BSG: Daybreak II

[beccatoria]

The first hour had some beautiful visuals and decent action sequences. Romo Lampkin as President was ridiculous. I liked Cavil. I wish Baltar hadn't proselytized at him, but oddly, I really loved pretty much everything Caprica/Baltar and the show somehow managed that difficult task of getting me to buy into Baltar's fifty-seventh redemption. Perhaps because not buying into it would have broken my heart.

I was a little disappointed that All Along the Watchtower and the Opera House weren't as awesome or weird as they could have been, and most of my points from my last post about my disappointment with the post-humanist technological commentary still stand.

But the Opera House and Watchtower segments were very pretty and that saved a lot for me. I guess I feel that there's a real, objective argument that RDM missed a MASSIVE OPPORTUNITY with Daniel, but if he wasn't going to go that way, at least he didn't prevent that reading. Because I honestly think, regardless of his intentions, any sane person watching the show will at least stop and very seriously wonder if the show was trying to suggest that Dreilide was a surviving Daniel copy. I never thought her Cybrid status was the reason for her resurrection anyway. Different issues.

So yeah. In general, the action and character stuff was largely okay. I was disappointed that most of the Big Questions came down solely to religion rather than also technology.

I still DO NOT UNDERSTAND shooting all their cool shit into the sun. And I find that anti-technological message quite depressing. Even if I thought Kara's goodbye scene with Anders and his final flight into the sun were quite beautiful.

Two things really, really bothered me.

1) Tory's death. It's not the fact that she died, it's how and why and the way everyone treated it. It was gross. It was disturbing in a way I don't think the show intended. It made me feel extremely uncomfortable.

It was the way it was shot, too. Like...like RDM has read the anti-Tory sentiment on the internet and the whole thing was...I don't know. There was no consideration to Tory's viewpoint. I felt that Chief came off simultaneously as righteous avenger and complete fucking violent psycho.

And yeah. The way it was shot and the way he killed her and the creeptacular nature of it pinged all sorts of "Violence against women," alarms with me in ways that a lot of the other deaths of women on this show have not. Maybe also because of the history that they were once romantically involved. I don't know.

I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.

And can I point out that not three episodes ago, Chief was out a-murderin' innocents to save Boomer? Can I point out SAUL TIGH that actually someone did do that to Ellen, and it was him? Can I ask if it's appropriate to have this...warm hug from Ellen for a man who just murdered someone she was supposed to love deeply because, OH WELL. SHE GOT WHAT SHE DESERVED.

I just...yeah. I've said before and I maintain that what Tory did to Cally was one of the hardest things for me to watch on BSG. It was ugly and terrifying. But this is the show that keeps sympathy for baby murderers and the architects of genocide and collaborators and wife killers. Where the hell was Tory's point of view? Where the hell was the sympathy for her?

I just...most uncomfortable moment ever.

Really, there's nothing that'll make this better.

2) WTFCOLONIALISM?

Did they actually just decide to go to Africa and civilise the natives?

I actually really loved the ending robot montage, even if I found the head characters' final acting to be a little off, somehow. I like the idea we're all cybrids. Which is part of why I wish there were more confirmation that we're descended from many cybrids not just Hera because she's not really much more than a consolation prize for the cylon race if every other contributor to our genetic material was human. But yeah. I like that even if I think they're being overly literal with making it actually, literally, for sure Hera there.

But I do think that the...I dunno. The giving the best parts of ourselves to these noble savages stuff was kind of problematic. In combination with the 268s decision to stay and help contribute to the world because apparently what the Cylon needed to learn to be "good" is that they can CHOOSE to exist to help humans. I really would have liked to see a motivation on their part stronger than, "we want to help you cus you're awesome, humans!"

Cus personally, I'd rather live on that awesome basestar with my metal siblings and hot water watching supernovas with the ridiculous gelatinous orbs in my head.

But that's just me.

To be honest, while the overtones of the writing fail, I think history itself saves the show somewhat on the colonialist front.

Because history proves that they fail. There was no agriculture 150,000 years ago. Nor for a looooong time after that, I think.

For all their grand plans, and their ultimate contribution to the genetic pool, they don't build civilisation. They fade. They teach their children to read and write, but their grandchildren can barely scratch their own names in the dirt with sticks, and their great-grandchildren don't even believe that they ever lived in space. Or maybe the trajectory is longer than that, but you get the point.

