OH KAREN TRAVISS, NO.
Sep. 15th, 2008 07:21 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccatoriaI realise that not many people reading this know an awful lot about the Star Wars expanded universe, though you've probably all gathered by now that I'm a huge SWEU freak. For the uninitiated, this is me complaining about the unbelievably aggressive and unprofessional attitiude of SW author Karen Traviss, in both her fiction and her interaction with the fanbase.
I've had this issue for a while now, to the point that earlier this year I decided that I was no longer going to buy anything with her name on it because I'm just...fed up with her being rewarded for this behaviour.
It's also a tricky issue because there were, before I became active in online SWEU fandom (I was an independent fan of the novels since the age of fourteen but only started actively participating online a few years ago), and right after Traviss debuted her first novel, riots in fandom because of her and there were an awful lot of genuinely stupid, creepy and just plain scary fans who hated her for a variety of ridiculous reasons probably including both sexism and an inability to tell fiction from reality.
Unfortunately, this means that every criticism of the woman is met - by her supporters, and by her - with an assumption that you are some insane troll.
Basically she busted onto the scene with, pretty much everyone agrees, a really good book that was supposed to be a tie-in to the Republic Commando XBoX game. It was a character based action novel that deftly handled the issues of free will and human rights the clones were entitled to, discussed the moral responsibilities of an organisation such as the Jedi essentially agreeing to use a slave army, and filled out a lot of background on the Mandalorians - a fan-favourite warrior society since Boba Fett was first seen in Empire.
The book did so well, she got some short stories for Hyperspace magazine, and the book was commissioned as a four book series - the last of which is due to be released imminently. She was picked up as one of the three authors for the very high profile Jacen-Solo-Goes-Evil series that spanned the last two years. She writes incredibly quickly, turns in her work before her deadlines and has a fan following. She also wrote the Clone Wars animated movie tie-in novel and, I believe, is writing a few sequels, time-permitting.
And because a minority of batshit insane fans said some really over the line things, the woman now has a persecution complex the size of my apartment building, near as I can tell.
I mean, this is the woman who had her lawyer send a fan forum a letter about libel despite claiming publically that she was leaving for time-related issues. And no, this fan forum was not even the one where she was getting badly hammered.
So I started in active online fandom at a time when people were very careful what they said about her (hell, they still are). And I started wanting to give her a chance; wanting her to really be that persecuted woman who was battered by the hardcore weirdos because she was taking a chance and writing something new and interesting and challenging.
After two years of increasing disappointment with her, I've given up the fantasy. I just think she's nuts. YES, NUTS.
And I'll say that, because apparently she has no qualms about calling EU fans - and by implication me - nuts and questioning our mental faculties publically, and, seemingly, at the drop of a freaking hat.
I mean, I don't care who started it, it's insulting to just about everyone when you decide to use the word, "talifan."
It's neither clever nor appreciated when you insult your readership - the people who FINANCE YOUR LIFE - by wondering what mental disorder they have - OCD or Asperger's?
It's horrifically insulting when you explicitly compare the psychology of obsessive fans to that of suicide bombers providing appropriate links to websites about the psychology of terrorists.
And it's pretty much a surefire way to piss of everyone in fandom when you start down that whole "why are you so obsessed? You need a real life that benefits society instead of typing angry responses on the internet," road.
It's also irritating when I go to find evidentiary links to your LJ, Ms Traviss, to discover that at some point in the last month, you've deleted it. Though I may be able to find a website with screengrabs if anyone wants. Alas,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
karentraviss is no more.
The worst bit, though, is that she's an unprofessional author.
I don't want to admit that, or believe it. She's written one or two books I think are okay. One I even quite enjoyed, even if I disagreed with one of her major plot decisions.
But the reason she keeps getting accused of "hating Jedi" is because her stories, which she touts as complex, morally grey examinations of what happens when the "good guys" do horrific things, aren't that at all. Because I would like that.
No, her stories are just as two-dimensional as any tale of The Heroic Jedi Who Can Do No Wrong, just in inversion. The Heroic Mandalorian/Clone/Cloned Mandalorian Can Do No Wrong, and the Jedi are just exploitative foils.
This isn't me trying not to see the Jedi in a bad light, this is me wanting those stories to be told well.
I don't lie when I say that Traviss' Clone and Mando characters are the worst examples of Mary Sues I have ever seen in professionally published literature.
