BSG: No Exit

[beccatoria]

Right, proper long rambling review time. It's kinda odd since I've already been over this with most of y'all, but...habits are habits and I haven't said everything I want to say.

First off, I'm going to lay out what I THINK that giant great big retcon meant.

3,000ish years ago, there were twelve tribes of humans and one Cylon tribe on Kobol. They had resurrection technology (organic memory transfer). For reasons unknown, the twelve tribes went to the Colonies while the thirteenth tribe of the Cylon went to Earth.

The Cylon headed to Earth, stopping off on the Algae Planet and building the Temple of Hopes.

Once the Cylon were settled on Earth they began to reproduce biologically and resurrection technology faded from use, and indeed, the technology behind it was forgotten.

2,000ish years ago (so a thousand years after they arrived on Earth) there was some kind of nuclear war. The presence of centurions on the planet, and the Final Five's worry about warning the Colonials about the dangers of creativing artificial life indicates that perhaps their own Centurions rebelled against them. In any event, it seems to have wrought mutual extinction as no one survived.

(Note: some of the ruins on Kobol were dated to 2,000 years ago not 3,000 years ago suggesting that perhaps the exodus of the 12 tribes from Kobol to the Colonies occured a thousand years after the Cylon exodus? Or at least that some were left behind?)

The Final Five were somehow warned about this impending apocalypse, Sam's babbling is very suggestive of Head People being involved in that warning ("I saw a woman, Tory, you saw a man no one else could see, Galen thought he had a chip in his head..."). In preparation they worked to rebuild resurrection technology and were successful.

When the end came, they resurrected on a ship in orbit and travelled to the Colonies. This took two thousand years. But because they travelled at close to lightspeed but not using jump technology, time slowed for them and they experienced the journey in a much shorter period of time. (As far as I'm aware, this actually tallies with the way we believe travelling at light speed would work.) On the way back they stopped at the Temple of Hopes. Something Ellen herself doesn't understand occured and it became the Temple of the Five which revealed their identities to D'anna during the Supernova.

They got to the Colonies to discover the original Cylon War in full swing. The Centurions were attempting to create flesh bodies, but had only managed to get so far as the Hybrid. The Final Five made a deal that if they stopped the war they would help them build biological bodies for themselves.

They made eight models and gave them resurrection. It's not entirely clear whether the biological natures of the rest of Cylon technology were entirely the innovation of the FF or extrapolations that the Cylon made later. Ellen identifies belief in a single merciful God as a Centurion value, and Sam says that they kept this because they thought it would stop the cycle of violence.

John (Cavil) was the first model and helped them build the others. He poisoned the Sevens. He trapped the FF in a compartment and vented the oxygen, boxing them. Slowly, he resurrected them, implanted them with false memories and reinserted them into Colonial society to give them an up close and personal view of armageddon. Tigh was the first, and we know that happened over thirty years ago, and Cavil managed to delete his sleep subroutine about twenty years ago. So it's clear that the creation of the eight models occurred in the first ten years after the armastice.

Cavil also deleted the memories of the Five from the memories of his siblings, and pretended he didn't know anything either.

Which, I think, brings us up to date. PHEW.

RIGHT. MOVING ON.

I actually like most of this retcon. It doesn't remove the mysticism, it adds a good amount of coherency. And obviously I like the fact that the Final Five were involved in the creation of the Seven Eight in hopes of stopping the cycle of time violence because, well, I think that's the way the story has been hinting it needs to go for a long time. I'm not particularly creeped out that my broad-strokes theory on that has panned out because I really think it's strongly thematically outlined in the show. The CREEPY thing is Daniel, but more on that later.

I'll deal with the shortest plots first so that I can move on to the really crazy plotty thinky stuff in a minute.

LEE & LAURA. Oh, those two together talking politics makes my heart go all a-flutter.

On a serious note, I'm still struggling to get a handle on Laura and this hurts me in my soul.

I'm very, very relieved that her stepping back seemed more to do with her illness than her desire to stay home and cook, but metatextually I'm still a little irked by the timing.

She's still...giving up, apparently only coming out to reclaim her awesome yelling voice in order to rain down vengeance because her man is in trouble not because her people are.

Please show. Please. This is me actually begging you, don't take away Laura. Don't do that to me. I love her too much for you to do that to me. Reassure me that you'll address that she's quitting. Perhaps quitting for better reasons. Perhaps even necessary health-related reasons. But you can't say that she isn't still reacting out of a belief that she's a fraud, which is affecting her belief in her leadership abilities in general.

That said, things I loved about this included, seeing Lee as Lee and the tone of her grief for the Quorum. That, at least, was something I believed was pure Laura. That quiet conviction and understanding of her own grief and guilt. Not buttoned up and drunken like Adama. Not numb, like Kara. More like Lee, quietly removing one digit from the white board.

I enjoyed Lee's comment about a new kind of order. At least something's changing in the wake of the devastating mutiny. Ironic Zarek never got to see Lee begin governmental change he probably wouldn't have approved of anyway even though all his politics about moving on and accepting we're no longer bankers or lawyers or gardeners should demand that he love it.

The symbolism about Galactica herself becoming a Cylon hybrid was WAY heavy-handed but...perfect. I love it. Cylon ceiling wax will save us all!

Adama is still drunk and addicted to some kind of pill. I find myself not really caring and just being grateful he didn't share any screen time with Laura. Also, that crack in his quarters is CLEARLY the result of his addiction to CHEWING ON THE SCENERY. Honestly, Adama, your manpain has ruined the ship. I HOPE THE CYLON CEILING WAX STICKS TO YOUR MOLARS NEXT TIME YOU TRY IT.

I really thought there was, like, some kind of mutiny last week? With threats of rape and murder and that kind of thing?

I know they'd be short on pilots if they executed them all or threw them in the brig. I know that Washington dealt with a mutiny by executing the ringleaders and letting the others continue to serve.

Doesn't answer my questions: how will Adama address people's fears other than stoic insistence that they do what he wants? How will he prevent this from happening again? Should we forget how strongly Narcho feels? How the hell are Skulls and Starbuck going to fly together? How the hell is Athena supposed to forget threats of rape? Where does "ringleader" become "minor follower"?

They dodged that question this episode by focusing very closely on very few people. Starbuck I buy just not even thinking about the rest of it because she's so worried about Sam. And we didn't see that many of the deck gang involved in the mutiny so maybe that explains why Tyrol can get on with stuff. But...I want to know what happened and what measures were taken on both issues.

Ignoring them all seems...dangerous. If they do that, I'll want these issues to rise again before the end of the series. The mutineers might be feeling beaten and lucky to be given passes right now but damn that's one bitter ship.

Now. What this episode was REALLY about.

