BSG: Sometimes a Great Notion

[beccatoria]

I should probably wait and let this episode settle before posting my big reaction, but frak it, I don't want to.

Firstly, I shall address the final cylon reveal.

As you know, I was terribly nervous about this because I thought (and it turns out I am largely correct) that any minor character would be a disappointment and I was convinced RDM wouldn't go for a major character.

So. Ellen.

I was actually spoiled for this a few days ago and I'm kind of glad because it gave me a chance to think about it and deal with my disappointment and get to a place where I feel I can comment more rationally. After thinking about it, my considered response is that it has potential (good and bad) and is certainly better than Gaeta or Dee, although in no way comparable to the awesome that would have been Roslin or Kara.

The good potential is that Ellen's at least a character I enjoy and she plays well off Tigh. I also kind of love the hilarity that THIS is the epic, time-spanning romance of the series. I very much hope if we actually, physically see her again that it's clear she didn't know who/what she was the entire time because a lot of why her character works even though she's a manipulative ho is that she's incapable of subtlety and that lends her vulnerability and comedy at the same time. But the idea of Ellen as a crazy puppeteer of all things in that past life (where she certainly seemed to have more of a clue as to what the frak was going on than the other four, unless she was just high on death endorphines or something) only to reincarnate (or whatever) as this Ellen Tigh is...kind of awesome even though I don't want to admit it.

The bad potential is that in some ways, the big, vaunted final cylon reveal is all about someone else, i.e. Tigh. Which is part of why I'd like to see her in some puppetteer role in her last life because that would help make her an interesting character in an independent way without destroying the hilarious issues this brings up re: Tigh's current feelings.

The other bad potential is if they actually physically bring her back. I'm very glad they stayed away from that at this point because if they did bring her back I would be...nervous re: Caprica Six getting dumped yet again which would just be awful to watch. Worse yet, I'd worry about her character getting yet more marginalised to make room for the Epic Love of Tigh/Ellen. And even though I'm in love with the Epic Love of Tigh/Ellen, I love Caprica too. And dammit, it's been THREE EPISODES since we even saw her, and dude, SOMEONE NEEDS TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE DAMN FLIPPERBABY. (They'd totally better not retcon that away somehow.)

Finally, if they bring Ellen back to life, I'd be...a little upset at the way it makes the New Caprica arc play in retrospect. Not show-destroyingly upset. Tigh still did what he did and went through what he went through. But I'm so attached to Totally Fucked-Up Tigh Who Murdered His Wife that I think watching him get a "do-over," because he only half-murdered her would be a little sad for me.

So. In sum. I love Ellen as the sekrit schemer of 2000 years ago if she STAYS DEAD and we learn more about this via flashback/Tigh going EVER MORE CRAZY. If she comes back in the flesh, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, but I shall be nervous.

I'm aware that it's a little odd to want the final cylon to be a dead character who stays dead but...there you have it. It's what I want. And if we get revelations about her role in the 2000 years ago hoojima and why they showed up again in the Colonies, I think that would satisfy the desire for her identity and role to be dramatically significant. But I fear I'm in a minority there.

NO WAIT.

There is one scenario in which I will be TOTALLY OKAY with Ellen being alive again. And that's if she is alive on Earth someplace (cus that's where she resurrected), and then after the Fleet leaves, she hooks up with D'Anna and shares her...I dunno, sekrit hoard of anti-radiation-med-laced algae burgers and moonshine, and then the two of them WANDER THE SURFACE OF NUKED EARTH FOR FORTY YEARS LIKE DRUNKEN ISRAELITES. THINK OF THE HIJINCKS.

Speaking of D'Anna, I hope that next episode they're still sort of at Earth and that we see her again, because she was in like, two scenes and dammit, if this is the last time I see Robot Xena it will make me sad. Although I did find her decision to stay there and "get off this merry-go-round," fascinating. I do like how the cycle of time and our ability to fight it is being called into question. And I was only half joking about D'Anna finding Ellen after the Fleet leaves and then the two of them wandering for 40 years showing up for the finale or something. Although I did feel like telling her she'd better take a boatload of pills, or a firearm with her cus otherwise she's in for one hell of a slow death from starvation.

Moving on to:

Kara and Leoben.

Kara finding her own dead body was pretty amazing. I really hope that is her and not a clone/copy/fake. I hope this for two reasons. 1) it confuses the boundaries between human and cylon, because Kara's not a cylon but apparently has resurrected somehow and 2) I really want there to be a genuine mystical component to Kara's journey and even if she died flying into the Maelstrom, this is still mystical because how did her ship and dead body magically get to Earth? No, wait, three reasons: 3) Kara burning her own body, by herself, was hardcore.

