Doctor Who: A Good Man Goes To War

[beccatoria]

Okay. Massive spoilers within, obviously. The non-spoilery version of this being, despite the fact there were many, many excellent things about that episode, one of the major twists really did not work for me much at all yet it seems to be best beloved by many excellent people on my flist whose opinions I respect, and I would really VERY MUCH like to love it to.



River Song = Melody Pond?

...eh.

I want to love it. I really, really want to love it. I get that it ties Amy and Rory into the mythology in a really powerful way. As much as it could potentially make Amy's relationship even with her own kid non-Bechdel-test-passing, it could equally create a Bechdel-test passing relationship between Amy and River where one did not previously exist.

I love found families and unconventional families. The idea, in theory, of a back-to-front nuclear family that raise each other in the wrong order and serve different roles at different times, is absolutely lovely. But there's an imbalance of power here.

Which brings us to the core of my disconcerting reaction to the revelation. The reason I could ship Doctor/River when I couldn't manage it for most other ships, was that her independence and the method through which they seemed to conduct their relationship, was a massive leveler for that imbalance. It's why I so strongly disliked the idea that he had met her as an "impressionable young girl".

It remains to be seen how it will all play out - admittedly, it seems she rather tragically spends the first seven or so years of her life stuck in a spacesuit, raised by creepy aliens she can't see, and I don't think that can be undone because of crossing timestreams. Which you know, in itself is pretty fucking tragic, but the point is, okay, we don't know how it'll play out, but the fact remains that...River grew up to marry her mother's best friend?

Amy once snogged her son-in-law?

A large part of River and the Doctor's epic timey-wimey romance occurs in front of her parents?

What does this herald for Amy and Rory? River gets an exciting, crazy, space-adventure life. But what about her parents? Do they get to raise her? If so OR if not, the fact that the Doctor will one day marry their child means that continuing to tote his future wife around near him as an infant is probably eventually going to get creepy, so...are they equipped to go off and have their own exciting lives, or is it a classic Who goodbye; sorry Amy, your daughter's the one who got the golden ticket?

There's a part of me that appreciates that Amy's first reaction to meeting her own kid back in the Angels episodes is, HOLY SHIT SHE'S AWESOME. And there's a part of me that likes that River is, much as Amy, inappropriately sexually forward in front of people such as parents. And there's a part of me that likes that Amy and Rory's kid is clearly gonna turn out to be pretty kickass. But there's also a part of me that dislikes stuff like the way River's caring and lack of rivalry with Amy that was so lovely is now probably going to be interpreted after the fact by some people not as "look, women don't always fight!" but rather as, "aaaah, so that's why they didn't catfight!"

Part of me likes the way River gets to be Timelordy and awesome (even though "cooking a Timelord" really, really DOES NOT make sense), but another part of me is like, wait, I liked River kind of because she was her own brand of awesome. I don't really need genetics to explain why she can pilot the TARDIS or keep up with the Doctor. Although equally on the flip side, it does level the playing field a little in terms of the way the Doctor's potentially exploitative status as an uncle figure is now shaping up. One thing I hadn't really considered until writing this (so hey, it's helped a little already!) is that if she is partly Time Lordish and with that has the ability to view time in that way and that intelligence and perspective, maybe the Doctor is the only other person who can keep up with her, and I guess it leaves space to have her as a big part of the show's continuing mythology in the decades to come if she can have earlier regenerations (although for serious, let's keep Alex Kingston AS LONG AS POSSIBLE), so there may have been a structural incentive for Moffat to give her that ability.

Though it also makes her death - which she specifically states the Tenth Doctor couldn't survive via regeneration - more tragic somehow. IDK, the motivations are the same - she was preserving her own life and experiences, but it seems like...I dunno. Loss. Even more than before, though I suppose that's the point. Stupid stuck-in-a-computer.

Finally, I really did like that the episode called out the way the Doctor's behaviour and where it would ultimately lead, and, in fact, where it did lead. Melody was specifically taken to get to the Doctor. River herself seeming genuinely angry with him, as much as she clearly also loves him, quite possibly for the loss of the life she could have had but now won't, although equally we know that she will die to keep her life from changing.

That River (as opposed to Melody - the girl who could have been), is a direct consequence of the Doctor's fuck up, and that she could not have been that person/that consequence, if she were not the child of people the Doctor loved already - if she were not someone the Doctor would have already loved - is at least preferable, to me, to her simply being their normal child who the Doctor later marries.

It doesn't exactly make it less weird, but it at least brings the weirdness more to the forefront and makes it more acknowledged.

But, I dunno.

All the excuses of, "but she's a great actress and knew she couldn't tell anyone!" doesn't really remove the fact that I'm upset she doesn't do more to acknowledge Amy and Rory when they don't know her. I do get that the Doctor already knows something's up there so she can tease him, whereas Amy and Rory don't. And River does try in the Library episodes, not to tease him where possible in places. And here, in an earlier version of her, perhaps the first time she has had to meet her father and call him "Rory" whereas later she's used to it. But even if it's practically explicable, it doesn't change the fact I feel shortchanged. It's gonna be weird watching older episodes now. It's just...gonna be weird. And creates a "my love life is allllll" feeling that I never used to get from her, because before she had this whole life, and right now it happened to be with the Doctor, but instead now, she's also kind of...ignoring her mum? IDK.

