I Love Star Wars.

[beccatoria]

I hate the prequels.

Actually, that's not entirely true, but I mostly hate them, and I've never really written out why, at least not here. I'm not the only kid who hated the prequels. Hell, I wasn't exactly a kid when I first saw the movies, impoverished as my childhood was by parents who never thought to show them to me until the cinematic rerelease. But I did see them, as a barely-teenaged girl, and I loved them. And when my not-quite-uncle told me to read the Thrawn Trilogy, I jumped into the Star Wars expanded universe and I never looked back. At times I drifted (and yes, the disinterest the prequels was at least partly responsible at times). At times it pissed me off, or I wondered why I was bothering. But I really don't know how to quit Star Wars. It's...beautiful in its absurd enormity. I don't know of another world that is as expansive and that tries as hard to incorporate every last damn thing into a single quasi-coherent universe, everything from cracked-out 70s Marvel comics to poorly-written, bland books aimed at 7 year olds to sparsely written, epic, brainwarping philosophical novels about torture, to 100% pure-grade action-thrillers. Even in the face of Lucas endlessly trying to reinvent the stuff we love, and writing over it like the kid with the biggest paintbrush yelling that his dad owns the wall anyway.

There's such crap stuck in there, but somehow, Star Wars teaches me the meaning of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

It even gives me some piece of mind about the prequels. Not because it makes them good, but because it helps make them irrelevant. It helps tell other stories around them that build up until in my mind, there are prequel-shaped holes, and the movies are just another hamfisted attempt to convey a piece of history. Just another Glove of Darth Vader masquerading as a Traitor.

Because dear god, those movies were awful. A lot of people think that The Phantom Menace was the worst because it had Jar Jar and a child actor who, well, got stuck with a lot of trash to say and not enough charisma to pull it off, but frankly I think it's the best of the three. It had Qui Gon Jinn and the duel with Darth Maul and a universe that hadn't quite yet been utterly subsumed by CGI. Anakin was kind of annoying and we all hate mini-chlorines and hate mini-chlorines being Anakin's dad even more, probably even more than we all hate Jar Jar which is a LOT, but at least our intrepid hero, the man even Yoda spoke of with quiet awe, wasn't courting girls by stalking them and then declaring that they'd just murdered an entire village including children.

The Phantom Menace was a shittily made movie. Someone needed to edit that sucker with a machete to take out the awful dialogue, and needed to clean up the storytelling so that shit made sense and we didn't cut schizophrenically from Jar Jar's comedy battle-antics to Anakin's quasi-comedy battle antics to Amidala's storming of the palace to Qui Gon's tragic death scene within the space of a minute. Someone needed to rewrite it to make it clear who the main character was, and preferably it would have had a less disjointed structure. But these are signs the movie was badly put together not signs it had terrible, horrible, irreparable underlying issues with its very concept.

Sure, I would have preferred that "When I met your father he was already a great pilot," not refer to a 10 year old race car driver. We all would. But it doesn't fundamentally fuck up the world as much as the epic hero of the saga leering at women who are literally saying, "don't look at me like that, it makes me feel uncomfortable," or screaming about how he just murdered a bunch of children, not even in the movie where he's SUPPOSED to be evil, only to get a hug and be told he's just acting human. UM. No, I'm sorry. Even if someone had just killed my mother and I was a great swordsmaster, I do not think I would consider it fair game to start murdering children who happened to live in the same village as the crime was committed. WTF, man. WTF.

Which I suppose is how we get to Attack of the Clones. The most disappointing movie I have ever seen.

This was the movie that destroyed Anakin Skywalker beyond repair for me. Well, I guess the next film could have saved him but I'm really not sure how.

I think Lucas forgot he was writing the story of a great hero, so that his ultimate fall to the dark side would be an epic tragedy, and instead was obsessed with foreshadowing the fact he would ultimately fall to the dark side, thereby making him a whiny, creepy, psychotic, mass-murdering stalker. You guys think Twilight sets a bad example of romance? Oy.

And on the other side of the equation we have Obi Wan. Who...I don't even know. I can't even critique this movie in terms of its narrative structure, because it...doesn't really have one. That's the difference. Arguments can be leveled at The Phantom Menace because there are improvements to be made. Because it's a film. I...hesitate to call this POS a film. Obi Wan wanders around a cloning facility investigating a mystery that is never solved, chases a bounty hunter to another planet where we learn nothing we didn't know from the opening crawl, then everyone ends up in an arena fight...because.

The central mystery of the movie, the central conflict, is based around this mysterious clone army. But we never find out who ordered it, we're left to assume it must have been Palpatine. Fine....I guess. But then, since Obi Wan spends half the film trying to work out who the hell ordered its creation because someone used a dead dude's alias, isn't that...important? Wouldn't the Senate be like..."Um, where did this readymade army come from?"

This movie has two plots. In one of them Amidala apparently succumbs to stockholm syndrome and falls in love with her psychotic, murderous ex-childhood acquaintance and in the other, Obi Wan investigates a mystery which is never answered or even referenced ever again. And then there's an arena fight. Because.

On the heels of that, is Revenge of the Sith better? Yes, yes it is. For starters, Anakin finally looks better, physically, as Vader, has more quiet power to his voice and physique and is...sort of...if you take into account the deleted scenes, a little less creepy and whiny.

But do I buy the bullshit that it's finally a return to form? Hell no. It's still worse than The Phantom Menace if only by virtue of how disappointing it is.