I'm a little perplexed at Leoben's behaviour. I mean, he's Leoben so I love him anyway, and I love that everyone had their faith destroyed in this episode, even him. But I'm not entirely sure why.

I mean, first of all, "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end," didn't seem like something the Hybrid said particularly more quietly than the rest of the prophecy she spoke which everyone who was in that room was discussing. So why didn't Leoben know about this? Of course I did also wonder at the time why everyone conveniently left out that bit which, considering Kara's flashbacks to her, does make me wonder if the Hybrid like...wirelessly sent that straight into her brain or something?

Secondly, Leoben, dude, if anything you've just seen evidence that Kara is a miraculous angel type person. I suppose it's possible he never knew about her death in the Maelstrom in the first place. But even if he didn't, he basically confirmed that if Kara was resurrected, it wasn't an above-board Cylon plan using her ovary or something. And her ship inexplicably jumped across space and here is a perfect copy of her. So what, it's okay to resurrect as long as your'e a cylon and do it using a Hub? But not okay if it's an act of God?

I just fundamentally do not get why Leoben was weirded out by someone being resurrected, especially not when he already attributes religious significance on the level of an angel to that person.

Kara meanwhile, dude. Yes. That was rough for you. It was interesting to see that she was ready to confide in Lee. But I found myself really appreciating her for noticing how much pain he was in and choosing not to tell him what was happening in that moment. Although I wish she'd given him a hug, because dude, someone really, really needed to. And no one did.

Lee was such a hero in this episode. He really stepped up, and pushed through not only the tragedy of finding Earth wasted (which while devastating to him, didn't have quite the personal significance of failure it did to either Kara or Laura or, much as I hate to admit it, Adama), but he also kept it going through Dee's suicide which must not only have been devastatingly personally affecting, but also something for which he received absolutely no support, at least until the end scene with Kara, maybe.

I also have a secret glee that they showed Lee getting Dualla's belongings. The reason is this: way back in late season two/earliest season three, I had a thought that was odd, painful and danced in my head for a few weeks before I decided it wasn't going anywhere and it was this: people in the Fleet have personal effects. Who gets them? In general I imagine there's something of a communal sense of ownership over practical items like clothes, but still. With everyone dead, and new relationships forming so quickly... I had this image of Lee, if Dee died, getting all of Dee's things. Her entire life in a box, even though, really, he barely knew her. Now it's been years. It's not quite the same as it happening after a month or two of dating and a hasty marriage, but it reminded me of that. The people in the Fleet who must have found themselves the guardians of belongings and relics of people they barely knew, but still knew better than anyone alive. So yeah. Oddly prescient.

I don't...I don't know how to assess what happened with Dee. I know that I enjoyed her relationship with Lee more in this episode than I ever had before: that finally it felt healthy and safe and I was even sort of nostalgic for it even though y'all know how much I HATED the entire quadrangle back in S3. Which was, of course, the point. I also get that after Karl tries to calm her on the raptor, that's when Dee decides that she's gonna kill herself, and everything else is just saying goodbye. I get that someone had to respond this way: the exhaustion. One day you just snap. Frankly I'm surprised it never happened before to a character we knew and cared about. And in a weird way, I really get why it's Dee. It couldn't be a more major character, not yet. And characters like Gaeta, Hotdog, Racetrack, Seelix... They don't have the ties to the main characters to not make their inclusion weird or to make their death as impactful to our main characters.

At the same time, Dee just got refrigerated. And while I found her compelling in season one, I haven't really been able to connect to her for a while before this episode because suddenly she was All About A Man.

I'm glad she was finally given some agency of her own, but I'm not sure how I feel about her using it to kill herself.

Unlike some, I never had a problem with the female body count in S4 because I felt it was more a result of there being more secondary female characters than male characters of equivalent importance. I'm not sure if I think this ought to tip the scales. I'm also not sure I entirely disagree with the dramatic decision, which is an uncomfortable place for me to be. Especially since they didn't just kill off a female character to give male characters motivation, they also killed off one of their most prominent characters of colour. Yes we still have Athena/the Eights and Bill Adama, but people of African-American heritage have a particularly stereotypical tendency to get offed.

And yet that's the closest BSG's brought me to crying in a while. Actually, that's not true: the Hub did that too with Laura and Baltar. But I'm not sure BSG had managed to do that before like...ever except perhaps when Tigh poisoned Ellen, because I'm not a crier when it comes to watching TV that much. I thought it made a valuable point and was good for the story, and I can't actually think of another character who would have served that purpose better. Perhaps it was racism and sexism that put her in that position in the first place (just-important-to-care-about-not-important-enough-to-save).

