HELLO SWEETIE, I THINK I WOULD RATHER HAVE DIED. [River Song]

[beccatoria]

So, it turns out there's only so much Fringe I can vid before I reach critical gross science mass of dear god stop with the eyeballs already, so in order to take a break, I am, instead, going to talk about River Song and the only thing in the entire world I wish was different about her.

Namely, the very end of the Library episodes. And since I love River Song with the fire of a thousand burning suns, yet don't really like the end of her story (technically, if not narratively, but we'll get to that), and since usually that's like...a dealbreaker for me, I thought I should ARCHIVE MY THOUGHTS.

First, some background. No matter what I say here about how I interpret River's fate in order to become okay with it, or how it's not as bad as [insert example], as I said, it is the one thing in the world about her that I wish were different. I wish it was different. I don't really like it. I'm not trying to convince anyone they should be cool with it if they're not. Also, I think everything else ever about River it totally fucking awesome. I may later be proven wrong (it's happened before, and about similar topics), but currently, I do not believe this is in spite of Steven Moffat. His current score of Deliberate Awesome > his current score of Accidental Failure. You know, in my head.

So, let's talk about why I don't like it. Basically I don't like it because it's limiting. It's static. Putting her in such an explicitly maternal, domestic setting is kinda thoughtless and gender stereotypical, sure, and that does bug me some, but oddly it's not the thing that irks me most. I think this is partly cus my brain's initial reaction is to point and laugh and say at least River had the common sense to die first so getting lumped with a bunch of kids can't slowly kill her social life, but um, that's me being amused and making snarky jokes (considering I'm not actually in any way anti-children) and not really germane to the very valid criticism one can level at it. Like I said, it bugs.

But I think beyond that it's that - as I said - it's the stasis and lack of choice that really bothers me. The method of imposing that - the idyllic domestic setting - for whatever reason, strikes me as just a lazy pasteded on happy ever after. It's not the underlying point that makes me go, "Oh, River." Because, like with Miss Evangelista, like with the sympathy for Donna Noble who she had never met but whose story she already knew, she'll take care of Cal. That makes sense, even if it makes for a skeezy happy ever after. For whatever reason, I didn't really feel it suddenly turned her character into someone who secretly wanted kids all along, it was just...where she ended up at. And I assume she's happy to go along with because any minute now, she'll be getting back out of there (but I'm jumping ahead of myself: we should not meet the points of this essay in the wrong order).

I don't believe the monomyth is applicable to everything. But it is, in itself an intriguing story, and Moffat writes fairytales when he's writing for Who. So to use it as a point of comparison - the enemy is not death. A hero moves through death, and learns, and returns from it master of both worlds. The enemy is stasis. The enemy is the Nimue trapping Merlin in a dreamworld. Or the Dream Lord trapping Amy. Or the TARDIS - the magic box that takes you anywhen - inverting to a time-looped prison. The magic box designed to trap the Doctor - so static he couldn't die, because death is his power, because death is not the enemy - is turned from a trap into the instrument of victory, by turning it into something explosive, something metamorphic, something that will literally un-and-remake every part of the universe, leaving nothing static. A moment of absolute revolution.

And here, at her end, we have River, trapped in a box. Unchanging. Static.

I would have preferred her to die, gloriously, I think.

However, in the face of this, I choose to think of her ending not as her ultimate, unchanging fate - not as her metaphorical ascension to creepy, creepy heaven - but rather as the beginning of her journey through the lands of the dead. Death is not the enemy.

The Tenth Doctor was all about saving people for himself, not really for them (again, we'll get to that; we'll get to it). He doesn't think about the girl in the paving slab and he doesn't think about his wife in a computer, he thinks about how he saved them and he leaves. (And the Eleventh Doctor is all about time being rewritten: I wonder if he'll try that?)

One day, though, after the Vashta Narada leave, or before then, if their fear of the Doctor is any indication, and if he loads up on Super Batteries for his torch, one of the many doctors after Ten - all of whom have had years to think about it, who gave her a screwdriver rather than telling her not to go - will know exactly where she is. One day, River's going to get out of that computer, into a brand new robot/cloned/magic body. It'll be just like regeneration, and death will be her power too.

