BSG: The Woman, King
Feb. 13th, 2007 11:39 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccatoriaOkay, first, the title. Why? Just…why? What is it supposed to mean? Apparently there’s supposed to be a comma in it (see above) but it still doesn’t make any sense.
I’m convinced there’s a fantastic episode hiding in here somewhere. They had a brilliant set-up. Great to see the return of civilians on Galactica and to see Helo’s new job. The set-up allowed for some very subtle commentary on minority beliefs, on the ethics of dealing with a group who refuses medical treatment, on the ethics of treating people against their request, on the fire-cracker situation where failure of medication to save someone can be misconstrued as medication causing death. About the ethics of selectively offering life-saving treatment to those more likely to continue to comply with it and therefore recover. Saggitarion racism struck me immediately as a chance to explore not only racism, but a chance to explore "invisible" isms – discrimination against gay people or a religious minority – where a person’s affiliation is not necessarily readily apparent (there does not appear to be a clear visible difference of skin colour or even clothing style). The parallels between this and the fear that anyone could be a cylon is obvious. This is a chance to explore the way no one wants to acknowledge that racism exists in "modern, western" society because it’s too ugly. It’s easier to not mention it until the object of your discrimination is on your doorstep, threatening to infect you with the plague. It’s easy for Adama to look the other way in the middle of a crisis because "that kind of thing doesn’t happen". People want to make excuses. A way to approach racism the way we end up dealing with it now – not like the past where is was just “normal” to be blatant about how X race were lazy and ugly, no, now it gets couched and covered by excuses. "I’m not being racist, but..." is a completely redundant and hypocritical way to start a sentence.
This was a great show to tackle these issues. Because the Saggitarions were clearly the victims of racism, with the establishment turning a blind eye to their needs, but also genuinely putting others in danger due to their cultural issues. Now that’s a level of discussion worthy of this show – that’s Flesh & Bone level reversal.
Unfortunately, a lot of that gets undercut by the simplistic hate-motivated killings perpetrated by Dr Robert. The parallels with Black Market are not unfounded – both tackle worthy issues, but ultimately undercut any deeper meaning by delivering a pat, “deep” ending. Phelan is made to be a child molester (or to facilitate child molesters) so that he’s “bad” enough to get shot, thereby invalidating any weight or interest his arguments may otherwise have had. Similarly, Robert is made to be an angry hate-filled racist. He’s not simply withholding meds from Saggitarions or providing them with substandard care, or even euthanizing them on the sly (all horrific, race-based things, which would still, I feel, have been easier to incorporate into a story of a Doctor forced to make desperate decisions in the face of overwhelming medical shortages), no, he’s actively killing them because he hates them and thinks they’re worthless scumbags. Which, again, puts things much more squarely into right/wrong categories than I’m traditionally happy with in this show.
Actually, I’d argue that this episode does a better job than Black Market because they manage a fairly subtle discussion on the topic until the apprehension of Robert. Though the resolution really does wreck it.
It would have been interesting to see the internal racial conflicts and underlying racism in our main characters if it didn’t feel so ‘out of nowhere’. I mean, they’ve established that Saggitarion is looked down on, but not to this extent. I know that perhaps it’s just because suddenly it’s an issue. Case in point: I’d heard that people were racist against Polish people, but never really saw any of it until I moved to the city I’m in now. There are loads of Polish people (to the point that there’s a Polish supermarket across the road from my house and adverts in the job paper in Polish) and…yeah, it’s really surprising how much crap I hear people talking about them. And I’m fairly certain that it wasn’t like this before the recent changes in European law made it easier for people from Poland (and other countries) to move to the UK. Basically, until now, I was never in a situation to see anti-Polish racism. So perhaps we never really saw Saggitarion racism among the Galactica crew because they weren’t confronted by the "unwashed masses" before. They just had to deal with “good” Saggitarions like Dee who’d seen the light…
Still, it felt a little jarring – not in a "I’m shocked these people could be racist!" way, but in a "where did THIS come from," way. Like in the never-before-seen-previouslies, I just can’t buy Gaeta being anything less than totally politically correct.
I’m wondering about the Chief. This is the second time we’ve seen him getting more than slightly drunk at a bar without his wife. Also, I was confused by his disdain for the Saggitarions as religious freaks because…isn’t he Geminese? Aren’t they like the fundamentalists of the fleet? I’ve concluded that if the Geminese are the Born-Again Fundamentalists, then the Saggitarions are the Gnostic Pagans, which I actually think is a cool comparison. I quite liked the throwaway line that they don’t believe in medicine because both the body and the mind are illusions. Very questioning of reality, very reminiscent of reality-as-prison. Very Gnostic, from my limited understanding of that term.
One good upshot of the sudden attack of racism was seeing Dee’s reaction. Oh, boy that was painful. Put up a front, bitch about them so they don’t bitch about you, and it’s probably not all even faked. I’m not a member of any minority that’s as marginalized and attacked as the Saggitarions, and I’m so grateful for that. Though I do sympathise with Dee’s attitude in a small way, being an American, with no accent, raised in the UK. I hear a lot of shit spoken about the US, and most of it is hypocritical BS, to be honest. But the choice I get is, a) shut up and listen to it and don’t make a fuss, b) point out the hypocrisy and look like I’m defending something I’m probably madder about than they are, c) join in so they think I’m one of the “good ones” or d) try to mollify them and apologise (when it’s not my fault).
So yeah, I get where Dee is coming from a little. I even get the anger. Why should everyone else get to be madder than you when it’s your people who are behaving in a way you believe to be self-destructive, or who are being manipulated and lied to, abandoning principles you believe in.
What I’m not sure about is why Dee suddenly has this hate-on for Cottle. I mean, choosing to visit a different Doctor (who is also in charge of the meds for the disease you have – though…how did she catch it?), that I can understand. But protesting that she doesn’t want to see Cottle when she’s so sick she can barely stand, um, why?
Another thing this episode had the potential to do marvelously was the politics of the racist. Why these people believe the things they do. Not just in terms of medical professionals like Cottle nursing anger because these traditions mean they have to watch patients die, but people like Athena, desperate to find someone other than them to be a target. People like Adama who just don’t have the time because they have an overcrowded, overworked Battlestar to deal with, and who end up racist by omission.
My Crazy Love For Tigh has been somewhat restored by this episode. I still don’t believe he’s fit for duty, and it was nice to see his unprofessional, dangerous, loyal-only-to-his-own streak rear its beautiful head. Plus Helo decked him, which was not as awesome as when Roslin slapped him, but I’ll take what I can get.
I actually thought that Helo did a decent job of carrying the episode. I was not as put-off by his way of acting “anger/distress” which usually involves making a face like something smells really bad, as I usually am. (And I’m being unkind. I’ve always enjoyed watching Helo and think that Tahmoh Pennikett is a decent actor.)
It was nice, yet surreal, to see Hera with her actual parents. I wonder if being passed between three different families before the age of two will affect her. I honestly wouldn’t have minded seeing more of their interactions as a family simply because they only JUST got her back (what WAS wrong with her on the Basestar?) Who do they leave her with when they’re both at work? Is there a crèche? Would they honestly feel comfortable leaving their half-cylon kid with strangers?
It was nice to see Helo asserting his identity separate to Athena. Though I’m glad that they didn’t include the cut scene at the end (was there a longer version of that online?). There could be no good outcome to that conversation, so while I respect Helo’s desire to confess, I’m not sure how they could have resolved it without the cop out of fading to black or without making me relive my confusion all over again. You know, respecting Helo wanting to be a stand-up guy, but thinking, really dude, do you have any idea of the consequences of your actions? Actually that’s one of the reasons I’m glad Helo WAS such a stand up freight-train of moral authority in this episode. After the stunt he pulled killing those Cylons, he sort of has to be to maintain any kind of integrity.