Oh SAMMY. Please don't be forever brain dead. That would suck like a sucky thing. I'm telling myself that's such an undramatic way to go forever they wouldn't choose it. *hopes*

Maybe Ellen can fix him?

I loved his hybrid-like babbling in the early parts. I loved how scared Kara was for him. I'm surprised by how attached I've grown to that relationship; indeed by how much I've come to love Sam Anders. I really think they did a great job of moving Kara from a place of fear and confusion at Sam's cylonicity to a place where it's just such a nonissue. As a result of her own terror at her situation; a place where she now considers even being a Cylon as better than being nothing at all. And as a result of him being, well, almost dead.

Anyway, I really bought their interactions here and I felt so bad for Kara with her terrified apology about being "greedy" because she wanted to be the seven because it would be better than being nothing at all. *flails a little* Sweetheart.

Sam somehow still felt like Sam to me, even during the whole science-babble thing.

I was a little disappointed that it was Tory and Galen who were madly in love not Sam and Tory because that would fit in nicely with their being drawn together during the song, and Tory's insinuation that she was the woman he loved that he wrote the song for (and also BOO, I wanted him to be a ROCK STAR not a LAB PERSON: in my head he was both).

Mainly just cus Galen/Tory is the least interesting of all possible couples that could come out of a Galen/Sam/Tory love triangle. :(

BUT on the other hand it does hilariously keep the Chief in the habit of loving the women who murder the other women that he loves. So...that's a keeper.


I had a horrible realisation during this episode. I'm no longer all that stressed about the Return of Gazelle Ellen Gazellen. I started getting a little convinced that they could handle that in a way that wouldn't equal instant dumpsville for Caprica.

Which of course made me wonder what OTHER doom they could be plotting that would require a scene of such domestic bliss and oddly non-alcoholic and child-friendly Tigh. AND THEN THEY BROUGHT BACK UNSYMPATHETIC ISHAY THE TERROR NURSE.

Dudes. If they kill Flipper, I will...cry. Even if the stupid writers made him a boy.

Caprica Six continues the trend of having at least one really distracting piece of wardrobe in every scene she's in. Last time it was the stilettos. This time it was the GODSAWFUL WEAVE. Seriously, I know they can't just bleach her hair, but does her wig have to get progressively more....Marlene Dietrich on a bad day? Currently I'm trying to blame bed-head but the trailer for next week looks just as bad and she out in public then.

Also, as a shameless (well, okay, I'm a little ashamed) supporter of the mutant flipper family, I am ashamed to admit that I found happy, smiling Tigh really frakking creepy. Like...adorable. But creepy. Acreepable.

Finally I will leave you with this. I had to pause the episode during my rewatch (I actually rewatched it before doing my write-up! I nearly never do that!) to get the phone and came back to find THIS freeze frame. It needed some kind of caption.




Mostly you all know what this is about already because of previous posts, but obviously I need to mention it here too, to be complete.

I don't even need to call that Daniel will turn out to be Kara's father because I kind of already wrote a whole story called The Body is a Myth which had, as a major plotline, the fact that Kara's father was a) Cylon number 7 (although in my version he was just one of the final five) and b) named Daniel (which no, I did not get from any canon source.

I feel a bit odd about being all, "OOOH LOOK AT ME!" about that, but for real, it's kind of creepy even if Daniel doesn't end up being Kara's father and I think I'm allowed a bit of a flipout about it. Because it's kinda creepy.

EVEN MORE creepy is the fact that I went to see my friend today and told him this story and he said that he was also creeped out because when he watched the episode, he kept forgetting Cavil's 'real' name (John) and somehow got it into his head that it was Daniel. So when Anders said, "Daniel," he got really, really confused, and stayed confused until the conversation between "John" and Ellen about what he did to Daniel.

So yeah. Daniels are floating around in the ether, it seems.

For a more realistic view of things, I'm trying to manage my expectations on this front for a few reasons:

1) It would make the need to retcon Nicky Tyrol as Not A Hybrid EVEN MORE ridiculous.

2) Kara didn't react to the name like you'd expect if it was her father's. I mean, I know she was hoping for her own name, and I know Daniel's pretty common, but since she's actively looking for a connection, I'd think she'd've been a little more surprised? Or something? Though I suppose he could have had an assumed name during his time as Mr Thrace. Although the Final Five kept their original names.

There is, of course, a way around that. I blame prolix_allie for planting the idea in my head in her comments. Remember how I was so attached to Kara being half cylon that I was desperately scrabbling for ways to make Ellen Tigh, of all people, her Mom?

What if Kara is a mutant flipper baby JUST LIKE FLIPPER? If Daniel is her father and Ellen is her mother. Ellen was "very close" to Daniel in a way that made John so jealous he murdered his entire line, and we know that John extracted vengeance on Ellen by, well, frakking her. It's all very twisted, and I'm only suggesting this half seriously, but I think it could work. If, to save the original Daniel, Ellen faked his death, and parcelled him off with her daughter into the Colonies with new memories and he ended up married to Socrata Thrace? (Though I don't seriously want her to not be Kara's real mother because I also think that would, in some ways, be too easy.)


And now we get to the BEST BITS OF THE WHOLE EPISODE.

New!Ellen is kind of awesome. She's not really Old!Ellen and I miss Old!Ellen and am also convinced that Old!Ellen saying all the same things but being drunk and flighty would have been hilarious, but...I can deal.

I also really, really felt for her when she first woke up and was kind of sad when she got it together. I don't think we'll ever see Ellen's drunken vulnerability again.

And finally, I have to be honest in the early scenes I wasn't really feeling Kate Vernon's performance (though it was very difficult material). By the end, though, I was sold. The later scenes are great.

CAVIL. I never thought I'd be so interested in him. He was always entertaining and theoretically interesting as the atheist machine. But I never thought they'd so wholly sell me on him being fascinating.

Dean Stockwell was brilliant. I'd never appreciated him before; he'd never had a chance to be this awesome.

I just completely bought him as this rageful, petulant, veangeful, angry child, and everything that I might otherwise have been disappointed with, thematically, disappeared behind the conviction of that.

(Those other things being: that the argument against the only method of the Cylon becoming "better" and "good" is to make them be more human is coming from a "bad" character; that the atheist is the one ultimately responsible for armageddon potentially uncomplexifying the role of a loving God in a religious war; that so much of the evolution of the humanoid Cylon comes from external sources.)

This episode was so full of quiet, undermining moments and themes, that everything I could rail against is kind of...on feeble ground anyway.

(Thos undermining aspects being: that Cavil's arguments make for such damn good TV and that he makes a sympathetic villain with a point far better than Zarek in the last few weeks and that Ellen treats the Centurions with such respect and displays such a lack of appreciation for human norms regarding age and parental roles; that that God still was the main motivator for much of that war regardless of Cavil's feelings and that Cavil clearly doesn't control as much of the Cylon nation as he perceives as evidenced by their vote-abiding structures, decision to follow Boomer and Caprica, etc.; that those external sources were still robots and that they are following values from the centurions and were, in fact, created in hoardes and as something quite other than human.)

