Meme: Top Fives!
Aug. 15th, 2009 11:39 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beccatoriaOkay! So, Top Fives:
Top Five Female Characters - for![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
chaila43.
This one is hard, you guys. I'm horribly under-read and, um, watched, so this isn't anything like an objective opinion about the greatest women in fictional history, nor is it, really, "my favourite characters who happen to be girls," because I did feel at least some need to be...expansive at least to a degree. So really this is my Top Five of the Moment, which has some GLARING OMISSIONS of characters I spent...great deals of my life in love with so, I compromised and listed five, but included a "see also!" section at the end for other female characters I feel exist along...vaguely the same axis.
5. Xena! The reason Xena is here, rather than Buffy, or River, or a dozen other "warrior woman" stereotypes (yes, even the ones who were done really well, or whom I love dearly, like Aeryn Sun - and believe me, I love Aeryn Sun) is the fact that somehow? Despite wearing an ACTUAL ARMOUR BATHING SUIT, clearly designed to play into the Franz Frazetta tits and chainmail aesthetic, the sheer balls of Lucy Lawless' performance - not least her increasing willingness as the series went on, to pull the most fucking RIDICULOUS faces into the camera - prevented them from ever girlfying her. And like, I'm not trying to say that kickass women should never be feminine, hell no, but I do think that Xena rather fantastically avoided the "tiny girl, can kick your ass," cliche that's often actually more about how CUTE she looks before she kicks your ass (as part of a sexual fantasy) than actual power? While Xena? Could clearly actually kick your ass. Probably while making hilarious and unappealing bug-eye expressions at you.
See also: Miss Piggy. Ace (from Doctor Who). Susan Ivanova.
4. Supergirl. I should clarify I mean Kara Zor-El, Clark Kent's cousin, rather than the various other incarnations of the character after her original death in Infinite Crisis. I'm also glossing over the first arc of the relaunched series with that weird assassin-kryptonite-poisoning-whiny phase. I'm talking about her more recent arcs where she's starting to work out her own philosophy on superheroinism. I love how she keeps a lot of the Superman myth, the profound love and determination to make a difference. More than that, I love how she manages to be discovering her own character, one that's very distinct from her more famous cousin, but without the overly simplistic rebellious teenager thing. Kara is really pretty competant, even if she hasn't quite worked everything out yet. And I love the determination of anyone who will wait in space for 30 years so a time-travelling villain keeps jumping back and forward in time to escape only to find she's still there. And finally, I love that she is still working things out. She's learning who she's gonna be and who she's gonna be is shaping up to be pretty awesome. I love that she's not paralysed by fear of the future, or fear that she doesn't know best. She's decided she wants to help people not just save them, and maybe that'll end up in some freaky weird future with giant statues of her and cloned Batmen, and maybe not, but she's sure as hell going to try. And that's awesome.
See also: Olivia Dunham. Caprica Six.
3. Sarah Connor. Mostly I'm talking about the TV version here. Not because the movie version isn't awesome, but because she fits more into the "Xena" category to me. TV Sarah is a more...sober take on an action heroine. There's space for both and both are important, but while the "Xena" category is - to me - more about rejection of feminisation as the most important determinant in being "female", this category is more about characters whose action heroism exists in a glorious tangle of gender politics. I think there's probably something in there about waves of feminism but quite honestly I can't remember which is which. Sarah primarily self-identifies as a mother; her position as "important because she gave birth to robot fighting Jesus," is inherently precarious in terms of feminism, and yet the show tackles this and generally handles it very well. Similarly, she's the eye in the centre of a storm of "emotional (female) human versus logical (male) machine," and "never killed anyone and Derek thinks she's too soft," and "too overprotective," and she's the one with visions and prophetic dreams (even if wholly metaphorical) and is "crazy" by the standards of the modern world. And yet. She's nails and awesome and the entire damn show is named after her and maybe it's just because we'll never get to see the end of her story, but they didn't fail and I love them for it.
See also: Kara Thrace. The Jedi Exile (KOTOR II).
2. Morrigan Corde/Nyna Calixte. Quite aside from the fact it was the "Luke! I am your father!" of my life, and aside from the fact that her story is not finished, and perhaps, like Sarah's, it has six easy ways to fail at all times, I love this character. Incredibly competant, brutally scheming, with about seventeen plans and I'm convinced at least one of them is benevolent. A little. Maybe. If it involves one of her kids who don't know her, kind of hate her or both... :/
I'm also really intrigued by the way motherhood is handled with regards to her. I mean, she twice ditched out on her kids and left them to be raised by their fathers into their fathers' profession, to follow her own career and her own ambitions. And while the comic doesn't celebrate this, it doesn't exactly condemn it either. We're introduced to her as a benevolent secret protector, later revealed to have fingers in the very pies that wanted her kid dead in the first place, but by then, we're hooked and the comic quite definitely wants us to stay that way, not angry?
Also she does that whole sexy, manipulative spy thing without it being entirely icky and bonus points for kick-ass women over 40 who are still allowed to be attractive!
See also: Irina Derevko. Head Six. Mara Jade. Kreia (very sort of).
1. Laura Roslin. You guys, I do not believe I need to explain further, suffice to say, I'm tactically ignoring certain aspects of 4.5 and concentrating on the amazing mix of powerful, compassionate, determined, terrifying, loving and over-50.
See also: Well, let's be honest, no one holds a candle to her, but Harriet Jones, Hermione Granger, Leia Organa, Sarah-Jane Smith and Eowyn of the Rohirrim are all kind of in the same mould. Though also...none of them are entirely. Because Laura Roslin is unique and beautiful snowflake!
And that was long enough I bet you wish you hadn't asked!
Top Five Star Wars EU Moments - forsilverblade219.
5. Yoda challenging Dooku to convince him the dark side is better. I think I love it because I'm so convinced that Yoda is deadly serious the entire time. Like, he honestly is willing to consider that peace under the influence dark side is as viable and "good" as peace under the influence of the light side. And he will give all of Dooku's arguments his entire attention. The fact we know he won't be convinced doesn't really matter, against that level of earnestness and sincerity? And then Obi-Wan and Anakin fly in to save the day and I want to throttle them.