I wish it had been...reverse-colonialist more obviously because I could have gotten on board with that. As...an elegy. As a tragedy, but one that...ultimately serves a purpose in us. As a weird, "we're okay with our total lack of future," tragedy.

So yes. I deal with it by laughing my ass off imagining them all running around dirty and naked in ten years when their clothes have worn out with their illiterate half robot neanderthal children.

BECAUSE OMG, the other thing. I HAVE A NEW SHIP, Y'ALL:

CYLON/NEANDERTHALS. Because soon they will be able to bond over their oppression by humans. And the Neanderthals aren't going to hold a grudge against the Cylon for their murderous ways and the Cylon totally won't judge them for being illiterate and unable to speak.

And then we can have NEANDERBRIDS:

Neanderbrid Dave: How many mammoth in herd?
Neanderbrid Bob: One. Zero zero one one. Zero. One.

YOU KNOW YOU LOVE IT.

So yeah. I thought the first two-thirds had some gorgeous images, was fairly mainstream but at least didn't wreck anything. The ending was...weird. In that irritating, "you have good ideas yet somehow you've managed to make them suck," way that 4.5 has.

Also, I hope Caprica gets a replacement goldfish baby, that Roslin comes back from BEYOND THE GRAVE to punish Adama for turning her into the Corpse Bride, that Adama was going on about the cabin because he was ACTUALLY SENILE and will momentarily commit suicide (srsly, wtf was going on with that?), and that the Centurions come back in a few years to pick up any of the survivors who've discovered that dying of simple infections and living without toilet paper is kind of sucky.

Oh, also, my theory on why there are humans on Earth? This hasn't just happened on Kobol and Earth (the real one, not this one) and Caprica. It's happened more than that. Many, many, many times. Even on this Earth once before. There's a diaspora of humanity. Didn't they leave people behind on New Caprica by accident? Might there not still be people in the Colonies?

And now it's over and I have no idea what to do with myself.

Also I have no idea whether or not I liked it. I didn't hate it. I did, at times, wonder if it was going to irrevocably change my view of the whole show. I...don't think that's happened, though.

I still think that RECLAIM WITH VIDS is the way to go. But I'm not sure how long it'll be 'til I have another. I've ground to a halt on my D'Anna vid, though if I don't start on it again soon, I'll make an actual effort to make myself.

HMM.

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Fucking word to the Chief stuff.

ETA: Just read Mo Ryan's interview with RDM. He actually says "It was all coming to a moment of resolution, and you kind of want to condemn him for it, and then you look at what happened after that, and you kind of want to celebrate him for it." So it was okay to turn Chief into a murderous violent guy because that let them defeat Cavil. Sigh.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

...what?

I just. What?!

Yeah, the violent murder of women in a particularly gendered fashion is totally something to be celebrated if it completely unintentionally leads to random other events.

And it didn't let them defeat Cavil. Dead Racetrack and Kara's musical typing into the FTL drive let them run away from Cavil (having potentially destroyed the Colony) and live forever as primitive dudes because they threw all their shit into a sun.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what RDM is saying as to why they should celebrate him. Honestly I forget exactly what happened there and what made Cavil commit suicide. And I found the whole damn thing such epic fail that I cannot rewatch.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I was...kind of okay with Cavil committing suicide though I wish it had been done a little less immediately. It felt like a calculated understanding that he'd lost, his race was lost and any moment someone was going to gun him down. So. Frak it. But...it was pretty abrupt.

I didn't find it epic fail mainly because there were a few ideas in it I appreciated and I made my...sort of peace with the show's apparent divergence from my opinon of WHAT IS AWESOME a few weeks ago, so I'm in a better position to take what I like and ignore the rest. But I also think I might be partly in denial about those things I don't like and we'll see if I manage to work myself to a point where I no longer care about those things (as is my wont with Star Wars) or if they eat at me.

The Chief thing, though... That I can't excuse or retcon, and I refuse to try.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

I actually completely *missed* that Cavil killed himself, because it was so abrupt and my eyes were glazing over from the action scenes. And... okay, did dead!Racetrack basically nuke the Colony? So he was pretty much screwed.

...Oh, I just skimmed the Mo Ryan interview and Cavil shooting himself was Dean Stockwell's idea. Tigh was supposed to kill him. I kinda like it in theory, but it didn't play that well for me onscreen.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I felt that Chief came off simultaneously as righteous avenger and complete fucking violent psycho.

