak out resistance, and finally her little trick on Laura.
Pseudo-Athena: Oh you poor dear. You downloaded Athena's junk after her previous download and somehow completely missed the part where she downloaded because it was the only way to get Hera back after being denied by Laura and Bill who conspired to take her baby from her and you're all "Hey we're mortal now! We can trust each other?" Poor poor Pseudo-Athena.
Boomer: Does your hate for Galactica so encompass you that it's okay for Cavel to use you so clearly that he even refers to you as his pet? Poor poor Boomer.
Lee: He might not need 10 years if things with his presidency got to be really cool. If he was forced into a situation like his father, Laura or even Gaius has been in their roles as leaders, then he'd finally understand what Laura is trying to tell him about having the weight of their people on her shoulders. They have to make life or death decisions on behalf of these people and that's no easy thing to bear. Thing is, could Lee bear it? I think he could after his space floaties. He's perhaps learned to respect things a bit more. But it would take time for him to get over the guilt and use it, as you say. He used hte guilt of being the one to destroy that ship way back in season one to get Gaius an innocent charge. But what if Lee had to be the one to give the death order. Based on the preview of the next episode, it seems that he doesn't get that chance and instead has to help his father through such a situation.
Preview: WTFfinalepisodeuntil2009????????
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Date: 2008-06-10 02:05 am (UTC)Heh. I didn't even think about that. Good point. Or maybe she just accessed the files that told her what an awesome husband Helo was. ;)
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Date: 2008-06-10 08:57 pm (UTC)Yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying there, and it's nice to get some confirmation of it from someone who isn't quite as biased against B/L as I am.
Now, onto Cylons love making babies! See, the Six!baby thing made me think about their whole concept of "we discovered that love was the missing link in making babies." As far as I can tell, we have Cylon Males trying to impregnate Human females in The Farm, which failed. But then Athena became pregnant from a Human M. We know the FF Cylon Ms are in working order cuz they are making babies all over the place. But now we have a Cylon F pregnant ... is it because she loves Tigh? Or because Tigh is manly?
Honestly...I have no idea what's going on with the whole reproduction thing. I'm not convinced it's genderbased, though the idea that Tigh is just THAT MANLY is equal parts hilarious and EVILLY DISTURBED. Mainly I figure that from what we saw at The Farm we have no way of knowing if they were only trying to impregnate human women with male cylon sperm because if they were trying the reverse too, presumably the cylon women would be willing participants and the human men wouldn't need to be kept like, hooked up to machines since their participation is much more limited. o.O
Either way, I really hope that it gets explained at some point. At the moment I'm leaning towards the FF just reproducing exactly like humans for some reason.
Pseudo-Athena: Oh you poor dear. You downloaded Athena's junk after her previous download and somehow completely missed the part where she downloaded because it was the only way to get Hera back after being denied by Laura and Bill who conspired to take her baby from her and you're all "Hey we're mortal now! We can trust each other?" Poor poor Pseudo-Athena.
INDEED! Although perhaps she thought that Helo would pull one of his, "NO! I must go against my orders for it is WRONG," moves like he did when Roslin wanted to genocide them instead of turning around and, for once, obeying his sketchy orders. Still though, she seemed awfully naive. It also makes me think that it's...tragic really. Natalie made a conscious decision to risk this; knew what the outcome was likely to be, and paid the ultimate price. I don't think that Pseudo-Athena really understood that the way Natalie did.
But what if Lee had to be the one to give the death order. Based on the preview of the next episode, it seems that he doesn't get that chance and instead has to help his father through such a situation.
Hmm, I'm not sure - Lee is there in the preview as well as his father. I think it'll be really interesting to see who it is that makes the call...
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Date: 2008-06-10 10:04 pm (UTC)In the preview, Lee is consoling his dad who is clearly having a bad hair day and crying "I sent all those people to die." So Lee only gets to be president for all of two days so I don't think he gets to make any humanity changing decisions. Presumeably he'll get to take the reigns when Laura passes on.
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Date: 2008-06-10 02:02 am (UTC)I totally get what you are saying. It's one of the things that struck in in 'Sine Qua Non' - even without Romo telling me. Lee has seen so much and been through so much, yet he still retains the idealism he had when he stepped foot on Galactica. Not to say he's naive and envisions a shiny happy future for humanity, but he has this belief that humanity can still be all the things he wants them to be. However, I do believe that views will yet be tarnished before the series comes to a close.
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Date: 2008-06-10 09:02 pm (UTC)I actually hope you're wrong on that for two reasons -
1) I don't think that the writers write angsty!jaded!Lee anywhere near as well as they write stubbornly!idealistic!Lee.