Blargh. *waves hands ineffectively* I don't know. I just don't know. So I'm going to cop out and move on to Bill Adama making Everything About Him.

Okay, Bill. That was...ridiculous. It was bad enough when you were either so ignorant or so selfish as to start playing the "who lost more?" game with your son when Kara died. To do it when that's his WIFE on the mortuary table is pretty fucking terrible.

Because really, that's pretty much what he did. Storm in on Lee's grief, not to hold him, to hug him, to be his father, or, hell his friend, but to respond with a rhetorical, angry line, that, for once in the episode, I thought EJO really nailed if he intended to come off as totally insensitive and angry and drunk and looking for someone to comfort him rather than to offer comfort (and I think that may actually have been the intention. I sure hope it was, because otherwise, ew.)

I get he was trying to show solidarity when he offered Lee a drink. But Lee refused and indicated that wasn't how he wanted to deal with his grief (which I really respect). The next thing we see is Lee leaving the morgue. I don't imagine it was because he was done spending time with his wife, but I wouldn't want to stay there while my drunken father made her death all about him and his failures either. I know that to Adama she was a symbol of his failure in a wider context and also someone to whom he was quite close. But it rang hollow because for one thing we haven't seen them interacting at all for like a season and a half even though she was his daughter-in-law, and for another, it's juxtaposed against Lee, who has so much more of a personal connection with her, not only holding his shit together, but effectively appearing to get kicked out of the morgue so his dad could emo it up on his own.

And just, yeah. Adama. We haven't seen you two talking since like, Home II. LET SOMEONE ELSE HAVE SOME ANGST. And at least give your son a hug. His wife just died, you know.

And then, on to Adama and Tigh. Oh dear lord, that scene was awful. Like, I actually laughed out loud so much that my husband showed up and asked me what was going on, when Adama was all "DO IT! DOOOOOO IT!" because WTF was he doing with his face?

I can't even be bothered to get into all the snark I could make about the qualities Adama admired in Tigh (like what? The alcoholism and total lack of objectivity he's currently emulating?) (well okay, maybe I can be a little bothered), because DUDE.

This is just...farce.

BSG is usually really good at subtle acting. But no. Not here. Adama's breakdown in Revelations was hilarious to me because I find Adama hilarious (and occasionally offensive), but I can at least acknowledge that if I liked his character, I would have been able to take that breakdown seriously (and indeed, parts of it I did, per my original response).

But this? What the fuck was this? I just...I have no frakking clue.

I will say that I found Lee adjusting the white board score to remove one more affecting that that entire scene and pretty much anything else in the episode. Let's hear it for Jamie Bamber there, and in his scene with Kara.

So, the only thing left to talk about is Laura!

Dude, Laura getting of the raptor was painful. I really thought she was going to say something. I really thought she was. I saw her gather herself up, try to put the words together, to pull herself together, and...break.

I think this will be hella interesting and potentially awesome. Because we've never seen her give up before. And yes, I think it makes sense that this is when it happens. And, after three and a half seasons of total selflessness and unwavering devotion to everyone except herself, she's really earned this storyline. She's so angry. That Mary McDonnell manages to convey this without ever raising her voice or acting anything other than numb and devastated speaks to her quality as an actress, but we all know that I'm in love with her already.

"Don't touch me."

Be still my heart.

And no, actually, not just because I hate A/R. Because that line had nothing to do with any romantic feelings she might have for anyone. If the show had gone with Laura/Lee and Lee had been there, or Laura/Maya and Maya had been there, whoever, that line would have been the same, and as perfect and chilling, anyway.

I'm very glad that when she told Adama to leave her the hell alone, he just left her because a) I don't ship them but more importantly b) it means that the plotline can continue. Watching Laura have a crisis of faith and attempt defacto suicide is going to be awesome.

But I do think that Adama royally frakked that one up. What Laura actually needed at that point was for someone to say, "The hell I'm leaving you alone," and like, grab her in a bear hug no matter how much she yelled at them.

I mean, this is the lesser judgment I'm passing down on him because Laura's also an adult, and not his child, and playing the "leave me the hell alone," game which is less easy to deal with when you're also emotionally exhausted, as opposed to Lee who was trying to reach out. But I do think it continues Adama's habit of never really...confronting the people he loves when he needs to.

And finally, Tory, Anders and Tyrol. Dude! Tyrol found his own shadow burned into the wall! That's perversely awesome. Especially the way he looked so calm and at peace to have found it.