4. "But I can't be afraid. Fear leads to the dark side, doesn't it, master?" - Zayne Carrick. There are a lot of moments in this series I love and I almost picked the one where Carth tells Zayne he warned the cities instead because it also exemplifies much of what I love about the series. But I like this one because it's what sets the whole thing in motion really. How innocent and heroic Zayne is, but also the way the series deftly deals with philosophy - that unanswerable question which frames the entire series - how do you handle visions of the future? If you act out of fear, the opening act of this series, is proof that it leads to the dark side. If you don't act, the computer game series is proof, they might come true.
3. "I'm a killer too," - Rain. Jedi vs Sith. I still think it's the most believable and horrifying Sith genesis story ever. Because you understand why Rain totally looses it after everything she's been through and kills that guy. It's one of those horrible, pointless mix-ups and she's what, a 7 year old kid in the middle of it? And it's nearly an accident? But she's such a good person she understands exactly what she's done, and when an adult accepts her for it and tells her this is who she is now...she believes him.
2. Nyna Calixte IS Morrigan Corde. Unexpected. Amazing. Sick-to-your-stomach as the one person in the world looking out for Cade turns into the architect of this frakked-up universe. And also, how cool is it?!
1. The Ganner. My god that was beautiful. Everything about it, from Jacen's realisation that he can approach a violent pointless universe with love, to Ganner's realisation that he can just be. This wonderful ending for a serial playactor, who finally stops worrying that he's playacting and discovers, with enough convinction, there's no difference. Vergere telling Jacen that Ganner isn't giving his life for Jacen, he's giving Jacen's life to Jacen and would he throw away a dying man's last gift? And Ganner himself, this perfect moment that I believe utterly and realistically in the context of the story and that also, I completely understand how, in a thousand generations, it will be a myth and Ganner will be a god. Just...the perfect culmination to a myth about philosophy.
Top Five Unintentionally Hilarious Moments - foremmiere.
5. Bill Adama'ssex fantasy with Leoben paint breakdown in Islanded in a Stream of Stars. I still can't decide if the similarities with that Leoben sex scene were intentional or not. I mean, I can't believe that they were, but equally, how could it not be? O_O
4. Pretty much anything to do with Karen Traviss glorifying the Mandalorians. But I think I'm gonna go with Etain's death. Because really, when faced with your beloved troops revolting and trying to murder not only you, but everyone associated with you including children, the sensible thing to do is go off on a self-righteous internal monologue about how you have to defend the guy who's trying to kill you from the person who's trying to defend you/himself. And then doing so, not with your weapon, but by THROWING YOURSELF IN FRONT OF A LIGHTSABER. Despite the fact chapters ago you were happily planning your future family life with your husband and son. Combined with the fact the whole thing was so clearly written to be...moving? Like, her last thoughts are of looking up at a T-visor, "so familiar, so loved!" Um. UM UM UM UM UM. *facepalm*
Also an honourable mention to Boba Fett's pet eel. Which in the actual kids books, he hated and cackled gleefully when he set it free and watched it get eaten by a sea creature. It's okay though, kind of like how she retconned every single questionable act Fett ever committed into "Secretly really, really noble!", by the age of 71, Boba recalls his ABJECT HORROR at the death of this eel. IT DIED, DIED "BEFORE IT HAD EVER TASTED FREEDOM"! Because, um, the Jedi killed his dad. And his dead eel was just like that. Yes. Or, you know, senile dementia is setting in.
3. Bill Adama: FOXES! FOXES! SHOOT ME SAUL, I'M GOING TO SAY CRUDE THINGS ABOUT YOUR WIFE! MY SON'S WIFE DIED SO I MADE IT ALL ABOUT ME, AND NOW IT'S YOUR TURN! FOOOOOOOXESSSSSSS!
Me: There is a perfectly good radioactive ocean on Earth. I wholeheartedly condone your immitation of these suicidal drowning foxes.
(Note: this would have been #1 but it's kind of almost...too easy. Plus while personally more hilarous/reprehensible, he's had far greater moments of professional insanity.)
2. Basically the entirety of Ecks vs Sever where I really, really don't think the show realises that poor Antonio Banderas isn't playing a furious, fiery, vengeful loose-canon 'cop' archetype, but a totally incompetant halfwit. But if I have to pick one moment, it will be that Ecks' GRAND MASTER PLAN to defeat his nemesis is to lure him into a confrontation in between two parked trains with lots of pipes on them, and then reveal he is standing on a landmine. His masterstroke is to jump off the landmine, presumably in an attempt to catch everyone in the explosion.
What actually happens is, the pipes come crashing down on Ecks like an idiot, and not only does he not catch his nemesis in his cunning trap, he does not manage to down a single one of the henchmen either. So he's just there. Crushed by pipes. While everyone runs away. *facepalm*
1. Bill Adama's Tighlon breakdown. As I said, not as personally ridiculous or indulgent as #3, but I will never ever get over the fact that either he got himself THAT drunk and drooling in 15 minutes, or he was busy getting that drunk and drooling while D'Anna was AIRLOCKING HOSTAGES. Srsly people. Comedy. Gold.
Honourable mention to Sine Qua Non: Remember how earlier we were having a fight about how it's not enough that you're loyal, I need you to be competant? And like, not knock up prisoners of war? HERE. HAVE THE REMNANTS OF HUMANITY! XD
I bet you totally did not expect me to mention Adama at ALL did you? /sarcams. I hope you appreciate my great restraint in not making this ONLY a list of him. /absolute sincerity.
Top Five Sixes - forkiki_miserychic.
5. Sonja! Because she is political and Sixy and is totally going to frak Lee Adama and it will be angsty because NOOO CYLONS!! but NOOOO you like me for MEEEE! And then Sonja will like...use this to her political advantage but Lee won't really hold it against her because politics is sexay. YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE, STOP FIGHTING IT.
4. Head Six! I feel bad she's so far down, but so many awesome Sixes! Actually I think she's kind of lower because while I love her, I miss her being a character with like...feelings and stuff. In S3 and S4 after both we and Baltar knew she definitely was not Caprica, she really changed and we never really saw stuff devastate her like Hera's "death" and Gina and stuff did? I miss that. She was so much more interesting when she was a character rather than an angel-device in his head?