2) I kind of want his journey to be different to Laura's. She's the one who co-opted her soul, her ethics, her personality to become harder and make the evil choices. It's not that Lee won't have to face these, or that it won't take a toll on him. But what I hope is that he inverts Roslin's path, where every time she had to slice a part of herself off, write it on a piece of paper and keep it in her pocket because she couldn't afford to keep it as a part of who she was. I hope that Lee's response is to hold onto those parts all the more desperately, despite how much it hurts. To refuse to give up his idealism even in the face of the most horrifically pragmatic decisions.
I mean, he will never entirely succeed and in that, I think you are right that something of him will be tarnished. But I hope the focus is on him...fighting for something better the whole time? On the idealism he manages to keep, not the idealism he's forced to jettison?
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Date: 2008-06-10 01:54 am (UTC)Not that I’m disagreeing with, but aren’t you setting the ball pretty low for Laura? I mean, it would be hard to find people in the fleet not better than Baltar. ;p
He was scoring 8/100; maybe even 12/100 when he did things like refuse to sign the death sentences until they shot his girlfriend and threatened to shoot him.
And if Baltar was truly evil, he would have just signed the death order when asked. The fact that he fought them, even briefly, proved he still had a conscience.
because he was still the 8/100 guy, gentle and horribly out of his depth and struggling.
We, and by that I not only mean you and I, but fandom, have talked about Laura being handed the presidency or Lee being placed in a command position and how both found themselves in situations they never expected to be in. And when they made errors in judgment or questionable calls they should be forgiven because they never had the expectation to have to deal with what they've had to deal with. I don’t think we really stop to consider that Baltar was nothing more than a scientist and celebrity whose greatest aspiration was to bed super models or at least women that looked like them. ;) His life is saved only because Helo is willing to sacrifice his, then he's thrust into a position of having to help save the remnants of humanity after causing humanity to be decimated. Much better people than he, like those I’ve mentioned, have struggled. While I don’t think we should necessarily cut the guy slack because he has continued to make selfish decisions since his, however unintentional, lapse in judgment on Caprica, maybe we shouldn’t forget he’s only human.
The point is, people die so things are easier for Gaius Baltar. Gaius lives even though it'll make things harder for Laura Roslin.
If the situation was reversed, by that I mean, the truth had been revealed and Laura was the one badly injured, would Baltar have saved Laura? I don't think so. He'd want to save himself and probably claim it was god's desire. He did ‘cure’ her of her cancer once before and he claims to have saved her, again, on New Caprica. But in both situations, he benefited in some way. On New Caprica, he knew the situation was doomed and I think he convinced himself that if, by some miracle, they escaped then he’d need allies and if he saved Laura she’d, in turn, save him. Ironically, it turns out he was right.
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Date: 2008-06-10 09:16 pm (UTC)Haha! Yes, okay good point. ;) I suppose to give it a serious answer, I'm reacting against the notion that Baltar's S4 "redemption" is worth a damn, or that Laura Roslin is really becoming at all despicable? I'm trying to demonstrate just how far apart they are that they are incomparable (despite the fact that I'm doing that by comparing them... D'oh!) And I suppose I also would have believed at certain points in season 2 when Laura was being extremely brutal re: ordering Athena to have an abortion and all sorts and throwing away her humanity because she was about to die, while Baltar was desperately trying to save Gina, that in the end, Baltar might have become, in some twisted way, eventually, a force for more heroism than Roslin? But now...no. Never.
While I don’t think we should necessarily cut the guy slack because he has continued to make selfish decisions since his, however unintentional, lapse in judgment on Caprica, maybe we shouldn’t forget he’s only human.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why I always sort of...liked the guy or at least empathised with him to a degree throughout the first three seasons. Even his most destructive, manipulative act - settling New Caprica - was essentially something he was manipulated into. He only ever used to react, never act.
I think "only human" was something that saved him from being despicable for a really long time, and that's why it's only now, when he's causing chaos and destruction and being disrespectful purely out of himself, when there isn't a wider set of circumstances we can blame, that I...think okay, here's your core, Baltar, and it's rotten.
If the situation was reversed, by that I mean, the truth had been revealed and Laura was the one badly injured, would Baltar have saved Laura? I don't think so.
YES! That's a much better way to phrase it.
He would have felt awful while he was watching her die; and probably Head!Six would have showed up and told him some tale of God's Will to make him feel better, but he would have done it.