Plus, considering that Chief instantaneously abandoned Nicky as soon as he found out that the kid wasn't BIOLOGICALLY his (as opposed to being emotionally his child, which he so is!) kind of made me wonder WHY HE EVEN CARED ENOUGH TO KILL TORI. Like, he cared enough about Cally to kill her murderess, but not enough to take care of her child? REALLY?

GRRRRR!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Yes he suddenly remembered his feelings for cabbagehead Cally whom he never truly loved anyway. Quite convenient.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I really think he did love Cally. I just think that this is the most...gross act ever to commemorate that. And that he abandons his son despite the hopeful note in the actual episode where Nicky's paternity is confirmed making it seem like he's not going to. Basically I think he does it because he's totally frakked up. And his killing of Tory is another testament to that. But...apparently one we're supposed to approve of. *sigh*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Sorry I was being sarcastic. I always thought he loved Cally and hated the cabbage speech and all the retrofitting about him never truly loving her.

I'm so sad that they twisted Chief, one of my favorites, into this. The proud, caring guy he was in s1 and s2 and even parts of s3....given way to this.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

No, it's cool, sorry I didn't pick up on the sarcasm. I feel just like you about Chief though. He's Chief. We LOVED him. *snuffle*

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I hate the whole Nicky thing. In the episode where Nicky's paternity is revealed it's kind of hopeful, like Chief and Hot Dog are gonna work together on this. But we never see Chief with his son ever again and just... Yeah.

I completely believe that Chief did love Cally and left Nicky on account of being completely messed up and hell, maybe, if I'm feeling kind (which I'm really not but I'm trying to be magnanimous) believed, perhaps even rightly, that Nicky's life would be easier in a Cylon-prejudiced Fleet without him around.

Hell, maybe Nicky's paternity is part of the reason he's so messed up about the entire Cally situation he responds this violently. But that doesn't make it less disturbing or generally horrifying way to "avenge" his wife.

I mean, even if they wanted to do this to Chief - to have him so messed up he just up and murders Tory in vengeance - why couldn't they do what they did at ever other turn of rough justice in this show? Maintain sympathy and condemnation for both sides? Give us a single shot of Tory's terror, or someone trying to pull Chief away, or...just...anything other than this torture-porn style cinematography that assumes we're right behind the Chief punching the air and egging him on instead of being really fucking disturbed at this turn of events.

...sorry. I am wordy because...this is possibly the most upset I have ever been at BSG. I mean, there are characters and issues I've cared about more, but to me this is the least ambiguous in both its suckitude and disturbingness.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

this is possibly the most upset I have ever been at BSG. I mean, there are characters and issues I've cared about more, but to me this is the least ambiguous in both its suckitude and disturbingness.
*hugs* I was here with "Razor", but then I had the rest of season four to focus on and I was able to put it behind me. I am very, very sad that people are here now, on the very last episode, and the show has to go OUT like this for you. :(

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

...yeah. I mean, the stuff I like I still like. But I just...*flails*

What the fuck do we do with this, you know?

I'm sorry you had to have that experience too, you know, with Razor. I do think that it won't be my overriding memory of BSG, but I'm also...it's not good, you know? /vague.

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

I mean, even if they wanted to do this to Chief - to have him so messed up he just up and murders Tory in vengeance - why couldn't they do what they did at ever other turn of rough justice in this show? Maintain sympathy and condemnation for both sides? Give us a single shot of Tory's terror, or someone trying to pull Chief away, or...just...anything other than this torture-porn style cinematography that assumes we're right behind the Chief punching the air and egging him on instead of being really fucking disturbed at this turn of events.

Wordy McWordpants times one thousand.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

*clings to people who understand*

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

FUCK THE CHIEF/TORY THING SO HARD. I HATE IT. I CAN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT IT.

I agree with you that the brief stuff involving the primitives was extremely problematic and I'm glad they didn't go into it that much. I think they were going for something entirely different about the repetition of Kobol/Earth/the Colonies, and how each of them tried to restart civilization only for the robotics and A.I. tech and all that downfall to repeat itself (some thoughts here?) They had to stretch reality and logic quite a bit to make this fall into the *real* evolutional history of Earth, and... well, like you said, WTF. In a few generations they'll be forgotten and evolution will just march on the natural way with their Cylon/human hybrid DNA, apparently.

Just... bah, I don't think any of it was *intentionally* racist or Colonialism-type thinking, but the blindness to how squicky it looked is pretty bad.