I think Lucas was going for some kind of Elsinore-like claustrophobia, with Anakin finding every friend he once trusted is hiding things from him while Palpatine plays his only confidant and plays on his fears that his wife may die. But frankly a) Lucas cut all the relevant scenes in order to have Artoo Deetoo beat up a bunch of droids in a comedy sequence, among other inanities, b) I might care more about Anakin's disillusionment with the Council, with Obi Wan and with his wife if previous installments had given me a reason to believe they really cared about each other and c) the visions of his dead wife thing seems...awfully convenient, and more than slightly contrived.

c) is the issue that I know people may disagree on. I guess if you want to set up Anakin for a selfish fall to the dark side, then it's a good enough motivation. Perhaps I'm coming up against that classic fact that there could never have been a fall that would have satisfied everyone. But I always thought it would be...larger somehow. More mystical or more all-encompassing.

I don't know. I think I would have bought it if he'd just killed Mace in accidental desperation, and really was horrified, and so went off to kill the Separatists to bring about peace because, well, it was practical at that point while Palpatine went off and slaughtered the Jedi at the Temple. But then Obi Wan shows up, they fight, Padme dies, and Anakin wakes up in the suit with his wife dead, all the Jedi slaughtered and nothing left but his absolute rage. I think...I could have bought that?

And it's not like I don't want the dark side to be a corrupting force. But there's something disatisfying and, dare I say it, at odds with the initial, Elsinorian attempts at atmospheric claustrophobia the film initially seems to want to build up with "I'll be a Sith then!" leading, within minutes, to child-murdering (though given his antics in AotC maybe I shouldn't be surprised) and choking the one person he did it all to save in the first place.

I can't help but feel that Revenge of the Sith fleeced people with a superficially more "adult" veneer, and the fact we all wanted, so desperately, to feel like his fall to the dark side was epic, the Epic Music, the Emotional Yelling and the Giant Gouts of Lava kind of...shortcut over everything genuine that could have been there.

"You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you," should have broken my heart. But I find it hard to find a single moment in these films where I genuinely felt that Obi Wan and Anakin were brothers.

I'm fairly certain that even for many people who did enjoy Revenge of the Sith, a great deal of the emotional resonance they found in Anakin's final conversion to Darth Vader came from their emotional investment in the original trilogy, not the prequels.

So yeah. The prequels. I hate them. I reject them from my mythology as anything more than badly rendered versions of events.

Because Star Wars, as so many of its media tie-ins will tell you, is a modern myth. It's my mythic cycle, for sure.

But you know what kind of annoys me? The contradiction of the franchise's attempts to monetize that notion. To simultaneously tell us that Star Wars is popular because it taps into something primal and mythic in us, while at the same time telling us that this is due entirely to the genius of George Lucas.

I'm not trying to say that the guy didn't have an amazing idea, or pull off three fantastic movies, and another I can stand to watch without wanting to gouge my eyes out.

But I am saying that if you claim that your success is down to your skill at evoking wider mythic resonances, then claim credit for that skill, not for the wider mythic resonances themselves. Acknowledge your sources. (And yes, A New Hope is a fabulous movie, and I have no moral issue with him stealing large tracts of the plot from The Hidden Fortress, but, you know, he did.)

And most importantly, acknowledge that myths become public property.

Perhaps the greatest measure of the original trilogy's success is that it became so mythic, enormous parts of not only fandom, but the general viewing public, rejected his attempts to bolt on these additions so violently he became, if not an outright disliked, at least one of the most divisive figures in his own following.

So what was the point of this post? I'm not entirely sure. Mainly, I guess, that I love Star Wars. It's mine, and George Lucas can't have it.

Comments

[mymatedave.livejournal.com]

Yes, so many times yes. Have you seen the youtube series which "reviews" episodes 1 and 2?

Very funny, slightly sick, and the guy does also does reviews of other scifi movies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfBhi6qqFLA

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, I know and love this dude, and was considering linking to his stuff in my post but decided against it cus it was long enough anyway. I've been meaning to make this post for a few weeks but it was the release of his Ep II review that kind of kickstarted me into it.

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

I'd been considering Anakin as at least mildly psychopathic from the very first prequel, given how little appropriate emotion he seems to show. His later actions fit in with that assessment, and the "tragedy" of Anakin IMO is that no one seemed to realize that he needed psychological help. It's not that he was naturally bad, just that his moral compass was cracked from childhood, and all the people around him put him in the worst possible situations for someone with that kind of problem.

With that in mind, I think he did feel for Obi-Wan, but more in a "I like you because you pay attention to me" kind of way, even if he didn't admit this to himself. Likewise with Padme. Thus he could say how much he loved them, and really think that he meant it, but then very much not mean it as soon as they were somehow "against" him because the feeling was always rooted in self-interest.

However, despite that I don't just think that for fanwank purposes, I fully acknowledge that the only reason that Revenge of the Sith managed to briefly touch my soul was because of old-trilogy nostalgia. I grew up on the original movies, and finally getting to see broken!Obi-Wan and Darth Vader and Luke and Leia and the musical themes and a new foreshadowing of the upcoming redemption...*sigh* It was epic, at least for a little while.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and I get that perspective, because it's the only one that makes any sense, but it's also kind of...my huge problem with it?

It really hit me when I rewatched the original trilogy and heard the flat-out awe in Yoda's voice, "Mmmm, powerful Jedi was he, powerful Jedi." When I heard Obi Wan's sorrow at failing him.

I...didn't want the prequels to be about Anakin Skywalker, psychopath. That, in itself, undercuts a lot of the majesty and wonder and terror and redemption of the character in the original trilogy?