I'm even willing to be more charitable than you and say he would have saved her life in Epiphanies and on New Caprica regardless of whether there was something in it for him simply because Baltar doesn't want to be a villain. Basically he'll do the right thing (pre-S4 at least: now he has his own awful agenda), as long as it doesn't actually cost him anything. And that was always the tiny measure of decency that sort of...saved him. But as soon as doing the Right Thing causes any threat to him, then he makes the selfish choice.
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Date: 2008-06-11 12:20 am (UTC)With the not guilty verdict at the trial, Baltar was a free man for the first time in a long time. He may not have had a clean slate, but he did have the opportunity for a fresh start. He'd never be trusted by Laura again, but, as a scientist, there was so much he could have done to help the fleet. I even gave him credit for being horrified by his initial encounters with his wanna-be followers. But it took, what? a day or so? for him to fall back into bad habits and selfish behavior. And, your right, he doesn't have outside forces any longer putting him in situations where he feels he has no choice but to capitulate or die. His followers are scary, but not in the sense that they are pointing a gun to his head as the Cylons did. Baltar, unlike so many others, has had second, third, and forth chances and he just continues to fall back to his selfish impulses. I use to think he'd take the chance to be redeemed if he saw the opportunity, but now it seems unlikely.
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Date: 2008-06-12 01:48 pm (UTC)This is a good point. Though I suspect the reason fandom generally may overlook it has much to do with Baltar's own approach to himself and his position, particularly as compared with Roslin or Lee's respective approaches to theirs. Whereas Laura (at least at the beginning, and I think even still, though in different ways) and Lee are both a little awed and humbled by the situations they didn't expect and treat their responsibilities with respect, Baltar's narcissism gives a sense of entitlement to everything he does. While we can see Baltar as "only human," I'm not sure he has ever honestly thought of himself that way: he's a special human, he believes, more worthy and more important than other people. It's hard not to hold people to their own standards, even when it's clear their standards are somewhat delusional!
Damn, I hate the character limit on comments!
Date: 2008-06-10 01:54 am (UTC)Well, you already know I’m on the same page with you when it comes to Bill and Laura. ;) I’m also in agreement with you that Laura’s soul wasn’t in need of saving. I can understand her having concerns that her soul might need saving given some of the choices she’s been forced to make, but at some point I felt the episode crossed the line from Laura Roslin wondering if this is the case and the writers telling us it is the case. And even if part of Laura’s soul had died, I don’t think the power of love, romantic love, was going to bring it back to life. I wish they had continued with what they had started with Lee and had Laura realize she needed to reconnect with all of humanity and not just reach out to Bill Adama. When it comes to romantic love, the show, so progressive in other areas, seems quite antiquated.
I have no idea why Kara was there…But it's weirdly interesting that Kara is someone that Laura thinks of subconsciously as family. I think a lot of that is probably because of her connection with Lee and Adama, but I do also wonder if it's the fact that they are both the theological poles around which this entire show revolves.
See, my take was that she envisioned Kara there because of Kara's relationship with Lee and Adama. That both men, in different ways, would be hurting from her loss and that Kara would be there to support and comfort them. I think it was a logical assumption for her to make.
Reality is falling apart.
Interesting theory, but I don’t think the show is going there. I do believe that Ron is likely to push the bounds of reality and tell us that some mystical being(s) are guiding both human and cylon, but that’s as far as he’ll likely to go.
I loved reading your thoughts. They made me think more about the ep and reconsider some of my own observations. Ultimately, I think there were good ideas, but the execution was off.
Re: Damn, I hate the character limit on comments! <-- Me too!
Date: 2008-06-10 09:25 pm (UTC)*sticks fingers in ears*
LALALA, WRITERS, I CAN'T HEAR YOU! :p
And even if part of Laura’s soul had died, I don’t think the power of love, romantic love, was going to bring it back to life. I wish they had continued with what they had started with Lee and had Laura realize she needed to reconnect with all of humanity and not just reach out to Bill Adama.
In a similar response to the above, I'm just going to stubbornly ignore that notion and decide that her revelations DID begin when she let Natalie talk to the quorum, and this is a continuation of her subconscious chewing on that notion.
When it comes to romantic love, the show, so progressive in other areas, seems quite antiquated.
Largely true, I think. Although I'm very impressed and really enjoying the way that Lee and Kara's relationship is right now. I would have thought that they'd go the easy, "hinted at and really good friends," route for the old people and go with the big epic romance for the young people. The reversal in itself is interesting because middle-aged people so rarely get the sweeping, epic love story on shows like this. But at the same time, I'm disappointed that Laura Roslin, such a groundbreaking character in other ways (ZOMG! A middle-aged, attractive woman in power who is neither butch nor weak! Who isn't married and has no kids and for whom this is not treated as a tragedy!) but has now been attached to such a traditional and age-appropriate romance.