P.S. Rejection of all technology? Really? When the 145s are still out there somewhere (for the time being) and you're just *trusting* (albeit nicely) that the Centurions will never come back and try to destroy you? Okay.

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

Yup. Not to mention the part where the very first time someone dies of blood poisoning from an infected scratch, they're going to feel really quite remarkably frakking stupid about abandoning antibiotics along with robotics.

Also, those "primitives" probably had a far better notion of how to survive the prehistoric Tanzanian savannah than the colonists did. Particularly without their scientific advantages, guns, etc. It's like RDM saw a National Geographic special about evolution ten years ago, and based his plot on misty, sentimentalised memories of the special.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

*clings to you*

I totally do not get how the Quorum of Ships weren't all, "I CALL GALACTICA'S HULL AS A GIANT TENT!"

I don't think any of it was intentionally racist either, but I can't help but think of the recently released Resident Evil game which is set in Africa and like, the entire plot is being a white guy running around Africa gunning down black zombies. These black zombies occasionally up and steal hot white chicks for you to rescue. And you're like...guys. I know that you are a Japanese company and thus have a different set of racial cliches that are probably on your radar, but this shit is bananas and you ought to pay someone to tell you that before you spend billions on game design.

I mean, okay, this isn't as blatant as that but like. Still.

*facepalm*

[cyborganize.livejournal.com]

I MISS YOU OMG. I was thinking about you the whole time. I figured there was stuff that you wouldn't hate for you to cling to, but OW.

I don't think I've even fully processed all the FAIL yet. the POLITICS of the conclusion were horrifying to a degree that I was unprepared for.

I'm OK though, I just can't be near fandom or especially RONALD D MOORE and his epic epic wank. hope you're surviving.

one day we're going to have an brilliant brainstorming session about lambasting it in PSA form and make a kickass Prelinger mashup that will fix everything.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I MISS YOU TOO.

Basically I liked some of the visuals, the stuff with Baltar and Caprica except his weird preaching, the fact that since they didn't have good explanations for shit like the Opera House, the Song and Kara's Dad they mostly just vagued the hell out of it (I mean, I dislike that they didn't have good explanations in the first place, but since I knew that already, I like that they at least didn't wreck stuff more). I also liked Hera as our common ancestor and the fact that Head Baltar referred to "god" as "it" while Head Six went on about math and patterns so I am just GOING TO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS A ROBOT.

Oh, also I liked that Laura was hot and wearing very little.

That makes it sound like I liked quite a lot. I think the problem is the same as ALWAYS in S4.5.

Good ideas completely screwed by shitty presentation and focusing on the wrong, if not the opposite things to the things that they need to focus on.

So like, the loss of their technology as the herald of reverse-colonialism as their entire culture fades because they committed genocide on each other and as they become subsumed into primitive tribal lifestyles while simultaneously becoming more and more literally machines themselves, even though they can't even freaking work out how to make a bow and arrow...? That story? The story I wish I'd seen?

Not there because, I dunno. Focus. Bullshit. *sigh*

We're totally gonna kick its ass with Prelinger though. And possibly the fic I'm about to write about how their entire civilisation disolves.

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

Um. Word. The whole thing was just so much CRAZYPANTS FAIL that it's not even funny. I feel I must wipe it from my brain, along with most of the rest of 4.5. Except for the two specific bits I want to reclaim with fic.

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I wish I could wipe stuff from my brain as easily as other people seem to. I'm...bad at just excising stuff from canon. Instead I have to find a way to not hate it somehow. *sigh*

I am, however, planning to reclaim it in fic, yes. Just one I want to write. We'll see.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I have a second post I've been working on on and off all day trying to get an idea of how I feel about it all because I'm still not sure. Overall, I still like it, but, yeah there are problems. It's like it went off the rails once they landed on earth. But earth isn't the problem with Kara's lack of closure.

Romo Lampkin as president, even for a few hours, was a joke. I think Paula would have been a better choice or one of the ships captains.

'All Along the Watchtower' worked surprisingly well for me. I had my doubts when it was first introduced, but they maintained the thread and tied it to earth.

Personally, I wish they had not relied so heavily on divine intervention, however that aspect of the series has been there since the mini and so it's not shocking that they went in that direction. I'm actually looking at watching Head Six's scenes much more closely on my next rewatch.