It's like, she's Melody AND Regenerating Girl AND the Doctor's Wife, and I kind of wish she'd just been two of those three things and it would have been better even?

As you can see I'm...not freaking out or declaring All To Be Fail.

But I am confused.

I feel like I'm on a ridge and on one side, I can fall over into, "I do not care, I am just going to love it on its own terms," and on the other side is, "Oh dear god what was that it's all weird and icky now and what did they do to her and why can't she just be River Song!" And right here on this ridge is an odd place of disconnected zen?

What I think I want is to be able to love it as deadly serious crack. But I'm not sure it's not just...crack.

SO PLEASE, MY FELLOW FANS, EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THIS IS AWESOME.

I'm deadly serious, here. I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I am genuinely confused about how I feel, and I would genuinely prefer to have my Come to Jesus River moment and get over this thing and make a shitload of vids and write meta and LAUGH about all this come September.

SAVE ME.

Comments

[such_heights]

For me the main thing that is awesome about the reveal is that RIVER IS A SUPERHERO. Which, I mean, duh, we already knew that and we didn't need this to know that, but to me it does confirm that she has this whole mythos that both is and is not about the Doctor. Or rather, it's about the Doctor in as much as he's the only other Time Lord around, but aside from that it means all kinds of things about who she is and how she experiences the universe and what her life might be like. And in a way that is going to be uniquely her own and not necessarily much like the Doctor.

And I see your point about how it's going to make other episodes seem somewhat odd, but I feel that there is a bunch more story to tell and that all of this is going get tied together substantially more than it is at the moment. Hopefully in ways that will be satisfying!

To be honest, my brain is mostly going 'River is Amy Pond's superhero daughter' and that is pretty great to me.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

YOU USED THE MAGIC SUPERHERO WORD ON ME. CURSE YOU.

No, seriously, that actually does help - I had totally forgotten then now obviously important line about Melody Pond being a superhero rather than a geography teacher.

I...still in some ways dislike that she needs to have that mythology around her to make her so, given that it's legitimately arguable that it's more about the Doctor. And even if we have the "destined for each other as equals" thing, the Doctor still kind of created her, even if accidentally. (And thinking about River as The Bride of Frankenstein is HILARIOUS but wrong).

However, for real, RIVER SONG, AMY POND'S SUPERHERO DAUGHTER is...kind of awesome. Certainly better than my previous immediate pop cultural reference which was that...Doctor Who just resolved a Love Triangle Twilight Style, and the Doctor is the werewolf. *facepalm*

(Sidenote: if I had to give her a DC equivalent, it would probably be Power Girl, because Power Girl takes no shit either!)

Okay, we're going good so far. It's crack, but the kind of crack I can love. KEEP AT ME! ;)

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

I think it does equate to a classic companion departure though.

We know Melody the baby is going to be seperated from her parents and spend the first many-years-of-her-life being raised by Silents in an insane aslyum in a spacesuit. (We assume the spacesuit will be built for her by the Doctor, because they established that in the opening two parter.)

So for whatever reason, Amy and Rory are out of this at the end of this season. I just can't see where there is any space for them in this mythology.

I might even lay bets that moffat will kill them both off. Probably sacrificing themselves to save Melody/River (in an incident in which the kid is injured so badly she has to be put in the space suit. And then the silence grab her.) Or something.

I'm rambling. It was a good reveal I think, it was the only reveal it could be, but it was done in such a way that we didn't go oh, okay, that's all that explained then. Instead, we now have a bazillion more questions.

And on top of all the questions we already had. Who are the monks? Why do they want to stop the doctor? WHATS GOING ON HERE?!?

And next episode? We get nazis? Whu?

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that the Doctor did build that space suit? But it is an interesting idea. I mean, I figured that she was in the space suit to keep her physically protected and cared for since the Silence would have slowly driven her crazy by repeatedly wiping her memory like Dr Renfrew. I'm also faaaar from convinced that Eyepatch Lady and the Silence are in cahoots. I'm kind of feeling like the Silence stole Melody.

I don't think Amy and Rory will die - that seems too...dark for Moffat? I know that sounds odd given he just basically stole their kid and Moffat goes to very dark places, but he's also all about "everybody lives", even if they die for that person first (which they have all done by now).

If anyone dies for Melody it will be the Doctor, "on my life she will be safe," and while I originally assumed someone different was in that space suit, I now think it probably is Melody/River.

Which in turn means that I don't think what she's imprisoned for is killing the Doctor, given that the Church were trying to kill him and given that she may have done so as a child and probably not even the future!Church would imprison a 7 year old for her entire life for that. So I think she's in prison for something different (although possibly no less awful, and possibly also the murder of a good man). But that Octavian from the Angels episodes did know that she killed the Doctor (and indeed that she was created by his Church for just that purpose; and indeed do they think she's the only one who can control him because of what she is: a Time Lady, rather than who she is, (his wife) which they might not know?) and that's why he thinks he'll split if he finds out. OR SOMETHING?

I mean there are aspects of this retcon that work well but...other aspects that don't. And I don't think that Amy and Rory are going to die, but I do think that it's gonna be tricky to give them an ending that isn't...horribly sad in some way. Because if they have to go home to Leadworth, what the hell can they even tell people? No one knows they have a baby, or that they lost it, no one would believe them if they said so. The best case scenario is that they get their 7 year old back and everyone is like bzuh?