It's a consistent, plausible reading of what the prequels gave us, but also a fundamentally disappointing one. Especially since the movies don't acknowledge his psychosis which makes watching him as the main character a very disjointed experience. In addition to wondering why such wise people as the Jedi are presented as didn't know that Anakin needed a lot of help.

So idk, I do share your old trilogy nostalgia; we want so badly to feel that epicness. Ep III almost got me too - Duel of the Fates is one of the few times the new Williams' score hits it out of the park. But ultimately, I guess I just couldn't sustain the suspension of disbelief. :(

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

That, in itself, undercuts a lot of the majesty and wonder and terror and redemption of the character in the original trilogy?

Does it? I was never so much interested in Anakin/Darth Vader as a person, but in how other people related to him, even before I'd seen the first prequel movie. Who he is doesn't matter to me, so I didn't even blink at the notion that he was always screwed up. And what rang true about all these "wise people" missing his problems throughout the series was that they were all willing to be blinded by the (apparently positive) prophecy about him. And that makes sense to me because it's very human, and the cornerstone of many human tragedies.

Though, I do have a talent for suspending disbelief when something tries to play on my emotional heartstrings, because I like feeling that something is epic even if some people can point out reasonable ways in which it's only trying to be epic. So my opinion is going to be severely biased regardless.

[i_kender]

Yes god yes. I love Star Wars, hate the prequels, and like some of the Extended Universe stuff.

Two questions: One, I've never seen the deleted scenes in the prequels. Are they any good? Do they add anything to the story?

Two- the Clone Wars cartoon. Have you seen it? Is that any good? Does it, in fact, add anything more to the brotherhood/fellow warriors aspect of Anakin and Obi Wan's friendship?

And yes, I even love the Marvel Star Wars comics from the 80s, and think my twelve year old self could have written better prequels/sequels. Because I *loved* those films and that universe when I was a kid. It was almost my religion.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

*clings to you* STAR WARS! PREQUELS!

Okay, the deleted scenes from the prequels are a mixed bag but there are a few massive dropped balls in terms of the things Lucas cut. Frankly most of the prequel deleted scenes aren't that interesting, just stuff like an extended pod race or an extended sequence of arriving in Theed in the Bongo Water Taxi Thing. Similarly in Attack of the Clones my main memory is of loads of extra shit about Padme and Anakin on Naboo which I remember being cringe-inducing but not quite as awful as the stuff in the actual movie. I DO however remember a wonderful scene where when Anakin and Padme arrive on Geonosis to save Obi Wan from Dooku, instead of getting caught in the ridiculous droid factory sequence, what appears to happen is that they just walk in under Padme's guise of Senator and ask for Obi Wan's release in a formal capacity. Of course Dooku says tough shit and has them arrested. But hey, I'd take it over the Computer Game Sequence we got.

So most of the deleted scenes that have any POINT are in Episode III. There are three scenes that set up that Padme is working with Bail Organa and some other senators to form the proto-rebellion since Palpatine is gutting the constitution. She can't tell anyone about her involvement and her requests to consult a Jedi she trusts (i.e. Anakin) are rebuffed. Meanwhile, Anakin in another of these scenes, is there when Padme and the other senators meet with Palpatine to ask him to stop gutting the constitution and Palpatine points out to Anakin that Padme is hiding something, can't he sense it? (Which of course, he can).

Apparently Lucas cut these scenes to give a closer focus on Anakin's story but...I just do not get why because it actually undercuts it considerably. Not only do these scenes actually give Padme some kind of plot and something to do other than wait around to die, but they're also really important to Anakin's characterisation as suddenly his belief that Padme might be hiding things from him is TRUE rather than insane psychotic stalker jealousy.

Similarly there's a scene between Yoda, Mace Windu and Obi Wan where they're discussing how they flat out suspect the Chancellor of some hinky shit but they really can't do anything without proof because the Jedi would end up having to take over transitionally to ensure peace and that would look super dodgy politically, and this basically sets up why they accept Anakin onto the Council as Palpatine asked - i.e. as Obi Wan later explains in the actual movie, to get him to spy on the Chancellor. We lose the nuance of the Jedi's motivations, which again makes Anakin's feelings of being maneuvered and used by them a little more real.

So yeah, I think there were some decent deleted scenes in, at least, Episode III. But not really enough to save the movie.

Clone Wars cartoon! I have, indeed, seen most of it. The movie isn't very good, but the series is much better, and, in fact, I kind of enjoy it. I won't lie and say it redeems the prequels because it doesn't. And frankly they give Anakin a padawan and while I like that character well enough, I have some issues with how they'll resolve that in wider canon. But yeah, one of the reasons I like the cartoon is that they've finally, more or less, allowed Anakin to be a hero. There is friendship between Obi Wan and Anakin, but I can't stand the guy who voice acts Obi Wan (he seems to have one inflection and one inflection only...) so I kind of...miss out on that a bit. Also the droids are kind of comedically stupid and General Grievous is a bit of a Saturday Morning Cartoon one step away from twirling his mustachios, but honestly it's the best depiction of Anakin Skywalker I've seen so far.

MARVEL COMICS! Ah, man, those things are awesome. Did you know they brought Lumiya back recently as one of the villains in a recent series?

and think my twelve year old self could have written better prequels/sequels.

Word.

It was almost my religion.

Word.

[i_kender]

Bwahaha... but will you watch the animated Star Wars sitcom if it involves creative input from Seth Green and Robot Chicken? ;)

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44524

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I keep meaning to watch the series though because Gendi Tarta --- um.. the guy who did Samurai Jack was involved.