I can't even begin to get into the world of awesome that is the Cavil-Ellen relationship in all its fucked up iterations.

It's perfectly in keeping with Greek myth but I also can't help but be a little shocked that the network let the show go there so blatantly.

John is modeled on Ellen's father. Ellen is his mother. He knowingly frakked her to get revenge.

The layers in that...I'm not sure I can begin to cut through. How dark that is in terms of his motivations. How much of that must have been out of his constant desire to prove that he's a machine; these things don't matter. When really, if they didn't matter, he wouldn't care about doing them in the first place to prove they don't matter.

I love the way his physical appearance is at odds with his status as the young boy in this.

I love the way Ellen accepts him and loves him even though he's like...totally evil.

I love that moment where Ellen tries the Oprah moment and wants to hug him, and he just spews forth rage.

I love everything about those two and their back-and-forths in this episode and I can't even begin to unpick the complexities of it.

It's weird to admit, since I still think Laura Roslin as the fifth would have been the better choice, but in some ways, these scenes wouldn't have worked with her, just because...she would have succeeded too well in her new life for Cavil to bear.


- Boomer was involved with Cavil and found out about Ellen from at least two months before the Algae Planet storyline. She knew about Ellen and was under Cavil's influence when she told Athena about Hera, and, more interestingly, when she threatened to kill Hera. I think this makes her actions a lot more interesting and makes me wonder if half of the reasons she was so cold and bitter to the child and her opinions of Human-Cylon interaction wasn't just down to the disaster of New Caprica but Cavil's constant insistence that she try to be just a machine. Anyway, it's interesting that he "got" to her so early.

- I want to know who the other seven models were modelled from! I just hope we don't get a horrifying reveal like Caprica being modelled on Saul Tigh's younger sister or something. o_O

- When Ellen's sketching Saul, Boomer notes that it must be hard knowing he hates her for what she's done. This may indicate that Boomer doesn't know who the other four are. Which seems strange since I don't see why Ellen would hide it, unless Boomer bought into Cavil's crap so much she thought she didn't want to know? It could just indicate that she knew Tigh was oblivious to his own Cylon nature and thus would hate Ellen as a human would for betraying the Resistance? I don't know, but I feel she might respond differently if she knew during most of this episode that Tyrol was one of the Five (though if Ellen told her at the end, in the raptor, I have no clue.)

- Yes. Yes, Cavil. Your body is absurd. We are all absurd. We exist in an absurd universe.

- If Gaius Baltar is Daniel, I will THROW THINGS.

- I'm still completely unsure how I respond to Grace Park's acting. On the one hand, she has the same ability as Tricia Helfer - to let me know which copy of her model she's playing just by the way she holds herself and what she does with her face, and it was very clear here when she was definitely, absolutely, Boomer and not Athena. On the other hand, I still find myself just...not connecting with her performance a lot of the time.

- I loved the fact that apparently loving and keeping your artificial life doesn't prevent it from turning against you and murdering you, as evidenced by John and the Final Five. Not entirely sure what that means thematically, but I did love that they still screwed it up.

- I love that the hybrid, the metatron, is totally a creation of the Centurions.

- Clearly, Cylon-oriented episodes in which Boomer is struggling with her identity, in opposition to a manipulative Cylon authority figure who wants her to shut up and be a good little machine, but ultimately sees her choose to run off with a sexy blonde to turn humanity's world upside down, are WIN, even if I wish they had less ham-handed dialogue. This episode was like the anti-Downloaded.

*DEEP HUGE BREATH*

Aaaaaand, I think I'm done.

Comments

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I read your recap of the past 3,000 years and it seems our timelines match. PHEW!

Ironic Zarek never got to see Lee begin governmental change he probably wouldn't have approved of anyway even though all his politics about moving on and accepting we're no longer bankers or lawyers or gardeners should demand that he love it.

Zarek saw Adama, Roslin, and Lee as some sort of monarchy, so even though Lee is making changes that he should be thrilled with, no, I can't imagine he'd be pleased because it wouldn't be him making the changes. That was the biggest problem in accepting anything Zarek had to say. He believed NO ONE in the fleet was capable of instituting change and being a good leader accept for himself.

Also, that crack in his quarters is CLEARLY the result of his addiction to CHEWING ON THE SCENERY. Honestly, Adama, your manpain has ruined the ship. I HOPE THE CYLON CEILING WAX STICKS TO YOUR MOLARS NEXT TIME YOU TRY IT.

This had me dying. :)

Re: Tory and Galen: It would make *more* sense if it were Tory and Sam who were madly in love in their past lives. However, I got the sense in 'Escape Velocity' that Tory had an interest in Galen. Cally was wrong, they weren't actually having an affair, but if Galen had been more willing I could have seen it happening.

Re: Daniel: Like you, I would expect Kara to have had more of a reaction if that was her father's name. However, if her father was the last surviving Seven who barely escaped Cavil's wrath, then he likely would have changed his name before going out into the world. And, keep in mind, the Sixes all seem to have taken different names as opposed to every other Cylon model. Do you think Ellen will explain that quirk to us?

Thanks for clearing up the Boomer timeline. Knowing she was already involved with Cavil prior to being tapped to play Mommy to Hera, would help to explain her hatred (?) of the child. After all, she and Galen had talked about having children, she did want them at one point in her life, and then suddenly she wanted nothing to do with Hera or procreation.

And I felt Boomer's discussion with Ellen about Tigh's hate for her had to do with what Ellen did on New Caprica, betraying the resistance and, by extension, him. I think Boomer needed to hear Ellen's POV because Boomer had done the same thing, betrayed the fleet and Galen, while having no knowledge of who she really was. If Ellen honestly believed Tigh would forgive her, it means Boomer has hope that she, too, will be forgiven.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I read your recap of the past 3,000 years and it seems our timelines match. PHEW!

RELIEF!

And yeah, good observation about Zarek. Even in his first episode he's drawing attention to Apollo's callsign and privilege; we know he views Adama as Zeus. He'd be unable to see beyond that privilege and recognise the good idea.

I'm glad you found the scenery chewing funny. I almost macro'd it but figured it'd mean having to watch more of Adama and these days little is worth that... :p

Re: Tory and Galen: It would make *more* sense if it were Tory and Sam who were madly in love in their past lives. However, I got the sense in 'Escape Velocity' that Tory had an interest in Galen.

Yes, definitely, although I got the feeling that that was less a subconscious and powerful connection with Galen the way it was with Sam when they were switched on, and more a conscious attempt to seek connection with another Cylon, and Galen was the one around. That said, yes, it does work.