IMAGINARY GAIUS IS BACK! I was so glad to see him! And how intriguing his words to Caprica (oh Tricia Helfer, I love your acting). She wants to be a human while Baltar wants to be a cylon. Oh, irony! Also, Roslin, watching her make out with her imaginary boyfriend through tinted glass…totally voyeuristic and slightly creepy! The most intriguing revelation of the scene though – they’re capturing her imaginary conversations. Now that has some connotations.
I agree with Roslin about Zarek. If he really is scared and about what he’s advocating. I can’t understand how this fits into his character. He’s always been about the revolution. He’s always been about destroying the status quo and starting again. I find the idea that he’s suddenly changed his mind, become less naïve, and more willing to control the people “for their own good” to be…disappointing. I liked him as extremely principled. I can’t work out how this idea fits into any of his principles. Even the Circle fit into his idea of a new order rising from the ashes. That was the point – he was acting violently behind the scenes to make it possible (which I suppose does betray some controlling mass-decision making tendencies). If anything, Zarek is Fight Club. Which is a great and often misunderstood book. It’s not about asserting your identity with violence – it’s about destroying yourself – and everything else, because you’re trapped by history, boxed into this nonsensical society we’ve created which puts all the wrong things first (or perhaps I misunderstand it because I’m not an angry young man…) The point is, Zarek wants to destroy the past and start fresh. I’ve said before (I think) that Zarek has all these ideas about social reform and completely, and TOTALLY, ignores the existence of the Cylon. It really is as if he wants to constantly abandon anything that happened in the past and continue on from this instant forwards. So I suppose, perhaps, he’s worried that dragging up the treason during New Caprica and the attacks (what he was trying to avoid by getting rid of the worst offenders via the Circle) will only further trap the fleet in their patterns of fear and spite and anger and prevent any kind of forward movement as they fixate on the past?
I’m still not sure I’m not fanwanking this, though.
In summary, this really could have been a phenomenal episode if it had had slightly more build-up regarding the racial tensions re: the Saggitarions earlier in the season, and if it had had an ending that lived up to the intriguing and subtle racial commentary that existed in the first thirty-five minutes of the show. Unfortunately, it didn’t. It had a two-dimensional, easy-out ending, and nothing Dr Robert shouted would have come off as anything other than the ravings of a mad-man. If it had been a story of an insane, murderous Doctor, the ending would have been fine. But it wasn’t. It was a story about racism, and slapping on the insane, murderous Doctor ending undercut a lot of the power that might otherwise have existed in the intelligent and layered setup.
I’m convinced there’s a fantastic episode hiding in here somewhere. They had a brilliant set-up. Great to see the return of civilians on Galactica and to see Helo’s new job. The set-up allowed for some very subtle commentary on minority beliefs, on the ethics of dealing with a group who refuses medical treatment, on the ethics of treating people against their request, on the fire-cracker situation where failure of medication to save someone can be misconstrued as medication causing death. About the ethics of selectively offering life-saving treatment to those more likely to continue to comply with it and therefore recover. Saggitarion racism struck me immediately as a chance to explore not only racism, but a chance to explore "invisible" isms – discrimination against gay people or a religious minority – where a person’s affiliation is not necessarily readily apparent (there does not appear to be a clear visible difference of skin colour or even clothing style). The parallels between this and the fear that anyone could be a cylon is obvious. This is a chance to explore the way no one wants to acknowledge that racism exists in "modern, western" society because it’s too ugly. It’s easier to not mention it until the object of your discrimination is on your doorstep, threatening to infect you with the plague. It’s easy for Adama to look the other way in the middle of a crisis because "that kind of thing doesn’t happen". People want to make excuses. A way to approach racism the way we end up dealing with it now – not like the past where is was just “normal” to be blatant about how X race were lazy and ugly, no, now it gets couched and covered by excuses. "I’m not being racist, but..." is a completely redundant and hypocritical way to start a sentence.
This was a great show to tackle these issues. Because the Saggitarions were clearly the victims of racism, with the establishment turning a blind eye to their needs, but also genuinely putting others in danger due to their cultural issues. Now that’s a level of discussion worthy of this show – that’s Flesh & Bone level reversal.
Unfortunately, a lot of that gets undercut by the simplistic hate-motivated killings perpetrated by Dr Robert. The parallels with Black Market are not unfounded – both tackle worthy issues, but ultimately undercut any deeper meaning by delivering a pat, “deep” ending. Phelan is made to be a child molester (or to facilitate child molesters) so that he’s “bad” enough to get shot, thereby invalidating any weight or interest his arguments may otherwise have had. Similarly, Robert is made to be an angry hate-filled racist. He’s not simply withholding meds from Saggitarions or providing them with substandard care, or even euthanizing them on the sly (all horrific, race-based things, which would still, I feel, have been easier to incorporate into a story of a Doctor forced to make desperate decisions in the face of overwhelming medical shortages), no, he’s actively killing them because he hates them and thinks they’re worthless scumbags. Which, again, puts things much more squarely into right/wrong categories than I’m traditionally happy with in this show.
Actually, I’d argue that this episode does a better job than Black Market because they manage a fairly subtle discussion on the topic until the apprehension of Robert. Though the resolution really does wreck it.
It would have been interesting to see the internal racial conflicts and underlying racism in our main characters if it didn’t feel so ‘out of nowhere’. I mean, they’ve established that Saggitarion is looked down on, but not to this extent. I know that perhaps it’s just because suddenly it’s an issue. Case in point: I’d heard that people were racist against Polish people, but never really saw any of it until I moved to the city I’m in now. There are loads of Polish people (to the point that there’s a Polish supermarket across the road from my house and adverts in the job paper in Polish) and…yeah, it’s really surprising how much crap I hear people talking about them. And I’m fairly certain that it wasn’t like this before the recent changes in European law made it easier for people from Poland (and other countries) to move to the UK. Basically, until now, I was never in a situation to see anti-Polish racism. So perhaps we never really saw Saggitarion racism among the Galactica crew because they weren’t confronted by the "unwashed masses" before. They just had to deal with “good” Saggitarions like Dee who’d seen the light…
Still, it felt a little jarring – not in a "I’m shocked these people could be racist!" way, but in a "where did THIS come from," way. Like in the never-before-seen-previouslies, I just can’t buy Gaeta being anything less than totally politically correct.
I’m wondering about the Chief. This is the second time we’ve seen him getting more than slightly drunk at a bar without his wife. Also, I was confused by his disdain for the Saggitarions as religious freaks because…isn’t he Geminese? Aren’t they like the fundamentalists of the fleet? I’ve concluded that if the Geminese are the Born-Again Fundamentalists, then the Saggitarions are the Gnostic Pagans, which I actually think is a cool comparison. I quite liked the throwaway line that they don’t believe in medicine because both the body and the mind are illusions. Very questioning of reality, very reminiscent of reality-as-prison. Very Gnostic, from my limited understanding of that term.
One good upshot of the sudden attack of racism was seeing Dee’s reaction. Oh, boy that was painful. Put up a front, bitch about them so they don’t bitch about you, and it’s probably not all even faked. I’m not a member of any minority that’s as marginalized and attacked as the Saggitarions, and I’m so grateful for that. Though I do sympathise with Dee’s attitude in a small way, being an American, with no accent, raised in the UK. I hear a lot of shit spoken about the US, and most of it is hypocritical BS, to be honest. But the choice I get is, a) shut up and listen to it and don’t make a fuss, b) point out the hypocrisy and look like I’m defending something I’m probably madder about than they are, c) join in so they think I’m one of the “good ones” or d) try to mollify them and apologise (when it’s not my fault).