The Clone Wars cartoon movie was horrible, though. Fits into nothing and seemed to be just an excuse to whore the Star Wars name some more. The only thing I liked about it was Cody the Stormtrooper. I appreciate what Becca says below about Anakin's heroic side being revealed finally, where three epic movies utterly failed to do so, but a lot of that is through his Padawan, who, while lovely -- well, she doesn't fit into the canon of the rest of it all. If showing this side of Anakin was the intent, then I suppose it was acceptable, but it still comes off as an apology for the prequels' failure to do so.

Then again, maybe she does. One of the things that really really pissed me off about the whole evil Anakin thing is that the entire Jedi Council was blissfully unaware of it all. Obi Wan can be forgiven because of blind fatherly love, but Yoda? It's like he was constantly distracted by far more important things "Hmm not certain am I he could be responsible for training a Jedi. Lots of anger I sense -- hey are those cookies clones? Dude! Share! What? Give Anakin a Padawan? Yeah yeah sure go ahead."

AS for the prequels? I like them only because they give me more to do in the Lego Star Wars Complete Saga. It also made for funny segments in Robot Chicken (look it up, Becca... it totally explains why everyone was so forgiving of him chopping up little Jedi chilluns).

Otherwise, fail for so many reasons, not the least of which is George's conceit. He at least had the decency to have other people write or help him write the original movies. Friends who could say "George, Jar Jar isn't that funny." Friends who could say "George, I know this is your movie and you really WANT to have Jar Jar in it still, but reducing his role to appease the haters only to then have Amidala place the fate of the universe's political decisions in his hands isn't good plot."

And most importantly, friends who could say, "George, that's not romance, that's just ...ew." As in, when I went to see it, I along with the audience cringed so much that you could feel the utter discomfort in the air. I imagine the actors had to go take long hot showers to wash off that dirty feeling after that "seduction" scene.

When Star Wars originals were rereleased into the theatre, along with the stupid additions like extra circles around explosions, I realized then that George was just whoring his baby and it made me sad. But I still went to see because, as I said then, even if he made a movie with just stick figures and called it Star Wars, us fans would be there.

I wish he had done that. Instead, we had a lot of fancy CG plus convoluted plot and shallow characters. If he'd taken a page out of James Cameron's notes, he'd learn that you can't have all three of those devices in one movie, much less three.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

LEGO STAR WARS. THE ONLY REDEEMING FACTOR THE PREQUELS HAVE. *nods sagely*

As to the cartoon, the Genndy Tarta-whatever-his-name-is one is actually pretty neat. It's split into two volumes. The first is 20 five minute(ish) episodes, very strongly in the Samurai Jack style. While Anakin is still kind of whiny here, it's at least toned down a bit and the cartoon itself is fun and gives a LOT of other Jedi the spotlight too.

The second volume is about the same length but is instead made up of five 12 - 15 minute episodes. This features Anakin getting knighted, and is a bit more arc-ish, and introduces General Grievous and basically tells the story of *right* up to the start of the Ep III movie. I really like this volume though, because this has a good portrayal of Anakin and a really interesting and well-done adventure where he frees a bunch of mutated slave worker critters while having a totally awesome tripped out vision quest of his arm growing and eating everything he loves. It's just the right level of creepy Vader foreshadowing while keeping an element of mystic fear and cyborgy-ness to his fall.

As to the 3D cartoon, I totally agree that the movie was crap. The TV series is...I won't say much better but it is better. I also agree, though, about the padawan. She totally doesn't fit with ANYTHING else in either the movies or the expanded universe.

The problem I have is that I think Anakin having a padawan would be really, really good for him. He has issues with authority, with not being trusted, but he's incredibly loyal. Having the Council trust him by giving him a padawan and having to also handle that responsibility and form that kind of loyal relationship from the other side would, I think, have a very sobering and consolidating effect on his character. Unfortunately this totally undercuts the stupid reasons that the movies give us for his fall to the dark side. So...I dunno.

I guess my feeling is that the cartoon contradicts the prequels, but frankly, even with the flaws it has, the cartoon is better, so I'll take that?

I imagine the actors had to go take long hot showers to wash off that dirty feeling after that "seduction" scene.

BWAHAHAHA. Dude, I felt like I ought to do that after just WATCHING it.

[rjsteamboat76.livejournal.com]

i much prefered the novelization of ROTS. that being said, my all time favorite SW stuff is KT's Republic Commando series and the follow up novel Imperial Commando:501st. i know she's not exactly popular cuz she does have a habit of being a bit snarky with fans at times, but it's still my favorite. how can you not love it, when she gave us the Mando culture. and yes, that means i reject what dave filoni did with Mandalore on TCW. meh, i'll stop raambling. heh.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yes, the novelisation of ROTS is pretty amazing for what it manages with the material, but Matthew Stover is phenomenal.

I do understand the popularity of Traviss' work, but I can't get on board with her for two reasons. Firstly because I don't actually think her stuff is that great. I understand why people like her Mandos, but frankly I find them tedious and overly perfect. I actually really like Mandalorians, even the ones that are written based on the history and culture she invented, such as the ones that appear in John Jackson Miller's Knights of the Old Republic comic. They're awesome, shockhead warriors. But Traviss' guys are superbest at everything, morally superior to everyone, and so holier than though I want to punch them in the face.

Traviss harps on endlessly in interviews and on her own various web presences about how she wants to turn a critical eye back on the Jedi, etc., but has never managed to do so with her own guys. In fact, her novels don't smack so much to me of a nuanced interpretation of ethics so much as a role-reversal where Mandalorians can do not wrong and Jedi are all elitist out-of-touch jerks.