I guess we'll find out? I mean I do at least think we're gonna get more on this, so, there's that. I did also think that last season would struggle to have a happy ending, and it did. But a lot of that was because Amy and Rory were still in the TARDIS and that's looking unlikely in the future.

[promethia_tenk]

I am . . . disappointed. Deeply, deeply disappointed. I don't hate it, but it feels like much lazier writing than I was expecting.

I applaud your ability to be so coherent and thoughtful right now. I think it helps a little.

Basically, probably I shall get over this and move on. I don't hate it. It doesn't ruin the character for me. But I was really hoping for something a lot more interesting.

[chaila.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha your icon is perfect.

We were hoping to be able to use this one. Woe. :/

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm sorry. :(

I was actually semi-spoiled, in that I heard what the twist was, but not without some doubts that it wasn't a fakeout since there were false endings circulated, and I knew that. So I wasn't certain but I was at least prepared for the possibility and had thought about it a little, so that's part of why I'm being a bit more coherent than I otherwise would be. But I'm glad it helps somewhat.

Like you, I don't hate it, but it does feel...I don't know. As you say, lazier than I was expecting because we know Moffat is capable of pulling truly impressive twists at times. I mean, this is speculation I specifically recall from before season five started, when I didn't even think I was going to be watching, but someone sent me the leaked photos of Alex Kingston filming for the Angels episodes on that beach, and I clearly remember someone going, "Oh, Pond/River, I wonder if there's a connection! I mean...a River comes from a Pond!"

And in some ways that makes sense because Moffat does tend to telegraph his twists ahead of time so they don't come out of nowhere if you're paying attention, which in general - like with the romance aspect - I applaud. But I guess my issue is I don't feel this one was telegraphed enough. A few odd moments of profound connection between River and her parents in previous episodes, where she catches herself from saying something, or, well, like in this episode where I think it was the first time she'd met Rory as an adult when he didn't know who she was, and that's why it threw her - that was some quite lovely acting from Alex Kingston. The sort of uncertainty, the almost youthful desire to share with him her exciting date, but with a hint of...awkwardness and sorrow. But...if we could just have had some stuff like that, or some idea that she was keeping something secret from both of them and it was weird for her.

I mean, there'd still be the potential ick factor from other things, but I think narratively it would have been more robust, even if perhaps not so much thematically.

But yes, I will probably get over it. Moffat billed it as, "an impossible life begins," and thinking of it as her insane super hero origin story is...something that helps. But that could just be because I have a kink for Superheroines. ♥

raaaaamble

[chaila.livejournal.com]

So I'm still shockingly apathetic. And I've worked out where I think the apathy is coming from. We've known the stupid spoiler since the beginning of the season. So for two months, we've been half trying to convince ourselves it was too ridiculous to be true and we hadn't been dumb when we laughed at the people who'd been suggesting it was the case since the beginning of season 5, and half steeling ourselves in case it turned out to be true. And now it's true, and it's deeply disappointing and still annoying and vaguely squicky for all the reasons you said. And that's all we know, because we still have no idea how the story will go from here? It neither ruined everything nor gave me much comfort that it still won't ruin everything. I don't know whether it will give Amy and River an awesome relationship and explore that connection and make up for the fact that the show has been doing that stupid thing all along whether everyone's only important for who they are to the Doctor, and never hinted that Amy or Rory would care who River is. And she's Time Lordy too, which in any other context would have made me at least really happy. But again, we don't know whether the story will allow River room to ever be off on her own Time Lordy adventures (even if we don't see them? I don't have to see them!), or whether they're really going to make that important for how it affects the Doctor. So it could still be a okay story. Parts of it could still unfold in ways I might like and that might let me get over my disappointment.

But right now, we don't know. And if we'd find out next week or next month, that'd be one thing, but we won't know until September. And I've already spent two months with the stupid spoiler trying to negotiate a balance where I can be interested in the show and not dislike it due to anticipating stupidity. And I'm deeply disappointed that they went for something that I think is kind of silly and doesn't add that much, but I don't necessarily hate it and I think the Time Lord bit could redeem some of the disappointment. But nor do I trust it so nor do I have further energy to engage with it while I wait THREE MORE MONTHS to see whether the stupid spoiler's really going to fuck everything up or not. So basically, I'll watch it in September but I don't think I'm going to be, say, making any River vids over the hiatus. And that's where I think all my apathy is coming from.

But, um, to be slightly less apathetic, I think the fact that she's Time Lordy could be quite interesting if they're interested in the aspects of that that I'm interested in (though I know previously you didn't love this idea), and I don't think a faily story is inevitable from here. They could still make choices in the story that get me over my disappointment at this "reveal." I just don't have the interest to invest too much of my brain or time in it until we know? And if what I'm left with is River Song shooting things and sneaking into prisons, at least I'll always have that. :D?

Re: raaaaamble

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think that you've hit the nail right on the head. On balance I'm glad that I at least had the possibility on my radar even if I was still a little unsure it was true (oh, desperate hope!) because I think I like being able to be more detached than actively devastated right now, but you're right, it really is because it could go in any number of ways right now, and given that "disappointing" is actively one of them, as well as "kinda cool" and given that we won't know for a LONG TIME, comparatively, I just sort of...don't want to invest the energy in it that I did before, before I know what's going on.