So yeah, I get where Dee is coming from a little. I even get the anger. Why should everyone else get to be madder than you when it’s your people who are behaving in a way you believe to be self-destructive, or who are being manipulated and lied to, abandoning principles you believe in.
What I’m not sure about is why Dee suddenly has this hate-on for Cottle. I mean, choosing to visit a different Doctor (who is also in charge of the meds for the disease you have – though…how did she catch it?), that I can understand. But protesting that she doesn’t want to see Cottle when she’s so sick she can barely stand, um, why?
Another thing this episode had the potential to do marvelously was the politics of the racist. Why these people believe the things they do. Not just in terms of medical professionals like Cottle nursing anger because these traditions mean they have to watch patients die, but people like Athena, desperate to find someone other than them to be a target. People like Adama who just don’t have the time because they have an overcrowded, overworked Battlestar to deal with, and who end up racist by omission.
My Crazy Love For Tigh has been somewhat restored by this episode. I still don’t believe he’s fit for duty, and it was nice to see his unprofessional, dangerous, loyal-only-to-his-own streak rear its beautiful head. Plus Helo decked him, which was not as awesome as when Roslin slapped him, but I’ll take what I can get.
I actually thought that Helo did a decent job of carrying the episode. I was not as put-off by his way of acting “anger/distress” which usually involves making a face like something smells really bad, as I usually am. (And I’m being unkind. I’ve always enjoyed watching Helo and think that Tahmoh Pennikett is a decent actor.)
It was nice, yet surreal, to see Hera with her actual parents. I wonder if being passed between three different families before the age of two will affect her. I honestly wouldn’t have minded seeing more of their interactions as a family simply because they only JUST got her back (what WAS wrong with her on the Basestar?) Who do they leave her with when they’re both at work? Is there a crèche? Would they honestly feel comfortable leaving their half-cylon kid with strangers?
It was nice to see Helo asserting his identity separate to Athena. Though I’m glad that they didn’t include the cut scene at the end (was there a longer version of that online?). There could be no good outcome to that conversation, so while I respect Helo’s desire to confess, I’m not sure how they could have resolved it without the cop out of fading to black or without making me relive my confusion all over again. You know, respecting Helo wanting to be a stand-up guy, but thinking, really dude, do you have any idea of the consequences of your actions? Actually that’s one of the reasons I’m glad Helo WAS such a stand up freight-train of moral authority in this episode. After the stunt he pulled killing those Cylons, he sort of has to be to maintain any kind of integrity.
IMAGINARY GAIUS IS BACK! I was so glad to see him! And how intriguing his words to Caprica (oh Tricia Helfer, I love your acting). She wants to be a human while Baltar wants to be a cylon. Oh, irony! Also, Roslin, watching her make out with her imaginary boyfriend through tinted glass…totally voyeuristic and slightly creepy! The most intriguing revelation of the scene though – they’re capturing her imaginary conversations. Now that has some connotations.
I agree with Roslin about Zarek. If he really is scared and about what he’s advocating. I can’t understand how this fits into his character. He’s always been about the revolution. He’s always been about destroying the status quo and starting again. I find the idea that he’s suddenly changed his mind, become less naïve, and more willing to control the people “for their own good” to be…disappointing. I liked him as extremely principled. I can’t work out how this idea fits into any of his principles. Even the Circle fit into his idea of a new order rising from the ashes. That was the point – he was acting violently behind the scenes to make it possible (which I suppose does betray some controlling mass-decision making tendencies). If anything, Zarek is Fight Club. Which is a great and often misunderstood book. It’s not about asserting your identity with violence – it’s about destroying yourself – and everything else, because you’re trapped by history, boxed into this nonsensical society we’ve created which puts all the wrong things first (or perhaps I misunderstand it because I’m not an angry young man…) The point is, Zarek wants to destroy the past and start fresh. I’ve said before (I think) that Zarek has all these ideas about social reform and completely, and TOTALLY, ignores the existence of the Cylon. It really is as if he wants to constantly abandon anything that happened in the past and continue on from this instant forwards. So I suppose, perhaps, he’s worried that dragging up the treason during New Caprica and the attacks (what he was trying to avoid by getting rid of the worst offenders via the Circle) will only further trap the fleet in their patterns of fear and spite and anger and prevent any kind of forward movement as they fixate on the past?
I’m still not sure I’m not fanwanking this, though.
In summary, this really could have been a phenomenal episode if it had had slightly more build-up regarding the racial tensions re: the Saggitarions earlier in the season, and if it had had an ending that lived up to the intriguing and subtle racial commentary that existed in the first thirty-five minutes of the show. Unfortunately, it didn’t. It had a two-dimensional, easy-out ending, and nothing Dr Robert shouted would have come off as anything other than the ravings of a mad-man. If it had been a story of an insane, murderous Doctor, the ending would have been fine. But it wasn’t. It was a story about racism, and slapping on the insane, murderous Doctor ending undercut a lot of the power that might otherwise have existed in the intelligent and layered setup.
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no subject
Date: 2007-02-14 05:49 pm (UTC)The problem is they had too damn much they wanted to do in this episode. Let's put aside Helo's arc for a moment, if we just look at the main plot ww had the story of the oppressed Sagittarons (which was suppose to be a big lead in to an arc involving Baltar's trial which has now been completely cut) and a doctor deciding to play god. It's the Saggittaron storyline that screws things up. They could have delved more into Helo's psychology and the consequences of his actions in AMoS if they had just made his investigation of Roberts be about murder. There must be quite a few sick and elderly among the fleet. Why not have the disease be more like the flu and as this susceptible group has more and more sick people, Roberts decides they are not worth the fleets resources. I recall in the mini that the old woman had her number picked to get aboard the raptor and I thought, 'They are taking her instead of one of the parents of the children?' Right or wrong, most of us if given the choice between a young person with their life ahead of them or an elderly person sho has had a life, we would pick the former.
Still, it felt a little jarring – not in a "I’m shocked these people could be racist!" way, but in a "where did THIS come from," way.
I felt this way too. We've had plenty of hints and examples of religious, cultural, and class differences that exist among the fleet. But there is a big difference between 'They aren't as good as me' to 'Oh, they're scum and it's OK if they are killed.'
This is the second time we’ve seen him getting more than slightly drunk at a bar without his wife.
Actually, Cally was in the bar. She didn't have a speaking role, but when the camera panned I saw her. Still, I worry about the drinking and in the preview for next weeks ep he's talking to her about their "rough patch".
Something I forgot to mention in my post, Dee was in the bar with Lee. Remember last week (um, two weeks ago) when Lee made that point about inviting her to the bar with him, but she had made it clear it wasn't her thing? It seems she's trying to meet him half way now and I appreciated seeing that from her. Also, he clearly was not drunk (great shot by him!) while both Tyrol and Kara were. Hmmmmm...
What I’m not sure about is why Dee suddenly has this hate-on for Cottle.
How many times has he saved her husband and father-in-laws life? You'd think she'd love him! She made that comment about how bad he was with needles and it was like he was stabbing you with the thing. I figured she was just hoping Roberts had better aim and she'd have less pain. Ron in the podcast mentioned that is was a choice by her to sort of support her people by going to 'their' doctor. Also, Hot Dog was originally suppose to be the person Helo rescues so maybe things got a little muddy in rewrites when they switched characters?
no subject
Date: 2007-02-15 06:39 pm (UTC)Though I maintain that they really could have made some excellent commets on racism here, but like you say, it felt shoehorned in. There's a big difference between the levels of bigotry we've previously seen (not really all that much) and what was presented here, even under the influence of alcohol.