For my feelings on the way Traviss' bias shows up in the text, I'd direct you to this thread - I have the same username, and it's about a third to halfway down the page.
So it boils down to: I think she's a bad writer in a lot of ways.
And it has nothing at all to do with my inability to see the Jedi as anything other than do-no-wrong heroes.
But Traviss (and her supporters) respond to any and all criticism of her style and her themes with accusations of either being overly obsessive for caring so much, or being unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality well enough to handle the fact that 'your beloved heroes' might make mistakes.
It's a fucking juvenile response to a more complex piece of criticism, and ironically it's her repeated attitude toward this criticism that has made me go from "I think she's a bad writer," to "this woman is insulting me and I'm offended and angry and I think she's nuts."
For the record, I hate that I feel this way. I wish I could just shrug it off and move on. I mean...most days I do. To be honest, it's probably because I've been so busy and so quasi-away from SW fandom for so long that when someone linked me to her website's FAQ today, I was so...shocked at her attitude. I'd genuinely forgotten she was that obnoxious.
I suppose it comes down to the fact I have very little tolerance for being insulted by people who make their living off of me. (Or did. I no longer buy her work).
So anyway - here's what just...pushed me over the edge.
http://www.karentraviss.com/html/jedi.htm
She essentially seems to suggest that if you question her portrayal of Jedi, you're JUST LIKE THE NAZIS.
No really, she actually fucking says that. It's like...the universe's gift to Godwin's Law or something.
I'm sure you think you're a nice decent person who's kind to animals, recycles faithfully, and fills in tax returns honestly. Maybe you believe in God, too. But to me, you're someone who harbours a vile and degrading belief in the concept of Untermensch - the idea that some humans aren't human at all, and we can do as we like with them, for whatever arbitrary value we put on the words "real human." You're looking for ways to sift your kind of human from the humans who don't matter, and who can be consigned to the fate of animals. In fact, if you use the phrase "real humans" at all, my case is proven.
That belief in a league table of humans - and the casual acceptance of it by nice people who were kind to animals and filled in their tax forms on time - led to the enslavement and murder of millions.
It's slave-owner-think: it's Nazi-think. And yes, I bloody well hate it.
It's not about Jedi - who don't even exist. It's about you.
That's how it ends. Srsly. I couldn't make this shit up.
To be fair, the "you" in this section refers only to people who want the Jedi to be goodies who do no wrong all the time. But to also be fair she 1) says shit like, -
And "you" here means - if the cap fits, honey, then wear it.
and 2) says shit like, -
So if you get pretty het up about anyone suggesting the Jedi might have made a few immoral decisions - or anything else, come to that - chances are it relates to something you actually believe in for real. It wouldn't upset you otherwise. Would it?
and -
Because it's clear to me that you believe deep down in real life that some human lives are worth less than others, and so it's okay to end them. Whether you realise that or not.
So it's not like she's giving her readers any choice in their own nazi-like beliefs here. SHE KNOWS YOU. WHETHER YOU REALISE IT OR NOT, YOU THINK LIKE A NAZI!11!1!eleventy!!
And, in case you thought she'd mellowed recently:
Not being able to process the difference between reality and fiction, or grasp the limits and nature of perception in real life, is downright dangerous. It's more than an intellectual failing. It's a cognitive failure on a par with a baby not understanding that a hidden ball still exists even if Mum puts it in a box. Exccept babies learn and grow up.
From one of her responses to this post about two months ago. Again, this is in reference to fans, this time fans who aren't happy with the way the Clone Wars cartoon changed a bunch of the story from the PT movies. Oh, and in the rest of that comment she again goes on to explicitly compare fans who aren't happy with causally changing the continuity of SW midstory to religious "crazies".
For the first time in my life, I'm actually considering writing like, a protest letter to LucasFilm or something.
I at least want them to get her a better PR person. You know, someone to say, "Listen, sweetie, you may think you're 'edgy' but perhaps you ought to lay off a little on the insults and actually respond to the criticism instead of the perceived criticism?"
I just...I want to find her hilarious.
But at this point I'm just...angry.
I've had this issue for a while now, to the point that earlier this year I decided that I was no longer going to buy anything with her name on it because I'm just...fed up with her being rewarded for this behaviour.
It's also a tricky issue because there were, before I became active in online SWEU fandom (I was an independent fan of the novels since the age of fourteen but only started actively participating online a few years ago), and right after Traviss debuted her first novel, riots in fandom because of her and there were an awful lot of genuinely stupid, creepy and just plain scary fans who hated her for a variety of ridiculous reasons probably including both sexism and an inability to tell fiction from reality.