3. Gina! OMG Tricia Helfer's acting. Gina still breaks my heart. It's one of the rare times I've thought a rape storyline was justified and I will love Tricia Helfer forever for fighting to keep her PTSD. I love how you can't hate her, it makes you an asshole. But the show never, ever pretends like she's fixed. I mean, Gina is not on the happy human/cylon OTP train. Gina hates you. She even hates Gaius, even though he's the only person in the world she trusts, he's still a "you". And it's heartbreaking because she was the first time Gaius was so utterly selfless and completely compassionate. And still he said it with nukes, and not enough awareness to realise she wasn't going to be fixed for him; it wasn't about him and their happily-ever-after. It was about "you". And killing you. Even though she loves you. And can't stand that.
2. Natalie! Dude. Natalie. I still hate that she died. I still love that if she was going to have the balls to choose death for everyone, she faced it first. I know it wasn't her choice, but still, somehow, the way she faced it; curious. With integrity. Plus, she unleashed a rebellion of centurions! (I move we make 'a rebellion of centurions' the official collective noun!)
1. Caprica! Like Laura Roslin I've babbled about her in my LJ enough that I probably don't need to anymore. And also like Laura it's her beautiful web of contradictions that own my heart. Namely her capacity for such boundless love and such boundless violence in the same breath. Her ability to denounce her nation without ever denouncing herself as a part of that nation. The way she is fascinated by and falls in love with everything she sees. The way her fingers get into everything, because until she touches it, it might not be real. The way she never, ever, ever stops trying to find things to love and things to love her back, despite having her heart broken more times than most of us could bear. Caprica. <3
Top Five Times I've Hated a Character I Love - forfrolicndetour.
5. Laura Roslin's speech about "home" in Islanded in a Stream of I REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR EXISTENCE! To be fair, this isn't really hatred of Laura Roslin so much as the point at which I realised that this person on the screen wasn't Laura Roslin anymore, because this person? I hated. And man. That hurt. So it needs to be here, but it's number 5 because it's...firstly a crowning moment of fail and perhaps the impressive stuff should be further up, and also because I don't want this moment to "win" anything, even a list of hate.
4. In a similar vein, Chief killing Tory in Daybreak. I still think it's the single most failTACULAR moment in the entire series with regards to women and violence, and the "perfect" capstone to the WTF of Chief's "romantic" storylines. And I just...I wouldn't have been against an exploration of Chief's violent side or even an exploration of domestic violence and vengeance through him, but not in this gross, glorifying way. And that just makes me boil with rage at a character I liked/wanted to like for so long. Seriously, I spent every shot of him after he did that wanting to punch his teeth in so he had a mouth full of blood, and I am not usually a violent person.
3. John Crichton in Natural Election when he calls Aeryn on not having told him the truth at the end and tells her to come back when she has her story straight. WHICH MAKES NO SENSE. See, most people, I think, would have identified the moment he takes the lakka at the end of John Quixote and walks away from her as a moment to hate her (you know, at least people who weren't all, Yeah John! Show her who's boss! Not that I'm bitter...). But I always saw that episode as the moment he formulated his later-revealed-plan to hide how he feels about her from Scorpius because he knows he can't do it on his own. And that's frustrating and stupid but comforting in that it means he wasn't doing it because he actually BELIEVED Aeryn had done something unworthy of forgiveness, and that she somehow had to "make it up to him".
While in NE, I try and try to think about why he's telling D'argo that he's honestly considered that Aeryn's kid wasn't either his or the other him's which basically means he's been wondering if she was cheating on other-him which is, frankly, unworthy of him. Why D'argo is supporting this. Why John is so furious that Aeryn, being scared, tried to confide in her friend about something scary and life changing. Or indeed why, when Aeryn DOES tell him the truth, which she'd been TRYING to do since the start of the episode - so like, the first time we see her after John confronts her on the issue after her return (at the end of Promises), is her trying to tell him everything like he wanted, except circumstances and poisonous plants delay this - why his "get your story straight," thing makes any sense at all? Cus like, she just DID that?
You guys, I don't even know. I get "he was hurt" or whatever, but I think he was acting like a child and therefore it made me kind of hate him and also personally retcon that he was starting to realise he had to hide his feelings from Scorpy even then. :/ (I mean, whole other thing about how he later walks into that trap voluntarily, but, like Laura stealing the election, my heroes doing things completely against my own ethical codes, depending on TV context, etc., might provoke a range of thinky emotions in me from awe to horror to heartbreak, but this is not the same as hate?)
2. Han Solo in the aftermath of Chewie's death. Now we're into the ones where I hate the character but it's a sign of the...rather amazing acting/writing/storytelling. Chewie dies, and Han's first words to his son are a snarl, "You left him!" He's a sixteen year old kid who wants nothing more than to breach the gap between them and tries and tries and his dad sinks into drunkenness and runs away. But there's also something desperately sad about Han's response to Leia's entreaties that he fix this. "He doesn't need me, he's got the Force." Because there's just Han, you know. On his own, in the middle of this family of magicians. I hate him for it. But, you know, I think I'm supposed to. After Anakin gives him a gift that Chewie made for him, and all Han can do is lie and tell Anakin it's going to be all right, and Anakin is like, "What? The war, Chewie being dead, or you leaving and not telling us where you're going to go?" And there's no answer.
1. Gaius Baltar telling Laura she ought to pray with him, because really, the destruction of their species was divinely inspired. Let's just forget the fact that the finale kind of proves him right and concentrate on the amazing, amazing acting on the part of both of them. The pure horror of it. I'm amazed, you guys. It was fantastic. And wow did I hate Gaius right then.
And that's it folks! Sorry it's so long. Y'all know I'm wordy by now. Discussion, thoughts, more top fives are all welcome!
Top Five Female Characters - for
chaila43. This one is hard, you guys. I'm horribly under-read and, um, watched, so this isn't anything like an objective opinion about the greatest women in fictional history, nor is it, really, "my favourite characters who happen to be girls," because I did feel at least some need to be...expansive at least to a degree. So really this is my Top Five of the Moment, which has some GLARING OMISSIONS of characters I spent...great deals of my life in love with so, I compromised and listed five, but included a "see also!" section at the end for other female characters I feel exist along...vaguely the same axis.
