Once Upon A Time: Whose Castle is it Anyway?

[beccatoria]

Okay, I'm super confused about whose castle is whose and who's ruling what.

Right before the curse gets cast, we know that Regina isn't queen anymore, so I kind of figured that Snow was the queen and Charming was married to her so he was a Prince. We know he's still a Prince because everyone, including himself, still calls him that, but people are way more ambiguous about Snow's title. We also know that even if it wasn't public knowledge that he was really the son of a shepard, his "father", the King, is still alive, so clearly he didn't inherit that throne either.

So that would all make sense, except for the part where Snow's father's castle is on the side of a mountain and Charming's Not!Dad's castle is the one in the lake with the bridge to it - which is also the castle Snow and Charming are apparently ruling from after "taking back the kingdom".

I kind of assumed they were trying to take back Snow's kingdom, and Charming's Not!Dad's troops were just getting involved annoyingly due to his Charming-related grudge. But since they appear to claim his castle, am I wrong? But in that case, surely Charming would be a King? Not a Prince Consort?

Unless they stole back Snow's kingdom, then conquered Charming's Not!Dad's kingdom, THEN decided that a palace by the lake is totally more blinging than one on the side of a hill?

I'M SO CONFUSED. WHY IS IT THE WRONG CASTLE?

Comments

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I let that slide because AWESOME LADY ROAD TRIP. Knifingham Castle is really, really not the castle they were in in season one.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Actually I'm confused because I think it is? I mean, Snow and Charming were ALWAYS in the castle by the lake, far back as the first episode, but that's ALSO the castle Snow storms with her army of fairies, dwarves and werewolves to rescue Charming from his dad, only to discover that he traded her to the Queen and he's not actually there? Unless I'm remembering totally wrong?

But yes, awesome lady road trip ftw! :D

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

In the clip of the clouds surrounding the castle, it's not Knifingham. I think? I'm really tired.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I DON'T EVEN KNOW ANYMOAR *criez*

It certainly looked like it to me? Like when the fairies were flying towards it, it had the same sort of in-a-castle-with-a-bridge feel? But at this point I genuinely am just confusing myself more.

Is its actual name Knifingham? Did I totally miss that?!

ETA: WAIT SORRY - I thought the wrong one was Knifingham; yeah it's not, it's the palace that they rescue Charming from, but that's the same palace they appear to be living in in the Pilot? Hence the confusion...

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Knifingham is the one with the pointy towers, so called by the TWoP recap because it sounds like Nottingham, which sounds like a story place that might have a castle. ;)

And yes. They rescue Charming from the castle which they later live in when the curse is cast. Last season, Snow was all "Let's take our kingdom's back!" and I was all "I can see so many ways this ends badly, but you're pretty!" and...I guess they took Charming's kingdom and forced the Evil Queen to retreat? I got nothing.

[grimorie.livejournal.com]

I replied to this in Tumblr but I don't trust Tumblr with my messages so.

It's also very confusing to me. If that isn't George's castle, maybe it's the Summer Palace Snow mentioned in 'The Heart is a Lonely Hunter'? Snow seemed very attached to it because it was her mother's favorite castle.

Also, so glad you put in the 'she's not queen anymore' because by taking back the kingdom, Snow is Queen Regnant. Maybe Regina retains the 'Queen Mother' title?

Snow seems okay leaving the big castle to Regina during the pilot.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm behind on my dash, so I, also, will reply here!

I originally thought it was the summer palace too - like at the start of the series, but then I noticed how similar the sets looked and double-checked and sure enough it's the castle that Snow appears to be storming to rescue Charming when his "father" has him captive (but has secretly traded him to Regina).

I suppose, hypothetically, they could have instigated a military coup against King George based on Charming's entirely fraudulent claim to the throne, knowing that George could never openly acknowledge the situation without acknowledging that James wasn't his son by blood either, if that's the sort of thing people would care about? And then they ALSO defeat Regina, thus making her "not queen" anymore? But that doesn't seem very...charming. :/

Even the notion that by marrying the fictitious heir, they unified the kindgdoms and overthrew George? I guess? But clearly they overthrew him without killing him which seems odd because what's the pretext for him abdicating in favour of his son, then, and anyway, if that happened Charming would be a king which he's clearly not, which, as you say, implies Snow is Queen Regnant.

HEAD ASPLODES.