Thanks for pointing out Cally was there, I did miss that, but I still stick by my comment, especially in light of upcoming episodes.
Also interesting point about Dee being at the bar. Even more interesting point about her going to Dr Robert to show solidarity with her people. I can understand her going to Dr Robert for the simple reason he might have a better "needle-aim", but that's a mild preference and a long way from her desperation to stay away from Cottle later.
I think Dee's decision to go to Dr Robert to show the Saggitarons it was safe could have been played very powerfully - you know, even though she's angry at their attitudes and dismissal of her life choices, she still wants to show some solidarity and help if she can. It would have been interesting to see her refusal to see Cottle because she thought it would put even more Saggitarons off seeing Robert and cause even more deaths. That would have been interesting. CURSE YOU, EPISODE, FOR ALL YOUR MISSED CHANCES!
Just watched it...
Date: 2007-02-16 05:57 pm (UTC)Yeah, wtf? I wondered if it was a reference to some other racism-themed text, but I couldn't think of anything.
>So perhaps we never really saw Saggitarion racism among the Galactica crew because they weren’t confronted by the "unwashed masses" before. They just had to deal with “good” Saggitarions like Dee who’d seen the light…
This actually makes a lot of sense. Still, they didn't really handle that very well.
>Also, I was confused by his disdain for the Saggitarions as religious freaks because…isn’t he Geminese? Aren’t they like the fundamentalists of the fleet?
Since when do fundamentalists accept fundamentalists of a different faith? Also, as I understood it, Tyrol is an atheist raised in a very religious family. Those are often the most fanatically anti-religious people.
>such a stand up freight-train of moral authority
To quote Sam Tyler: That's a *very* mixed metaphor. ;-)
>IMAGINARY GAIUS IS BACK!
You know... someone needs to make a vid about Harvey, imaginary!Gaius and Six.
I'm afraid I have nothing very intelligent to say about the ep, really. I'm struck again by how different our ways of dealing with TV are. My reaction to LoM 2.01/2.02 was mostly squee. *g*
Re: Just watched it...
Date: 2007-02-16 10:49 pm (UTC)I had it explained to me. It's The Woman, who's name is King. The mother of the dead boy who kept trying to clue in Helo.
Since when do fundamentalists accept fundamentalists of a different faith?
Good point, though I wasn't so much surprised he'd dislike them on a religious level so much a surprised he'd attack them specifically as religious fanatics as if the religion part of it's bad. Basically, it shouldn't surpise me, but it always does when people attack others in a way that's totally hypocritical and vulnerable to being instantly turned back around on them. I agree that he at least wants to be atheist, but his request for religious counselling at the end of season two and his reluctant awe at the temple strike me as his upbringing having more of an effect than he'd like to admit.
To quote Sam Tyler: That's a *very* mixed metaphor. ;-)
Yes. Yes it is. Watch as I count my chickens before I have them in the bush.
I'm afraid I have nothing very intelligent to say about the ep, really. I'm struck again by how different our ways of dealing with TV are. My reaction to LoM 2.01/2.02 was mostly squee. *g*
There are things I purely squee about. I think a lot of my version of squeeing is to dissect - to be awed by layers and overexplain exactly why I found something incredibly moving. Or, if I didn't like it so much, to work out why. Which, yeah. Maybe just a different response, maybe just reflexes from my english literature classes I've never managed to get rid of. ;)
Regarding LoM - is 2.02 out yet?! I thought it was just one episode, or did they show two and did I miss one?! I liked it mostly. Kev liked it too, though he thought it would be better if they just stuck to being police officers in the seventies and left out all the mystery junk. I have decided to believe that he was introducing the villain into is current reality because he was close enough to consciousness to know he was torturing him in 2007. I like to believe that the explanation that the villain was suddenly a mental health patient was just a way for Sam's mind to justify what happened and integrate it into his 1973 reality.
I'm not sure what to make of the Hyde phone call. We'll see...
Re: Just watched it...
Date: 2007-02-16 11:00 pm (UTC)Yes, I *know*. I *got* that. But it's such a frelling weird title anyhow! It just... arrgh.
>Yes. Yes it is. Watch as I count my chickens before I have them in the bush.
Eeek! I told you *not* to marry the zombie chicken!
>Regarding LoM - is 2.02 out yet?! I thought it was just one episode, or did they show two and did I miss one?!
They have this weird arrangement by which they show ep 1 on BBC1 and then immediately follow it with ep 2 on BBC4; the next week it's going to be ep 2 on BBC1 and ep3 on BBC4. Yes, I know, weird. It doesn't make any sense to me, either. *g*
>I'm not sure what to make of the Hyde phone call. We'll see...
Yeah. The forum's going mad, I tell you...
Re: Just watched it...
Date: 2007-02-18 12:54 pm (UTC)Then you're smarter than me...
Eeek! I told you *not* to marry the zombie chicken!
You did? ...I thought you were just telling me about what happened when you tried it. And, you know, my zombie chicken is much more of a gentleman. He hasn't tried to eat me OR the neighbours yet!
They have this weird arrangement by which they show ep 1 on BBC1 and then immediately follow it with ep 2 on BBC4; the next week it's going to be ep 2 on BBC1 and ep3 on BBC4. Yes, I know, weird. It doesn't make any sense to me, either. *g*
Actually that does make sense and it in keeping the the current UK tradition of programming. Basically BBC4 is a channel you can only get if you've signed up to digital. Non-BBC channels used to use this ploy as a way to try and encourag people to get digital. Now the government-aligned BBC seems to be following suit, (the BBC channels on digital are still free, but you have to be wired for digital to get it at all), probably because the government wants to phase out analogue TV and replace it ENTIRELY with digital in the next few years.
Anyway, I got hold of the episode, and it was pretty fun. I move we make Gene keep his promise not to let Harry Woolf die penniless and alone by installing him in Hunt & Adama' Home for Aging Orphans as a kind of blackmailing, manipulative grandpa figure.
Starbuck (6) loves him, Kat (5 and a half) (who secretly wants to be like Starbuck but sooo much better) thinks there are lines you don't cross when causing mayhem and Granpa Woolf's crossed 'em all - she's having a hard time dealing with her (secret) idol Starbuck being such an ass about it. Athena (14) would be totally indifferent if Granpa didn't keep staring at her tits (although at least that's a sign the padding's working). Lee (11) is moping because he doesn't see why he has to accept yet MORE fake family members into his home because that's just one more person for his dad to love more than him. Plus, Granpa Woof tried to shoot Daddy Gene and the last time someone shot one of his Daddies, well, Boomer got shipped off to get fostered by that creepy cult where everone dresses the same... Sam (4) can't understand why Granpa keeps stealing all his sweets but keeps going to sit on Granpa's lap anyway because he's his Granpa and surely someday he'll stop disappointing him, right? Chris (2) is currently following Starbuck around everywhere, terribly impressionable, and getting the blame for all the chaos Starbuck is causing at Granpa Woolf's direction. Adama just treats him as a replacement for Tigh, so it's all good.
...I've overthought this, haven't I?
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Date: 2007-02-17 07:53 am (UTC)Also, head!Baltar was such a joy to see, mirroring head!Six in this creepy, fan-girl-worthy way. The fact that Tory and Roslin were watching without Six knowing... I was squealing in my head (gosh, subtext and femslash!). Interesting, also, how Cylons interact and that scene with Athena and Six entertained me.