So my feelings on this are...complex.
See, my take was that she envisioned Kara there because of Kara's relationship with Lee and Adama. That both men, in different ways, would be hurting from her loss and that Kara would be there to support and comfort them. I think it was a logical assumption for her to make.
Yeah, I do actually agree with you there. I mean, logically, that's exactly why Kara would be there. But...I still think it's interesting that Elosha said, "these people are the closest thing you have to family." Which suggests that even if Laura isn't close to Kara, the fact that the two men Laura is closest to are close to Kara kind of makes them...vaguely related in this close-knit Fleet? My thoughts about her inclusion because she's the other theological poll is more metatextual: for the viewer (and of course the fact that otherwise there'd be no Starbuck in this episode).
Interesting theory, but I don’t think the show is going there. I do believe that Ron is likely to push the bounds of reality and tell us that some mystical being(s) are guiding both human and cylon, but that’s as far as he’ll likely to go.
Again, I totally agree - it's a crack!theory, truly.
But looking at the strong religious overtones in the DS9 series finale, I do think, like you, that religion and mystical beings might well play some sort of part.
I loved reading your thoughts. They made me think more about the ep and reconsider some of my own observations.
Hey, I'm glad that you enjoyed the post. I always look forward to your comments and ep reactions too - you always see different things to me. It's like...our responses are similar enough I don't feel we're watching totally different shows, but different enough that I get something new from reading them. :)
Re: Damn, I hate the character limit on comments! <-- Me too!
Date: 2008-06-10 11:56 pm (UTC)You mean with them not speaking, only able to exchange glances, and having all of three seconds of screen time together? I'm enjoying that too! :)
The reversal in itself is interesting because middle-aged people so rarely get the sweeping, epic love story on shows like this.
I agree. And I'd probably be much more supportive of the relationship if Adama wasn't such an emotionally immature, pompous ass...and we didn't have a threat of seeing EJO sans shirt. ::shudders::
But at the same time, I'm disappointed that Laura Roslin, such a groundbreaking character in other ways (ZOMG! A middle-aged, attractive woman in power who is neither butch nor weak! Who isn't married and has no kids and for whom this is not treated as a tragedy!) but has now been attached to such a traditional and age-appropriate romance.
Well, we know Mary would love to be all over her hot, younger co-star. Bless her! And it stupefies me why Ron refused to go there since he did the younger man/older woman thing when he was working on Carnivale. Hmph.
you always see different things to me. It's like...our responses are similar enough I don't feel we're watching totally different shows, but different enough that I get something new from reading them.
I feel the same way. Our views are very similar, yet you'll reveal a layer to the text that I failed to notice or interpret something in a way I never would have considered.
Re: Damn, I hate the character limit on comments! <-- Me too!
Date: 2008-06-11 09:16 pm (UTC)HAHAHA! Well yes! But also the scene when they wished each other good luck and kissed. I really felt it was beyond romance and simply...love. But one that was finally unconditional, unposessive, undemanding and one that didn't assume they'd end up MARRIED WITH BABIEZ by the end of the series.
and we didn't have a threat of seeing EJO sans shirt. ::shudders::
I feel so shallow: that possibility really shouldn't be as important to me as it is...
::also shudders::
And it stupefies me why Ron refused to go there since he did the younger man/older woman thing when he was working on Carnivale. Hmph.
I'm so out of the loop I didn't even know that RDM worked on Carnivale. Though I've also never seen it - it's one of those shows everyone tells me I should watch but I never get around to. To be honest, it looked kind of creeeeeepy... /shallow.
Also hooray for the mutual appreciation society! :p
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Date: 2008-06-10 07:18 pm (UTC)I am *so* disappointed in Baltar right now. Which is kind of funny, because it's hard to lower your expectations OF GAIUS BALTAR. He's really turned a disturbing little corner, though.
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Date: 2008-06-10 09:28 pm (UTC)I don't really have a friending policy except that any and all are welcome: I don't always friend back straight away, but please don't take that personally - I'm paranoid about my flist getting too long and I don't like to ignore anyone. But I do want people to feel welcome and I'm always thrilled to have more people to chat about BSG with.
I am *so* disappointed in Baltar right now. Which is kind of funny, because it's hard to lower your expectations OF GAIUS BALTAR. He's really turned a disturbing little corner, though.
I KNOW! THAT IS EXACTLY HOW I FELT!