I agree that it's more likely that Daniel got a fake name, especially if he was hidden by Ellen (or the FF in general) rather than dumped as a cruel trick by John as they were. But I did think of another thing that, sadly, undercuts the potential for him to be Starbuck's father.

If she's half-human half Eight-Models Cylon like Hera, why doesn't she, too, have mystical cylon cancer-curing blood? She's in the military, her blood type is on record, more than that the Cylon in the Farm would have gotten hold of it too.

I suppose they could either ignore the issue, explain that not all Hybrids have that "blood type" the same way not all humans have the same "blood type" or even explain that due to *mcguffin handwavey crud* hybrids only have that blood type in-utero thus also explaining why another transfusion from Hera is not possible in treating Roslin (although I have no earthly idea how that could make any scientific sense.)

You make good points about how Boomer probably saw more similarities in her and Ellen's situation that even I'd previously realised. It's especially important to remember that at the time of the conversation, I don't think they're aware that the other four know who they are, anyway.

[chaila.livejournal.com]

Skipping over Laura, because, yeah. There's one interpretation in which I love that scene and one in which I hate it, and I'm still angry with the show for making me doubt which one I'm supposed to take away, despite the fact that I cling to the one I like.

I am wondering if I should be concerned by the fact that I am way less squicked by Cavil's mommy issues than some other people seem to be. I guess I'm not really thinking of her as their "mother" so much as their "creator," which makes his issues still pretty creepy but way more machine-like, rather than about actual relation. Which of course raises all sorts of questions about how much relation has to do with actual genetic relation and how much it has to do with perception, ane he clearly has mommy issues and she clearly has some maternal feelings about the other models. Oh Cylons, I always say that I am not as taken with Cylons as other people, but I think perhaps that's no longer true. But seriously, I'm still not properly squicked!

I agree that these scenes would not have worked with Laura as the fifth. It would have had to have been a whole different deal, but what I rather like about the way they did do it is that it's about all five of them, collectively. Laura would never have been good as one of five. :)

The Six wigs lately have been GODAWFUL. Seriously, what happened to the old wig? It wasn't awesome but it wasn't, like, old lady helmet-head?

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm still angry with the show for making me doubt which one I'm supposed to take away, despite the fact that I cling to the one I like.

::clings to you::

I am wondering if I should be concerned by the fact that I am way less squicked by Cavil's mommy issues than some other people seem to be. I guess I'm not really thinking of her as their "mother" so much as their "creator," which makes his issues still pretty creepy but way more machine-like, rather than about actual relation.

Well, firstly, I'm probably not as squicked as some. I'm actually awed and impressed and very much in favour of the plotline. But the reason I do find it squicky and the reason it pings as strongly Oedipal and evidence of just how messed-up Cavil is is because of the way the characters choose to interpret their relationship.

It probably won't squick me that much (although I'll enjoy the greek-god-incestuous metaphors) when/if Caprica/Tigh or Tyrol/Boomer exist as couples where one half of them remembers creating the other half. There's a lot of time that's passed; sections of that where neither knew what they were to each other, and we have no idea how Tyrol and Tigh feel about their role as creators, nor who the models they ended up with were based on in relation to them.

The reason it's particularly squicky and awesome in the case of Ellen/Tigh is the fact that they're choosing to play up that family connection more than they need to. Everything about Ellen's attitudes to him screams mommy and boy, at the same time as she's paying tribute to her own father. At the same time Cavil knows this and yet knowing decides to sleep with her to prove some kind of point.

It's less the technical truth of their relationship and more the way the show and characters themselves chose to make it about the familial side of things.

Laura would never have been good as one of five. :)

She would have been AWESOME, just...not in this episode. ;)

Seriously, what happened to the old wig? It wasn't awesome but it wasn't, like, old lady helmet-head?

I'd grown accustomed to that one's badness!

I miss the LateS2/EarlyS3 wigs. Is it...sad that I can vaguely remember the differences and which one I liked best?

This one though, is the WORST WIG EVER.

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

Have I mentioned lately how much I love your brain? This whole post is full of win! Your summary of the timeline is among the most concise and lucid ones that I've seen, and I think I agree with you on every single point (except maybe creepy!Tigh, because while I was having a bit of a disconnect at his happiness, it didn't really creep me out), including relief at the lack of A/R--though the fact that I agree with you there makes me sad.

Also, that crack in his quarters is CLEARLY the result of his addiction to CHEWING ON THE SCENERY. Honestly, Adama, your manpain has ruined the ship.

This had me LAUGHING OUT LOUD in a way that would have scared other people, had they heard me. SO TRUE!!!

Also LOL-worthy, of course, is the macro. Oh, Caprica/Tigh!!!!

I'm still struggling to get a handle on Laura and this hurts me in my soul. [...]

Please show. Please. This is me actually begging you, don't take away Laura. Don't do that to me. I love her too much for you to do that to me. Reassure me that you'll address that she's quitting. Perhaps quitting for better reasons. Perhaps even necessary health-related reasons. But you can't say that she isn't still reacting out of a belief that she's a fraud, which is affecting her belief in her leadership abilities in general.

Yes to every word of this. I was almost relieved that we didn't get more Laura in this episode because I hate feeling so uncertain about her, and at least when they don't show her, they can't screw her up. And then that thought itself made me want to cry.

I do hope we get more of a clue about how she's handling the fallout from Earth, because I do think that's still a big part of what she's still dealing with here. As I was commenting to dionusia in her post, I feel like Earth being what it was has disrupted the balance of what Laura has done and why for the whole series, and I still don't have a handle on how she's dealing with that. dionusia had commented that she'd like to see Laura admit to some of the mistakes she's made. My response was that Laura would probably easily rattle off a list of all the wrong things she's done, but she wouldn't see them as "mistakes" and she doesn't regret them: they were the best of all the wrong choices she had, the smart thing if not the right thing. She made them with her eyes open, and she'd make them again. (In a bit of delicious irony, I think the one thing she does regret is not stealing the election--the time she succumbed to the right thing instead of the smart thing.)

But then all of this changes, perhaps, with "Revelations." The whole, fascinating utilitarian calculus of Laura Roslin has been to keep the fleet alive and safe and to get them to Earth. And then Earth becomes a literal dead end. If your entire way of doing things has been predicated on the idea that the ends (safety, home, Earth) justify the means (baby-stealing, attempted genocide, dictatorship), what happens when the ends aren't what you expected? I don't think we're seeing how shattering this must be to Laura being adequately dramatized. She's still giving Lee the advice that has defined her own presidency, but how much does she still believe in that advice? I think she does, she must--this was her m.o. even before there was a rumor of Earth, much less the possibility of the real thing--but I think she's also dealing with a lot of self-doubt and fears that she's a fraud.