I'm concerned where the writing is going on this show; that, and the directing. There were so many issues that could have been handled gracefully but that just didn't happen. Zarek's sudden shift was one of those.
*sigh* oh, my Battlestar! I'm hoping the next episode redeems this one.
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Date: 2007-02-18 01:21 pm (UTC)I enjoyed your post, though I think I'll have to read through it again more slowly to understand it in its entirety (sometimes I feel dumb...) But I doubt I'll be able to do that before the next episode airs and I didn't want to leave your comment unanswered.
You tackle a very valid aspect of the episode in the validity of the Saggitaron belief structure. I've seen them compared to Chrstian Scientists but I think that comparison is a poor one. They definitely strike me as adherents to a much more ancient religion that the Geminese or mainstream Colonial society, perhaps even one that pre-existed the first exodus. The point is, the discussion of the validity of ancient beliefs is one worth having. Your post made me think about this issue, at least in part, because I don't believe that ancient medicine is as good as modern technology; while I'm sure that some ancient cures were much simpler and very effective, in general, I think people enjoy better health now and fewer die. That can be difficult to reconcile with my belief that respect for traditions is of paramount importance. It's easy to see how that can be an easy path towards bigotry.
Because, at a base level, I actually think the Saggitarons are wrong and that prayer won't cure them. And how can I truly respect their decisions if I think they're terrible ones that will lead to preventable deaths? I can act like I respect them - which is better than nothing - but deep down, do I really?
All of which is a) getting terribly existential and b) leads back, in a roundabout way, to other ways this episode could have organically shown increasing anger at the Saggitarons, especially from a physician being forced to watch them die.
It's ironic that this is one of the most thought-provoking topics I've had come up in relationship to BSG in quite a while, especially in terms of making me scrutinise my own beliefs, when I don't think the episode was that well done. I have to wonder if it was better done that I give it credit for because it's spawning these topic, but I really, really don't want to give it that credit.
fact that Tory and Roslin were watching without Six knowing... I was squealing in my head (gosh, subtext and femslash!).
Yes. That was very, very gay. Also, to comment briefly on something in the post you linked to: I wish her nickname was Maggie not Marge, but at least when Racetrack was talking about getting laid and "breaking in a nugget" (this was in the last episode, right?) she didn't specify the gender, right? :p
I'm concerned where the writing is going on this show; that, and the directing. There were so many issues that could have been handled gracefully but that just didn't happen.
There were moments I felt this way during the first half of 2.5, and that self-corrected. I'm adopting a wait-and-see policy.
*sigh* oh, my Battlestar! I'm hoping the next episode redeems this one.
Me too. :)
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Date: 2007-02-19 06:08 pm (UTC)First of all, I have been disappointed with the cheap tactics the writers have been using lately to get through an episode. The mid-season premiere in particular caught me off guard because it included so m any intriguing plot points and more importantly - character interactions, but they all seemed to be glossed over far too quickly, opting instead to focus on the shiny. I'm all for the shiny, but not when there could have been some serious drama between Athena and Boomer, to name just one moment of potential.
Hera: Athena said her belly was hard and suggested it was ... can't remember, but a medical term regarding her intestines. Probably comes down to constipation and was likely not something of major concern once she was reviewed by a proper doctor (speaking of... was Dr. Robert then the only person who had the vaccine in the last episode? Why would Dr. Cottle not have it on hand as well just in case. At least for the crew. I get that it works for plot to have Athena go to Robert, but as a parent, you don't hand your child off from doctor to doctor without good reason.
Ultimately, I'd like to see more about Hera, what with her being so important that Roslin would lie about her and put such onus on Anders to get her to safety off of New Caprica. Again, this falls into my "poor writing" category. Too much going on, but not enough going on within each element. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume she is being securely monitored each day by someone Helo and Athena trust, probably within a daycare centre though. Cally and Tyrol's baby must be kept somewhere too.
Helo: I never thought much of him until the past little while where he's shown himself to be a true moral character who fights hard for what he believes in. He fights with his heart and perhaps is too trusting, but thus far, he hasn't been wrong with where he places his trust and loyalty.
Racism: I'm Jamaican. When racism comes up on a show, there's always a *cringe* moment of 'why do they feel the need to have a racial episode? Is it mandatory?' I liked though that this was not merely about skin colour, but also delved into religious fundamentalism (I'd also been reading up on the Jehovah's Witness vs blood transfusion thing for another discussion re: Vancouver Sextuplets). My only squick was the fact that Dee, a racial minority, was the one involved. I agree with you that putting the blame on the Mad Doctor was poor and too easy. I'm glad they dared to have even Adama be shown as a racist, but I thought that needed to be stronger, with less focus on the mad doctor. Also agree though that it was too out of the blue overall.
Zarek: I'm not quite understanding the hurricane he's fearing? I suppose there is still some anger over the Cylon-siding humans, but I don't see how a civil war would ensue by putting Gaius on trial. Would the anger mainly be based around the fact that Gaius is being burned, but the others are pardoned? I hadn't thought of that initially, but I suppose it could happen -- though I still don't see it being as deadly as Zarek predicts. Moreover, he's incited such things before.. now he's found religion or something? Personally, I'm all for Roslin naming herself Dictator of the New World and just tossing Gaius out the airlock quietly.
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Date: 2007-02-19 09:33 pm (UTC)I'm not really sure what to suggest re: BSG discussion except that
I'm all for the shiny, but not when there could have been some serious drama between Athena and Boomer, to name just one moment of potential.
I'm torn here, because truthfully, as painful as it is to admit, I don't think Grace Park is quite enough of an actress to pull that off. She has moments, but...she also has other kinds of moments, you know? Though I do have some quite lengthy thoughts on their brief encounter in the episode reaction post for that episode which is somewhere further down my journal.
Ultimately, I'd like to see more about Hera, Again, this falls into my "poor writing" category. Too much going on, but not enough going on within each element.
Ultimately, I'd like to see more of her too, and I certainly agree that sometimes they have so much going on they cut stuff and...it's a waste. I think perhaps they're holding back on Hera because people are so wary about babies on TV; also there are so many restrictions regarding filming with them. I give them a break on the vaccine thing because a) perhaps if they don't have much vaccine at all and there was a time-sensitive epidemic going on - and they were all on the same ship anyway - they'd store it with the (at the time trusted) doctor in most need. Also, b) I tend to be more forgiving on decisions that make story-sense if not literal-sense as long as it doesn't stretch credibility too far (a matter of personal opinion). So I'm willing to go with the decision because I don't find it totally outlandish and it racks up the drama.
Helo: I never thought much of him until the past little while where he's shown himself to be a true moral character who fights hard for what he believes in.
I have a great deal of respect for Helo, the beautiful plugger who just keeps plugging and trying. Helo is the most heroic character on the show and I have recently begun to appreciate just how rare true heroes are. Heroes in the traditional sense of the word - the sense of the word that usually creates Mary Sues or irritating characters who get everything right and never know true internal conflict, so I'm irritated when they angst - a hero like that, that's somehow wonderful to see, and who you don't resent; who you root for. It's not something I actively look for; not a kink of mine. But I'm growing to appreciate them and I think Helo might be one. That said, he was a right ass in A Measure of Salvation, but I think I went into detail about that in my ep reaction post so I won't repeat it here cos this comment's going to be waaay long anyway!
So long, in fact, I'm going to use two comments cos I've overshot the character limit.