Not that I expect to see this on film, because, really, I think it's probably not something most people think about. I'd love to be surprised, but probably the people involved think it's a happy ending. But I like it better my way.

I do think it's interesting to note the context in which the episode was written, which helps me at least understand why the ending feels a fair bit different to the rest of the episode. Moffat has been very honest about the fact that he never expected to get the chance to tell all of River's story.

In some ways, in the Library episodes, she's not River yet. She's an idea - a gimmick. A fantastic, wonderful one with a strong character and a beautiful throughline and a powerful idea - this once and future enigma. The one the man who knows everything knows nothing about.

The point of the story is that she dies. The point is this last/first meeting and honestly, it's amazing and heartbreaking and fantastic. (And pretty much the first time I've ever argued for fridging, if that's what this is - but again, we'll get to that).

But...it's a story for children. Not that those always need happy endings but it's nice when they get them. So she gets one. A slightly thoughtless one for her character, but at this point, she's still an idea. She's the woman the Doctor can't stand not to save even though he barely knows her. And so she gets the guest-star end. The not-entirely-thought-through end. The end that was perhaps not quite so rigorously put through the Don't Be Sexist filter as it should have been.

I'm disappointed by it, but I can't find it in me to take it as a sign that Moffat is a failure of a writer, simply based on his accumulated successes. He just...dropped the ball here. Privileged the protagonist's emotional needs over that of the guest star in a way that was only way awkward once she became this FORCE OF FREAKING NATURE in later episodes, and other than that was a little disappointingly gender essentialist.

(I keep seeing Sam Anders watching Starbuck leave in the heavy raider: Is that who River Song is to this fandom? I find that inappropriately entertaining).

So I suppose that begs the question; if, judged in isolation, I think the Library episodes are fantastic with a slightly disappointing final few scenes, what do I think of them in the context of her whole story? If, as I've said, I find it more disappointing the more I know about her, to the point I start using LITERARY MYTHIC WRITINGS as justifications for why she'll escape it one day, why am I still so awesomely in love with her and not simultaneously raging at Moffat as I was known to do at both RTD and RDM (what is it with three-letter showrunners that start with R and me?)

It's a good question. Mostly I think it's quick to answer:

1) He's making up for it. Now that she's a real, recurring, important character, she has been nothing short of marvelous, and while narratively we already know the end, in realworld chronology, he's been improving her with every appearance.

2) The pall that a bad ending might otherwise cast over her character it mitigated by the fact she's not actually dead. Which means there is space for interpretation and continuation.

3) I have an odd ability to kind of not think about it and just act like she kind of did die in truly awesome, glorious fashion, the very first time the Doctor ever met her, while simultaneously knowing that she's sort of still alive and will one day continue her conquest of the universe through sheer awesome. I do not know how I manage to hold onto these conflicting beliefs, yet somehow I do. I BLAME THE MAGIC OF RIVER.

The last thing I want to talk about requires looping back a bit (again, with the essay points in the wrong order). And that's another issue of clarification, really. Which is that, superficially, there are a lot of similarities between Donna's end and River's. Especially since above, I flat out said, and, in fact, even partially excused River's end based on focusing more on the main character's emotions when that pretty much represents everything awful about Donna's ending.

So, let's see - they're both basically saved against their wills and forced into a static existence rather than dying under their own control, arguably to indulge the Doctor's need to save everyone no matter the cost and to provide him with MOAR EMO.

Here are some reasons I think they are different, and why one of them made me actually quit the show (okay for the second time and clearly it didn't stick, but, I DIDN'T WATCH ANY OTHER RTD EPISODES EXCEPT BY ACCIDENT CUS I WAS IN A PUB), but the other kind of makes me sadly shrug my shoulders and pull out my meta-bat and hit it until I'm okay with it again.

1) River loses her body but keeps her mind, her intelligence, her brilliance and her memories. Donna, on the other hand, is reduced to her body, her thoughts stolen from her, her desires erased, not just ignored.

2) Donna wanted to die specifically rather than being saved in the way the Doctor saved her. River simply didn't know it was an option. While I'm not sure how she'll feel about it long-term, at least the Doctor wasn't ignoring her express wishes.