The one thing it is worth saying is that I've changed my view on the Time Lordy thing. You're right, I didn't like it before because I felt it'd play as needing to make up a reason why River was "allowed" to be that awesome. There is still a part of me that feels that way a little, but more of me feels that in the specific context of her also being the child of companions, it acts as a stabilising and equalising element that really mitigates the potential "child bride" aspect, while at the same time giving her a whole raft of potential awesome SUPERHERO abilities, which is really Quite Exciting. And even though I'm convinced, by now, she is the Doctor's wife, and that okay again, that brings up the spectre of her genetics in that match, it does actually give her status and importance independent of that within the show's mythology. Like if River Song, Human Archeologist never married the Doctor, she's be awesome, but not really very relevant to the show. Whereas if River Song, Time Lady, never married the Doctor, she'd still be the only other closest thing to a Time Lady in a show that's all about the last of them. So again, there's this frustrating shift of perspective, but if I were being charitable, I could definitely say that this is positive in terms of her power, if neutral in terms of her agency, if that makes sense?

I think that, in some ways, the more I think about the reveal as being, "River Song is a Time Lord (by the way, it's because she was conceived in the TARDIS and then fucked about with by scientists as a baby, and in order to be conceived in the TARDIS her parents kind of had to be companions of the Doctor)," rather than being, "River Song is the child of Amy and Rory (by the way she is also a Time Lord)", the more sort of all right I am with it?

I mean, there'll always be the difficulty of navigating the way I don't want to end up feeling that River didn't choose to the love the Doctor simply because she can never be such an epic force in his early life in an equal way, but depending on how they handle that, it could turn out okay.

And the one thing I will say is that I don't doubt for a second that she has her own Time Lordy adventures. Like, for all that I'm ambivalent about everything else, that is one thing I feel confident is true because it's always been clear that she chooses not to travel all the time with the Doctor, and not just because she's in prison, so I have no doubt that whatever she gets up to in her own life test the limits of her skills and abilities, and if those are suddenly TIME LORDLY, then awesome.

It could, potentially, be like the ending Donna should have had.

Soooo, yes. I'm...I dunno. Less depressed about it than yesterday. Still slightly disappointed because Some Stuff is Weird Now, but willing to explore thinking about her as a Time Lord not as a Pond Jr. IDK.

I'm still feeling like I don't want to put the thought into the show that I used to, except my brain is still a bit CHEW TOY with some stuff. But this is partly cus I'm still interested in the overall story? Like, I do want to know what the other half of this season will tell us about her and what's happened and who's behind what plan and things, so as a puzzle I'm still intrigued.

But I do think I need to recalibrate my feelings on River to focus more on her as a SUPERHERO and less on her as a deconstruction of Epic Romance...if that makes any sense?

...at least we'll always have her sneaking back into prison and shooting things. I do still like when she does that. ;)

[tellitslant]

I, okay, it's half midnight and I'm sick and I really need to watch it again but... like, Moff has been saying that this is only half the reveal, and I still feel that - because sure, we know who she is genetically, but that doesn't answer everything about their relationship? And I like that her parents are really just two ordinary people, the most ordinary, only special because they are special, and though she might be timey-wimey really she just comes from those humans that the Doctor keeps saving. IDK.

I don't think it's amazing and the greatest twist ever. I mean, we really did see it coming. But I'm perfectly fine with it, and I don't think we have all the answers.

I also think it's interesting that River talks about being made a weapon, and that we don't actually know how the Doctor figured out where she was and whether he did save her from Eyepath Lady and really what happened in the interim. And I like that it doesn't, really, change anything about her. Except make her maybe Time Lord-y, which is pretty cool.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Ugh, sickness! *hopes you get better soon*

Yeah, as I was saying more longwindedly above, I think that the more I think about it as revealing that she's part Time Lady and that her story is so much more cause-and-effect complicated than we previously realised (even if that inherently brings up the fears of creepy marrying of an uncle figure too), rather than the "twist" being that she's Pond Jr - that simply being the mechanism by which the Time Lady twist is made possible, the more I am...at least interesting in the ongoing story, even if still slightly concerned about its retrospective effects?

And like, we still don't know who she killed and why she's in Stormcage and stuff. I'm now thinking she is the one who kills the Doctor in the astronaut suit at the start, but, because she's a kid (and because at least at some point, the Church are the ones trying to kill the Doctor), I don't think that's who she's in prison for killing? Which puts an interesting spin on Octavian's words, especially the "who or WHAT she is" (i.e. a weapon created to kill you), and why he believes that River can control him - not because of a personal relationship but because of their flawed understanding of what a Time Lord is.

Equally it throws new light onto the TARDIS being blown up on Amy and Rory's wedding day. It makes me think someone was specifically trying to stop River from existing. Simply not having Rory around anymore didn't do the trick (we know that when parents fall through cracks in space and time their children stick around; witness Amy - plus River was, in any universe, conceived after Rory was restored to humanity). But the Doctor (and the TARDIS) would have been removed forever, and from that point on - well, River would have been a perfectly ordinary child.

And yet, the Silence are also keeping the child they apparently blew up the TARDIS to destroy - or at least I'm convinced that must now be an important part of the equation - alive and safe in space suit. IDEK. But...I am interesting in a solve-the-puzzle kinda way.

I think also part of it is that in terms of viewing the story from River's point of view, nothing much changes, but it is making me feel bad for Amy who at the moment it seems doesn't get to raise her child or spend the rest of her life adventuring since that'd kind of cramp her kid's style? I'm not sure. I do have...a fair amount of hope that there'll be some non-awful ending for her but it's now something on my radar.