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Date: 2007-02-20 01:17 pm (UTC)The writing: CityTV airs S2 during the week and I decided to watch it yesterday. Can't remember the ep title, but it was the one with the Cylon logic bomb where Adama calls on Sharon for help and the crew builds the Blackbird. I'm all for such filler episodes, but comparing this to the ones going on now? HUGE difference. I tuned in when Cottle silently hands Roslin her medical chart and her reaction was priceless. I particularly loved when she throws the folder onto the table as if trying to get it as far away from her as possible will make the cancer untrue.
Certainly this comes down to MM being a wonderful actress, but writing and direction also play a role to make the scene perfect. That mesh, I feel, has been missing since the Eye of Jupiter business, if not earlier. There have been so many scenes that could have been so powerful but they got lost/looked awkward. Like the scene where Helo confronts Roslin about Hera and *flip to fullscreen shot of the room* Adama puts out an arm to stop him. We all know how powerful Adama's silence is, and if played right, we should have been awed by this as usual, but instead, I just found myself trying to figure out how many apples tall Adama was.
Maybe you're right that GP isn't strong enough to have pulled off the reunion scene, but as writers/directors, they should have tried. That was too strong a plot point to just gloss over.
Also, the scene where Apollo in his Viper and Kara in the Blackbird hover nose to nose was the most romantic moment between these two ever. 2 seconds. Meanwhile all that is going on now just makes me want to scratch out my eyes when they appear on screen. But that's another story ;)
Hera:
I don't necessarily want to see her all the time. I'd just like to hear mention of her a bit more I guess. Just to know that she hasn't been forgotten. You're right about the vaccine though. That's just my parent instincts kicking in and saying "Bad momma! You don't just run to any old doctor without research and reassurance!"
Helo:
I agree that he is a hero in a truer sense of the word. One who isn't trying to be a Hero. He's just doing what he believes is right. I don't think he's doing it for the greater good, either. I don't think he went after Dr. Robert for the sake of Mrs. King. He's just been shown to have a moral centre and stopping him was the right thing to do. When it comes to Hera and Athena, there he is selfishly thinking about the people he loves, but that's completely acceptable too. Also, I'm glad he called Sharon on the whole "I have to prove myself every day" thing. Certainly her life is tough as a Cylon, and I've come to respect the character for the decisions and sacrifices she's made. But she obviously has not appreciated what it's meant to Helo to stand by her. What he said about being defined as the guy who married the Cylon -- I liked this episode mainly because it defined him as Helo the Hero, if you will, rather than the Cylon lover.
As for Tigh.
Would like to see more of him. I don't think he's ever been fit for duty, before or after. But he got many cuddles from me after he killed his wife. Now, he's getting lost in the shuffle.
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Date: 2007-02-22 06:02 pm (UTC)You really should watch the mini series and first thirteen episodes, I think that's probably the series' best run. Apollo especially is an almost entirely different character. He has a strong relationship with the President and has morals and principles and convictions that he stuck to unwaveringly. Then in the second half of season two, he became whiny, confused and all about Kara and the man-angst.
As for Tigh.
Would like to see more of him. I don't think he's ever been fit for duty, before or after. But he got many cuddles from me after he killed his wife. Now, he's getting lost in the shuffle.
Tigh had the same thing happen to him in the second half of season two. And to be honest, he was NEVER as awesome as his total losing of it at the beginning of season three. I hate his getting better - he was so much better as a human disaster.
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Date: 2007-02-19 09:36 pm (UTC)Good point. I think the truth is that the showrunners often feel it is mandatory; if you're trying to write a "gritty" show you need to address it to show how "gritty" you are; if it's a cheesier show, it's an easy way to pretend to deepness. Whether they should feel it's mandatory, or if it's often just a cheap way to look "progressive" is another issue...
I liked though that this was not merely about skin colour, but also delved into religious fundamentalism
That's really interesting to hear; I've read one or two others commenting that the fact that they made it a non-skin-colour issue and instead made it about "poor white people" was white-person-middle-class-guilt on the part of the writers, you know, wriggling to get out of commenting on reality. I figure if your reading of the situation is, "now they've replaced even the oppressed minority with yet more white people," then that's a valid criticism. Further than that...well, my reading of the situation was closer to yours, I think, finding the religious fundamentalism aspect more interesting (as noted above) and therefore being grateful that the racial makeup was more diverse than, say, the religious Geminese who all seem to be black except for Tyrol.
My only squick was the fact that Dee, a racial minority, was the one involved.
Again, interesting and not something I'd thought of. You may be interested to know that they originally planned to have Dee's role in this episode fulfilled by Hotdog (who's hispanic and therefore also a racial minority), but decided he wasn't really important enough a character for the audience to be worried for and so he was replaced by Dee - the only more important character who's specifically been said to come from Saggitarion (dating back to the very first episode). So the decision to utilise Dee was primarily based on her importance to the audience rather than any racial issue, I think. Though that's not necessarily going to have any impact on the net effect.
I'm glad they dared to have even Adama be shown as a racist, but I thought that needed to be stronger, with less focus on the mad doctor.
I think that the way they showed Adama as racist was perfect, actually - racist through negligence and exhaustion and a willful desire not to see and not to admit it (which is, incidentally, entirely in keeping with his character - his willful ignorance of his son Zak's character and aptitude as a pilot, his home life and marriage; even his let-it-slide attitude towards Tigh and towards his relationship with his crew; there's a lot about Adama that's self-deception). So yeah, I think they dealt with Adama's racism with subtlety and intelligence. You say it needed to be stronger with less focus on the mad doctor. I think if they'd removed the focus from the mad doctor, the true strength of Adama's portrayal would have shone through. It's a cowardly act of sleight-of-hand - the acts of the crew seem so much more insignificant when compared to the crazy doc, he makes you not notice the truth. And at the end, everyone apologises and hides behind the spectre of Dr Robert so their actions aren't really brought into view.
that Gaius is being burned, but the others are pardoned?
Wow, that's definitely interesting. But I can't imagine anyone wanting to argue FOR the pardoning of someone like Baltar except maybe others who've already been pardoned; and would they really want to draw attention to themselves? Eh...I'm not seeing it. But I'm confused by Zarek's attitude. As I said above, usually he's all about the chaos.
Thanks again for the comment - always good to get some more discussion! I think "deep" discussion IS my squee. I didn't think so much of this episode, but even episodes I think are damn near perfect end up causing me to write stuff like this - about WHY I love it so much, and WHY I think it works. I don't tend to respond with something as simple as, "ZOMG BSG IS LUV!!!11!1!!" Though there's always a first time for everything. We'll see... ;)
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Date: 2007-02-20 01:30 pm (UTC)Yes it is a valid criticism, but of course, were it a visible minority, we'd have to deal with that criticism too. Impossible to win. So as far as this choice goes, I have no complaints. I'm not the type to cry racism every moment possible, though as a black person, I do notice things (like when the Cylons made a "we" decision that D'Anna defied... but the black Cylon was not there amongst the "we") but I try to step back and not let that *ahem* colour my judgement completely.
As for the white-person-middle-class-guilt ... well.. Thanks, white people, but I don't need you standing up for me out of guilt. I don't appreciate tokens. But that's another story ;)
So the decision to utilise Dee was primarily based on her importance to the audience rather than any racial issue, I think.
Yes I agree. I assumed that she was previously revealed to be a Saggitarion. In this case, my squick fell into the "things" that I notice, but I moved passed it.
Adama's racism: Yes you're right. He was true to character, but it was lost because of the mad doctor. We all know Adama has a lovely sliding scale when it comes to justice etc and what is right. Most noteably when he faced off against Admiral Kane.