I agree with you about Tory and Tyrol, but I'm not feeling the rage you are. On an intellectual level I certainly see your points and even I thought Tory's death was more graphic and disturbing than need be, but I also don't particularly care about the characters.

I was reading a tiny bit about Mitochondrial Eve, populations bottlenecks, and Toba Catastrophe Theory earlier and trying to figure out where the Colonials and Cylons actually fit in all this. They could have created an evolutionary jump, they became us without breeding with those already populating the earth, but then how did all that knowledge become lost?

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you like it. I think I agree with you about it going off the rails when they get to Earth. Which is so unfair because in principle I love what they were trying to do.

I think in general I'm just mourning the fact that one of the things I loved best about 4.5 was the slow blending of human and Cylon culture in the Fleet. And that's kind of...gone now. I mean, not entirely because the 268s are still there. But all the beautiful visuals; redstripe Centurions fighting alongside marines, Cylons on the memorial wall, joint funeral services, commissioned Cylon officers and representatives on the quorum on this beautiful cyborged ship... that's gone.

I liked Watchtower too, actually. And I honestly don't have any problem with it being tied to Earth and co-ordinates and something that people just...mystically come up with at times. But I still think that Kara's dad knowing it and teaching it to her is very random when all the rest ties so neatly into the Earth-Cylon-Hybrid thing? It did work for me as the final blind-jump though.

I wish there hadn't been as much divine intervention either. And I never thought I'd say that because I like the inexplicably mystical. But I thought it was a little too much god, too little creepy robots in this instance.

I think you're right and half of why I hate the Tory and Tyrol stuff so much is that I like Tory a lot and I always used to love Chief until his recent turn at CREEPY GUY. But just...eeew.

I'd love to hear any of your thoughts on where the Colonials and Cylons fit in! I'm a little confused too. But...if they became us without breeding with the humans already there, I think all the lost knowledge is easy to explain.

They shot all their tech into the sun without any ways of rebuilding it. How many generations before this lost lore becomes secondary to practical survival? Throughout human history there have been dark ages and rennaisances where information is lost and regained and this was 150,000 years ago. Any evidence they did leave of complex settlements or tools, etc., would very, very likely simply be lost to time. Which is why I don't think that the whole anti-technology message was necessary in the first place.

They could have had a stable if relatively low-tech civilsation last for twenty-thousand years before some minor catastrophe scattered them and us not finding any evidence of it wouldn't be all that weird.

But also...I'm like, totally backseat anthropology driving here and don't really know what I'm talking about!

[obsessive-a101.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here. (^_^)" (Overall, I was okay with the finale... Hee.) Anyway, on the entire mitochondrial eve thing... I sort of laughed a bit because well... MCB. Anyway, the only reasoning I can come up with is that they are relying on the 'fiction' part of science fiction so as twisting it a bit, but mDNA (mitochondrial DNA) is passed directly from mother to offspring without variation, so my impression is that they used this as the cylon's basic contribution to all resulting humans on the planet? That we are ALL hybrids in a way? Only problem with that is - plants and animals have the same mDNA construct (I think - I need to review) - that and chloroplasts as well - so... (^_^)"

As for the colonialism aspect - I actually didn't even think about that. (o_o) However, what I do remember from human evolution (need to review - again) there was a point where human evolution branched from two main groups and there were questions as to one group interbred with the other in order to form modern day Homo sapiens or if one evetually dominated the other, evolutionary-wise, so much as to lead to the cutting off of the other branch. Hmm... *food for thought*

[asta77.livejournal.com]

But I still think that Kara's dad knowing it and teaching it to her is very random when all the rest ties so neatly into the Earth-Cylon-Hybrid thing?

But it's not random, Daniel's her father! That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

They shot all their tech into the sun without any ways of rebuilding it. How many generations before this lost lore becomes secondary to practical survival? Throughout human history there have been dark ages and rennaisances where information is lost and regained and this was 150,000 years ago. Any evidence they did leave of complex settlements or tools, etc., would very, very likely simply be lost to time. Which is why I don't think that the whole anti-technology message was necessary in the first place.