But yes. River Song, Time Lady Superhero is...pretty awesome.

[telepresence.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I'm busy writing a letter to the BBC requesting a spinoff show about a Victorian interspecies lesbian crime fighting mystery team.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I KNOW, RIGHT!

[dementedsiren.livejournal.com]

This x 100000, please.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I WILL COSIGN THIS LETTER.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I am...okay? I mean I understand absolutely everything you've said because, you know, it's true. And I kind of love them all anyway, because HOLY SHIT THE ARE AWESOME. And also, I am a sucker for Coincidental Embroidery.

I suppose I mostly feel it's too early to judge. I mean, I kind of hated The Almost People until I watched GMGTW, so I feel that sometimes with these things I have to wait for the payoff, and I'm okay with that. If nothing else, it teaches me patience.

BUT HOLY CRAP, THE LIBRARY. They kind of have to go back and fix that now, don't they? I mean, it's Amy's past, so the Doctor can tell her, and then she'll be pissed and go do something about it, because it's The Story, and we all know how Amy Pond feels about The Story.

Um...that's all I have right now. I am sure I'll be full of rage after I try to read the TWoP recap (because he is going to haaaaaaate it, and sometimes I love watching him pretend he's the smartest person in the whole world), and that always makes me like an episode more. :)

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

You know I actually have half a feeling that two parter, The Silence In The Library, is going to wind up being way more important than we thought at the time.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the finale of this season, sees a return to that Library. I wonder if the Silence were there all along.

[dementedsiren.livejournal.com]

I think I share the apathy of some of the other comments. It does a lot to make a remarkably independent River not so remarkable, and it does it in a way that, it seems, is supposed to make us think she's even more remarkable. The thing is, when she was just an independent anthropologist with no connection to the Doctor, you had to think: Man, not only is she awesome to us, she must be super awesome because she managed to snag the Doctor (rather than him snagging her, or being the "attractor" which is the case in so many of his - even platonic - relationships). Now we find out that's not the case... her story now becomes defined (almost totally, in some ways) by his. That...does not seem as cool to me.

I do hold out hope that this is, as Moffat has said, only the first half of the reveal. I would be interested to see if River ever actually does become a weapon against the Doctor. After all, her fighting skills are not something she's likely develop growing up in a Doctor-nurtured environment. But we'll see, I suppose.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Now we find out that's not the case... her story now becomes defined (almost totally, in some ways) by his. That...does not seem as cool to me.

Yeah, and that's what concerns me too. Though I think part of it remains to be seen how it plays out? I mean, as I've been saying, that was my gut reaction, but from a metatextual point of view there is also the fact that making her a Sort Of Time Lady makes it more difficult for her to be dismissed as "just that person Moffat decided to make his wife," since she now has an unassailable role in the mythology of the universe along with the multi-actress potential of any other Time Lord role (albeit that I now anticipate yet moar people demanding Young Actresses take the role to save us from Alex Kingston's less than adolescent face *facepalm*).

So yeah. I think a lot will depend on the second half of the reveal. Though I like to think that her fighting skills are things she developed - same as her interest in archeology? I guess again...we'll see? I just hate having to wait and see about something I previously loved so much.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I wasn't spoiled, but I've suspected for a long time that River would turn out to be Rory and Amy's daughter. Like you and others, I don't hate the reveal, but I'm not fond of it either. And the more I think about it, the creepier her relationship with The Doctor becomes. The Tardis, apparently, played a role in her development and it plays a role in The Doctor's regeneration/rebirth so now any romantic relationship to me seems slightly incestuous.

ETA: The reason I could ship Doctor/River when I couldn't manage it for most other ships, was that her independence and the method through which they seemed to conduct their relationship, was a massive leveler for that imbalance. It's why I so strongly disliked the idea that he had met her as an "impressionable young girl".

So, if a link could be established between Not!Amy and Amy, was the same true for Not!BabyMelody and Baby Melody? Because I find it deeply problematic - and disturbing - if she fell for The Doctor while still in a cradle! O_o


I'd be curious to know how far back Moffat claims to have planned this twist out. It certainly couldn't have been on anyone's minds when River was first introduced. And it very much feels to me like he had these various storylines which he decided he wanted to connect, the idea to make River the child of Amy and Rory suddenly came to him, and he really didn't think out the implications of the decision. On the most basic level, no matter how awesome River turned out to be, it's depressing as hell to think of Rory and Amy missing out on a large chunk of her life while she was raised in a space suit by strangers. :/

I'm still trying to process of everything. This show has become WAY TOO complicated. I'm starting to miss the season of the Ninth Doctor when the Bad Wolf arc was largely in the background until season's end. Moffat seems consumed with the arc and telling one big story rather than good standalone stories. I'm a supporter of serialized drama, but I'm beginning to feel very drained every week as I try to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there are a bunch of things that are a little weird. :/

As I understand it, the gangers, when they haven't been forcibly separated and magically made sentient by accidental solar tsunamis, is like piloting a copy of your own body, so yes, it really was Amy's mind in Not!Amy and she remembers it all, until she woke up, same as Melody. But, while I find it deeply creepy if the Doctor plays a significant uncle/mentor role to her as a child, I don't find a half hour of interaction as a month old infant all that bad. I doubt she even remembers it (though with a timehead who knows), and it didn't seem like they were trying to set her up as falling for her while in the cradle; she seemed more preoccupied with things like how nice Amy smelled.