I figure Snow left the other castle to Regina probably out of a combination of Snow never having been very vindictive and the fact that it was probably logistically beyond their ability at that time to throw a furious sorceress out of her home if she didn't want to be thrown?

I have clarified...precisely nothing. :p

[grimorie.livejournal.com]

Maybe Regina allowed King George to use the summer palace?

...yeah I got nothin' it's not a dealbreaker but I do hope the writers thought this one through 'cause it's gonna niggle at me forever if they don't address it!

You know what I want to do? If I were more Photoshop savvy I would love to make a Game of Thrones style poster with the whole house of White, including Red with the the titles below each person: Regina: Queen Mother, Snow: Queen Regnant, Charming: Prince Consort, Emma: Princess (Heir to the Throne), Red: (er, I haven't thought of a title for her but she seemed like Snow's second-in-command, so whatever is the equivalent to that!).

BTW, I love your icon! I should really get an OUAT icon!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree, it's not a dealbreaker but *crosses fingers*

But yeah that'd be an AWESOME poster. I actually don't watch Game of Thrones and have no desire to, but I've seen that sort of poster. And I don't care that White is possibly her middle name not her surname (has that ever been clarified?) IT'S THE HOUSE OF WHITE.

Also, and I really have no idea why I know this, but if you're following at least the conventions of the British monarchy (the only one I have...vague, indirect experience of), then Emma would either be the Heir Presumptive (if the succession favours males, so if Emma ever got a brother he would replace her as first in line to the throne), or, preferably, Heir Apparent (if the succession is gender neutral and she is therefore the next in line to the throne who can't be pre-empted by someone else).

You could probably also refer to her as the Crown Princess. In the UK it's not an official title, though, so much as a descriptive term. "She is the crown princess," rather than, "this is Crown Princess Emma."

...and now I sound like some sort of monarchist when actually I think they're an anachronism I only don't actively dislike because they probably bring in more money in tourism than they cost us. Oops?

As to Red! She totally needs some fantastic royal military title because that seems to be her job. You know, that and Wolfing down on enemies. Unfortunately I don't really know any, except that it would likely be customary for her to be knighted, at least.

Snow would be the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, so probably Red would be a General. In the UK the top general who advises the Commander-in-Chief is known as the Chief of Defence but that doesn't sound very spangly or fairytaleish.

The Lady Red, Commander of the Queen's Armed Forces?

(And yes, get iconsssss!)

[grimorie.livejournal.com]

Oh no. Now you're making me want to read a whole epic gen story about the House of White under attack. (AND YES IT'S HOUSE OF WHITE! So glad I found someone else who feels this!)

I don't even know what the context would be modern AU, or Storybrooke thrust back into post-apocalyptic Enchanted Forest bringing with it all the modern trappings and thus starting a steampunk sort of society!

But I have so many feeels about The Lady Red of the Queen's Armed Forces. SO. MANY.

Can you imagine the awesome story of Queen Snow the Just (secretly called Bandit Queen by her detractors because of her stay in the forest -- its a title Snow relishes a little because the woods will always stay with her now), her beautiful prince, her right hand, the Lady Red, and her very shaky alliance with the Dark Queen, her mother but how they have to band together because of enemies from without?

And the sudden arrival of the Lost Princess?

OT:I also love extra info about the monarchy (we don't have a monarchy here so its all so foreign and exotic to me! Also, it gives me so many feelings on fantasy monarchies!).

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Some of my House of White feels are residual leftovers from a TV miniseries called The Tenth Kingdom. It's cheesier than Once Upon A Time in some ways, but features some killer stuff re: Evil Queens again. It's old by now too, but if you haven't seen it you might enjoy it.

But DEAR LORD your AU idea. I'm so in love with the idea of Snow, THE BANDIT QUEEN I cannot express it in words. It's too amazingly perfect, HOW DID YOU INVENT IT?!

Ugh, and The Lady Red of the Queen's Armed Forces, and an alliance with Regina, the Queen (to steal Mulan's terminology). I want to know WHO the evil invaders are and where the Lost Princess has been, if they're all still in fairytale land?

With his child-snatching tendencies, I suppose Rumpelstiltskin could be a candidate for Emma's absence? Perhaps also the joint threat Regina and Snow must ally against?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH WHY ISN'T IT REAL.