In one of her most recent novels, Revelation, Boba Fett is selling weapons to both sides of a war he is simultaneously judging the Jedi for failing to prevent. The Mandalorians tell Jaina that the Jedi suck because they are too removed from their families, from people, that they fail because they don't have this filial loyalty, and the SAME TIME they're judging Jaina and making her feel like crap because they accuse the Jedi Order of playing favourites (presumably based on filial loyalty), and refusing to take out Jaina's brother who is causing the war in the first place. And none of this is ever really dealt with in the text. At a certain point the number of contradictions reach breaking point and I can no longer take the book seriously. It all seems to be an excuse for the Mandalorians to act wronged about something.

The second reason I can't stand her is her personal conduct. She's more than snarky with fans. She's flat out insulting, and I have a limited tolerance for being insulted by someone whose life I am financing. Well, was, I don't buy her stuff anymore. I find her comparison of fan behaviour with islamic extremists, and extended use of, if not coining of, the word "talifan" to be in extremely poor taste. I find her continued armchair analysis of fans and diagnosis of us as having various serious mental disorders to be downright offensive. And frankly, anyone who's response, on their official FAQ to, "why don't you like Jedi?" is, "WHY ARE YOU A NAZI?!" (literally, this is what she says) is more infuriating than I have time for.

I really do respect the fact that you like her stories - as I said, they're not my cup of tea, but that's an issue of personal taste, and I don't mean to jump on you about it. I just have very, very strong feelings about the unacceptability of her public conduct, so I'm glad that she won't be writing any more novels.

[sache8.livejournal.com]

I actually really enjoy The Phantom Menace. For an intricate handful of reasons that sort of congeal into this distant fondness. The first and foremost is just a good association with that period in my life. I was a senior in high school, it was Star Wars and we all had such high hopes and I skipped school and waited in line for seven hours on a Wednesday for tickets and had the time of my life geeking it up with geeks. For those three months, everything was one giant plus in my life, and Star Wars was only the icing on the cakes. Second, TPM gave me Naboo and handmaidens. I don't think I have to elaborate further on that point. Third, I actually did not mind Jar Jar. Was he over-the-top? Yes. Did it strain all rational credibility that any leader in their right mind would make him a 'bombad general'? Hell, yes. But I guess I'm just the kind of person who has spent so much of my life being the awkward one in the room that I don't mind having an awkward fool in the gang. Not every alien sidekick can be as cool as Chewbacca. It is absolutely impossible, but I really think that is why I think Jar Jar got such a vehement backlash from the fandom. And finally, I wasn't disappointed that the movie was so introductory. It was supposed to be part one of a six part story. When is the beginning ever the most amazing part? I wasn't looking to be blown away, I was looking to be titillated. I even had a perverse fondness for the pod race because it was the perfect excuse to take a non-harried bathroom break, which meant I got to drink as huge a pop as I wanted during the movie.

(Mostly, though, it's the Naboo and handmaiden thing. ;-))

The absolutely only things I liked about Attack of the Cheesy Dialogue were:

The quadruple-layered conversation between Obi-Wan and Jango on Kamino.
Padme's wardrobe.
John Williams' composition of Across the Stars.
The teensy moment where GL let Beru say something.
Gazing at Bail Organa.

But I can't watch the movie anymore. I just can't. It hurts too much.

RotS is only slightly more tolerable because I loved the performance that Ewan was able to salvage from his material. And the scene with Luke and Leia being delivered to their respective families at the end (especially Luke, because Beru is a SW character very intimately dear to my heart, and I had written a whole fanfic about her life story and in that moment it was like my story leapt off my page and onto the screen and I was literally in tears).


... but yeah. Basically what all you said.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I really don't have anything like the hate for The Phantom Menace that many do. When it came out and there was huge backlash, I was...well okay, I thought, it wasn't as good as the originals (and unlike you I really do dislike Jar Jar) but it didn't ruin anything. And the podrace was fun!

I think the best way I can put it is that even though, leaving the cinema after going to see The Phantom Menace, I would have admitted that there were parts of the movie I didn't like, things that made me go "bzuh?" and stuff that was just badly handled, I was buzzing. I was 16, I went with my dad and my 14 year old friend and we spent the entire walk home re-enacting the Qui Gon/Obi Wan/Darth Maul duel (I got to be Darth Maul).

When I left after watching Revenge of the Sith, my overwhelming feeling was relief that at least it was better than the last one.

And I think that's the difference between the two in a nutshell.

I don't know if you've ever seen any of them, but I think another reason I'm still more kindly disposed to TPM is that I have a few fan edits of it that are actually...really good. But I have yet to find fan edits of either of the other prequels that actually affect anything film-saving.

For example this - http://fanedit.org/5140/ - dubs both the Nemoidians and Jar Jar and the rest of the Gungans to very interesting effect. It turns Jar Jar into, well, still more or less the same character but a lot less irritating and more entertaining. And dubbing the Nemoidians allows the entire plot to revolve around the idea that it's not just taxes but the outlawing of slavery that they're protesting and that people are being rounded up in death camps making the whole thing feel a little more urgent. Stuff like the midichlorians and the immaculate conception are cut and there's a lot of nifty editing changes such as making the podrace snappier and putting some of the Original Trilogy score back into big moments. There are some great pieces in John Williams' prequel scores, but in general, I was disappointed we they diverged as much as they did from the originals.

Anyway, it's an interesting alternate take on things.