5. Xena! The reason Xena is here, rather than Buffy, or River, or a dozen other "warrior woman" stereotypes (yes, even the ones who were done really well, or whom I love dearly, like Aeryn Sun - and believe me, I love Aeryn Sun) is the fact that somehow? Despite wearing an ACTUAL ARMOUR BATHING SUIT, clearly designed to play into the Franz Frazetta tits and chainmail aesthetic, the sheer balls of Lucy Lawless' performance - not least her increasing willingness as the series went on, to pull the most fucking RIDICULOUS faces into the camera - prevented them from ever girlfying her. And like, I'm not trying to say that kickass women should never be feminine, hell no, but I do think that Xena rather fantastically avoided the "tiny girl, can kick your ass," cliche that's often actually more about how CUTE she looks before she kicks your ass (as part of a sexual fantasy) than actual power? While Xena? Could clearly actually kick your ass. Probably while making hilarious and unappealing bug-eye expressions at you.
See also: Miss Piggy. Ace (from Doctor Who). Susan Ivanova.
4. Supergirl. I should clarify I mean Kara Zor-El, Clark Kent's cousin, rather than the various other incarnations of the character after her original death in Infinite Crisis. I'm also glossing over the first arc of the relaunched series with that weird assassin-kryptonite-poisoning-whiny phase. I'm talking about her more recent arcs where she's starting to work out her own philosophy on superheroinism. I love how she keeps a lot of the Superman myth, the profound love and determination to make a difference. More than that, I love how she manages to be discovering her own character, one that's very distinct from her more famous cousin, but without the overly simplistic rebellious teenager thing. Kara is really pretty competant, even if she hasn't quite worked everything out yet. And I love the determination of anyone who will wait in space for 30 years so a time-travelling villain keeps jumping back and forward in time to escape only to find she's still there. And finally, I love that she is still working things out. She's learning who she's gonna be and who she's gonna be is shaping up to be pretty awesome. I love that she's not paralysed by fear of the future, or fear that she doesn't know best. She's decided she wants to help people not just save them, and maybe that'll end up in some freaky weird future with giant statues of her and cloned Batmen, and maybe not, but she's sure as hell going to try. And that's awesome.
See also: Olivia Dunham. Caprica Six.
3. Sarah Connor. Mostly I'm talking about the TV version here. Not because the movie version isn't awesome, but because she fits more into the "Xena" category to me. TV Sarah is a more...sober take on an action heroine. There's space for both and both are important, but while the "Xena" category is - to me - more about rejection of feminisation as the most important determinant in being "female", this category is more about characters whose action heroism exists in a glorious tangle of gender politics. I think there's probably something in there about waves of feminism but quite honestly I can't remember which is which. Sarah primarily self-identifies as a mother; her position as "important because she gave birth to robot fighting Jesus," is inherently precarious in terms of feminism, and yet the show tackles this and generally handles it very well. Similarly, she's the eye in the centre of a storm of "emotional (female) human versus logical (male) machine," and "never killed anyone and Derek thinks she's too soft," and "too overprotective," and she's the one with visions and prophetic dreams (even if wholly metaphorical) and is "crazy" by the standards of the modern world. And yet. She's nails and awesome and the entire damn show is named after her and maybe it's just because we'll never get to see the end of her story, but they didn't fail and I love them for it.
See also: Kara Thrace. The Jedi Exile (KOTOR II).
2. Morrigan Corde/Nyna Calixte. Quite aside from the fact it was the "Luke! I am your father!" of my life, and aside from the fact that her story is not finished, and perhaps, like Sarah's, it has six easy ways to fail at all times, I love this character. Incredibly competant, brutally scheming, with about seventeen plans and I'm convinced at least one of them is benevolent. A little. Maybe. If it involves one of her kids who don't know her, kind of hate her or both... :/
I'm also really intrigued by the way motherhood is handled with regards to her. I mean, she twice ditched out on her kids and left them to be raised by their fathers into their fathers' profession, to follow her own career and her own ambitions. And while the comic doesn't celebrate this, it doesn't exactly condemn it either. We're introduced to her as a benevolent secret protector, later revealed to have fingers in the very pies that wanted her kid dead in the first place, but by then, we're hooked and the comic quite definitely wants us to stay that way, not angry?
Also she does that whole sexy, manipulative spy thing without it being entirely icky and bonus points for kick-ass women over 40 who are still allowed to be attractive!
See also: Irina Derevko. Head Six. Mara Jade. Kreia (very sort of).
1. Laura Roslin. You guys, I do not believe I need to explain further, suffice to say, I'm tactically ignoring certain aspects of 4.5 and concentrating on the amazing mix of powerful, compassionate, determined, terrifying, loving and over-50.
See also: Well, let's be honest, no one holds a candle to her, but Harriet Jones, Hermione Granger, Leia Organa, Sarah-Jane Smith and Eowyn of the Rohirrim are all kind of in the same mould. Though also...none of them are entirely. Because Laura Roslin is unique and beautiful snowflake!
And that was long enough I bet you wish you hadn't asked!
Top Five Star Wars EU Moments - for
silverblade219. 5. Yoda challenging Dooku to convince him the dark side is better. I think I love it because I'm so convinced that Yoda is deadly serious the entire time. Like, he honestly is willing to consider that peace under the influence dark side is as viable and "good" as peace under the influence of the light side. And he will give all of Dooku's arguments his entire attention. The fact we know he won't be convinced doesn't really matter, against that level of earnestness and sincerity? And then Obi-Wan and Anakin fly in to save the day and I want to throttle them.
4. "But I can't be afraid. Fear leads to the dark side, doesn't it, master?" - Zayne Carrick. There are a lot of moments in this series I love and I almost picked the one where Carth tells Zayne he warned the cities instead because it also exemplifies much of what I love about the series. But I like this one because it's what sets the whole thing in motion really. How innocent and heroic Zayne is, but also the way the series deftly deals with philosophy - that unanswerable question which frames the entire series - how do you handle visions of the future? If you act out of fear, the opening act of this series, is proof that it leads to the dark side. If you don't act, the computer game series is proof, they might come true.