AHAHAHAHAAA, Anders is Dylan! And also it's a love song! Though I do wonder what the hell Tory meant by "you sung it for all of us"? Did she mean her, Tyrol, Tigh and Ellen as in, they all knew each other? Did she mean for whatever girlie-groupie-sex-whatever-they-ares that Anders used to have (eew)? Did she mean that Anders was a rockstar and she watched him on TV?

I like to think she wasn't so much speaking literally as metaphorically in that it was the song that called them home, whether that was an original explicit intention or not.

I also like the idea that Tory was the woman Anders loved back then.

And I think that's about it. I liked it, overall. I hated the Adama/Tigh scene, but the rest was fairly solid with some intriguing plotlines set up. Let's just see if they resolve them well. I do wonder if one of the reasons I'm not more concerned is that they're still asking questions rather than giving answers, which leaves me free to fanwank my heart out, like that Ellen will never come back and was secretly behind the resurrection of the Five but also resurrected herself as...well...Ellen.

I am also insanely proud of myself for managing to come up with a scenario that allows me to find this reveal cool rather than boring. GO MY BRAIN.

Oh wait - totally random comment: what was with everyone (i.e. emo extras) suddenly being emo and hanging around in the corridors. They didn't used to do that. Did Galactica shrink or something?

Now I just have to wait for someone to upload next week's trailer onto YouTube because scifi.com won't let me watch it from my location. PERHAPS NEXT WEEK SOMEONE WILL REMEMBER CAPRICA EXISTS.

Comments

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Ellen. Meh.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I'm in the same boat, but not because I'm disappointed in the choice, necessarily, but because I don't think that's it. Too easy.

And not enough attention was paid to the fact that Earth was completely populated by Cylons. And we now need to explain how we've seen several versions of the other Cylons, but never any other versions of the FF. Were only single versions of the FF sent along with the exodus?

J and I have a WIP theory that everyone is actually a Cylon in some way shape or form. Considering everyone came from Earth, which was populated by Cylons 2000 years ago (did I understand that correctly?). There's been a lot of weight placed on the hybrid concept, but what if there have been many many hybrids and the gene pool has been happily diluted to what we have now. Which would offer some explanation for Kara and the special destiny (ie she is less diluted.. however the time travel theory is still effective, particularly since if she happened to be resurrected, she came back with a shiny new Viper, too).

As for Leoben's reaction to her? I think Leoben liked the idea of an angelic being that he could so totally control. This revelation was waaaay off his scale and it frightened him.

And no one has yet answered the question as to why the first Seven aren't actually numbered 1-7.

Laura. You said it.

Bill/Tigh. OMG was he cross-eyed? Worst. Scene. Ever. I am so glad that Dee's scene (and Laura's) existed to counter that (and the emo in the corridor and "FRAK EARTH" on the walls). We know Bill's long ago given up and can't handle all of this betrayal, disappointment and ouch, but -- well, the concept (revealing him as tired, but ultimately a coward) was there, but it was poorly played. What I did appreciate though, was Tigh. He proved why he was Bill's friend and revealed some of those qualities we couldn't understand: he doesn't take Bill's shit.

Lee: Oh Lee. I'm guessing this will be his season to shine. Bill's trying to pull up his boot straps, but Laura is still down, and as Romo said, Lee's always (conveniently) there to take the lead when the seat becomes vacant.

Thank you though, for not letting Lee be angsty over this. As always, I love the scenes between Lee and Bill and how, as Bill breaks down more and more, their roles reverse with Lee becoming the father.

Did you see the Top 10 Things You Need to Know about BSG? It aired here prior to the Webisodes (btw what's up with Gaeta promising a shit storm by speaking of his issues to Adama, but we not see that?) Anyway, RDM spoke of how Bill and Laura are the Mother and Father of the fleet, but clearly, Lee is taking over the role of both.

Anders: I think he's a rock star. Perhaps that was some sort of anthem. He was a star ball player, so he's not averse to the spotlight.

Next week is about Caprica and her baby. Ultrasound! Yay!

Happily, J watched all 3 hours of the event with me and thought the episode was very good. He had stopped watching around the beginnings of the Quadrangle, understandably.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Yes. I was just wondering if everyone might be a Cylon.

Oh. Or maybe the people who all think they are humans, are actually cylons, having a psychotic break, and what they see as the Cylons, are really the humans come to wipe them out for the first Cylon war.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah that was my response until I realised she could have drunken, confused hijinks aboard an abandoned battlestar. I think perhaps my brain is reaching...

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

To my mind the only way they can salvage this is if Ellen turns out to be an aged 6, and there is still a last cylon, and this twist is that they can still surprise us with a new last cylon. Otherwise. Meh.