Unfortunately, this means that every criticism of the woman is met - by her supporters, and by her - with an assumption that you are some insane troll.
Basically she busted onto the scene with, pretty much everyone agrees, a really good book that was supposed to be a tie-in to the Republic Commando XBoX game. It was a character based action novel that deftly handled the issues of free will and human rights the clones were entitled to, discussed the moral responsibilities of an organisation such as the Jedi essentially agreeing to use a slave army, and filled out a lot of background on the Mandalorians - a fan-favourite warrior society since Boba Fett was first seen in Empire.
The book did so well, she got some short stories for Hyperspace magazine, and the book was commissioned as a four book series - the last of which is due to be released imminently. She was picked up as one of the three authors for the very high profile Jacen-Solo-Goes-Evil series that spanned the last two years. She writes incredibly quickly, turns in her work before her deadlines and has a fan following. She also wrote the Clone Wars animated movie tie-in novel and, I believe, is writing a few sequels, time-permitting.
And because a minority of batshit insane fans said some really over the line things, the woman now has a persecution complex the size of my apartment building, near as I can tell.
I mean, this is the woman who had her lawyer send a fan forum a letter about libel despite claiming publically that she was leaving for time-related issues. And no, this fan forum was not even the one where she was getting badly hammered.
So I started in active online fandom at a time when people were very careful what they said about her (hell, they still are). And I started wanting to give her a chance; wanting her to really be that persecuted woman who was battered by the hardcore weirdos because she was taking a chance and writing something new and interesting and challenging.
After two years of increasing disappointment with her, I've given up the fantasy. I just think she's nuts. YES, NUTS.
And I'll say that, because apparently she has no qualms about calling EU fans - and by implication me - nuts and questioning our mental faculties publically, and, seemingly, at the drop of a freaking hat.
I mean, I don't care who started it, it's insulting to just about everyone when you decide to use the word, "talifan."
It's neither clever nor appreciated when you insult your readership - the people who FINANCE YOUR LIFE - by wondering what mental disorder they have - OCD or Asperger's?
It's horrifically insulting when you explicitly compare the psychology of obsessive fans to that of suicide bombers providing appropriate links to websites about the psychology of terrorists.
And it's pretty much a surefire way to piss of everyone in fandom when you start down that whole "why are you so obsessed? You need a real life that benefits society instead of typing angry responses on the internet," road.
It's also irritating when I go to find evidentiary links to your LJ, Ms Traviss, to discover that at some point in the last month, you've deleted it. Though I may be able to find a website with screengrabs if anyone wants. Alas,
karentraviss is no more. The worst bit, though, is that she's an unprofessional author.
I don't want to admit that, or believe it. She's written one or two books I think are okay. One I even quite enjoyed, even if I disagreed with one of her major plot decisions.
But the reason she keeps getting accused of "hating Jedi" is because her stories, which she touts as complex, morally grey examinations of what happens when the "good guys" do horrific things, aren't that at all. Because I would like that.
No, her stories are just as two-dimensional as any tale of The Heroic Jedi Who Can Do No Wrong, just in inversion. The Heroic Mandalorian/Clone/Cloned Mandalorian Can Do No Wrong, and the Jedi are just exploitative foils.
This isn't me trying not to see the Jedi in a bad light, this is me wanting those stories to be told well.
I don't lie when I say that Traviss' Clone and Mando characters are the worst examples of Mary Sues I have ever seen in professionally published literature.
For my feelings on the way Traviss' bias shows up in the text, I'd direct you to this thread - I have the same username, and it's about a third to halfway down the page.
So it boils down to: I think she's a bad writer in a lot of ways.
And it has nothing at all to do with my inability to see the Jedi as anything other than do-no-wrong heroes.
But Traviss (and her supporters) respond to any and all criticism of her style and her themes with accusations of either being overly obsessive for caring so much, or being unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality well enough to handle the fact that 'your beloved heroes' might make mistakes.
It's a fucking juvenile response to a more complex piece of criticism, and ironically it's her repeated attitude toward this criticism that has made me go from "I think she's a bad writer," to "this woman is insulting me and I'm offended and angry and I think she's nuts."