3. "I'm a killer too," - Rain. Jedi vs Sith. I still think it's the most believable and horrifying Sith genesis story ever. Because you understand why Rain totally looses it after everything she's been through and kills that guy. It's one of those horrible, pointless mix-ups and she's what, a 7 year old kid in the middle of it? And it's nearly an accident? But she's such a good person she understands exactly what she's done, and when an adult accepts her for it and tells her this is who she is now...she believes him.
2. Nyna Calixte IS Morrigan Corde. Unexpected. Amazing. Sick-to-your-stomach as the one person in the world looking out for Cade turns into the architect of this frakked-up universe. And also, how cool is it?!
1. The Ganner. My god that was beautiful. Everything about it, from Jacen's realisation that he can approach a violent pointless universe with love, to Ganner's realisation that he can just be. This wonderful ending for a serial playactor, who finally stops worrying that he's playacting and discovers, with enough convinction, there's no difference. Vergere telling Jacen that Ganner isn't giving his life for Jacen, he's giving Jacen's life to Jacen and would he throw away a dying man's last gift? And Ganner himself, this perfect moment that I believe utterly and realistically in the context of the story and that also, I completely understand how, in a thousand generations, it will be a myth and Ganner will be a god. Just...the perfect culmination to a myth about philosophy.
Top Five Unintentionally Hilarious Moments - for
emmiere. 5. Bill Adama's
4. Pretty much anything to do with Karen Traviss glorifying the Mandalorians. But I think I'm gonna go with Etain's death. Because really, when faced with your beloved troops revolting and trying to murder not only you, but everyone associated with you including children, the sensible thing to do is go off on a self-righteous internal monologue about how you have to defend the guy who's trying to kill you from the person who's trying to defend you/himself. And then doing so, not with your weapon, but by THROWING YOURSELF IN FRONT OF A LIGHTSABER. Despite the fact chapters ago you were happily planning your future family life with your husband and son. Combined with the fact the whole thing was so clearly written to be...moving? Like, her last thoughts are of looking up at a T-visor, "so familiar, so loved!" Um. UM UM UM UM UM. *facepalm*
Also an honourable mention to Boba Fett's pet eel. Which in the actual kids books, he hated and cackled gleefully when he set it free and watched it get eaten by a sea creature. It's okay though, kind of like how she retconned every single questionable act Fett ever committed into "Secretly really, really noble!", by the age of 71, Boba recalls his ABJECT HORROR at the death of this eel. IT DIED, DIED "BEFORE IT HAD EVER TASTED FREEDOM"! Because, um, the Jedi killed his dad. And his dead eel was just like that. Yes. Or, you know, senile dementia is setting in.
3. Bill Adama: FOXES! FOXES! SHOOT ME SAUL, I'M GOING TO SAY CRUDE THINGS ABOUT YOUR WIFE! MY SON'S WIFE DIED SO I MADE IT ALL ABOUT ME, AND NOW IT'S YOUR TURN! FOOOOOOOXESSSSSSS!
Me: There is a perfectly good radioactive ocean on Earth. I wholeheartedly condone your immitation of these suicidal drowning foxes.
(Note: this would have been #1 but it's kind of almost...too easy. Plus while personally more hilarous/reprehensible, he's had far greater moments of professional insanity.)
2. Basically the entirety of Ecks vs Sever where I really, really don't think the show realises that poor Antonio Banderas isn't playing a furious, fiery, vengeful loose-canon 'cop' archetype, but a totally incompetant halfwit. But if I have to pick one moment, it will be that Ecks' GRAND MASTER PLAN to defeat his nemesis is to lure him into a confrontation in between two parked trains with lots of pipes on them, and then reveal he is standing on a landmine. His masterstroke is to jump off the landmine, presumably in an attempt to catch everyone in the explosion.
What actually happens is, the pipes come crashing down on Ecks like an idiot, and not only does he not catch his nemesis in his cunning trap, he does not manage to down a single one of the henchmen either. So he's just there. Crushed by pipes. While everyone runs away. *facepalm*
1. Bill Adama's Tighlon breakdown. As I said, not as personally ridiculous or indulgent as #3, but I will never ever get over the fact that either he got himself THAT drunk and drooling in 15 minutes, or he was busy getting that drunk and drooling while D'Anna was AIRLOCKING HOSTAGES. Srsly people. Comedy. Gold.
Honourable mention to Sine Qua Non: Remember how earlier we were having a fight about how it's not enough that you're loyal, I need you to be competant? And like, not knock up prisoners of war? HERE. HAVE THE REMNANTS OF HUMANITY! XD
I bet you totally did not expect me to mention Adama at ALL did you? /sarcams. I hope you appreciate my great restraint in not making this ONLY a list of him. /absolute sincerity.
Top Five Sixes - for
kiki_miserychic. 5. Sonja! Because she is political and Sixy and is totally going to frak Lee Adama and it will be angsty because NOOO CYLONS!! but NOOOO you like me for MEEEE! And then Sonja will like...use this to her political advantage but Lee won't really hold it against her because politics is sexay. YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE, STOP FIGHTING IT.
4. Head Six! I feel bad she's so far down, but so many awesome Sixes! Actually I think she's kind of lower because while I love her, I miss her being a character with like...feelings and stuff. In S3 and S4 after both we and Baltar knew she definitely was not Caprica, she really changed and we never really saw stuff devastate her like Hera's "death" and Gina and stuff did? I miss that. She was so much more interesting when she was a character rather than an angel-device in his head?
3. Gina! OMG Tricia Helfer's acting. Gina still breaks my heart. It's one of the rare times I've thought a rape storyline was justified and I will love Tricia Helfer forever for fighting to keep her PTSD. I love how you can't hate her, it makes you an asshole. But the show never, ever pretends like she's fixed. I mean, Gina is not on the happy human/cylon OTP train. Gina hates you. She even hates Gaius, even though he's the only person in the world she trusts, he's still a "you". And it's heartbreaking because she was the first time Gaius was so utterly selfless and completely compassionate. And still he said it with nukes, and not enough awareness to realise she wasn't going to be fixed for him; it wasn't about him and their happily-ever-after. It was about "you". And killing you. Even though she loves you. And can't stand that.