3) Donna had her status and power and agency reduced in order to provide the Doctor with manpain. "Saving" her was a reductive act. Since River would otherwise be dead, saving her actually preserved more of her agency and independence than otherwise. I'm not saying life at any cost, but I am saying that at least it was about saving her, not metaphorically killing her as it was with Donna.

4) Yes, in both cases the Doctor's desires were prioritised over Donna's/River's. However, I think it's worse to see this happen to the other series regular rather than the guest star the writer has no reason to believe is coming back. I'm not saying it's laudable but it's less awful. Especially since River's ending wasn't as horrifying as the paving slab and was, on a fundamental level, at least about her being too awesome and important to the Doctor to let die, rather than being another human sloppily saved and forgotten.

5) Unusually, I don't actually have a problem with "fridging" River in this capacity because unlike Donna, her unusual chronological relationship with the Doctor means we get all the benefits of Tragic Death Sealing Her Importance Forever without actually having to lose River in any way. In fact, it's kind of made her narratively immortal in the ongoing series.

THUS END MY EPIC THOUGHTS OF THINKING. :)

Comments

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

UGH, that is EXACTLY 10! He saves people FOR HIMSELF and then SWANS OFF and OH, HOW I HATE HIM!

For the record, I'll now be believing your "and then another Doctor gives her a new body" theory, because it is TOO AWESOME to be untrue.

Very nicely thought out etc. And I'm glad, because I want to love Steven Moffat VERY VERY BADLY, and so far nothing (huge) is getting in my way. And I am THRILLED TO DEATH about it.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I KNOW I HATE HIM SO MUCH ALSO. WHY? WHY DOES THE WORLD LOVE HIM SO MUCH WHEN CLEARLY HE IS SO ICKY?! *le sigh*

Also, I am very pleased to have someone else on my BRAND NEW BODY train. :D

I'm really impressed with Moffat so far. His first season really felt like it hung together and had an arc and thematic unity in a way RTD's seasons never did (putting "bad wolf" in every episode doesn't really count...)

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is how I think of it myself--it could have been worse. Paving slab is just horrifying to me on so many levels that I tend to try and ignore that episode completely. (I actually have a half-finished River meta-fic about her ending, which is basically my attempt at reconciling myself to her static ongoing existence.)

In other words, yes to this post.

*goes back to writing Martha fic instead of procrastinating*

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yes, if there is any silver lining to the paving slab at all it is that we can ALWAYS find something worse to make other things look not quite as bad...

I would loooove if you finished metafic about her ending! :D

(Also icon!love!)

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

The problem with me and Doctor Who fic (aside from the panic I get posting anything because DW fandom is BIG! and SCARY!) is that I'm so behind on episodes, someone has nearly always written a better version of any idea I have. Like this. (http://cosmic.livejournal.com/826954.html)

I mentioned in the comments on that fic that someone writing for new Who seems to have this idea that death is the worst thing ever. I think they're wrong.

(I still might finish my story at some point. It's different enough from that fic. But it definitely won't be as good as that one--which is fine, but, um... yeah.)

[chaila.livejournal.com]

You are smart. Also the only downside to talking to you about all this stuff (not like there's REALLY a downside) is that when you post it, I can only say, yes I agree with this. So: yes, I agree with this. Like you, I find it surprisingly easy to just not think about. I think that's partly because of my lack of investment in the show writ large, partly because, like you say, it's not really presented as ~just what she always wanted~. And still, despite the, er, almost obsession with maternity that this show seems to have sometimes, there was no boy and the children were, like, fake, so it was still a strange little pseudo-family. So it wasn't A BOY AND SOME KIDS WAS ALL RIVER SONG EVER REALLY NEEDED, which *would* have made me ragey, no matter my investment level in the show. And partly, I think the maternity theme bugs me just a little bit less in a show for kids, especially where, as I said, at least it's not *always* bound up with a husband and two kids and a white picket fence. If River had been "saved" in, say, Donna's position in the library eps? *rages* I mean, yes, it bugs, but I can deal.