Your comment here reminded me of a book I read years ago. Some sort of calamity befell the human race, disease most likely, and only a small percentage of the population survived. (No, this is not The Stand ;p) The narrator of the story was recounting how he tried to, first, rebuild a life for himself, essentially hooking up with the first woman he found, then tried to keep society going. At first, it worked. Cars were still on the road. Electricity and water were still being delivered to homes. But, as the years past, the machines that kept everything running broke down and it wasn't just that people didn't have the knowledge to fix them, they didn't seem to want to be bothered doing it. By the time of his death, literacy was even being lost as his grandchildren were barely able to read or write. So I can easily see all the knowledge the Cylons and Colonial have now being lost over the generations.

As for getting rid of the tech, I understand Lee's point. As I went into in my last post, I think he saw the probability of, not only the Centurions being used as labor to build their cities, but the potential of the indigenous, 'inferior' population being enslaved to service them and the cycle quickly being repeated.

[emmiere.livejournal.com]

SO MUCH WORD ON EVERYTHING TORY.

I can't even deal with how much I hated that, the show finally marginalized her entirely and destroyed Chief for me all in one moment and its aftermath.

I thought earlier today that I had reached some kind of peace with this as the ending by just forgetting/ignoring/rationalizing a lot of the awful bits. But too many of my constructed readings keep falling down the more I think about it. Even the character bits I enjoyed often go right along
with thematic fail.

The "we are all Cybrids" thing is one of the few aspects that works for me, and I'm loving your notion about how this is one one iterations of many of these cycles of time for humanity. It makes everything more blended in a way the show failed to address. And makes us pretty frakkin' screwed in exactly the same way.

Despite the above statement on us as hybrids, I'm still not sold on the notion that it needed to be literally about us so explicitly. Which I'm aware is crazy because it seems like the plan had always been to end up in our past, but I don't think any of the metaphor falls down if they, you know, don't get to our Earth. Which is one of the reasons I hate the ending sequence still. Because it is about us, but I'm not entirely sure what they're trying to tell us about ourselves right now and I suspect I have issues with it.

For all their grand plans, and their ultimate contribution to the genetic pool, they don't build civilization. They fade.

This? Is why I think that it was actually a really depressing ending, not the hopeful note they may have intended. I dislike the notion of civilizing the noble savage, but having them disappear so completely just makes me sad.

And I want to adopt a Neanderbrid now.

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

This? Is why I think that it was actually a really depressing ending, not the hopeful note they may have intended. I dislike the notion of civilizing the noble savage, but having them disappear so completely just makes me sad.

See, apparently the intention (ie I read an interview) was that all of the similarities between our civilization and colonial civilization are due to the fact that we learned it from them, so they didn't disappear. Which might not make sense in terms of how we know it actually happened, but I'm happy to just look at BSG as an 'AU' version of Our History and run with that. Because the alternative is WAY more depression than what was intended.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I understand looking at it that way. I think for me, even within the show, 150,000 years is just such a long time, and there have been so many cultures and stuff that I can't really see an exact line there.

So my way of...looking at it is that yes, we are absolutely similar to the Colonials and the Kobol folks and the Cylons from the original Earth because we are all part of the same cycle and we're all inter-related and complex systems repeat themselves like mathematics and so we end up evolving in the same ways and evolving the same cultural tics simply because, as my favourite line in the whole show says, "All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again."

But I can't see it as a direct parallel. That we wear ties because our ancestors 150,000 years ago did? Or that's why modern western politics resembles their so closely?

Because even if it's AU Times Square, that's still 150,000 years to reach a comparable level of technology, and I know, I totally know I'm overthinking the whole, "it's a metaphor" thing but I can't help it. No civilisation in our entire history has ever lasted even a tiny fraction of that length of time, continuously. Except, perhaps, the stone age aboriginal Australians with their myths of a time when Australia was totally covered in rain forest.

But I totally respect and envy your ability to look at it this way.

[emmiere.livejournal.com]

I'm a little bit of the opinion too that the scale of time is too great for such direct parallels. And disappearing completely is probably coming on a bit strong from me too, but it was played as such a hopeful ending and the sadness inherent in it struck me almost immediately. Which I did can see played on the show if I squint, but it was a little light for me to say that it was intentionally there in the larger moments of saying goodbye to everyone. Probably part of it is, well, the show ended too, and I'm busily rationalizing a fair number of things that happened on Friday anyway. I hate having to add our entire history into the mix. Though I'm very interested in the idea of what fragments of knowledge might have been passed on in a more subtle way maybe.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I can't even deal with how much I hated that, the show finally marginalized her entirely and destroyed Chief for me all in one moment and its aftermath.

YES. THIS. EXACTLY.