Zarek: I'm confused by his attitude and by the prediction. I'm still not seeing how it will come to pass. I assume though, that this will be a major plot point. However, with Six in captivity and HarveyGaius telling her to cooperate, it stands to reason that the evidence against him would be pretty strong. But that would be too easy ;)
Deep discussion is definitely my squee. I wish Simon was caught up on these episodes because he and I could go on for many a page about such things. You have no idea how deeply we delved into Pitch Black, of all things! Not that I don't have my OMG**** moments. Lately, most of those have come from Heroes. But once I get that out of my system, I can get into the deep. Cheers!
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Date: 2007-02-22 06:09 pm (UTC)Yes, that was my initial reaction too. So I figured at least they went with internal consistancy and didn't create a minority based on visual difference.
As for the white-person-middle-class-guilt ... well.. Thanks, white people, but I don't need you standing up for me out of guilt. I don't appreciate tokens. But that's another story ;)
Guilt's a tricky one. By its nature it's usually sincere, but it has a slippery tendency to make it all about the guilty party, yet again.
Adama's racism: Yes you're right. He was true to character, but it was lost because of the mad doctor. We all know Adama has a lovely sliding scale when it comes to justice etc and what is right. Most noteably when he faced off against Admiral Kane.
He also has a sliding scale when it comes to morals on a smaller scale; personal relationships and loyalties, and how far he'll go for people. It's...disturbing actually. I mean, I kind of like how it complicates his character, but it's an element I don't think many people pick up on.
Deep discussion is definitely my squee. I wish Simon was caught up on these episodes because he and I could go on for many a page about such things.
I'm only just getting to know Simon, but I can definitely see him having some interesting things to say about BSG.
Not that I don't have my OMG**** moments. Lately, most of those have come from Heroes.
Oh, me too, totally! Also, HEROES! ZOMG! I love that show! The ending! Simone! As my boyfriend (who doesn't usually watch it and therefore didn't have much of an idea what was going on) said: "Oh no. Mangst claims its first victim."
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Date: 2007-02-22 06:37 pm (UTC)I'm only just getting to know Simon, but I can definitely see him having some interesting things to say about BSG.
He's a keeper. I have to get on a mission to get him Heroes and BSG episodes.
"Oh no. Mangst claims its first victim."
*snicker* brilliant
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Date: 2007-02-22 07:26 pm (UTC)Aha. This has been bugging me, but I couldn't figure out why. I thought you were referencing something in the past that I had not seen, or had not paid that much attention to. You're refering to A Measure of Salvation?
If so, I'll still stand up for Helo here and say that his actions in killing them were completely moral and in tune with the character of integrity they've made him out to be. He basically euthanised them in order to prevent genocide. Euthanising a group of Cylons who are inches from death who have already been abandoned by their fellows for obvious reasons vs destroying an entire race? I think the lesser of two evils is pretty clear? I say his argument and subsequent actions were quite sound, especially when he was completely willing to pay the price for his actions.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-22 09:04 pm (UTC)The problem is, Helo argues that the cylons are a sentient race - this is something I agree with. He argues that it's a crime to commit genocide. Also correct. Where the arguement breaks down (to me) is that it's semantics and ideology over the harsh reality of death and extinction.
In A Measure of Salvation, they are offered a chance to fight back against an enemy who has commited genocide against them, who hunts them, who have devastated 20% of their numbers since their exodus began, and against whom they have never been able to find a defence or chance of long-term survival. Unfortunately, the option they have does not involve half-measures.
It's a horrible and a harsh situation to be put in, but in many ways, it literally was, commit genocide against your enemy, or tacitly sanction the continuing genocide of your own race.
While Helo prevented the humans from committing an attrocity, he failed to offer any practical alternative. In a very real way, every death human since that episode is a consequence of Helo's decision to make a moral choice for the entirety of his people - people who did not elect him to make that choice for them.
Roslin understands the horror of this, and the consequences, and when Adama won't take responsibility, she does, because the survival of humanity is all to her.
Helo acts in accordance with his own conscience, and in a theoretical sense, he's correct. And it would be nice if it were possible, in war, to act with honour, in accordance with conventions, when your enemy refuses to honour any of them (and lord knows I hope I'd try to honour them all). But he also put his own sense of honour ahead of the survival of his species.
And you know what? That's a valid idea. That you'd rather die a good person than taint your soul and survive. But it's not a choice I think it's okay to make for the masses without at least offering some sign that you know what you've just done. And no, I don't think his willingness to face the consequences "makes it better" (though it does continue to prove his heroism and honour) because there's nothing that can make that lost chance better; not for the deaths he shows no understanding of his culpability in. At least, he doesn't on screen.
So that's why I have...issues with his behaviour. I still think he's a total hero. But I'm a Roslin fangirl. I find the choice to do the wrong thing for the greater good fascinating and also heroic. And part of the complicated morality that I love about the show.
Helo's such a hero. But he affected tens of thousands with his choice and it caused many of the to die, and may cause the deaths of many more.
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Date: 2007-02-22 11:53 pm (UTC)To allow genocide, would be to justify every evil man is capable of committing. While I appreciate (read: I love you Roslin and want to have your babies!) Roslin's line about 'let them hate us, but at least they're alive,' and I appreciate her knowing what the decision meant, she did not have the right to destroy humanity's (shakey) moral centre any more than Helo did to save it just because she is the president. Just because she's been elected president does not give her leave to do *anything* she wants (until she finally proclaims her dictatorship with Adama as her bitch, er, second in command).
To have committed genocide would have destroyed humanity in the long run, IMO. Especially when we've already seen that there are Cylons quite willing and able to love and become a part of human society. (Note: This is where I really started to respect Athena. Time and again, she's proven her loyalty to humanity, but here, she was willing to make and accept the ultimate sacrifice).
Helo's thinking is always flawed because it is too heavily based on the emotional. But I think that does need to be taken into consideration when making a decision on such a grand scale. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing to the hurricane Zarek predicts if Gaius is brought to trial.
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Date: 2007-02-23 12:59 pm (UTC)I think the basic place our opinions diverge is “at what cost survival?” I find Roslin’s comment, “at least they’ll be alive to hate us,” extremely resonant and I’m not certain that that dark spot in history would destroy humanity. We've done some pretty dire things in our history, and yes, it's caused large elements of our society to be deeply, deeply screwed up, but (perhaps I'm being overly hopeful) we're slowly moving towards healing ourselves. I certainly don't think we're doomed or headed for destruction. The clearly self-defence-motivated ideas in AMoS are far more understandable to me than a lot of the horrors that have happened in our history.
I mean, I can’t think of a situation in reality where I would sanction genocide; it’s completely abhorrent. But that’s what I love about BSG – it puts me in a situation where I find myself supporting, or at least understanding the most disturbing of choices. Like election fraud. (Contextual note: my mother is American, I was born there, I’m a citizen and I have a vote; my dad is Welsh, I grew up there, speak the language and still live in the UK). As my put-upon friends will tell you, my absolute boiling rage at the theft of the most recent US election is…well it’s a thing to behold. When I found out Roslin was going to steal an election in season two, I was terrified; this woman is my idol and she’s doing this? And then, I saw the performances, understood what she believed was at stake, and I got it. I understood it. My moral scale slid and while I didn’t condone it, I didn’t condemn her either.
My problem with Helo and Adama’s arguments is that they don’t offer any viable alternatives beyond accepting death with some abstract idea of honour intact. Like I said, I think this is where our opinions are basically different. Yeah, there are some things I’d rather die than do, but in general, I’m pretty sold on survival. I’m pretty sold on the idea of trying to make sure others survive until they have the chance to decide for themselves it’s not worth it. Again - possible worldview differences.