2. Natalie! Dude. Natalie. I still hate that she died. I still love that if she was going to have the balls to choose death for everyone, she faced it first. I know it wasn't her choice, but still, somehow, the way she faced it; curious. With integrity. Plus, she unleashed a rebellion of centurions! (I move we make 'a rebellion of centurions' the official collective noun!)
1. Caprica! Like Laura Roslin I've babbled about her in my LJ enough that I probably don't need to anymore. And also like Laura it's her beautiful web of contradictions that own my heart. Namely her capacity for such boundless love and such boundless violence in the same breath. Her ability to denounce her nation without ever denouncing herself as a part of that nation. The way she is fascinated by and falls in love with everything she sees. The way her fingers get into everything, because until she touches it, it might not be real. The way she never, ever, ever stops trying to find things to love and things to love her back, despite having her heart broken more times than most of us could bear. Caprica. <3
Top Five Times I've Hated a Character I Love - for
frolicndetour. 5. Laura Roslin's speech about "home" in Islanded in a Stream of I REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR EXISTENCE! To be fair, this isn't really hatred of Laura Roslin so much as the point at which I realised that this person on the screen wasn't Laura Roslin anymore, because this person? I hated. And man. That hurt. So it needs to be here, but it's number 5 because it's...firstly a crowning moment of fail and perhaps the impressive stuff should be further up, and also because I don't want this moment to "win" anything, even a list of hate.
4. In a similar vein, Chief killing Tory in Daybreak. I still think it's the single most failTACULAR moment in the entire series with regards to women and violence, and the "perfect" capstone to the WTF of Chief's "romantic" storylines. And I just...I wouldn't have been against an exploration of Chief's violent side or even an exploration of domestic violence and vengeance through him, but not in this gross, glorifying way. And that just makes me boil with rage at a character I liked/wanted to like for so long. Seriously, I spent every shot of him after he did that wanting to punch his teeth in so he had a mouth full of blood, and I am not usually a violent person.
3. John Crichton in Natural Election when he calls Aeryn on not having told him the truth at the end and tells her to come back when she has her story straight. WHICH MAKES NO SENSE. See, most people, I think, would have identified the moment he takes the lakka at the end of John Quixote and walks away from her as a moment to hate her (you know, at least people who weren't all, Yeah John! Show her who's boss! Not that I'm bitter...). But I always saw that episode as the moment he formulated his later-revealed-plan to hide how he feels about her from Scorpius because he knows he can't do it on his own. And that's frustrating and stupid but comforting in that it means he wasn't doing it because he actually BELIEVED Aeryn had done something unworthy of forgiveness, and that she somehow had to "make it up to him".
While in NE, I try and try to think about why he's telling D'argo that he's honestly considered that Aeryn's kid wasn't either his or the other him's which basically means he's been wondering if she was cheating on other-him which is, frankly, unworthy of him. Why D'argo is supporting this. Why John is so furious that Aeryn, being scared, tried to confide in her friend about something scary and life changing. Or indeed why, when Aeryn DOES tell him the truth, which she'd been TRYING to do since the start of the episode - so like, the first time we see her after John confronts her on the issue after her return (at the end of Promises), is her trying to tell him everything like he wanted, except circumstances and poisonous plants delay this - why his "get your story straight," thing makes any sense at all? Cus like, she just DID that?
You guys, I don't even know. I get "he was hurt" or whatever, but I think he was acting like a child and therefore it made me kind of hate him and also personally retcon that he was starting to realise he had to hide his feelings from Scorpy even then. :/ (I mean, whole other thing about how he later walks into that trap voluntarily, but, like Laura stealing the election, my heroes doing things completely against my own ethical codes, depending on TV context, etc., might provoke a range of thinky emotions in me from awe to horror to heartbreak, but this is not the same as hate?)
2. Han Solo in the aftermath of Chewie's death. Now we're into the ones where I hate the character but it's a sign of the...rather amazing acting/writing/storytelling. Chewie dies, and Han's first words to his son are a snarl, "You left him!" He's a sixteen year old kid who wants nothing more than to breach the gap between them and tries and tries and his dad sinks into drunkenness and runs away. But there's also something desperately sad about Han's response to Leia's entreaties that he fix this. "He doesn't need me, he's got the Force." Because there's just Han, you know. On his own, in the middle of this family of magicians. I hate him for it. But, you know, I think I'm supposed to. After Anakin gives him a gift that Chewie made for him, and all Han can do is lie and tell Anakin it's going to be all right, and Anakin is like, "What? The war, Chewie being dead, or you leaving and not telling us where you're going to go?" And there's no answer.
1. Gaius Baltar telling Laura she ought to pray with him, because really, the destruction of their species was divinely inspired. Let's just forget the fact that the finale kind of proves him right and concentrate on the amazing, amazing acting on the part of both of them. The pure horror of it. I'm amazed, you guys. It was fantastic. And wow did I hate Gaius right then.
And that's it folks! Sorry it's so long. Y'all know I'm wordy by now. Discussion, thoughts, more top fives are all welcome!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-08-16 07:54 pm (UTC)I love what you wrote about Xena there. I have nothing to add, but you've put something into words I've felt when comparing her to other kick-ass female characters, sometimes even within the show.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 03:36 pm (UTC)The irony might have killed me. Or at the very least caused me to have a breakdown in some paint... :p
I'm glad you liked what I wrote about Xena! I was kind of worried I was making now sense. But yeah, even within the show; compare her to Callisto, for instance. Or later seasons Gabrielle, even.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-16 10:11 pm (UTC)I love what you say about Sarah Connor. Going into the show, I was slightly apprehensive about the whole mother of the savior thing, but you know...if we got the nativity story from Mary's perspective, I think it would be probably be really fucking awesome, you know? And there are the occasional cringe-worthy moments, but overall I think they walk the line really well. Sarah herself is all about drawing lines within the show, and I think the show has to walk a lot of lines with the character on a more external level, and I'm still sort of amazed that I feel like they mostly pulled it off. Like you say, there are six ways for them to fail every single episode, and yet they hardly ever do, and even when they do, it's in pretty minor ways. How could she NOT be a little bit crazy, but it never makes her less relevant or less hardcore or less in charge of everyone.