We got some of this in "The Oath," that marvelous conversation between Laura and Gaius, but I want more. I desperately need a satisfactory end of her part of the story, in a way that does justice to the strength of her character (and to what her character has been about the whole time--she hasn't always been pretty or palatable, and that's exactly the point).

I feel like despite my relief at a week free of the Laura angst that has been plaguing me, this might still be the week for a big Laura post. I've been a little surprised by some of the reactions I've seen to Laura this season, from both her fans and detractors, and I'm feeling compelled to explain Laura as I see her.

[chaila.livejournal.com]

this might still be the week for a big Laura post. I've been a little surprised by some of the reactions I've seen to Laura this season, from both her fans and detractors, and I'm feeling compelled to explain Laura as I see her.

DO IT!!!

What I loved about The Oath and even BOTS (excluding Boyfriend Issues) was Laura putting aside her doubts and belief that she might be a fraud in favor of saving all their asses again, because she can and because that is what she DOES. I want her--and okay, everyone else too--to realize that whatever happens next SHE SAVED THEM, again and again, and even when she missteps it's pretty much out of the same motive. Even though Earth isn't a haven and even if she's not the dying leader (still not convinced on this point, obviously), she got them this far and I haven't seen anyone else who could have done so in her absence. I don't think this makes me a Laura apologist, but I do think she HAS always been understandable and justifiable (and when she's scariest is when she's most logical) and I don't think any of these parts of her have changed (if I'm being honest, I think she's probably justified in even the recent parts of her story that I have loathed with a fiery, fiery passion).

And given that I see her pretty much doing what she always has, I'm finding the viewer reactions to Laura that you reference above fascinating in terms of how it relates to other characters' reactions to her within the show. I'm so curious as to why all the criticism from all angles now (excluding the squicky Bill crap, which has fewer people up in arms, apart from people we know). There's almost a sense of brushing her aside, actually, and blame, and I find it so, so sad, even if not totally surprising. So I rather saw the Lee scene as her partly recognizing that fact, as well as acknowledging the fact that she's dying and planning for a transition. I don't want her to be tragic though, the leader who gave them pretty much everything she could and then was forgotten; I want her to get her justification in the end. *begs show* I suppose what I really want, regardless of what happens next, is a recognition of the years she spent bleeding for them, even if there'd be something very Laura about her not getting it and not needing it to have it all have been worth it. (Am I more of a Laura apologist than I thought? Heh.)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I suppose what I really want, regardless of what happens next, is a recognition of the years she spent bleeding for them, even if there'd be something very Laura about her not getting it and not needing it to have it all have been worth it. (Am I more of a Laura apologist than I thought? Heh.)

Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes.

Like you say, Laura wouldn't need it, but maybe what I need, as a viewer, is at least for Laura to believe this - to think what she did was worth it; for that to be signalled to the viewer even if the other characters in the show never see her as quite...her again.

And I am probably the biggest Laura apologist ever and refuse to apologise for it.

[chaila.livejournal.com]

I think one of my favorite things about her is that she wouldn't want us to be apologists, not really. I think she'd be very pleased if we were able to remain horrified by her. Sekritly, nothing makes her happier than that somebody gets to hold onto some idealism. :) OH LAURA.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm glad I entertained. :) And...I don't know why I found Tigh so creepy! I wasn't expecting to or anything, and I still WUV him but yeah. Then again, I had the same response when I watched the S4.0 deleted scenes and saw him holding Nicky. I was like "OMG TIGH WITH A BABY THAT SO ADORA...actually that's kinda creepy." So possibly I'm just weird...

Yes to every word of this. I was almost relieved that we didn't get more Laura in this episode because I hate feeling so uncertain about her, and at least when they don't show her, they can't screw her up. And then that thought itself made me want to cry.

Oh, honey. *clings to you* I know just what you mean.

And I have to be honest, I really don't want to see Laura rattle off all her mistakes, because, like you, I think she's already killing herself for "failing." And that breaks my heart because she didn't fail. She got them there and it was frakked but that's...not her fault. Who the hell else had a better idea?

I think that Roslin probably would see a lot of the wrong things she's done as 'mistakes' (and some of the right things, like the election) but I only think she really regrets that election. Well...maybe other things but that election most of all.

The point is, Laura Roslin has a strong catalogue of her sins and recounting them to appease the mob, to vindicate the mob in their desire to blame someone helps no one. And will quite possibly shatter Laura. Because she already believes everything they are saying is true in her bones.

As you say, we saw some of her grabbing the wheel again in The Oath because there was no one else. But she no longer believes that she's a good person to be in charge that that's...ugh. Like you, I desperately need vincdication of her character, or her choices. Not a white-washing of the babies she stole and people she airlocked and elections she stole and didn't steal, just...I need the end message to not be: Laura Roslin, destroyed herself getting everyone to Earth so she quit, lay down, and never really got back up again.

Not unless that storyline gets some serious and depressing attention rather than being passed off as some "this is the way of things," "time to retire now," BS.

Also, I would love to read any Laura post you made. I often feel like I'm a little poorly-read in wider BSG fandom circles and I learned early on that my opinion of Laura (as in, I would shamelessly support BASICALLY ANYTHING she did) was not that of many people and kind of didn't go looking for the opposing viewpoint, so I confess that I'm not really aware of what wider fandom thinks of Laura these days. I'm also a little frightened to find out... o_O

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

I had this crazy notion today that the whole Baltar religion storyline has been so that Caprica can step in. She's going to with them now and it makes total sense to me that Caprica will become their spiritual leader.

There's someone on my flist thinking that the dying leader is the Galactica itself. Seems like an interesting thought. Thinking on the Galactica becoming a Cylon hybrid, someone also mentioned the idea of Sam turning into something like the Hybrid and hooking up to the ship. Which is a cool thought.

I've missed Lee and Laura. I think they were hampered by Laura being upset with him over representing Baltar in the trial.

I, too, liked seeing Tigh happy and smiling.

One of the pilots, Bulldog, is named Daniel too.

I quite like this Ellen. I want to get drunk and hang out with her.

Cavil was just so angry. This is one of the first times I liked him. I think it's because he was displaying so many basic human traits. He was angry like a little child, but spoke about it like an adult. Cavil and Ellen are where it's at.

I think Cavil named the FF when talking to Ellen and Boomer was in the background, so I think she knows who they are.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OMG, Caprica taking over as crazy preacher lady would be awesome. Not least because I'm completely confused about where her religion lies these days. *loves*

I've seen lots of speculation about Galactica being the final cylon somehow so I guess it makes sense that people would now speculate about it being the dying leader. It'd certainly be interesting, but my initial instinct is it comes under one of those "cute" twists that's more "clever" than actually good for the story. But this show could probably sell me anything.