Although perhaps I was just being too easily charmed by Eleven speaking Baby. Which makes no sense but was kind of adorable anyway.

I'm actually okay with the level of complexity, I am still interested on that level, though I can see people not liking it - it does make sense. I was never a fan of the Bad Wolf thing so much (although I didn't by any means hate it) because it sort of just happened and wasn't really...I dunno, in some ways it didn't feel complicated enough? But equally you don't want emotions to get lost in the timey wimey puzzle. Which I've never felt happened before in Moffat's Who but maybe has the potential to happen now.

As to Amy and Rory, yeah, definitely. Processing it, I think the issue with River is how much involvement with her life the Doctor had at an early stage. Which could turn out creepy or fine from here on out. Amy and Rory, however, have a bit of a...bleak future as things stand right now, and I kind of can't see how this ends up as anything other than tragic for them on multiple fronts.

[lady-with-cats.livejournal.com]

I am very confused too. I love all the potential Amy/River/Rory familial/non-familial interactions, but... this is really crappy in terms of child!River living through a lot of bad stuff. And Amy/Rory who may/may not be able to raise their child, which... sucks. SO IDK. IDKKKK.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

INDEED. IDK EITHER. IDKKKKK IDK IDK.

Plus I think I'd be a lot more okay with it all if I were even sure we were going to get familial/non-familial interactions? But I have a feeling it'll just be all...about the Doctor still? HMM.

TWO CENTS!

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

River grew up to marry her mother's best friend?
Amy once snogged her son-in-law?
A large part of River and the Doctor's epic timey-wimey romance occurs in front of her parents?
See, when you put it in *normal* terms I can see how it sounds creepy, but for them and how their timelines are all wonky... not really. I love that the four of them are interconnected like that.

But there's also a part of me that dislikes stuff like the way River's caring and lack of rivalry with Amy that was so lovely is now probably going to be interpreted after the fact by some people not as "look, women don't always fight!" but rather as, "aaaah, so that's why they didn't catfight!"
Honestly, my mind didn't even go there. I think that's a valid complaint but not something I'm really that concerned about, because... who cares what interpretations stupid sexist people want to give it? Like, if there's some viewer out there going "Ah, now I understand, there was never catty behavior or romantic jealousy between them because they're mother and daughter, and that's the only way I'd ever get women getting along? Then... I call that person an Idiot and move on. 'Cause that's not what the show is telling me, IMO.

Anyway, why *would* that be a reason (or the Sole Reason) for them not to catfight? From Amy's end, she didn't know River's identity then. From River's end, she could've still acted negatively toward her, jealous or weirded by the attention the Doctor showed to even her own mother. I mean, she would've been a *completely different character* basically, and this new revelation would just as easily be "that's why there's hostility between them" with the whole seemingly-estranged-for-most-of-her-childhood thing. (Just saying, I actually don't think it'd be the first time I've seen shitty cross-generational love triangles done. I've seen female characters who are jealous of THEIR OWN PAST SELVES FOR BEING HOTTER. *cough Time Traveler's Wife*)

It certainly adds another element to those previous episodes to think she's known this about Amy, but I don't think it makes it any worse or shallower personally.

The rest of it I can't really help with -- I actually love that you were so eloquent here putting the pros of all this into words! As for the cons and confusion, I see where you're coming from and don't think my usual brand of OF COURSE JUST LOVE IT ON ITS OWN TERMS will help. *g* It's a lot to take in and a major retcon of previous episodes and your favorite (?) storyline of the series. I hope you end up falling on the happy side of the ridge, or at the very least it doesn't hurt your prior love of everything too badly. (RedactiWho?)

Re: TWO CENTS!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the problem I have (and am trying to overcome) with the interconnection is the way the Doctor can never really stop being the guy with the power in the relationships. It can't ever really be back to front and upside down for him? And he's the reason all this happened? So like, I want it to be all interconnected and back to front, but I'm having trouble making my subconscious not scream, "But it's creeeepy!"

Which is weird because when No Exit aired, I was on the front of the Cylon Incest Train of Hilarity and I loved it with a deadly seriousness even though it was utter crack. Like seriously, I thought turning the show into a musical about incest was the best thing ever. But I think at least there everyone was equally fucked. IDEK. I AM INCONSISTENT.

I think what I need to do/am trying to do is love it on its own terms because it doesn't pass into a level of fail I find utterly distasteful and unignorable (and we haven't seen all of it yet; for all I ultimately disliked BSG, I didn't make that decision with finality until I'd seen the end of it for a reason). What I need to do is find a way to just embrace the crack.

I need to interact with it the way I interact with Sine Qua Non. :p (YOU KNOW IT'S THE BEST EPISODE EVER. XD)

Regarding your points about the catfighting, I agree with everything you say. There is a part of me that loves that when confronted with her own superhero daughter that she doesn't know yet, Amy's response is, WHO IS THIS FUCKING AWESOME CHICK?! And you're right on a technical level there's no reason to interpret it differently. It's more a case that, I dunno, I like when unrelated women don't fight, and it's less that I think this makes the case that they would have otherwise and more that I'm a bit sad to lose an example of platonic friends not feeling threatened by each other.

Though like you say, icky mother-daughter rivalry is definitely another awful trope. So points for that still.