I think I like that it's specifically us mainly because the whole show is so clearly a cypher for "us" anyway, that even if it was an AU Earth I'd still have all the problems I have about what they're saying about "us". Although, like you, I have no idea what that is. And I'm inclined to be grateful because I also believe I wouldn't like it and this way I can imagine it's something better than I fear.

The other reason I like that it's literally us is that, while it's not a mindbreaking idea for folks like us who have probably thought about this already and for quite some time, I think to a more mainstream audience it really might be a surprising and thought-provoking idea? Or perhaps just that since it's the only place they really let Cybritidy flourish this season, I'm kind of on board with their just making it as CRACKED OUT as possible?

This? Is why I think that it was actually a really depressing ending, not the hopeful note they may have intended. I dislike the notion of civilizing the noble savage, but having them disappear so completely just makes me sad.

I do understand that. On one level it is tragic. I'm also kind of okay with a tragic end for this show. It's about the death of two great races, and...are they resurrected?

I don't think that they just disappear completely. Firstly, on a shorter scale, I'm sure they do maintain a strong sense of their own community and societies. I doubt any of the Colonists who land live to see the disappearance of their everything they ever were.

On a longer scale every civilisation disappears. Every culture. Every language.

They might have failed to compress 150,000 years of evolution into a couple of decades of teaching the early humans how to speak and make more complicated tools, but their integration into the population of Earth (whether biologically or socially) is going to affect things. Will make a difference.

Things end, and fade, and it's sad and depressing, but it's also...what happens and it doesn't mean they disappeared without a trace.

It means they changed. They got colonised. In 150,000 years I don't expect human civilisation - if it exists at all - to be anything like ours. But I also don't think that means that, as a culture, we've failed. Or that our legacy is gone, just because they don't remember us.

I'm wary of reducing it to biology, but on that large a scale, it really is the only remaining link, and I think changing the entire evolution of a species is a pretty damn big legacy. Even if the stories of the individuals who affected it are more poignant, tragic and all about...fading?

Sorry for going on about it. It's just an idea I both love and am uncomfortable with at the same time. So I babble. ;)

[emmiere.livejournal.com]

I think I like that it's specifically us mainly because the whole show is so clearly a cypher for "us" anyway, that even if it was an AU Earth I'd still have all the problems I have about what they're saying about "us"

No, I agree that a simple switch of location doesn't solve anything and create potentially more problems for them to solve and screw up. And you might have a point about perspectives on this. Growing up reading scifi, I've been pretty comfortable with the idea that it's always us, so my response to the show announcing that is, "Yes. And?" And it's in the answer of that question that I'm not sure what we're left with, because there were a few pretty strange ideas implicated in the finale, starting with the anti-technology bent. So for me at least, holding up the mirror isn't a satisfying conclusion. But I might be out of the norm on that.

On a longer scale every civilisation disappears. Every culture. Every language.

Yes. And this is such an intensely uncomfortable idea (though true) to me personally, that my initial reaction is, OMG, TRAGEDY! A large number of my older relatives are very concerned with ancestry and I've followed this theme of recording narratives in the photography that I do. So viewing on a personal level how quickly information is lost, to the point I'll probably wave vaguely at any potential offspring of mine and go, "well, your great-grandmother was Czech", it does strike me as terribly final being taken on such a large scale. But you're right that it is just what happens.

It's a bit strong for me to frame it as disappearing forever, because I don't really think that's what the show was trying to tell us. There's legacies and then legacies, and there is a kind of elegance to this particular story melding into our larger history, even just biologically, and ours into the whole of "all of this has happened before." I wish I'd gotten more of this sense from the show, because as played, I don't really see how they changed the cycle in any way, if that was the goal. Unless the message is that it's now our responsibility to do so?

Sorry, I'm getting rambly myself at this point.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Reclaim with vids, sounds good to me. ;)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm at least going to try! *wibble*

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Neanderbrid Dave: How many mammoth in herd?
Neanderbrid Bob: One. Zero zero one one. Zero. One.

YOU KNOW YOU LOVE IT.

OMG I DO! I REALLY DO *laugh!tear*

Tory: Interesting that she'd be the trigger for violence against women issues for you. I didn't take it that way at all. She was poorly written, and so too was Tyrol in the end, but I think his actions were understandable based on what we've known of his path of lostness that began way back when he was first wondering if he was a Cylon (and. um. beat the shit out of Cally...erm. Yeah.) His path has been an aimless spiral that really took a turn further down when Cally died and he had no idea why. We have know he's capable of such anger and violence so it was not at all surprising to me, his reaction immediately, and later to him wanting to just go off and be away from everyone.