For the record, I hate that I feel this way. I wish I could just shrug it off and move on. I mean...most days I do. To be honest, it's probably because I've been so busy and so quasi-away from SW fandom for so long that when someone linked me to her website's FAQ today, I was so...shocked at her attitude. I'd genuinely forgotten she was that obnoxious.
I suppose it comes down to the fact I have very little tolerance for being insulted by people who make their living off of me. (Or did. I no longer buy her work).
So anyway - here's what just...pushed me over the edge.
http://www.karentraviss.com/html/jedi.htm
She essentially seems to suggest that if you question her portrayal of Jedi, you're JUST LIKE THE NAZIS.
No really, she actually fucking says that. It's like...the universe's gift to Godwin's Law or something.
I'm sure you think you're a nice decent person who's kind to animals, recycles faithfully, and fills in tax returns honestly. Maybe you believe in God, too. But to me, you're someone who harbours a vile and degrading belief in the concept of Untermensch - the idea that some humans aren't human at all, and we can do as we like with them, for whatever arbitrary value we put on the words "real human." You're looking for ways to sift your kind of human from the humans who don't matter, and who can be consigned to the fate of animals. In fact, if you use the phrase "real humans" at all, my case is proven.
That belief in a league table of humans - and the casual acceptance of it by nice people who were kind to animals and filled in their tax forms on time - led to the enslavement and murder of millions.
It's slave-owner-think: it's Nazi-think. And yes, I bloody well hate it.
It's not about Jedi - who don't even exist. It's about you.
That's how it ends. Srsly. I couldn't make this shit up.
To be fair, the "you" in this section refers only to people who want the Jedi to be goodies who do no wrong all the time. But to also be fair she 1) says shit like, -
And "you" here means - if the cap fits, honey, then wear it.
and 2) says shit like, -
So if you get pretty het up about anyone suggesting the Jedi might have made a few immoral decisions - or anything else, come to that - chances are it relates to something you actually believe in for real. It wouldn't upset you otherwise. Would it?
and -
Because it's clear to me that you believe deep down in real life that some human lives are worth less than others, and so it's okay to end them. Whether you realise that or not.
So it's not like she's giving her readers any choice in their own nazi-like beliefs here. SHE KNOWS YOU. WHETHER YOU REALISE IT OR NOT, YOU THINK LIKE A NAZI!11!1!eleventy!!
And, in case you thought she'd mellowed recently:
Not being able to process the difference between reality and fiction, or grasp the limits and nature of perception in real life, is downright dangerous. It's more than an intellectual failing. It's a cognitive failure on a par with a baby not understanding that a hidden ball still exists even if Mum puts it in a box. Exccept babies learn and grow up.
From one of her responses to this post about two months ago. Again, this is in reference to fans, this time fans who aren't happy with the way the Clone Wars cartoon changed a bunch of the story from the PT movies. Oh, and in the rest of that comment she again goes on to explicitly compare fans who aren't happy with causally changing the continuity of SW midstory to religious "crazies".
For the first time in my life, I'm actually considering writing like, a protest letter to LucasFilm or something.
I at least want them to get her a better PR person. You know, someone to say, "Listen, sweetie, you may think you're 'edgy' but perhaps you ought to lay off a little on the insults and actually respond to the criticism instead of the perceived criticism?"
I just...I want to find her hilarious.
But at this point I'm just...angry.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-09-15 01:33 pm (UTC)Because seriously, she won't be getting paid for much longer if she carries on like that...and that would make her *unemployed*, but, you know, if the cap fits, honey, then wear it.
no subject
Date: 2008-09-16 08:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-09-15 10:57 pm (UTC)you know who my favorite EU character is? Tahiri. i looooooooooooove me some Tahiri!! lol.
no subject
Date: 2008-09-16 08:24 am (UTC)YAY TAHIRI! I liked her a lot in the NJO. I was really glad that her story didn't just die with Anakin.
Though to be honest, I think she's been a combination of under-used and poorly-used in the most recent books. Hopefully the next series will give her characters some interesting stuff to do. It's not like there's a plethora of others since they keep killing them...
no subject
Date: 2008-09-16 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-09-16 08:26 am (UTC)But there's no hurry. Whenever you get around to it, I'll still be here as an SW obsessed comics fangirl. :p
Anyway, it's really great to hear from you! Good luck on the home front! I hear your life will be yours again one day, but until then, I really appreciate the occasional LJ updates on your life and comments here even if I'm kind of bad about replying to my flist's posts lately... *guilt!*
no subject
Date: 2008-09-16 06:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-09-16 08:28 am (UTC)In more upbeat news at least she won't be involved in the next big SW series. It's probably just due to time commitments since she's writing a lot of books at the moment plus some Gears of War tie-ins, but at the same time, of the three authors from the last big series, she's the only one who's been "replaced" so...maybe LucasFilm are listening? I can only hope...
no subject
Date: 2008-09-18 12:38 am (UTC)It makes me wonder how great writers like Tolkein would of acted if he had been logging on each night to check what he "fans" had to say after reading the Hobbit.