(RedactiWho)

LOL. No. NEVER AGAIN. And also, not that awful. ;)

[heyiya.livejournal.com]

I am enjoying it on its own terms, and saw it slightly-spoiled in that way where you know what you're likely to get and are ready for it, but I agree with all your ambivalences!

I love the big arcs in this season, though, and agree wholeheartedly with the comment above about interspecies Victorian crimefighting team! Even though all Teh Gay feels a lot like highly self-conscious RTD nodding, it still makes me happy.

And I think the idea of a backwards nuclear family is pretty interesting, if we must have a nuclear family at all. Which... WHY ALWAYS BABIES, WORLD, WHY?? I know why, but it still makes me feel tired.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw it that way too, and I'm glad I did. I think I am ultimately coming around to your point of view. My ambivalences are fading slightly in face of the stuff I enjoy well enough on the show's own terms, and I don't feel the show's terms are faily enough to require ditching it or even incredibly harsh critique, but I do feel relieved at having written down my ambivalences, because, well, I have them and I think they're valid and they're going to stick around, even if I can chill out and enjoy other bits of it. It's sad but it's not the end of the world.

Like you I do think that there was something slightly selfconscious about the inclusion of Teh Gay, but better than just totally ignoring it and I enjoyed the way it was included here.

I ALSO love the idea of a backwards nuclear family. I think my problem is that I have trouble seriously seeing the Doctor in the child role in any capacity, even though he can be childlike, which makes it all weird and icky when River's in the child role all of a sudden.

But yes, it's at least a more interesting nuclear family than otherwise.

WHY ALWAYS BABIES, WORLD, WHY?? I know why, but it still makes me feel tired.

OH GOD, I HAVE CONFESSION TO MAKE. I THINK I CURSED THE TELLY. I don't watch very much TV at all, really. I've basically fallen back to watching about four shows with any regularity. Doctor Who, Fringe, Leverage and, with extremely erratic frequency and no degree of completeness, Bones.

Fringe had a Surprise!Baby, Doctor Who had a Surprise!Baby, and I made the mistake the other week of being bored and deciding to catch up with this season of Bones which I hadn't watched since like...I dunno, probably before Christmas, and IT ENDED WITH A DAMN SURPRISE BABY (and some other people having a not!surprise baby).

I think I have cursed the TV machine and now I fear for every female character on Leverage that somehow, by watching it, I will cause this shit to happen. It's not a good year for me, babies and television, and seriously, I'm usually far less paranoid and annoyed by Babiez In My Telly than most people!

*is a bit twitchy*

[beerbad.livejournal.com]

I feel like I'm on a ridge and on one side, I can fall over into, "I do not care, I am just going to love it on its own terms," and on the other side is, "Oh dear god what was that it's all weird and icky now and what did they do to her and why can't she just be River Song!"

For what it's worth, I feel the same way. MY FEELINGS ARE CONFUSING ME. Baaaaah.

(It's definitely not a good day to be an Amy/River 'shipper. Oy.)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

OH ALL THE FEELINGS. *SHAKES FIST IN AIR*

Yes, I do feel very bad for all the Amy/River shippers. Fortunately I never was one, ironically because I felt River treated Amy too much like a/her kid for me to buy it, but I feel for all you who are/were!

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about how I feel on the whole thing. I think River is fantastic, regardless of her parents. I'm hoping the follow through proves it will work.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me too. I think that's where I'm at with it by now. I think a lot will hang on what happens in the back half and whether River's relationship with her parents is explored?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

it doesn't change the fact I feel shortchanged. It's gonna be weird watching older episodes now. It's just...gonna be weird. And creates a "my love life is allllll" feeling that I never used to get from her, because before she had this whole life, and right now it happened to be with the Doctor, but instead now, she's also kind of...ignoring her mum? IDK.

This is something that I have a big problem with. She should have a much more intense relationship with both Rory and Amy if they're her parents; instead it reads like the only important person in her life is the Doctor, which, DNW.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm...coming around to it more as time goes by which is a bit of a relief as I didn't want to be stuck hating it or something, but that's the bit that really niggles.

I do think that there are some reasonable explanations - like the fact that she may well see her parents fairly frequently, and after she drops off the blank diary and helps Amy remember the Doctor back into existence, (which I guess now is also remembering her own conception back into existence o.O), she goes and has tea with her parents and is like, "Dude, it was nuts, I had to pretend Dad was a PLASTIC CENTURION LOL". And also by then, she already knows that sometimes she has to pretend not to know them.

But I'm not sure that, even those all logically sound explanations, they're emotionally satisfying ones.

Looking back at the Angels episodes, while it's not how I would have done it, it is clearer that River is very protective of Amy and is trying to take care of her. I miss that simply being River trying to protect the girl the Doctor is ditching all over the place because she's already seen Amy's childhood home in the Pandorica episodes (which have already happened for her), but I at least accept that there was an effort put in there to add a level of interaction that would be clearer in retrospect, even if I'm not sure it hit the exact right note. But in the Pandorica and Silence episodes, I'm not sure how much is there?

I do think that it's fixable to a degree. Her interactions with Rory are much more telling in the scene where he comes to see her in Stormcage and I think that's supposed to be one of the first times - from her POV - that her father hasn't known who she is, and she's...trying to adjust to it, but still spills out at him like a kid, a little. And I guess if we see more of that at various points, it might retrospectively make me more inclined to believe that by the time the other episodes happen, they're at a point in River's timeline where she's just very used to this.