But you're right about everyone else's reaction to it, especially Saul. Again, my issues rise with the Tighs being the Happy Couple and if They forgive, then All is Okay. But of course, everyone gets away with murder around here! As much as I love Caprica, her acceptance into the fleet by the main peeps, grudging or no, is questionable. Whether or not they know her key role in the destruction... not to mention Athena. We're evidently working on a 'don't ask what you did during the war before you fell in love with Helo, don't tell.'

and that the Centurions come back in a few years to pick up any of the survivors who've discovered that dying of simple infections and living without toilet paper is kind of sucky.

BWAHAHA <3 Too true. All 39,000 peeps were totally okay with cavorting in their undies with the natives and sending the technology away? (well, except for that one Raptor which people are going to find eventually). I get the concept, but like the entire concept of the rescue mission, I do not accept that everyone was cool with it.

Sending the ships away upset me more because they opted to give Sam moments of coherence first.

As for the native breeding program? Yeahuh. I'd rather we invoke the Prime Directive and wait until the natives get warp technology before we go interfering with them.

Bill on the Mountain? I'm assuming he's going to commit suicide, based on the fact that he took the Raptor and Lee did not expect to see him back but he took no stuff with him. Hey, maybe he was smart and took the Raptor into the sun too, thus negating my concern about the future us finding it and going wtf? There's lots of wtf there anyway since the technology of the ships might have been sent away, but even things like the metal used for containers is going to come into question when the archapologists find it.

I didn't like the social commentary in the end about robotica. This isn't an episode of GI Joe where knowing is half the battle. I know technology and reliance on it is a dangerous thing. I didn't need BSG to throw in the heavy hand with that. Nor did I need the melodramatic narative from the Angels.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I assumed Adama was going to kill himself after spending a little more time in La La Land.

I have a hard time believing the humans and Cylons were eager to breed with the indigenous people. Maybe we can assume they brought some disease with them that wiped out most of the indigenous folk and the evolutionary jump came from Cylons and humans finally making a lot of babies and repopulating the earth.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I agree, although I'd like to believe that the natives got a few spear pokes in before they died out.

It would have been nice to actually see some of the Cylons, other than Athena, heading off with the Colonials (or did I miss that? I was rather busy wondering a)what Romo was doing and b) why he was so doing in his robe.)

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I didn't see any Cylons other than Caprica and Athena which I thought was odd. The Cylons couldn't isolate themselves since they needed humans to procreate.

Romo was apparently still president of a very small group of people and doing a headcount to make sure he didn't lose anybody.

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Forgot to ask: Why did Cavil kill himself? Did he momentarily forget Resurrection was gone and figure he'd pop back up on the Bastestar?

Also also, the sad thing about the whole commentary and the breaking of the Cycle of Violence is that they didn't do so. Cavil's Cylons still existed, and they were going to have a lot of trouble without Res and any female Cylons. That would have given sufficient motivation for them to hunt down the Colonials. BUt I suppose we'll just assume they tried but failed and thereby died out.

[(Anonymous)]

YOU ARE SO RIGHT ABOUT THE TORY THING.

That MAJORLY bothered me. Everything you said is so so right. At best, RDM left all of Tory's character development on the cutting room floor, and realized he needed to solve the Cally/Tory/Chief issue and had like 30 seconds to do it. At worse, (and much more likely), Tory is a female character that got a little too powerful for her britches and needed to be punished/put down. Ew. Ew ew ew. The Tory/Galen backstory clearly had NO REASON TO BE THERE and ended up just making him kill her way more like domestic violence. Totally triggering. NOT OK.

As for the colonialism, I see no silver lining. The humans and cylons can reproduce so there WAS NO REASON TO HAVE "NATIVES" ON EARTH. RDM did not need to do that and made the whole ending really disgusting for me. Him killing off the speaking characters of color (except for Hera/Helo/Athena) in the beginning of the episode just made it feel worse. (Hmmm. What to do... I know, Kill Skulls Again!) Sigh. It was all so unnecessary from a plot POV. >:(

I WANNA GO ON THE PARTYSTAR WITH THE CENTURIONS

On a side note, I love your recaps. They really helped me get thro 4.5!

-Pigeonface