But I can't watch the movie anymore. I just can't. It hurts too much.

This I empathise with.

Also, I remember leading up to AotC seeing some interview with the actors who played Owen Lars and Beru Whitesun and obviously in hindsight they were just trying to be generous and tease a little information to the viewer, but at the time it made it sound like they had larger roles than they did and I was always a little disappointed that never happened. :( Yay Beru!

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Anakin's quasi-comedy battle antics

One of the cable stations was running a Star Wars marathon here a few weeks ago and I caught bits and pieces of the prequels. Anakin accidentally destroying a huge ass trade federation ship while highly trained pilots can barely save themselves is insulting on so many levels.

I think Lucas forgot he was writing the story of a great hero, so that his ultimate fall to the dark side would be an epic tragedy, and instead was obsessed with foreshadowing the fact he would ultimately fall to the dark side, thereby making him a whiny, creepy, psychotic, mass-murdering stalker. You guys think Twilight sets a bad example of romance? Oy.

WORD. Though an argument could be made that George just has no clue how to create romance and therefore should, by law, be prohibited from ever writing it. This is the man who allowed a brother and sister to makeout in order to make her future husband jealous. So Anakin being the poster boy for stalkers and Padme thinking it's cute is not so surprising. Wanna bet 'Every Breath You Take' was their song?

I've always believed that Lucas was so hell bent on creating another trilogy he was incapable of realizing he could have told his story in two films. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in fandom willing to argue we needed to see a ten year old Anakin. And while I completely agree with you that most of 'Attack of the Clones' is pointless, Lucas seemed to see it as the middle of a giant epic and therefore it didn't need to work on it's own, which might be OK for TV, but not for film.

"You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you," should have broken my heart. But I find it hard to find a single moment in these films where I genuinely felt that Obi Wan and Anakin were brothers.

I never felt a brother vibe. Qui Gon died and Obi Wan stepped in as mentor and (sort of) father figure. To be brothers there would have had to been some equal footing and there never was.

And can someone explain to me how Padme and Anakin's marriage could have been a secret? When not doing their jobs, they were together. At night. And no one ever questioned who knocked her up? Was the empire gossip free? Did a room full of Jedis fail to sense Anakin's impure thoughts???

WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME THINK ABOUT THIS?!?!!?!

[sache8.livejournal.com]

And no one ever questioned who knocked her up? Was the empire gossip free? Did a room full of Jedi fail to sense Anakin's impure thoughts???

I was always most curious about how Mister "Highest Midichlorian Count in the History of Time" failed to even notice she was pregnant, when a blind man could have figured it from orbit with the naked eye. Or how a nobody seemed to know she was carrying twins until she goes into labor. *shakes head and laughs fondly at the absurdity* I mean, really. One of the most special plot points of the whole story had to be conveyed by a blah-voiced nurse droid?

Oh yeah, and there's that whole 'Padmé, defiant liberator of Naboo just flops over and dies of a broken heart in flagrant defiance of her established characterization and, oh yeah, of her newborn daughter's future canonical memories!!!'


I weep. I weep at the awfulness!!!

(This is disturbingly fun) ;-)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OH GOD YES. And like, I know that they were trying to keep the whole twins thing secret from Vader because he doesn't seem to be off looking for his other kid in the OT? But for real. WHAT.

Also, if she was far enough along that (despite her insanely small size) she could give birth to twins who were perfectly healthy and no in need of medical attention, a freaking DOCTOR should have noticed it was twins. Unless she was randomly getting no medical attention which is...weird. I know she was wearing those ginormous outfits to try and vaguely hide stuff? But please, someone would have noticed and I don't really believe she would forgo a doctor.

Oh yeah, and there's that whole 'Padmé, defiant liberator of Naboo just flops over and dies of a broken heart in flagrant defiance of her established characterization and, oh yeah, of her newborn daughter's future canonical memories!!!'

OH GOD. When I heard she was "losing the will to live," I very nearly yelled out in the cinema, "SO AM I!"

I have two possible retcons for the memories thing to help me sleep at night. The first is that she's referring to Breha Organa who also died when she was very young and she didn't realise she was adopted at that point, so she thinks "your real mother" is a reference to the mother who died when she was young rather than any stepmother she later had.

Or, my preferred one, Yoda says of the Force that it will grant you visions of "old friends, long gone." I kind of like the idea of Leia's latent Force abilities manifesting themselves in dreamlike Force visions of her mother. Which, as she grew older, she began to confuse with memories. Especially since I think any manifestation of the Force on her part would be pretty quickly trained out of her by her fearful parents.

That is entirely a manufactured fanwank though!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

One of the cable stations was running a Star Wars marathon here a few weeks ago and I caught bits and pieces of the prequels.

I'M SO SORRY! *clings to you*

Anakin accidentally destroying a huge ass trade federation ship while highly trained pilots can barely save themselves is insulting on so many levels.

I just...if he really is supposed to be a great pilot, with actual skills, as...weird as that is in a 10 year old, why not have him use his podracing skills to run some kind of Death Star trenchlike scenario on purpose? What POSSIBLE REASON is there to have him do it by accident other than to make EVERYONE look incompetent? Or, you know, play the whole thing for laughs.

Oh ho ho, Luke just ACCIDENTALLY blew up the Death Star. WHAT A LUCKY BOY HE IS. *facepalm*

Though an argument could be made that George just has no clue how to create romance and therefore should, by law, be prohibited from ever writing it.

I could get on board with this. Or, you know, we could just prohibit him from writing anything, especially Star Wars-related.