And, perhaps pettily, my least favorite thing about River's not-death is the way the show loves the Doctor in it--he is too important for her to let him die so she must sacrifice herself *for him*. Alex Kingston *sells that shit* so I'm mostly okay with it, especially with the way she gets to frame it as refusal to let *her life* be changed, but still. *little twinge of annoyance* And even that would have been better if she'd actually just died.

I think your distinctions between Donna and River are very apt. Especially that it was the end of Donna's story, which totally erased everything that came before. With River, she intends to die to *keep* the rest of her story the same, to keep all that came before. Yeah, the Doctor saves her without her consent in a rather creepy sort of way, but she's still *River* with all the experience and knowledge accumulated throughout her life that makes her who she is, even if she's (temporarily!) stuck in a computer.

YOU GRAFFITIED THE OLDEST CLIFF FACE IN THE UNIVERSE.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Agreeing with me is always appropriate! :p

See, I get what you're saying about how much the show loves the Doctor there, but again I think my perspective is different because of the fact I do actually know more about it in general terms and I was just so shocked by how much I didn't hate him it was a pleasant surprise. Also I was so caught up in Alex Kingston selling it, I kind of missed that part. BUT YES TO GLORIOUS DEATH.

I absolutely think you put it more succinctly than me when you said that Donna's story is erased by her "death" while River's is saved.

YOU WOULDN'T ANSWER YOUR PHONE.

[mon-st.livejournal.com]

I had a lot of problems with the ending of those episodes too (despite loving them, and loving River as a character); the first time I watched it, I felt cheated: she should have died at the end, none of that creepy half-life for River Song, thankyouverymuch! It would have been one hell of an epic death scene, on her own terms, if we'd ended things as she dies for the Doctor, to save all those people, but also ultimately to protect her own self, her own life, her own choices. Not one line, don't you dare. Oh, how I loved that moment.

Still, I sort of came to terms with it all after seeing this post (http://community.livejournal.com/doctorwho/5862938.html) some time ago. I loved that image of River as a storyteller and seeker of knowledge - and it's an interpretation that ties in nicely with what makes those episodes so good, and makes me hate that ending a little less.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to that post. I see where the author is going with it, and it's not without merit (and I'm glad if it helped you reconcile your feelings). But I'm not sure I can entirely buy it. Mainly because the metaphors don't quite tie up to the story for me. I can't see it as joining the divine when she's so completely cut off from the real. She can't be the storyteller if there's no one to tell the story too (and there isn't, except phantom children and one isolated computer child). She can't be a goddess if there's no one to bless.

What is a library with no one to read its books? What's an infinity of knowledge with no one to learn it? River, for me, is too alive and vibrant to become the dusty keeper of the keys; the lonely guardian of forbidden lore.

[tellitslant]

YES YES YES

I effing hate the end of it all. I rewatched these two eps recently and may at some point get around to actually posting about seeing them in light of what we've since learned, but the basic point is: they are so painful to watch now, even more than before.

And here, at her end, we have River, trapped in a box. Unchanging. Static.
This, exactly. It goes back to what I was saying about River as story - here she is in the story, but there is arguably no more story to be written, only what is there already. And the story that is there isn't her story - it's constructed by someone else, for someone else. She gets to tell the pre-existing story to others, but she doesn't get any more story of her own, and, argh.

I do tend to handwave and go "We never saw her body! Other people came out of the computer! I do believe in fairies, I do I do!" even though I know it's probably never going to happen. And as you mentioned, ironically it becomes both easier and harder to accept this end the more we see: easier because we are getting more story even though her own story has narratively ended, and harder because the more we learn about her the less perfect as a moment that ep becomes and the more we see that she deserved better.

What I really hate about her end, though, is that she dies for the man she loves when he doesn't even love her. I mean, he can't even really say thank you properly, because he doesn't understand, and she dies without that understanding being possible. I am explaining this poorly, but it bugs me. It's also the only think that has really ticked me off about Eleven: River dies for him, and then the next time he meets her he tries to run away? I don't care how freaked out he is by her timey-wimey-ness, that is just plain rude. (I think Ten did similar to Jack, BUT STILL.)

ANYWAYS, I am babbling when mostly I just want to say that I think you are very right, and I really wish we had gotten a recurring character ending rather than a guest star ending, but I do trust Moff to keep bringing the awesome with her.