[grimorie.livejournal.com]

The 10th Kingdom! I WATCHED THAT TOO! Best fairytale title credits EVER. I have to rewatch it but I knew I loved it!

I've had the Bandit Queen well, Bandit Princess idea way back season 1 and how when Snow ascended to power her court are still a wee bit wary of Snow. Snow pretends she's not aware of it but she very much is.

If you're familiar with Queen of Attolia books, their reaction to Snow is kind of like how the nobility of Attolia reacted to Eugenides wary and masking it with contempt. I have serious feelings about Snow winning over the court. Snow's aware that people in the court supported Regina over her but can't prove it because they would always point out that Regina coerced them (like Voldemort).

And, she can't exactly go accusing people of being disloyal because she needs the nobility to stay in power.

So she plays the sweet and just card but and hides her craftiness. So people think its Charming and The Lady Red who holds the power, at first.

But slowly the people still loyal to Regina are bending to Snow's will. Rumors start to swirl about visits at midnight, about a slip of a girl waiting in bedrooms, wearing clothes a bandit would wear. Suddenly all the hostile Dukes are no longer hostile, and the more moderate people of their house become more prominent in court...

(I just have so many feels about Snow and Queenship!)

Yes, I feel like Rumpelstiltskin is involved somehow, the trickster, who stole away the Princess!

OMG, now I wanna write that!

[lady-with-cats.livejournal.com]

I assumed that Snow never got her kingdom back (do we actually know Regina isn't queen anymore???). I've always thought Snow and Charming were attempting to get back Charming's Not!Dad's kingdom (the room with the table from the latest ep is awfully similar to the council table in the pilot). The raid etc all happened to that castle by the lake. Charming is still called a Prince because it's like his name, but he's actually a king. Whale mentions something like, "You aren't my King" so...? Now my head hurts.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well, in the pilot, when Snow points the sword at her, she says, "She isn't the Queen, anymore!" so I think that, yes, she must at least have been deposed in some way even if the country was like, in a civil war or something?

Taking back No!Dad's kingdom makes more sense in terms of where they're fighting but really doesn't make much sense in terms of motivation? They have a legitimate personal beef with Not!Dad, sure, but Charming's claim to the throne is fundamentally fraudulent so it seems weird that they'd go after that kingdom instead of the one Regina's ruling, if nothing else, there's no evidence that George is habitually cruel to his subjects the way Regina is?

I would agree about Prince Charming being the totality of his nickname, but Whale actually says, "you aren't my prince," and he refers to Henry as being the "grandson of a prince," whereas I don't think he's ever been referred to as a king at all (though then again, Snow's never been referred to as a queen).

MY HEAD HURTS TOO.

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen the last ep, but it seems confusing. I thought 'the kingdom' was Snow's kingdom. The one she would have had if Regina hadn't taken over. The dwarves seem loyal to that and that makes sense.

But now we have multiple time periods so I'm all confused too.

Charming is a king. But he'll always be Prince Charming.

I so hope you vid this show someday! Would love to see what you'd make of it. :-)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the thing that mostly confuses me is that narratively, it makes total sense that it's Snow's kingdom, but in terms of what they're showing, they always seem to be fighting to reclaim Charming's Not!Dad's castle?

And like, regardless of his nickname, Charming wouldn't be a king just because he married the queen? Like, he could be, Fairytale Land might not follow western historical protocol on the matter, but generally, the husband of a queen who rules in her own right becomes a prince consort, not a king himself since king outranks queen and he's just the spouse of the sovreign? Like, in Britain right now, we have Queen Elizabeth II and her husband, Prince Phillip?

SO CONFUSED. That's basically the only message I'm taking from these seeming contradictions. I hope they'll eventually be explained, but I guess we'll see.

As to vidding! I did vid it a few times - here (http://beccatoria.livejournal.com/162528.html) and here (http://beccatoria.livejournal.com/168379.html)! Apparently I only vid it to weird remix music. :p

P.S. LOVE the icon! :D

[cyborganize.livejournal.com]

I'd guess this is probably just an oopsie on the production side! Someone on the CGI/post team mixed up their castle shots. It definitely makes more sense that Snow would have ousted Regina and be ruling her father's mountain kingdom while Charming no longer has anything to do with his Not!Dad who is still ruling the lake kingdom. I venture that you've given it more thought than they have, though. HOUSE OF WHITE FTW!