Didn't Ellen die like, two seasons ago anyway?

I wonder if they might all turn out to be Cylons.

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

Ooh nice icon. Gosh, Beccatoria! I keep trying to reply to our other discussions but canon keeps changing on me! Maybe I should wait?

Aww, you are disappointed about Ellen? I wasn't spoiled but she was always a possibility. Heck, everyone was a possibility. Here's an idea someone on my reading list once suggested. That Ellen Tigh is a Six. Maybe she's the prototype the Six models were based on. I don't know but it's an intriguing theory. And that would brings Caprica and her baby back to the forefront of the story. :-) I don't know if I believe it, but I'm entertaining all theories at this point.

Kara burning her own body, by herself, was hardcore.
Kara is totally hardcore. Yup. As for what she is, I'm going with my theory of time travel. They were both Kara and this Kara is just from another time. I don't know, though. The BSG people have to work to make that make sense.

because WTF was he doing with his face?
Hee! Your line here made me giggle very much.

What was up with the criminal lack of hugs here? Show? Give up the hugs!

Did Galactica shrink or something?
I think the Galacticans always hug out in the halls. After Exodus the ship was always so crowded. But now it's just crowded with despair or something. I also think that a military ship is mean to function. People used to run off and fly CAP and stuff. They had places to go and things to do. I don't think they all know what to do with themselves now.

Go your brain! And thanks for the giggles. I was way too serious watching this ep. And yes, we do need to know what's up with Caprica now. (Was she in the lab with Baltar? Huh?)

Laura can't be broken!!! She's . . . Mom!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I think I'm disappointed about Ellen because I didn't want it to be a "technically possible," or "clever" retcon. I wanted it to be big, earth-shatteringly significant and mystical, you know? But I'm working through my issues with it. ;)

I'm not sure I like the idea she's a Six. They don't look similar enough to me and the Six's don't seem to age. None of the other five are aged versions of other models either.

And THANK YOU! Good point about everyone effectively being off-duty. That would account for the higher than usual number of people in the corridors. No one's doing anything.

Also, glad you like the icon!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I also kind of love the hilarity that THIS is the epic, time-spanning romance of the series.
Me too. I don't particularly care for the Tighs, but in a meta way that's hilarious.

I agree with everything you said about Papadama/EJO too.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I LOVE the Tighs, but even if I didn't I think the meta hilarity of it would convert me instantly!

Part the First

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I also kind of love the hilarity that THIS is the epic, time-spanning romance of the series.

It’s not about Lee and Kara or Adama and Roslin, it’s about Ellen and Tigh! :)

I very much hope if we actually, physically see her again that it's clear she didn't know who/what she was the entire time because a lot of why her character works even though she's a manipulative ho is that she's incapable of subtlety and that lends her vulnerability and comedy at the same time.

Well, the nebula triggered the realization in the other four so either Ellen was on one of the baseships that jumped in and she came to know who/what she really was or it’s possible she still doesn’t know.

and dude, SOMEONE NEEDS TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE DAMN FLIPPERBABY.

Did you see the preview for next weeks episode? There was a really quick clip of Caprica and Tigh together and the background looked like it could be the med bay. Their expressions looked like they could be surprise, concern, or both. So I’m thinking we may get some more information on the baby.

Speaking of D'Anna, I hope that next episode they're still sort of at Earth and that we see her again, because she was in like, two scenes and dammit, if this is the last time I see Robot Xena it will make me sad.

Yeah, I’m hoping we see more of D’Anna, but I fear we will not. Or perhaps we will see her down the road? Maybe Cavil shows up there and forces her to go with him?

I really want there to be a genuine mystical component to Kara's journey and even if she died flying into the Maelstrom, this is still mystical because how did her ship and dead body magically get to Earth?

I had a theory in my post which involves a time/space vortex, Kara’s death being a mistake, and the gods, whoever they may be, resurrecting her to correct that mistake. And I’m suspicious that elements of the original BSG’s episode, ‘Ship of Lights’, are being woven into this story. Accept instead of Apollo being killed, we have Starbuck being killed.

So what, it's okay to resurrect as long as your'e a cylon and do it using a Hub? But not okay if it's an act of God?

Heh. Good point. Maybe it’s a simple as he had his faith shattered. In his beliefs or, more broadly, the Cylon beliefs (they all seem to agree on some theological points, but not others) the Cylon god doesn’t have the power to resurrect humans; therefore, Kara is the creation of something or someone else. Leoben doesn’t know what to make of this because it throws everything he’s been sure of into doubt…and he runs away. I know, I’m reaching. ;)

It was interesting to see that she was ready to confide in Lee. But I found myself really appreciating her for noticing how much pain he was in and choosing not to tell him what was happening in that moment. Although I wish she'd given him a hug, because dude, someone really, really needed to. And no one did.