I'm still irked with Laura over holding a grudge against Lee for so long when she forgave Adama for casting the freakin' deciding vote! But yeah, I think that was tricky. Although in some ways, it actually put him back on her radar since before that they hadn't really...spoken in a whole season cus he was sulking with her for ordering Cain's assassination! Oh...'ship that will never see the light of air time.

I hope that Bulldog (I think his name is Danny Novacek?) doesn't end up being Daniel. I think that'd be a little boring and would, irritatingly, make Hero an actual, relevant episode. BOO!

Plus I tend to assume that Bulldog died at some point because he went off for like R&R or whatever and never came back because I guess they couldn't get/didn't want the actor back so it's kind of weird that a pilot with a very specific skillset has just been chilling out in the fleet for over a year. Maybe he was on Pixis.

I don't like drinking, but I TOTALLY want to hang out with you AND Ellen when you're drunk. Also maybe Tigh. But only maybe. He's kind of a mean drunk.

Also GOOD POINT about Boomer being present for Ellen's big speech about what he did to the other FF (where she mentioned everyone except Tory) so yeah, I do think you're right about that.

[obsessive-a101.livejournal.com]

I absolutely adored Dean Stockwell's performance as Cavil - it was just so... right.

Also, this Ellen's performance grew on me though the episode as well, especially, at the end where we see some of the old!Ellen's attitude.

As for the Laura/Lee scene, I kind of adored that. (^_^)" Both actors rocked the scene, and I actually... really didn't think of AR in the episode (except the scenes where Adama is indulging and the metaphor of Galactica and Laura as the she in his life - dying and wasting away), and in that scene, I was just completely focused on the interaction between Laura and Lee - the interaction I've missed since the early seasons (Captain Apollo expression on her face!).

I felt that her stepping back was shadowed in the scene with three distinct sections for me: 1) she's tired, bone-tired exhaustion, looking at just the way Mary held herself in the scene, 2) her guilt concerning the Quorum - Laura's grief there was beautiful and also, the feeling I got by her letting Lee take more of the reins lies in the "new order" sort of factor - just as the old system and Quorum has been destroyed, she's removing herself so something new can take her place, and 3)her health, I don't know if it's just me, but I thought that one main reason she was stepping down was because of her health, especially with that hacking cough she gave near the end of the scene and Lee's expression as he watched her.

[obsessive-a101.livejournal.com]

Also, I just got to reading comments above, and have I ever mentioned how much I love reading the Laura convos between you, [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com], and [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com]? Because I do, because as much as I love her character, I've always been fascinated by my own reactions to her and other people's as well. I find it so very interesting when I come across people who avidly hate her as well as the people who adore here, and I want to understand how she inspires such extreme reactions and feelings, and I... I'm trusting the show at the moment to deal with her character arc well, and I'm also trusting in Mary's positive reaction to the series' end as an offer of hope. However, I will admit, I would be quite... angry if she just gets passed over. I am also intrigued by something mentioned by Mary for the future episodes as reported by fans who attended the SF Ball.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was so relieved at the Laura/Lee scene largely because there was that...delicate, determined, sorrowful and understated acting that I love from Mary McDonell that I haven't seen so much of lately with the melodrama and romangst.

Also WORD about Dean Stockwell. Awesome!

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the time line. I think I gots it now 8much head scratching* yeah... i think I got it. Hm. No wait.. who made the tribe of Cylons that were on kobol 3000 years ago? And they were the Five? How many copies of the Five existed? Were there copies? There doesn't seem to be any indication of such...? Meanwhile, the Eight have many copies. Who's decision was it to allow for that?

Cable cut out during Lee/Roslin so I missed that whole section. :-/

I am hoping they will return to the issue of the mutiny and the overall unease over the Cylons within the next episode or so. i will forgive them for skipping over it due to the urgency of Sam's situation.

I really loved Sam/Kara here. I really loved that, while she had her greedy moment, she was still very much concerned for him from the moment he'd been shot.

If the Centurions went throug hall this trouble to try to build their own humanoids and to destroy their makers, there really should be greater input from them after Cavil's lobotomy. I know the ones with Cavil will have no say, but it would be interesting to see more interaction with them.

You say Ellen treats the Centurions with such respect. How so? I found her treatment of the one who helped her ot be a bit haughty and sarcastic.

Ellen as the Borg Queen threw me at first and I couldn't buy it, but she played it well and in the end, I am quite fond of her.

Thank you for the preview for next week. Tory is once again doing what I suspect she's been trying to do all this time: take her place as leader and walk away from the humans. None of the Cylons on the Basestar are leader-quality, so I'm looking forward to a Tory/Ellen show down.

Can Cylon ceiling wax also serve as toothpaste? I'm so glad he didn't brush his teeth this time. SRSLY.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Right! I think I can answer your questions. In the episode, the question of who made the Thirteenth Tribe on Kobol is not answered, but in Ellen's cut monologue she indicates that the Twelve Tribes on Kobol "stole fire" from the Gods and made the Cylon and for that everyone was exiled from Paradise (with the Twelve going to the Colonies and the Thirteenth going to Earth). Whether there was also human/Cylon violence involved in the exodus I don't know.

The Cylon Thirteenth Tribe who went to Earth were not the Five. They were other models (presumably but not necessarily, hoardes of copies the way we have now). Once they got to Earth they eventually started procreating biologically meaning that resurrection fell out of use and they stopped all looking the same. Essentially the "Five" are the only five survivors of Earth's armageddon, and are just as unique as any five random humans because they were born rather than copied.

I don't know why the Five decided to make the humanoid Colonial-originating Cylon as multiples copies of a limited number of models. Perhaps resources? Perhaps stylistic request of the Centurions? Perhaps because that was the way the Thirteenth tribe used to be before they began to procreate? It doesn't say.

The Laura/Lee scene was pretty cool but you didn't really miss much except Laura telling Lee to assemble a new Quorum, and Lee saying maybe they should abandon the Colonial representation because they're not really Capricans and Piconese anymore, they're from Galactica or from Colonial One and they should acknowledge that. Which I'm in favour of if there's some form of elected representative from each ship. Not so much if it's just randomly allowed to be the ship captains.

I'm not sure we really know what the motivations of the Centurions during the war were. But yeah, there is an irony that Cavil wanted justice for his enslaved ancestors and decided to fight that war by...enslaving his ancestors to do it for him.

I don't know why I read the scene with Ellen and the Centurion that way, but I did. Like, I took her "thank you, you're very kind," to be genuine? And her request it make 'human' contact with her by helping her to be something they're not often asked to do and so I think she was trying to reassure it because it was hesitant? But I could be wrong...

OMG TORY/ELLEN SHOW DOWN. I hope there are punches...