Makes me hark back to the simpler times of Heir to the Empire and Jedi Apprentis. Fans were so grateful to any expansion of the star wars story. Now the amount of tales told seem a bit like over kill specially if they let a nut like this write em.
Lol Gears of Wars novel...... Thats gonna be deap! All the characters in the game have about as much depth as a mug of tea.
http://www.youtube.com/user/BifordusMaximus
All of the Force Unleashed Cut scences (least they are up at the moment) if you want em. God some of the plot choice are bad IMHO.
no subject
Date: 2008-10-25 04:32 am (UTC)She really is a horrible Mary Sue author. A friend of mine called her a Fan Fic author who made it big, and I think it fits. I wish LFL would find a way to de-canonize her work and re-do the Legacy series.
Her little letter really has pushed me over the edge in my hate of her. I'm tempted to talk to the LFL people I know about this as well. She's turning a lot of people away and really insulting the fanbase.
no subject
Date: 2008-10-25 03:13 pm (UTC)I wasn't at C4 (though OMG I GOT TO GO TO C-EUROPE and it was so amazing!) so I missed that piece of asshattery - I don't think I've even heard the tale. But I do remember being disappointed at the round table LOTF discussion where she kept responding to all the questions about future developments and teases with information about Boba Fett while Allston and Denning were answering about, you know, the epic downfall of the last Solo brother. At the time I thought there must have some massively huge Fett following I wasn't aware of and there was actually a sizable audience out there slavering for these hints, but now, I...no longer believe that.
Ahem. /bitterness.
Attempting to be...vaguely objective for a second, I agree that her work comes across as very...fan fictiony (ironic since I once saw her go off on one at a fan for referring to one of her hyperspace stories as RC fan fiction, making it very clear that she supported fan fiction but it wasn't what she was doing and why would you ever use that term?!). The worst bit is that it's vaunted for its objectivity when in my opinion it's the lack of any objectivity or acknowledgement of that lack to the reader that dooms it.
I don't want them to de-canonize LOTF or redo the Legacy series simply because it's done now and I don't want to go the way of Marvel or DC-style continuity and Ultimate series; they're already screwing with the continuity enough. Partly that's because I didn't hate the series as much as some people and even enjoyed some of the books on their own (though as a series it has issues), and partly because I long-ago resigned myself to the wildly fluctuating quality of the Star Wars franchise.
Her little letter really has pushed me over the edge in my hate of her. I'm tempted to talk to the LFL people I know about this as well. She's turning a lot of people away and really insulting the fanbase.
That's exactly how I felt when I read it too. Just...no. This, lady, is too far and now you've turned me into one of those crazy tinhatted author-hating folks and that is not on. DON'T BE SO CRAZY YOU DRAG ME DOWN WITH YOU!
I confess I haven't written a letter to LFL yet, though I still sort of want to and this comment has me fired up to do so again. Mainly I haven't because I very recently moved to South Korea and the post office here is sort of scary because no one speaks English and I speak extremely little Korean. But last week I did manage to successfully post my postal ballot so maybe I'll be brave enough to try... *is aware this is rather pathetic!*
If I knew people in LFL, I probably would talk to them just because a) I assume they must know about such a controversial FAQ on their own creative property on one of their most well-known authors' websites, but b) if they don't...maybe they should?
But (aside from being mega-impressed you know anyone with anything to do with LFL at all: and to think I thought I was the shit when I found out my childhood friend's great-uncle was Vader's stunt double in ESB!) obviously that's your call. Ultimately I guess...if you feel either pissed-off enough to do so, or comfortable enough speaking to these people to do so, then consider it?
I know that I've certainly reached a point where I want to make my opinion known to them, so I think I will send that letter. I don't expect it to make any difference, but I will at least feel more comfortable at having done something to address how I feel about the situation.
Anyway, great to meet you! :D