It was a big step for Kara, putting someone else’s needs in front of her own. And Lee was dealing with something HUGE and she didn’t wish to burden him further. ::pats her on the back:: Also, yes, Lee rally could use a hug and dad’s to busy getting plastered. :p

Re: Part the First

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Re: Caprica/Tigh baby - the preview featured an ultrasound, so yeah, all about baby next week. Yay! Who do we invite to the baby shower??

Re: Part the First

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Well, we know Adama can bring the liquor. :p

Seriously, I would love it if Athena threw Caprica a baby shower. :)

Re: Part the First

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

YOU CANADIANS GET ALL THE BEST PREVIEWS!

Re: Part the First

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Oh also, I got the impression that Kara had no intention of telling anyone about her discovery? She was very quick to dismiss his question about the signal, and then she noticed he was having issues.

After Bill's selfish act in the morgue though, I couldn't expect someone else to do that. I have to give Kara some credit. Even she wouldn't have been so selfish at this stage (ie not drunk and quite so self-destructive and Earth-crazy) in her game.

Re: Part the First

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Actually I'm pretty sure she mentions wanting to talk and says, "I gotta tell someone," after the awkward dismissal of his question about the signal. But then backs off after hearing about Dee.

Re: Part the First

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well, the nebula triggered the realization in the other four so either Ellen was on one of the baseships that jumped in and she came to know who/what she really was or it’s possible she still doesn’t know.

I'm also not convinced she did resurrect. I mean, it makes sense in a meta way because why reveal her if she's not coming back, but as things stand I don't think the FF resurrect and Ellen's just...dead.

Maybe Cavil shows up there and forces her to go with him?

Ooh, interesting.

And I’m suspicious that elements of the original BSG’s episode, ‘Ship of Lights’, are being woven into this story. Accept instead of Apollo being killed, we have Starbuck being killed.

Good point - I really ought to read up on what that story arc is about at some point!

Kara is the creation of something or someone else.

Actually this and something I read elsewhere have helped me make sense of what's going on a little. If Leoben - for whatever reason - believes that Kara can't resurrect, then it means whatever is in front of him isn't Kara Thrace, which is why he's scared. Which may seem obvious but really only half occured to me as I just figure...in a show that's all about how memories and behaviour are more important than biology, of course she's Kara, the question is - how is she alive again? But I think I skipped over something important the show was trying to say.

Part the Second

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Lee was such a hero in this episode.

YES! Thank You!!! I talked at length about Lee in my post (yeah, you’re shocked ;) and it struck me how strong he was in the episode. How he worked through any personal pain to keep the fleet going. Jamie commented in an interview that Lee, in the final episodes, is looking forward and I really sensed that here. Also, earth has never held the same meaning to him as it has to the others and that made it somewhat easier for him to not fall apart and push ahead.

I know that I enjoyed her relationship with Lee more in this episode than I ever had before: that finally it felt healthy and safe and I was even sort of nostalgic for it even though y'all know how much I HATED the entire quadrangle back in S3.

Me too! They seemed really comfortable and at ease with each other and I never sensed that while they were dating or even married. And, for the first time, I saw chemistry. I should have known it was doomed. :/

Unlike some, I never had a problem with the female body count in S4 because I felt it was more a result of there being more secondary female characters than male characters of equivalent importance. I'm not sure if I think this ought to tip the scales. I'm also not sure I entirely disagree with the dramatic decision, which is an uncomfortable place for me to be. Especially since they didn't just kill off a female character to give male characters motivation, they also killed off one of their most prominent characters of colour. Yes we still have Athena/the Eights and Bill Adama, but people of African-American heritage have a particularly stereotypical tendency to get offed.

I’ve seen this brought up elsewhere and maybe I’m being naïve or blind, but my mind never went there. For me, it was never an issue that Lee married a woman who was not white, so her color wasn’t an issue when it came to her death. Dee just happened to be black and just happened to fit a role they needed – someone we knew well enough and cared enough about to make their death tragic, yet not one of the main characters that are still needed to tell their story. Maybe we could criticize the show for not casting a African American as Kara or Lee or Tigh or Helo, the show is predominately white, but Dee’s race was a non-issue for me…if that makes any sense.

Okay, Bill. That was...ridiculous. It was bad enough when you were either so ignorant or so selfish as to start playing the "who lost more?" game with your son when Kara died. To do it when that's his WIFE on the mortuary table is pretty fucking terrible.