(Moff's kind of the anti-RDM. Moore kept starting off with these great female characters and then just kind of letting them wilt. River: the anti-Laura Roslin?)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Bwahahahaa, River Song, the anti-Laura Roslin. I can go with that!

I definitely agree with you that her end becomes both easier and harder to accept as the story goes on. I suppose Moffat may surprise us all and pull her out of there, or give us a definitive answer, but I kind of doubt it.

The only place in your comment we really disagree is that I was kind of okay with the way she dies for him when he doesn't even know of love her yet. This is one of the things I find increasingly easier to handle as the story goes on. Basically just because the continuing story means one day, I'm sure, he will be in a similar position. And because I am kind of in love with the first/last meeting. If she died with him not understanding, and we knew he would never understand, I would feel more the way you do, I think. But as it is...one day he will. He understands a little more every time they meet. And I love the emotion it brings out in River - saving this man that, in some ways, she doesn't love yet either (he's not finished, he's not her doctor), but will. But you know, personal takes on stuff.

As to Eleven running away, it is rude, but to me, at least, kind of endearing, mainly because I think he's terrified not of her timey-wimeyness, not really of his future, whatever he tells Amy, but of the enormity of her importance knowing what it'll cost her. He tries to run because he's frightened, yes, but - and again, personal interpretation - I found his fear so much less about him, or at least as selfishly so, as Ten running from Jack, and so much more about the enormity of it. About trying to postpone the inevitable because all he knows, so far, is she dies for him and he fails to (really) save her.

But I do accept your points as a valid criticism. Just one I am happily managing to ignore by sticking my fingers in my ears and singing loudly... :p (Whut, it worked REALLY WELL with BSG right up until 4.5!)

[tellitslant]

There are River Song/Laura Roslin prompts on the Porn Battle. I am so tempted.

The thing with me and the first/last meeting is that I love it as a story, but I hate it for the characters. You know what I mean? Like, I think if Moff actually pulls off a bit where she kills him - no matter that I think it unlikely - it will be an absolutely brilliant piece of circularity. But I can't divorce my appreciation for the storytelling from my desire to smoosh River and Eleven together and be all MAKE OUT AND LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER GUYS.

Too, I was trying to work it out in fic and failing, but it really bugs me that her last meeting with him isn't when he's him at all. Possibly some of it is tied into the fact that she is in so many ways his equal in knowledge and power, and yet he's always holding this ultimate knowledge over her in a way that almost negates everything else? I don't know. *handwavey* I think when/if/when we get to see them being more intimate and properly trusting, I'll probably feel better about it. *g*

And, okay, I like that explanation for Eleven running away. It does make more sense in the context of the episode, too, now that I think about it. I think I was so annoyed at him that I didn't see this possibility. Hmm.

I'm really enjoying the amount of River meta-squee on your journal. Mind if I friend?

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

River/Laura?! OMGS. I think my brain would asplode... ;)

Also, regarding the tragic need to both have the circularity of mutual death and the ability to SMUSH THEM TOGETHER AND MAKE KISSING SOUNDS, I think I handle it by figuring, narratively, there is an infinite amount of time between these events? Like, the Doctor's first encounter with River is the one where she dies, similarly at some point, River may have an encounter with the Doctor where she kills him, but thanks to the weirdness of time, they will both continue to see each other after that - for the rest of their lives (if they mutually die for/kill each other). There are an infinite number of stories to tell in that space, even if there's also tragedy in that they both know how the other ends.

OR, there is the happier way of assuming that after he gets her OUT of the Library, they will live happily ever after. ;)

I get what you're saying about the Doctor knowing this ultimate secret about her. Fortunately for me, I don't feel that negates everything else, since River also has her own secrets, about the Doctor's name, which is clearly amazingly important, about who she is, etc., and quite possibly about his death too. But more than that, because I don't think the knowledge is something...that has power over her? She chose so clearly to make that choice, and we've seen her try to do it on more than one occasion since. If she really had died, it's one of the few "fridgings" I would have been on board with just because she was so certain, and so sure of it. In some ways that's another reason I'm annoyed she got saved because she CHOSE and her death was almost a giant validation of her agency and power. I think mostly what that ultimate knowledge does for the Doctor - and again, this is personal interpretation tied very closely to my reading of Eleven's reasons for running away - is tie him to her. It ends up holding power over him. If River knew it - how she was going to die - she'd shrug and move on. But for the Doctor it's a promise of things to come over which he has no control; it's proof of what she'll one day be to him, all she'll mean, all he'll lose, all she'll lose. It's the moment he failed to change the future and lost control of it - to her.