But I still really wish there were more of that stuff in those other episodes - like River seeking Amy's approval at an odd moment, or getting incredibly defensive or Rory at another. I dunno.

I guess we'll see?

[cyborganize.livejournal.com]

K, I'm writing this before reading the other comments, so I may be back. We finally watched it last night and I'm desperately trying to process what happened (and what might fill in the gaps).

As a result of being thoroughly spoiled, I came to terms with a lot of the Melody Pond stuff beforehand. Actually it was handled much better than I imagined within an excellent (if far too short) episode. The fact that River and the Doctor could still flirt in the very moment of the revelation went a long way toward reassuring me. And on balance, I like the idea of her having a "time-head" since she's a HYBRID.

But I am really, really creeped out by the idea that the Doctor was River's benefactor/protector throughout her childhood. So I'm obsessing about the spacesuit girl and how the hell that's going to work. I mean, wouldn't River *remember* being held captive by the Silence as a child (or do we chalk this up to the Silence's weird mind-wiping thing)? Would the Doctor deliberately summon her back in time to meet HERSELF? I still believe/hope that the astronaut events (both the Doctor dying and River being held captive) will be erased in some sort of timey wimey paradox. Of course, there's also a possibility that the Doctor only *theorizes* Melody Pond is also spacesuit girl but actually there's another explanation. I mean, obviously he knows less than his FUTURE self about this situation and we're figuring it out with him as the season progresses.

My theory is that -- since the Gamma Forest stuff isn't a reference to past canon, right? -- that Melody Song will be dropped off at the Gamma Forest as a baby to grow up in the quiet countryside, and only when she's an adult find about her provenance. I mean, there was all that foreshadowing about how the Doctor's visit was the only exciting thing that ever happened there, and how he did something so warlike and terrible that the Church thenceforth saw him as an enemy. I imagine that's going to be part of the back half of the season.

But yeah, I remain kind of stuck on the gross implications of the Doctor having to rescue River from evil forces at one or more points throughout her childhood, like, when she can actually know and remember him -- e.g. from the Silence. And yeah, there's no way it can turn out well for Amy and Rory as parents either. I have to fanwank it well enough for myself to write my drabbles...

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

As you'll see from reading other comments, I am actually coming around to being okay with it - at least until they screw it up in the Autumn - to a surprising degree and agree that it was better handled than I was expecting.

I sorry I spoiled you! You kept asking me impossible to answer questions and I have NO POKER FACE! If only you had interrogated me by text. That said, like you, I think being prepared helped, ultimately.

I have a couple of thoughts here, the first is that I really do think that it's Melody in the suit because Moffat doesn't actually seem to be pulling bluffs like that so much as telling us straight that something is true and then watching us go THAT CAN'T BE TRUE and then going, well yes, it is. BUT ALSO THIS THING. (i.e. River really is his lover, it really was Amy's baby in the suit, it really is as simple as Pond=River).

I think how much River remembers is up for debate but given the way the Silence's specific power is to fuck with memory so that eventually - the episode says - even information you know about them fades unless you constantly refresh it to yourself and each other - which was why Canton forgot what he was told during those three months and they had to remind him - yeah I think it's been set up that River might genuinely not remember a lot of her childhood spent with them.

I also think that she spent a lot of those episodes lying. Which really, really annoyed me because, you know, where's the fun in that for emotional authenticity? But then I figured actually, it's kind of interesting because the Doctor has put her in the position he put himself - crossing her own timeline, which she herself explains is incredibly dangerous. River throughout the episodes is analogous to the Doctor in the opening before he dies. And that's potentially interesting and again implies a...shared responsibility for this endeavour? River and the Doctor cross their own timelines...to what end? (Also, while I still think, "that was cruel, even by your standards," was referable to his death, there's an interesting interpretation that she meant making her watch herself kill him again; there's also the idea that she doesn't really remember doing that because of the Silence, and only just put it together at that damn picnic - though I am still working out the way River shoots at, potentially, herself...)

With regards to the Doctor knowing her as a child, yes, obviously I agree that is ick. I didn't so much get the impression that he was going to be her guardian throughout her childhood though? I mean obviously until she's 8ish, unless there's ANOTHER crossing of timelines, she's off with the Silence? I kind of figured their interactions would probably be briefer (though as Amy, Lorna and Reinette show, brief=/=non-damaging).

Actually one of the reasons I have come to embrace her TIMEHEAD, aside from the awesome implications of hybridity, is the way I feel it increases her control of her own destiny and understanding of the causality loops she may be stuck in. Certainly it does a lot to equalise their relationship even when she is not ahead of him in the timestream. It puts her in a similarly unique situation to him and provides a reason why they might feel drawn to each other through that shared Time Lord Experience beyond her simply having been ickily groomed from childhood. It's...nice to think about him being the only one who can keep up with her just as much as the reverse.

So in short, I see potential here. But a lot depends on how they handle the back half and how they will hopefully NOT make the Doctor her Uncle Figure in childhood because EWWWWW.

I also am definitely sad for Amy and Rory if they don't get to raise her, but I'm equally concerned about the possibility of erasing timelines in case they ERASE RIVER and just give us Melody in a normal non-timehead life. D:

The Gamma Forest isn't, to my knowledge, from past canon, but if Doctor means Mighty Warrior and River has a connection to it, should we rightly be calling her Mighty Warrior Song?

ALL THE QUESTIONS.