I can’t add anything to this. WORD.

The next thing we see is Lee leaving the morgue. I don't imagine it was because he was done spending time with his wife, but I wouldn't want to stay there while my drunken father made her death all about him and his failures either.

That’s my take on it as well. If his father couldn’t be there for him, he sure as hell wasn’t going to be there to prop up his father, again.

BSG is usually really good at subtle acting. But no. Not here.

And Adama’s scenery chewing was made worse by the fact that everyone around him was going with the subtle acting approach.

I think this will be hella interesting and potentially awesome. Because we've never seen her give up before.

When Laura Roslin breaks, you know there is a problem.

Watching Laura have a crisis of faith and attempt defacto suicide is going to be awesome.

It’s an interesting parallel with Dee. Dee wanted to get it over with quickly. She gave herself one last happy day and then ended her suffering. Laura wants to suffer. She wants the slow, painful death because, in her mind, that’s what she’s done to her people and she needs to be punished. She promised to save them and now they are all going to die in the cold and isolation of space.

But I do think that Adama royally frakked that one up. What Laura actually needed at that point was for someone to say, "The hell I'm leaving you alone," and like, grab her in a bear hug no matter how much she yelled at them.

And when has Adama ever been able to deduce what other people need? It’s ALL ABOUT HIM.

Re: Part the Second

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised that the issue of Dee's race has been raised. It's a typical reaction from some people who hunt for such things to make an issue out of. Sad, really, because I'm black and that's most certainly not what I thought of until I read Becca's journal. (However, I do always notice when Simon disappears from the Cylon roster ;)

Re: Part the Second

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I talked at length about Lee in my post (yeah, you’re shocked ;)

COMPLETELY SHOCKED! :p (but srsly, I will go read shortly and am sure I will enjoy). But yeah, Lee was great in this episode. I think not only is he in the position of looking forward and having Earth mean less to him personally, I think that it's easier for Lee to step up and have faith in himself when he has no other options. In some ways he's very like Roslin: when there's no one else to do it, that's when Lee just...loses his baggage and makes himself act. It's when he feels marginalised and irrelevant that he goes all emo and suicidal and overeats and stuff.

so her color wasn’t an issue when it came to her death.

Well, as I said, I actually basically agree with the dramatic decision and my first instinct is to agree and say that in this instance it was an example of killing a character who happened to be both female and black. That said, I know that the reason I'm giving, while sometimes valid, is also often used as an excuse when other factors are in play. This is more...me trying to be responsible and rigorous in my assumptions?

While I'm not saying it was necessarily what happened here, I'd also comment that in television and film, broadly speaking, women and/or people of colour are far more often cast as secondary characters who are in turn far more likely to be killed for emotional effect. So if that's something that's going on here, then it means it's less that Dualla's death in this particular instance dodgy in isolation and more that it plays into an unfortunate wider pattern of casting women and people of colour in more disposable roles.

But as I said...I'm bringing this up more as a question than an accusation, so it's interesting to hear your response! It is, basically, in line with my own; I just still worry that I'm wrong. It's such a difficult subject to navigate I don't want to be close-minded?

And Adama’s scenery chewing was made worse by the fact that everyone around him was going with the subtle acting approach.

Remember that idea (I think) you had about making a list of all the times Adama acted like an ass? When I rewatch I'm totally going to do that and a list of times EJO has gotten 500% of his daily carbohydrate allowance via the scenery.

When Laura Roslin breaks, you know there is a problem.

And that you're in for some spectacular acting. *wibbles*

Laura wants to suffer. She wants the slow, painful death because, in her mind, that’s what she’s done to her people and she needs to be punished. She promised to save them and now they are all going to die in the cold and isolation of space.

Oooh, yes. True. I had mostly seen it as...a form of apathy. Just exhaustion and giving up and it being easier. Sort of how I saw Lee in Resurrection Ship committing suicide by default rather than design. Just...not saving himself rather than killing himself.

But I absolutley think you have a point about her believing she needs to suffer a long, painful death.

It’s ALL ABOUT HIM.

Really, we're just watching the wrong show here, aren't we? ;)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

The part that made me laugh was that it was ELLEN when they spent the WHOLE EPISODE of "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down" worrying that she was.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Indeed, in retrospect it makes that entire episode EVEN MOAR FUNNY! :D

[emmiere.livejournal.com]

I love Ellen as the sekrit schemer of 2000 years ago if she STAYS DEAD

I really, really love this idea. Not the least because we will get more flashbacks from the happy Cylon society where Tyrol has awesome glasses and Anders is a rockstar. I need more of these as soon as possible. :)

But, really because bringing her back just doesn't make what happened on New Caprica sit right with me. I've been wanting the Fifth to know who and what they were all along, but now that it's Ellen? I don't. If she comes back it affects my emotional reading of her death and I'm really and unreasonably attached to that scene.