It's the moment he lost his heart, even if he didn't love her yet.

AND STUFF! ;)

Anyway, I'm glad you're enjoying the meta-squee! Friending is always fine and welcome - please friend, defriend, comment-erratically-without-friending - it's all good. The only thing is, I don't always friend back right away, I really hope that's okay. I don't really use my flist as a general reading list like many do, and instead tend to actually surf over to journals, and try to keep my flist pared down. But you're very welcome to friend or not friend with that info, and I'd love to get to know you. :)

[(Anonymous)]

Very interesting and well worded thoughts. It's great your passion for River Song is creating an interesting avenue for you to explore the themes of Who.

If I can just address the nature of River's fate. We were shown a domestic setting but her (after) life isn't that bleak or static.

It's stated that from within the computer simulation they can explore all of the books stored in the database and that's a lot of books!

Not only do they have every work of fiction but all the history books, able to travel through time as easily as they turn a page. Just imagine how much there is to explore and experience. It would keep them busy until the point where the computer systems degraded and granted them a final death.

Don't forget the Doctor's statement 'You're in a library. Look me up.'

River will be able to spend some time with her time lord when she misses him too much.

Compared to living the rest of your life as a paving slab being able to explore all of eternity without fear of dying seems pretty wonderful.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hello person-I-think-I-know-who-you-are. :) (You can sign your name, you know, save me the trouble of being 95% sure...)

River is, indeed, proving to be a happier topic of conversation than considering all the ways in which Walternate will screw with Ourlivia's mind over on Fringe. D:

But I'm afraid we don't agree on the issue of her fate. (Well, we agree it's far better than life as a paving slab, but not the rest!)

As I said, I addressed the domestic setting as it was an issue for many others, but it wasn't really that big of an issue for me.

The bigger issue was the stasis, as you note. I do understand that it essentially functions as a sort of holodeck/Matrix for them, but that's also sort of my point.

I'm not really worried that she's actually going to be stuck in the same tiny village forever. But simply that it's not life. Not really.

But however many programs she can access or books she can read, for someone who is increasingly defined as half Indiana Jones half James Bond in a cocktail dress, it's not real. It's safe and easy and (perhaps endlessly) entertaining. But so was the Matrix, and we all know that choosing to stay inside it is the wrong choice. So is a holodeck, but Reg Barclay had issues. Dreams/fake realities, in literature and the media, both ancient and modern, are often portrayed as tempting, easy, safe, but rarely right.

As an afterlife, sure, it sucks less than some others, but it's also not - if one believes in such a thing - the real afterlife. And if, as I, one does not believe in an afterlife, it's still some kind of limbo. It's still Chuck living shut in with her aunts and all the books she could ever read but no life.

Personally, at least, I find the idea of forced immortality kind of creepy, but also, I'm not sure I like the idea of being able to conjure up a fake Doctor whenever she's feeling lonely. It's kind of...I don't know. Sad. Especially since one of the things I like about River is how she manages to cut through my general ick factor with regards to companions and the doctor - that whole dependency thing. Like, I LOVE Sarah Jane Smith, but being unable to move on with her life for almost forty years? I know the comparison isn't exactly by a long shot, but the idea of poor, lonely River having to imagine herself up a husband (or whatever he is to her) kind of strays a little closer to that territory than to the "I have my own adventures, but tend to invite him along via notes on ancient monuments" territory.