Also, YES. NO TOOTHBRUSHING. THANK YOU CYLON GOD.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Ooooh okay so the Five aren't original, really. Like, they weren't made by humans, they were born from Cylons that were, way back, made by humans. And this all explains why there are only single copies of these Five.

So. Humans made Centurions and then the Thirteenth humanoids? The Thirteenth went their own way while the humans took their centurions with them to the Colonies, but they Centurions wanted their humanoid buddies back and rebelled and such?

I don't know why the Five decided to make the humanoid Colonial-originating Cylon as multiples copies of a limited number of models. Perhaps resources? Perhaps stylistic request of the Centurions?

While the Five seem to be more human than the Eight, they are still robots deep down, so I could attribute that, as well as the specifics of the archetypes chosen for each model as their 'robotic' thinking. Plus they were working with the Centurions, who are definitely more 'robotic' (in spite of their religious aspect) to create these models.

L/L and politics: I'm glad to hear they aren't simply going to revert to what was, since that clearly wasn't working nor is it appropriate for the situation they are in. But they are still able to reflect the voice of the people, which is, of course necessary. I am content with this compromise. They may proceed.

The motivations for the war? Well, clearly the Centurions were watching Bubblegum Crisis.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yes! I think that's it! Except for the Centurions. I think that either the Thirteenth Tribe took the Centurions with them from Kobol, or there just weren't any on Kobol (though that would seem odd as they're present in all the other "origin stories" for the humanoid models).

But the Twelve Tribes went the Colonies without any Centurions, and developed them in the years leading up to the First Cylon War.

I think the reason that the Colonials developed Centurions that were similar, but not identical to the Earth Thirteenth Tribe Centurions is one of those "cycle of time, all of this has happened before and will happen again," things.

But I'm pretty sure that Centurions weren't present throughout Colonial history.

Aaaah, Bubblegum Crisis. Another anime people keep telling me I need to watch! ;)

[metatxt.livejournal.com]

First a linky comment, then I'll read again and write a *real* one.

Cuz OMFGS YOU CALLED DANIEL WHICH I THINK MAKES *YOU* A SEKRIT CYLON/CYLON AND FLIPPER'S LONG-LOST CUZ.

Annnnd pretty soon after your post, star_lace wrote a BSG Kara-is-a-cylon-cylon theory entry with ALMOST IDENTICAL theorizing. Which means, while I've been trying to formulate some sort of response, my brain keeps yelling "omgs theory twins!" and so I have to point you to her post.

whew. ok now I can go formulate *my* thoughts.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OMG WE ARE THEORY GENIUSES AND TOTALLY FLIPPER AND KARA'S LONG-LOST COUSINS!

I have to go read that!

Also, looking forward to your comments. I am a tiny bit less worried about Flipper (although still seriously worried) because I read a Tricia Helfer interview where she said she was "very happy" with where they left Caprica Six even though she went through a lot of "emotional upheaval" which like...doesn't preclude awfulness but I trust Helfer's opinions so maybe even if they do something DUMB there'll be some kind of payoff? *hopes*

[cyborganize.livejournal.com]

YOU ARE ACREEPABLE.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well of COURSE I'm adorable, but how am I creepy? And is it the good kind of creepy like Hera creepy or the bad kind like pornstache!Adama creepy?

ETA: this is what I get for replying when I've forgotten what I even posted. Yes. Okay. I'm creepy, though technically I'm not the creepy one, it's the signals the One True Cylon God keeps beaming into my brain.

[cyborganize.livejournal.com]

LOLOL.

"I'm not creepy!" says the girl who loves trans-temporal robot incest and violence-based messianic domesticity and telepathically predicts familial mythology!

definitely Hera-style creepy, though. <3

[metatxt.livejournal.com]

First - I love you for writing out the retcon so clearly. I still haven't had a chance to rewatch, and holy frakking frell, that was a lot of information at once.

Laura. I saw *half* of that scene in a sneak-preview clip and really freaked out. It's astounding how much better it plays once we've seen her and Lee mourn the quorum more. That said, it does nothing to assuage my Laura Roslin characterization issues this season. You're so right about the metatextual problem. If she had left the presidency in 4.0, the season where we actually saw her dealing with her illness, it might've felt right. But, aside from A/R (which does make this whole thing seem like, I haz my man; who cares about the rest of it), she has given up on her recovery as well. And coming on the heels of saving the fleet for what was definitely presented as "I will act the role of president for Adama, but the fleet no longer truly concerns me," I just... I can't believe that they're asking us to believe that *this* is Laura. Because, it ISN'T. Even if she's lost it because of disappointment in Earth, even if she's coming to terms with her mortality, even if she is questioning what human/cylon relationships should look like, well... at the very least there's more to it than they're showing. The fact is if Laura characterization resonated in any way that felt authentic, we wouldn't feel the need for more information to support what they're telling us.

As always, I love the Laura/Lee relationship, and for that the exchange was pitch perfect. But, without context, it's difficult for me to love it in any form.

Cylon runner. I DO enjoy Ellen Tigh 2.0. I suspect that is because they stole a lot of Laura's awesome and gave it to her. I am somewhat concerned about Ellen 1.0 is a total sexpot, and Ellen 2.0 has become cylon-mother. If I'm generous, I can call it a shift of personality based on a shift of knowledge (either she was acting out before, or she takes her role as F5 pretty srsly, IDK). I'm hoping next episode offers some Ellen integration, cuz as much as I enjoy Ellen 2.0, I'm having a hard time reconciling the personality transplant. As best I can tell, the only commonality is social pwnage.

Ellen's characterization DOES raise quite a few issues re: knowledge for me. Besides the fact that how she behaves directly corresponds with her self-awareness and a larger-world-perspective, we're still left with the question: why does she know who she is once she resurrects? Does this mean that if any of the other F5 died and had the ability to resurrect, they would suddenly know everything they had forgotten? She doesn't wake in the goo bath, freak out, and then say "omgs I'm a cylon." She KNOWS. There are a dozen ways to explain it, but I'd like a canon explanation to really explicate what they're saying about the relationships between knowledge, rebirth, behavior, etc.

Now for flailing: OMFGS YES I KNEW THERE WERE 8 (though I feel like at this point, didn't everybody?) and CYLON RUNNER WAS AWWWESOME. I love that Cavil is even *more* of a sociopath than we ever knew, including mommy issues! But more, I love that his embodiment angst is so incredibly human, even if he won't see that.

- Yes. Yes, Cavil. Your body is absurd. We are all absurd. We exist in an absurd universe. THIS HAD ME LOLLING SO LOUD PEOPLE IN THE OTHER ROOM WERE LIKE, WUHSOFUNNY?!

I STILL cannot believe how creepy awesome it is that you intuitively went with Daniel = #7, anddd I think you already know that I desperately want Kara to be the first cylon/cylon hybrid.