But she has potential as the Fifth, yes. Especially if she goes wandering the radioactive desert with D'Anna. I don't think this image will ever cease to be endlessly entertaining to me.

I have hit a point with Adama where I find him utterly ridiculous. I don't know what he could possibly do to win me over now that we've reached this level. Does laughing help? I think my character appreciation mission over the hiatus has failed spectacularly with him. Lee was good here though, and desperately needed that hug. He's going to have to shoulder so much now with Roslin quietly breaking down. She was in here for such a short time, but she was just so heartbreaking on the raptor.

For such a short scene, D'Anna brought up some of the most interesting questions of the epsiode for me when she opted out of the merry go round cycle of destiny. I'll miss her if she's just gone.

I do wonder if one of the reasons I'm not more concerned is that they're still asking questions rather than giving answers.

This was one of the things I liked most about the episode, though I'm a little scared what will happen when they finally have to show their hand. But I like that all of the reveals (especially Ellen) didn't make me go "Oh, well now I understand everything." It's been a long break and we deserve some payoff but the questions are still just so interesting.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I really, really love this idea. Not the least because we will get more flashbacks from the happy Cylon society where Tyrol has awesome glasses and Anders is a rockstar. I need more of these as soon as possible. :)

I have a desperate need to see more of this too. I definitely hope Anders is an actual rock star not just some guy who liked to serenade girls. Tory can be the Sharon to his Ozzy Osbourne! XD



But, really because bringing her back just doesn't make what happened on New Caprica sit right with me. I've been wanting the Fifth to know who and what they were all along, but now that it's Ellen? I don't. If she comes back it affects my emotional reading of her death and I'm really and unreasonably attached to that scene.

I agree and share your unreasonable attachment to that scene. When BSG is over I'm going to do like, a top ten list of best moments and that will definitely be on there. I think it might have been one of the best things BSG ever did. Which is why I don't want the horror of it lessened in any way. Which, if she stays dead, it isn't. Although I really think that she won't stay dead. :( But for the moment, I am in happy land.

Especially if she goes wandering the radioactive desert with D'Anna. I don't think this image will ever cease to be endlessly entertaining to me

I am so glad someone else understands why this is hilarious!


I have hit a point with Adama where I find him utterly ridiculous. I don't know what he could possibly do to win me over now that we've reached this level. Does laughing help?

Laughing definitely helps. Laughing was what got me through 4.0 and even convinced me I could love him in a hilarious kind of way. Srsly, though, here, even with the laughing, I'm losing that nuts zen I found a little.

But yeah. The man is just so ludicrous. I find it hard to remember I once liked him, back in season one.

I'm also making the mistake of actually making an Adama vid. Which I think is all about how he sits passively by feeling sorry for himself while everyone falls apart around him, but I have a feeling everyone else will think is about how hard life is for him because for some UNKNOWN REASON I am playing it straight. Possibly because I feel it's a serious point that needs to be made and therefore I will make the vid seriously, but in committing to Bill Adama's emo perspective so thoroughly I'm not sure I won't convince people it's mine. We'll...see.

And rewatching a lot of Adama footage certainly ISN'T helping my appreciation of him. I keep finding awful things he did that I'd TOTALLY FORGOTTEN ABOUT. *facepalm*

For such a short scene, D'Anna brought up some of the most interesting questions of the epsiode for me when she opted out of the merry go round cycle of destiny. I'll miss her if she's just

Not much to add here, except that I agree.

though I'm a little scared what will happen when they finally have to show their hand.

Yeah. Me too. I feel ungrateful for not having that much faith in them, but...just...there are so many directions they could take it that I wouldn't love but I think others would. *wibble*

[projectcyborg.livejournal.com]

Lee was such a hero in this episode.

LEE'S HAIR WAS A HERO. the rest of him was a w00bie.

I can't believe you didn't love the Adama/Tigh scene! IT WAS SO GAY AND HILARIOUS.

if D'Anna really does stay on Earth, even with Ellen to keep her company, I'm going to cry!

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

I mean, first of all, "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end," didn't seem like something the Hybrid said particularly more quietly than the rest of the prophecy she spoke which everyone who was in that room was discussing. So why didn't Leoben know about this?

Those lines actually were somewhat quieter. (I just rewatched.)

As for Lee getting Dualla's effects, I'm just worried about the radioactive jacks. :/