So, um, in summary - I'm absolutely glad that River gets to explore all of history and fiction instead of being a paving slab (even if I prefer to think she doesn't do it while conjuring up phantom doctors), but I'm still never gonna think it's not static, and it's not a little sad her story didn't end in a triumphant, fiery BANG of death and electric glory! ;)

[http://users.livejournal.com/wisteria_/]

I have absolutely nothing to add, since I don't watch DW closely enough to have any deep thoughts about it. But I just have to pop in and say THANK YOU for the River Song love! I've adored her since the first time she stepped onscreen. Back then, I thought it was just because I've always liked Alex Kingston. Now I can see all the shades and possibilities in her, due to both Kingston's performance and this great meta. If you don't mind, I'll be linking to it in my next linkspam post. :)

Er, I should add that your analysis here wasn't altogether hopeful, thanks to the episode in question. But it still made me think more about her than I have before, and I appreciate that!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yay! There is never enough River Song love and I'm so glad you liked the post! Feel free to link if you like. And it's always awesome to hear that I inspired ~thinking~! ;)

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

I love your point about the stasis and the way that ties into what this show is so clearly doing with myth. And thus I am even more convinced (not that this was hard) that she's getting out of there someday. Maybe we won't see it, what with the exigencies of television, but I feel like maybe if something crazy happened, like the show went on just long enough, and Moffat stayed in charge, and he got to end the story (or at least this part of the story) on his terms, we might get that end. I certainly don't expect it, but I kind of like to think that he gets what happened there and might want to go tie up that loose end if he got the chance to do so in the right moment. In the meantime, there is so much more of River's story to tell, so I'm okay if I don't actually get to see that end. I will just continue to imagine it! (In my brain this involves River and the Doctor, both "finished," finally catching up to one another's time and living happily ever after because good god, what a shipper I've become!)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the symbolism of River the storyteller, River in the library, etc. helps a lot with my attempts to make peace with the ending. But at the same time I don't want her to be ONLY a symbol for all eternity. River works so well because she's BOTH: she's got this important thematic role, but she's also a person--and a quite fully-realized one (for all that we don't yet know about her) at that.

But she WILL get out of there! After all, what have we learned about what comes to those who wait! Maybe River waits in the library, telling her stories, until it's time for her--and the Doctor--to be where they're supposed to be. (I kind of love the way Moffat is totally validating my "but I believe it will be this way!" approach to this. Woot, fairy tales!)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Oooh, yes, see what you're doing to my batshit shipper brain? I hadn't even considered that once he rescues her - that maybe he doesn't have the courage, conviction, understanding, to go rescue her until that last time they meet, until he knows there will be no more times to come, and then, they're both finally at the same point? (Even if they then go off on adventures and have glorious fun messing up their timelines again!) That perhaps this death is instead a waypoint, a midpoint, a resting point that really just catapults them into the next chapter? Indeed, my batshit shipper brain loves this muchly.

But I know what you mean, I don't think we'll see it, and I think I can even handle that, because I feel so much better that there are mythological and fairytale themes that can argue just as strongly that this is transitory as that it's permanent?

Because yes, the symbolism of the library and the storytelling, etc., really does massively help with things. Partly because there is symbolic satisfaction if not personal-for-the-character satisfaction, and also because it - I feel - totally vindicates our running with the symbolism-ball and yelling BUT I BELIEVE IT WILL BE THIS WAY! ;)

[fallingtowers.livejournal.com]

The reason why River's "death" / "afterlife" in SotL/FotD never bothered me as much is that I looked at her ending from another perspective -- the point-of-view my eight-year-old self would probably have had -- the viewpoint of the kids in the virtual reality who would have been alone and abandoned in the programme. The last scene wasn't necessarily the fate River will have in the land of the dead forever; it was a scene the little girl in the computer dreamed up for her because she (the girl) still needs someone to tell her fairy-tales at night. I have then fanwanked it that, in between the fairy-tales, River goes out to have adventures in her afterlife, but needs to come back every once in a while to tell a bedtime story, if that makes sense.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Oooh, yes, that's a very interesting perspective. I mean, I still have the same issues or lack thereof in my own weird configurations, but as I said in the post, it does make total sense to me that she would take care of Cal - her behaviour to Donna, Amy and Miss Evangelista demonstrates that she is very compassionate. And I do like the idea that this isn't River's afterlife so much as Cal's, and Cal wants a bedtime story. Even though eventually that tale-teller will fly the library.