This is the man who allowed a brother and sister to makeout in order to make her future husband jealous.

BWAHAHAHA. Okay. I have to admit it, I love that that happened. It's so hilariously random and weird. Also I'm pretty sure it kind of proves that Lucas is bullshitting when he says that he always intended them to be siblings. I LIKE that they are. But no way did George Lucas have that planned out during Empire.

I never felt a brother vibe. Qui Gon died and Obi Wan stepped in as mentor and (sort of) father figure. To be brothers there would have had to been some equal footing and there never was.

Again, unsurprisingly, I agree.

And actually I also would have been okay with that, had it at least been shows as an important relationship? I mean, the guy basically raised Anakin from the age of 9, he really is like his father, and I think, even though it's in the movie I hate most, Anakin himself says this on more than one occasion. But either way, there was an epic lack of emotion in that moment that should have been full of it.

And can someone explain to me how Padme and Anakin's marriage could have been a secret? When not doing their jobs, they were together. At night. And no one ever questioned who knocked her up? Was the empire gossip free? Did a room full of Jedis fail to sense Anakin's impure thoughts???

Yeeaaaah. I mean, okay, he's a Jedi Knight, I guess he's probably well-enough trained that he can sneak into her apartment with no one noticing. And maybe Padme even started other rumours so that Anakin was distant speculation in the minds of most. But...really. It's kind of dumb. I mean, there's a whole scene in ROTS where Anakin's at Padme's and he's all, "Obi Wan's been here, hasn't he?!" and she's like, "Yes, he came by this morning, he's worried about you, says you're under a lot of pressure..." And I'm like...he KNOWS Anakin's just chilling at her house all the time? Oy.

I guess that since the Jedi are allowed friends they can be trying to pass it off as just that? But then, I'm sorry, she ends up pregnant and there's no dad on the scene and a room full of the most powerful psychics in the universe don't put two and two together? HA.

WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME THINK ABOUT THIS?!?!!?!

BECAUSE YOU MUST SHARE MY PAIN!!1!1!!

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

So Anakin being the poster boy for stalkers and Padme thinking it's cute is not so surprising. Wanna bet 'Every Breath You Take' was their song?

*cryinglaughing*

I've always believed that Lucas was so hell bent on creating another trilogy he was incapable of realizing he could have told his story in two films.

Similar to the other two Matrix movies, both of which are in my Do Not Exist pile, along with four movies, all by George Lucas.

And can someone explain to me how Padme and Anakin's marriage could have been a secret? When not doing their jobs, they were together.

They hid behind poles. Did you not watch the movie? Sheesh.

And no one ever questioned who knocked her up?

Did anyone notice? George Skillfully prepped us for this with all those fancy dresses right from the get go!

Was the empire gossip free?

No TMZ.

Did a room full of Jedis fail to sense Anakin's impure thoughts???

Weed.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

It had Qui Gon Jinn and the duel with Darth Maul and a universe that hadn't quite yet been utterly subsumed by CGI. Anakin was kind of annoying and we all hate mini-chlorines and hate mini-chlorines being Anakin's dad even more, probably even more than we all hate Jar Jar which is a LOT, but at least our intrepid hero, the man even Yoda spoke of with quiet awe, wasn't courting girls by stalking them and then declaring that they'd just murdered an entire village including children.
Ahaha, I love you.

I STILL HAVE NEVER SEEN "REVENGE OF THE SITH". And I feel like I'm almost jumping on the bandwagon of other people's righteous hatred of those movies by hating them -- because while I enjoyed the original trilogy like crazy, I've never considered myself a big Star Wars fan so it's not like I ever felt they were ruining my canon or something.

But god, yes. The things you said! I think you make the best point ever in saying the movies should've built up Anakin as a real fallen hero instead of being so preoccupied with "Look he's Vader!" that they made him EVIL BY THE SECOND MOVIE. (Genocide is evil, George Lucas. Just fyi.) Phantom Menace had its obvious and glaring flaws, but none of it was as bad as suffering through the Anakin/Amidala "romance". And that's the part of the movie that made the *most* narrative sense, which is saying a lot.

It's mine, and George Lucas can't have it.
Aww, amen!

P.S. Arrrgh, am I the only one who cannot stand that YouTube guy? Co-workers kept recommending those videos to me, so I sat through the whole Phantom Menace one, and I was so turned off by the "also I'm playing this ~character~ who murders women lulz" digressions and intentionally shitty editing. It bothers me that there really is an enjoyable and funny review in there, but I have to keep filtering it through pointless hipster misogyny along the way. I'm really debating whether I want to subject myself to the Ep 2 review or not. [/totally off-topic rant]

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hee! Glad to entertain.

Honestly, while Revenge of the Sith is a slightly better made movie than Clones, you're really not missing anything by not seeing it.

Phantom Menace had its obvious and glaring flaws, but none of it was as bad as suffering through the Anakin/Amidala "romance". And that's the part of the movie that made the *most* narrative sense, which is saying a lot.

*cries self to sleep* ;)

Re: the YouTube guy, I do have to confess that I quite like him, yeah. I do understand your criticism of him, and can see your point there because the only defense I have is that I find the character completely ironic and not in any way serious, which I know is...a very fine line. Where do you say, "I'm doing this ironically," and where do you say, "No you're just saying you're doing it ironically."

I think one thing that helps is that he does Star Trek reviews too, in fact he did them first, and I watched them in the order that he did them, so like, I experienced him building up his weird repertoire of jokes and the character much more slowly and I know the story both of where the Plinkett character comes from and also why he gets used in the reviews.