DAMN YOU, FOX.
Gaius Baltar telling Laura she ought to pray with him, because really, the destruction of their species was divinely inspired.
I wanted her to kill him for a minute. And even when I stopped wanting her to kill him, it wasn't for him, it was for her. And I know I have more negative feelings towards Baltar than, um, probably anyone, but I
neverhardly ever wanted anyone to kill him for it.no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 03:44 pm (UTC)But yes, I agree with you. The show was not always perfect; for instance I still think that having John kill someone for the first time before Sarah was a mistake but I also know that they were directed by the networks to basically turn John into more of an active angsty action-saviour character and I ended up feeling...fairly disconnected to him for the first half of S2 as a result. Not because they made him horrifying or anything. Just because...the focus was veering more to John than Sarah and I could tell and it was more boring. But then in the second half, they really pulled back on that, so even with network interference they ultimately managed to maintain that balance quite well, I think.
To wit, DAMN YOU, FOX.
I wanted her to kill him for a minute.
ME TOO. And again, not really because I wanted Baltar to die but because I would have believed it and because I was so there with her in that moment. I know you never really loved Baltar and perhaps love is a strong word, but I did love the character for how interesting he was, how well they (mostly, until the end) played his massive guilt/massive ego. He was so interesting that really, while I wanted to slap him sometimes (like when he landed everyone on New Caprica because Laura wrote him a mean letter) most of the time I...had empathy for him even when he was being a real piece of work. Even when I thought he was wrong and needed to be stopped or childish or whatever. But here? PURE HORROR.
And yeah, ultimately I was glad Laura saved him for Laura. And also because I think that realising that - as Head Elosha says - it's when it's most difficult to acknowledge someone's right to keep breathing that it's most important, is a far more Laura Roslin type of "love everyone" letter than declaring her love for Adama? Like, she loves all of humanity, and if Elosha is telling her that love is becoming too impersonal, well, even Baltar is part of humanity, and he's the HARDEST one to personalise her love for, but she...does it, and saves him anyway? Cus that is kickass. And stuff! :)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 04:20 am (UTC)For my question:
5. I hated that moment too, but it was more... hating it for what it did to the character, not hating the character. Is it that you compare that Laura Roslin to what she used to be and hate the contrast between the two?
4. Yeah, I can understand that. :/ It's so much worse when you feel the writing is WITH the character doing the thing you find repulsive.
3. Skipping this one, in my completely random pseudo-efforts to remain unspoiled.
2. Oh wow. I'm slightly disconcerted by the thought of Han Solo descending into bitter drunkenness and hating his kids. You mean they didn't live happily ever after? :(
1. Guh. That was a truly amazing moment and yes, let's forget about the fact that the implications were never really addressed on either an individual or mythological level. ;) I wouldn't say it made me hate Gaius, probably because I never really loved him, and actually thought that his even bothering to come up with this elaborate way to justify his own actions was a step up for him. At least it showed the extent of his guilt underneath it all, and I even worried for him when his illusions were inevitably shattered. Except they weren't, were they? Hmph.
I'll read the rest tomorrow, but I wanted to respond to this part anyway. :)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 04:22 pm (UTC)Is it that you compare that Laura Roslin to what she used to be and hate the contrast between the two?
Basically, yes? If you'd asked about being angry with a character I loved, I probably would have given very different answers? Like Laura stealing the election would have been up there for sure? But hating? That's harder. I think if I love a character it takes a lot to make me hate them.
I had a similar reaction to you during "OMGBILL!" stuff from the mutiny - hating what the writers did to the character but not the character. But by the time we got to that "home" conversation there was just this huge realisation that...I wasn't even watching the same person anymore. They'd turned her into a character I hated.
Because there IS a storyarc there; that's the worst thing. It's just that it's reductive, boring, sexist and turns her into the sort of person S1 - 3 Laura would have had nothing but contempt for. Kind of like with Chief; I understand his arc, but it turned him into a total asshole.
3. AAAAH, yes, sorry I totally forgot that you hadn't seen most of the show! *facepalm* ;)
2. I'm assuming from your question you don't mind spoilers? Basically Anakin makes a split second decision (that is correct) to leave Chewie to die because otherwise the ship they're on will be crushed and destroyed and will not only kill him and Han but hundreds of refugees they have on board. Han, meanwhile, is still hanging out the back of the ship desperately trying to drag Chewie onboard. Then the first thing he screams at Anakin after having to watch Chewie die is, "You left him!" Which like, he regrets almost instantly, but can't be unsaid. And then even Anakin's attempts to reach out to his father, Han doesn't know how to respond to because he doesn't know how to fix things, because it can't be unsaid. Tied up with feelings of losing Anakin TOO because he's moving off into Luke's world, doing Jedi things Han can never really be a part of.
The resulting storyline is...actually pretty well handled for something so heartbreakingly horrible and essentially ends up with Han acting like a selfish jerk for a few books and running off on his own, and, through some adventures he has, working out his issues, realising he's been a jerk, and going back home.
But yeah, they do reconcile and stuff's okay afterwards.
You know, until Anakin dies two years later in the line of duty, shattering his twin siblings in opposite directions, and, well, on a metatextual level, destabilising the galaxy in ways that haven't been fully felt, I don't think. /Star Wars EU Meta no one else will understand. ;)
1. At least it showed the extent of his guilt underneath it all, and I even worried for him when his illusions were inevitably shattered. Except they weren't, were they? Hmph.
Interesting! I didn't think it was a step up for him, mostly because I always thought he felt guilty, and felt this was like he'd finally succeeded in finding that excuse he'd always been desperate for. And worse than that it was an excuse that was so deeply rooted in the flaws that Six played on in the first place, (it wasn't my fault! I was CHOSEN!) All I saw was him literally inventing a religion in order to not just forgive himself, but actually make it so he didn't even NEED forgiveness, because he'd never done anything wrong in the first place. That in fact, he was the HERO of the tale? That's what got me; I felt like it was the moment he STOPPED feeling guilty - or at least had finally succeeded in convincing himself of this fact.