Oh and Caprica/Tigh scene was definitely creepy. I am SO TIRED of them not showing me the things I want to see; why don't we get more internal Caprica information? even if it's not presented in her POV (although at this point, i think actually playing a scene from her POV would be a nice gesture to show the blurring of cylon-human us-them lines...) I just... *sigh*

I am not as invested in 8s as I feel like I should be, but I *reallllllly* want an Athena/Boomer scene this week.

*breathes*

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering if the sketchy treatment of Laura is part of a larger pattern. Because to be honest, Laura has a habit of kicking insane amounts of ass during the first half of a season, and then getting lost in the background during the second half until the clusterfrak of a finale when she reclaims the crown of pure awesome. And most of the time, I end up having to retcon it by working out her motivations myself.

So for instance, S2 starts with her fomenting mutiny all the way through to pwning Cain, then until the whole election theft finale, she really doesn't do anything except wander around being vaguely Presidential (complex abortion banning notwithstanding, but even there it was a b-plot). Like, she's not the dying leader anymore, and all sorts of crap, and yet we don't...get inside her head; aren't allowed near her during her increasing dictatorial behaviour until suddenly we find out - pretty much after the fact - that she rigged an election.

Then we're back with her through New Caprica. But again, back half of season three we know that she's raging like a ragey thing against Baltar, and yeah, we see some of that in that one episode (which like the episode in S2 where she was dying wasn't as awesome as it should have been), but again, she's in the background being vaguely political, distant from us, being ridiculously dictatorial about labour disputes and racism without any real view into her head, until we discover, at the end, after the fact, she has cancer again.

So I wonder if it's the same deal here, just heightened because the fact we should be in her head is all the more clear?

S'not an excuse for it, just...an observation of a pattern.

I think Ellen's going to be quite enlightening next week. I do think that there were hints of her sensualist nature in this episode, very vaguely (she still wants a drink, and the way she bites into that apple; though obviously layers of metaphor there). And it's telling that she responds to having had sex with, well, her father-and-son very...measuredly, and then even uses it as a weapon against John later by mentioning it to Boomer: I'm wondering if that's relatable to Ellen1.0's more calculated or open attitude to sex?

But in this episode she was so confined and so necessarily focused on her immediate situation and, well, children, it's hard to tell what she's like as herself?

I'm not bothered by the downloading because we know from Eight's situation (in The Hub) that memories get catalogued with every download (and there's a cut scene where D'Anna mentions the Eights not automatically sharing memories on download which suggests a mechanism does exist to automatically download cached memories into the brain of a resurrecting Cylon.) So I guess I figure, there are records of Ellen's memories from the time John asphyxiated her before boxing her. Which he then removed when he set her up like a Boomer, but which she regained automatically when she resurrected a second time because the system downloaded all her memories to her?

It would even make sense for John to set it up that way since what he really wanted was an audience who knew what he meant; what's the point in keeping their spare bodies around for this eventuality if they're not going to know what's going on.

I want Cylon/Cylon Kara MORE THAN CAKE but I fear we will not get it. :(

I would also LOVE MORE SCENES FROM CAPRICA'S perspective. Next week looks pretty Caprica heavy actually, but given my fears for Flipper I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing. :(

I'm not as invested in the Eights as I should be either but WORD OF YES about a Boomer/Athena scene.

Finally, ABSURDITY FOR EVERYONE.

*breathes!*

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

Also, that crack in his quarters is CLEARLY the result of his addiction to CHEWING ON THE SCENERY. Honestly, Adama, your manpain has ruined the ship. I HOPE THE CYLON CEILING WAX STICKS TO YOUR MOLARS NEXT TIME YOU TRY IT.

Ahaha! Yes.

I liked the Laura/Lee scene, but I'm also worried about what's next for her. I do think her quitting had as much to do with her feeling of failure over Earth as her illness, and now holding herself partly responsible for the mutiny. But they'd better give her an amazing mytharc storyline, like, immediately.

They dodged that question this episode by focusing very closely on very few people.

*nods* I'm glad I wasn't a Gaeta fan, because I think I'd be really upset about the way things just moved right on after that. And you're right about all the mutual bitterness.

I really bought their interactions here and I felt so bad for Kara with her terrified apology about being "greedy" because she wanted to be the seven because it would be better than being nothing at all. *flails a little* Sweetheart.

*nod nod nod*

That's so awesome - and creepy - about your fic. Ellen as Kara's mother... someone needs to write that, anyway. I would have issues with Socrata being just a stepmother, instead of the darkness of her abusing her own child out of a twisted need to prepare her. (Not that her motivation would have to change, but it adds another layer.) BUT, it would get Kara some major scenes with new!Ellen and I would love that.

Ron did say in a Q+A that Hera's blood doesn't cure cancer anymore now that she's not a fetus. And... I've heard they don't like to tell the actors major revelations before they read them in the scripts, so maybe they wouldn't tell Katee to react to the name so as to preserve our "shock?" *grasps at straws* I don't know what to do with the hated Nicky retcon, though.

the argument against the only method of the Cylon becoming "better" and "good" is to make them be more human is coming from a "bad" character; that the atheist is the one ultimately responsible for armageddon potentially uncomplexifying the role of a loving God in a religious war;

I hadn't thought of that. I really don't know what they're going to do with "God" ultimately; in some episodes, like this one, he seems like a benevolent force, but the way that theology gets interpreted by characters like Baltar, and more worryingly head!Six (because I think she knows what's up) is pretty sinister. (I was another flood!) Hmm.

How much of that must have been out of his constant desire to prove that he's a machine; these things don't matter.

Total agreement with everything about Cavil and Ellen. I have to believe that the network just wasn't looking all that closely. ;)

Clearly, Cylon-oriented episodes in which Boomer is struggling with her identity, in opposition to a manipulative Cylon authority figure who wants her to shut up and be a good little machine, but ultimately sees her choose to run off with a sexy blonde to turn humanity's world upside down, are WIN

Hee! Good call. :)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Oooh, thanks for the info on Hera's blood. If it was just a "still developing" kind of thing and that she developed a blood type at a certain point *handwave handwave* that could totally the biggest logistical problem in Kara being a hybrid. Her lack of recognition of the name could be due to a number of things, though there's still the metatextual issue of Nicky's retcon. Perhaps it's simply that all hybrids have Big, Huge destinies and he didn't want to write one in for Nicky? Blergh.

I agree that someone needs to writh Ellen and Kara's Mom, (even though I also agree it would be a shame to stepmotherize Socrata) but alas, I have neither the time nor a story-hook. :(

I was quite happy to see in an interview that apparently the writers did see Laura's passing of the baton as having to do with her acknowledging her culpability in the mutiny, but I still would have liked to see more fallout.

And WORD to the point about getting Laura a Mytharc STAT.