Basically the guy runs an amateur movie production company and Plinkett is a character from one of the b-movie type cinematic shorts they did. Or something. I think it was a creature film like...Critters or something. IDK. Anyway, the review guy originally did his first review - of Star Trek: Generations - straight, in his own voice. And it didn't work, it was hard to get past the fact it sounded like some dude nitpicking. So he did it "in character" and it suddenly began to work.

Now, that's not a defense of the character he chose to use. And my acceptance of that, mostly is, I think, that it sends up the reviewer at the same time as making his points. The argument that would always be leveled at any kind of nitpick review, or frankly, any kind of even non-nitpicky scifantasy review, is that it's just some twisted fanboy in his mom's basement and that's the only reason he cares; this way, the reviews kind of sidestep that criticism by going further, by being aware of that, and by using it. By making fun of themselves at the same time.

I think I would be far more intolerant of the womanhating if I felt it was shared by the reviews, but honestly, from what I've seen the reviews use Plinkett's racism, sexism and other isms to highlight racism, sexism, etc., in the movies being reviewed. And I find a kind of enjoyable, surreal irony to the fact that it's this guy pointing out George Lucas's issues with women and that Anakin is a psycho stalker.

So...yeah, I get why it would be something that turned you off of the whole thing, and I don't really have a strong defense other than I, personally, don't feel it's an excuse for the guy playing the character to have a laugh about killing women, but rather an extreme sendup of creeps. But...humour is very subjective?

As to the reviews themselves, I have, now, seen the Ep II review and probably wouldn't recommend it to you because the same things that bothered you before will bother you this time (although I will say that the hooker you see in his basement in Ep I returns frequently in Ep II and ends up by tricking Plinkett and escaping; lord only knows how that will conclude in Ep III; tangent: I was kind of disappointed based on the end of Ep I and the Ep II review trailer that he wasn't doing this one from prison).

Also it's not as good a review. It's funny and makes great points but it's not as much of an entertaining destruction of the narrative and film-editing choices as the first one mainly because, I think, Ep II is...not a movie so you really can't pick apart that stuff because it doesn't exist.

So yeah, I'd probably skip it.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Wordy mcWordster.

it still irritates me no end that they screwed up Phantom Menace, because all the pieces were in place for that movie to have been superb. Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor for heavens sake. If those two had just been given a decent script and story, and maybe some direction, so they could have, y'know. Acted.

Saw an interview with Ewan once where he was asked about Star Wars, and you could see the pain in his eyes. He'd wanted to do those movies all his life, and when he finally got to do them, they were awful. I don't think he likes to talk about it anymore.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Samuel L. Jackson more or less Samuel L. Jacksoned his way into the film just because he wanted to be part of the epic that is Star wars that so many people love. I bet he's regretting that.

"Ok George, what do I do in this scene?"
"Well Samuel, you get to nod knowingly in a close up."
"WTF? That's it? I better get a purple lightsaber for this then, bitch."

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I still think that Liam Neeson did a decent job with what he was given. Certainly he was the only prequel Jedi that really felt like a Jedi to me.

I really haven't seen any interviews with the cast about it, but if what you say is true, man I feel for Mr McGregor. :( I know that the actor who played Wedge Antilles was his uncle and it really was something he'd wanted to do since he was a kid. Poor dude.

[samstareagle.livejournal.com]

Star Wars is really neat for me cause I consider the original trilogy one of the definitive works of art of the last century (even with the Ewoks :P), but at the same time have no problem revealing in it's inherent silliness. For the prequel trilogy, could they have been better, like, A LOT better? HELL YES. LOL But, for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me at all the way BSG or several other BIG fictional epics fell flat, probably because as great a premise as it is, Star Wars for me has always been those Saturday afternoon serials that Lucas wanted to recreate from his childhood. It is AWESOME, but a quasi-religious experience like it's made out to be by so many film geeks? Nah. Just a super cool cartoon, not a gift from God. I guess my feelings about the prequels from that perspective must be what Christmas is like for a lot of Jewish people...sure they think it's silly and have major reservations about people making it out to be the bestest thing ever...but then again, their other-persusioned friends still send them cards and the occasional "WOW" gift, and despite everything, they still get free cookies at the office, so what's to complain about? (If that came off as amazingly offensive, I TOTALLY apologize. LOL) Sure the Prequels didn't hold a candle to Empire...but I still got to feel like a 10 year old watching spaceships and robots blow up...and for that, I'm happy. :P

And I am LMAO at the Anakin/Padme, Edward/Bella comparison!!!

Bella- Padme, we really need to talk...

Padme- You're here about Ani, aren't you?

Edward- (slight gagging) Oh man, if she calls him that ONE MORE TIME...

Bella- EDWARD! Okay, look, I know people think me and my sparkly vampire true love are total fail, but seriously, you've got some serious issues. And I'd know issues, I fell for this guy AFTER he told he watched me sleep everynight without even telling me...and the whole eating people thing, but the sleepwatching really seems to irk people.

Padme- You don't know him! He's a good man!!!

Bella- Oh please!!! We all saw that scene with you two by the lake...and your gag inducing flirti, no, it wasn't even flirting! Yeah, I'm dating a guy that wants to eat me, but your dating a guy that wants to take all his orders from a creepy gay lizard guy, take over the galaxy in a hellish firestorm of blown CGI budgets and dress up like a robot Phantom of the Opera that smells like burnt bacon all because he had mommy issues!!!

Edward- Yeah! And tell her about the girlish whining! At least I know how to sulk with DIGNITY!!!

:P