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Date: 2008-06-11 05:36 am (UTC)I suppose I feel that this is less the episode where Laura Roslin saved her soul, and more the episode where she proved she wasn't in need of saving.
I like how you put this. I could have justified her letting him die, absolutely, because I love her. But she chose to save him even though he doesn’t deserve it and by doing so, she saved herself, as she is. She’d have failed to save him but she wouldn’t have murdered him, not really. But she’d have felt like she did, she’d have felt responsible, because she is Laura Roslin and not Gaius Baltar. By letting him die, she’d almost be validating what he was saying, disclaiming responsibility. And if Laura is anything, she’s an active participant in her own fate. She doesn’t wait for some kind divine grace to fall from the heavens, Laura Roslin will redeem herself, thank you very much, and by doing so, she will eventually bring the entire freaking human race with her. She’s just that awesome.
I don’t think she needs to love Bill, or anyone in particular, to be "worthy" of survival (if you'll excuse the expression!), but I think she needed to accept her own frailties, her own humanity. She locks it away sometimes because she has to, or it would cripple her but there's the tiniest danger that she'll succeed in stamping it out. She’s never lost her empathy, but she’s been getting a little farther away from it this season, a little blinded by her focus on the end goal and the path that’s not as clear as it once was. And here she was almost as far away from it as she’s ever been, but she pulls herself back, she doesn’t cross the line. I liked the end as sort of the culmination of what she did this entire episode, which was holding onto a core piece of herself, embracing something essential that she will not give up, doesn’t need to give up, to save the human race. So cheesy! But I’m glad I found this lovely post!
no subject
Date: 2008-06-11 09:26 pm (UTC)I love, love, love how you put -
And if Laura is anything, she’s an active participant in her own fate. She doesn’t wait for some kind divine grace to fall from the heavens, Laura Roslin will redeem herself, thank you very much, and by doing so, she will eventually bring the entire freaking human race with her. She’s just that awesome.
Thanks for returning the favour and commenting in such a lovely fashion.
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Date: 2008-06-12 05:45 pm (UTC)Laura's personal/spiritual/emotional/moral journey has been... wildly inconsistent. It frustrates me because we should have been getting glimpses of these sorts of struggles since season TWO, when she didn't die the FIRST time, and had to learn to LIVE after the apocalypse and face the consequences of her decisions. Finding LOVE on one's deathbed is so much more cliched (unless, as
so, we're seriously doing this twitter RPG. further information forthcoming. given the choice between rebel Sixes, rebel Eights, Athena, and Tigh, who would you want to be? (
no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 07:42 pm (UTC)Perhaps what's different is the way the SHOW frames his actions and beliefs -- I'm finding it very coy and manipulative of the viewer in a way I don't appreciate.
An excellent way to put it. I will be more inclined to forgive them if in the end he gets royally screwed over and the explicity textual message is, "Gaius Baltar is a selfish human being who's caused damage and hasn't been at all redeemed." Because then they're asking interesting questions along the way, not wrenching something "uplifting" from something depressing. Grr.
ALSO GOOD LORD I HOPE
As to learning to love Kara, 1) HAHA good point, and 2) I've already decided that her loving people isn't limited to just Bill Frakking Adama but is a more expansive declaration of loving her life and Kara was part of her self-described 'family' in that episode. I mean if that ever goes beyond subtext and Laura talks to Kara about this, I will be shocked, but then again, I never expected her to bluntly discuss the Kobol mission with her or have that discussion about the Opera House visions, so we'll see.
I assume you've seen the deleted scenes from Epiphanies that showed up on the French DVD releases that include a scene of Kara watching over Laura's deathbed and then getting into a fight with her about Kobol and Caprica? I know that
Clearly I should be reading this! I think I might check it out next week when Hiatus Fever kicks in.
so, we're seriously doing this twitter RPG. further information forthcoming. given the choice between rebel Sixes, rebel Eights, Athena, and Tigh, who would you want to be? (
No need to apologise for someone having taste :p
Um, which one of those? I don't know. On the one hand I'm like, REBEL SIXES, but on the other hand I'm like, someone's already playing Caprica, and...CRAZY ONE-EYED CYLON DRUNK!
So...I don't know... There's also the fact that I'm sure you can find another player for the REBEL SIXES, but is anyone else weird enough to want to be Tigh? Though I thought it was supposed to be femslashy and stuff? Can I play Tigh in a DRESS? (Okay, NOT RLY, but the image amuses me *headdesk*)
Basically I'm happy to play either, with Tigh edging out in front just because that would be so...weird and cracky. But I'd like your advice - which does the game need more, or if you can get someone for everyone, which do you think I ought to choose?