I wanted a convincing argument from Adama or Helo. I wanted to be convinced it really would destroy humanity, as you say. But I didn’t get one. I got, “we’ll lose a piece of our soul,” and my response is, “what would I rather? Dead with an intact soul, or alive with a fractured one? When I don’t even know if such a thing as a soul exists, and neither do you Adama, because you’re an atheist.” (Which, again, personal worldview.)
I’ve seen this show do it before. It’s come up with wonderful arguments for the importance of sticking with democracy and honour even in the bleakest of situations when faced with death. From memory (so, paraphrased) an example from early season one, when Adama was more principled and less…hypocritical. Roslin wants Adama to use his marines as a peacekeeping police force during some water shortage riots. Adama thinks this is a terrible idea and instead of saying, “it’ll tear off a piece of a man’s soul,” he says: “The police exist to enforce the laws of the state. The military exists to protect the people from the enemies of the state. When the military become the police, the people tend to become the enemies of the state.”
And that’s just genius. And true, and shows how that decision would likely lead to a total breakdown of whatever civilization they currently have.
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Date: 2007-02-23 01:17 pm (UTC)Adama was probably, ultimately, quite relieved that Helo did this. I'd almost say that he's allowing Helo to act out the good part of his own conscience. Why didn't he take a firmer stand with Athena and Helo over rescuing Hera? Because he wanted her rescued. Why didn't he punish Helo for killing the Cylons? Because he wanted them dead.
Did Adama refer to the soul? I'd accept conscience and overall morality of humanity as the argument. I agree that it just doesn't seem that strong when you weight life vs morality. But I can't help but remember Bishop's line in Alien 3 (which I believe was actually only in the book), where Ripley offered to help him and he asked instead to be shut down because he'd "rather be an intact memory, than a desicated reality."
'sides... there'd be no more BSG to watch if he didn't kill them ;P
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Date: 2007-02-24 05:55 pm (UTC)Always a valid perspective. I think that's what I was trying to get at with my previous post - that this show will take me out of the here and now and allow me to experience a rather shocking twist of opinion.
Were I actually in that situation, I think I'd probably be Adama too - I'd want to get out of having to be the one to "pull the trigger". Which is probably why I love Roslin so much - she's so unflinching. I'm reminded of Cain's speech - "When the moment comes, do not flinch or there'll be more kids in body bags going out the airlock." Roslin and Cain are very similar, actually. It's just Cain's focused on destroying the Cylon at any cost, while Roslin's focused on the survival of humanity.
It's why I love early season three Tigh so much - it shows the cost of being the one to "pull the trigger".
Did Adama refer to the soul? I'd accept conscience and overall morality of humanity as the argument.
He did, unfortunately, use the word "soul". Which irked me more than anything else because like you, I can accept the general opinion but would have much preferred he express it i terms of conscience and morality as opposed to metaphysics. Since he's established as non-religious.
Ripley offered to help him and he asked instead to be shut down because he'd "rather be an intact memory, than a desicated reality."
I haven't seen Alien 3 (though my boy says it's the best of the films and terribly under-rated by most people), but that is a wonderful quote.
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Date: 2007-02-25 02:43 pm (UTC)It occurred to me the that the humans (other than Gaius now) still don't know how many other Cylon models in human form exist. To destroy a significant chunk of them would certainly hurt them, but it could likely also cause the others to act. Therefore Roslin's decision would also cause more human deaths. Such a decision required a lot more thought than what went into it from both sides -- but again we come down to the situation/survival factor: there was no time to take this up with the committee.
I haven't seen Alien 3 (though my boy says it's the best of the films and terribly under-rated by most people), but that is a wonderful quote.
Action movies that involve too much thought and/or philosphy are generally under-rated. On my list are Terminator (all three), Aliens (all 4) and Pitch Black. All have inspired a lot of thought and discussion about things like fate, survival and humanity (ok so most of the discussion is with Simon, but that totally counts as far as I'm concerned).
I normally avoid books based on movies, but I believe this one was written by a Star Wars author I'd read, and also was cheap. I also read the Terminator book. Neither were wonderful, but in the latter, there was an incredibly memorable scene where big pouty stoic John breaks down for just long enough to hug Reese before sending him on his mission. All the while knowing that he was sending his father to die so that he could be born.
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Date: 2007-02-26 10:51 pm (UTC)You mentioned you'd read at least one Star Wars book - well, I've read loads, which got me thinking and I think I've come up with a good counter-arguement to my own position from the Star Wars extended universe. Which you're probably not familiar with.
But I remember there's a situation where they're fighting a terrifying enemy species which is hell-bent on exterminating or enslaving the galaxy and the point is raised about whether or not one character - who was captured and tortured by them - hates them. He says no; there's nothing inherently evil about them. It's all upbringing and culture. Raise one in a different environment and it wouldn't be a xenophobic murderer. Surely if there's no inherent evil in them, a Jedi's goal, at least, should be expansion of their understanding and education rather than destruction. Which I think applies very well to the Cylon. Unfortunately, I don't have a practical way to apply that solution...
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Date: 2007-02-27 01:39 am (UTC)Which book was that? Truce at Bakkura has come to mind for some odd reason.
That Jedi thinking is what I would hope for, but it's obviously idealistic. Helo could argue that Athena is good, but ultimately, only he trusts her beyond a doubt.
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Date: 2007-02-27 12:22 pm (UTC)Ironically, I think Del Ray started doing much more interesting stuff with the franchise, and I've been doing some catching up lately (albeit frequently in the form of audio books, which I love and wish were available unabridged). Some people complain that it's moving further away from the good-conquers-all space-fantasy of the movies, but personally I prefer it to the Bantam era when the status quo at the end of a novel was almost always the same as at the beginning. They also do much longer plot arcs, like, 9 - 19 books spanning 3 - 5 years periods with various authors all working together on an extended overarching plot.
Anyway, I'm babbling way away from the topic.
Truce at Bakura I don't remember as being particularly stellar, though if you like the author Kathy Tyers did write one or two of the Del Ray books.
It's interesting to me that hearing Helo say that there could be more cylons like Athena just made me think, yeah, but do you wanna go looking through that haystack? Whereas the Star Wars example, when phrased differently - when focusing not on who might already be out there, but on the inherent qualities of the being - i.e. if they were raised differently would they be different? - it's suddenly a viewpoint I have more sympathy with.
Though it still doesn't change my basic opinion of what happened in that episode, or where my sympathies lie!
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Date: 2007-02-27 02:32 pm (UTC)but do you wanna go looking through that haystack?
Excuse me? Are you a Cylon? Oh. Excellent. Are you a nice Cylon?
(Sweet irony if he turned out to be the Cylon .. but I know that's not true)
if they were raised differently would they be different? - it's suddenly a viewpoint I have more sympathy with.
What made the Cylons turn on the humans? How were they raised to make them rebel?
Though it still doesn't change my basic opinion of what happened in that episode, or where my sympathies lie!
Heehee you're so Roslin biased :P
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Date: 2007-02-27 03:01 pm (UTC)I think I should adopt a similar attitude towards my life. I wonder if anyone would notice if a giant cardboard me in a wig showed up for work instead of the actual me...?
What made the Cylons turn on the humans? How were they raised to make them rebel?
Like slave-workers, perhaps?
Heehee you're so Roslin biased :P
Pfft! You say that as if it's a bad thing! When she declares herself Commandant and iron curtain descends, I know where I'll be! Happily occupying a minor ministry position, stifling dissent! FOR THE PARTY! :p
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