I did however feel initially relieved by the moment because I'd spent most of 4.0 vaguely worried we were supposed to be taking Baltarianism seriously as a moral authority and this felt, to me, like a sign that of course we weren't. So, like you, I was wondering when those illusions would be shattered. Except, as you say, they weren't. :(
I'll read the rest tomorrow, but I wanted to respond to this part anyway. :)
I'll look forward to it because i love reading comments from you, but there's no hurry! :)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 04:39 am (UTC)her position as "important because she gave birth to robot fighting Jesus," is inherently precarious in terms of feminism
and this was so good I almost tweeted it, SRSLY.
*MEGAHEARTS*
The way her fingers get into everything...
ahem. >;)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 04:27 pm (UTC)Plus, wait, Lucy Lawless? Spartacus? I AM SO OUT OF TOUCH! I'm sure that this is not the case, but I also hope you realise you have now made me imagine a remake of Spartacus with Xena in the title role. I HOPE YOU FEEL SUITABLY GUILTY since I'm sure I'm doomed to disappointment. :(
*MEGAHEARTS*
:*
ahem. >;)
I don't feel the need to apologise for your filthy brain. :|
:p
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 05:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 05:50 pm (UTC)Becca, didn't you say that the recent movie reduced her to this? At the very least, in the first movie, we knew from Kyle, that Sarah was a goddess-like warrior to the troops who earned their respect on the battlefield as much as John did. T3 killed her off before that could happen and, now that I think about it, it’s even cooler that the show chose to maintain this breast cancer pre-Judgement Day business because it strengthens her character and her role even more, in my eyes. And now it makes me sad that the show is gone because we would have seen where all of her training takes him and how he gets to become JOHN CONNOR, with the interesting twist of being influenced now too by his father and uncle.
Do you really think that Sarah sees herself as a Mother? (Goodness. Why are you making me think! I have a headache dammit!) I think the moment she truly saw herself as his mother and not his guardian and teacher was the moment she let him go with Katherine into the future.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 12:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 04:30 pm (UTC)OMG ILU! THANK YOU! *uses*
IT'S MY NEW FAVOURITE!
And also yes, thank you for not putting that restriction in there, that might have killlllled me. ;)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 04:17 pm (UTC)Adama. Wow. He did not make it into the Hate List. But I understand. Too many moments to choose from. I'm glad he got such coverage in the
dude, wtf?unintentionally hilarious department.Han: awwww I haven't read it, but seems to me like he's in need of a giant hug, not hatred! I've always wondered what it must have been like for him being in that family, surrounded by significant Force-y people. It must have been such a struggle and all he had was Chewie. And while I'm sad that Chewie's death and the circumstances around it made for a bad time for him and Ben, I just can't hate him for it because I understand it. It's not fair that "love your child" is supposed to be some kind of hard and fast rule, so him chosing Chewie over Ben makes him a bad father. I understand why he could be hated, but I think he's a character far more deserving of pity. He gave up the way of life he was used to and loved and got thrown into this hero business and seems like he was just kind of swept along with it all.
Sarah: Similar to Han's requirement to love his son because he's his dad, I liked the way the show delved into Sarah's desire to be an actual mom (ie learning to comfort John and not just be his keeper) and had the other characters, including John, of course, call her on her momliness.
lol @ the foxes and the leoben~paint sex. Yeah that was a scary thing in my mind and I'm so glad the scene was a solo one.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 04:41 pm (UTC)The ONLY reason Adama didn't make the hate list is that it was times I hated a character I loved and really, even though I liked him well enough in S1, I never loved him! ;)
As to Han I don't...really hate hate him there either. Or like...not for ever. It's up so high because, like the moment with Gaius, it's something I was impressed by? I was so angry at him, but at the same time, I understood? It was in character?
Ultimately, the show didn't give me what I wanted for Baltar, but when I originally watched that scene, I fully expected Baltar and his weird religion to get more complex treatment and for that moment to be part of a really impressive and fulfilling arc?
I think the thing that made me hate Han most at that point was...I understood his resentment of Anakin and his guilt at that resentment. I understood his loneliness in a family of Force-users, but at the same time, he was lashing out at people he was supposed to be responsible for even when they were reaching out to him. And...as much as I understood it, and as much as maybe he needed space, and as much as the way he handled it was in character, he handled it really badly and horribly unfairly on several people whom he loved and who loved him and that was...painful to watch?
So I kind of felt like, "POOR HAN!" and "OMG HAN YOU ASSHOLE!" at the same time? It was weird!
Sarah: huh, yeah that's an interesting comparison to raise. I did like how the show pointed out that she was an amazing mom in that she kept John safe but at the same time she was kind of...useless when it came to playing being a mom at that kid they, um, kidnapped and stuff. I mean, I also think that some of the disconnect between John and Sarah in the show was down to external stresses that Sarah could only have overcome if she'd irresponsibly not trained John for future survival, in which case they'd probably both be dead. And I also think given everything John and Sarah are remarkably close. But...yeah. It's an interesting dynamic in the show.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-17 05:35 pm (UTC)It's funny, Xena ought to be described as butch, but I can't bring myself to use the term, even after seeing the episode where she pretends to be a totally prissy princess that looks just like her. They didn't make it so that she was comically unable to pull off all the dainties of a princess. She was just, well she just didn't giggle and smile and nod at stuff and lower her eyes respectfully to the mighty men. And of course, Lucy Lawless had to play the prissy princess dressed as Xena, too, and she was just awesome without being just a caricature.
Han: I totally get what you're saying and I would want to slap him too, but when he finally comes around, assuming he didn't totally ruin all of his relationships, I would be there to give him a hug because I get it. And really, I'm impressed with the writers for taking him down that path and allowing him to stay there because it was very very human and he's a favourite character so it's not kosher to be turning a favourite character into someone loathesome.
And saying that, this is what I had thought to see with Adama. I got the spiral into what he became (as well as Laura's utter abandonment of the presidency), but I don't think the writers (or maybe just EJO) got that. I could appreciate that the weight of humanity was literally on his shoulders and it just got too damn heavy. But there never came that point where he turned around and saw what an asshole he was being. And no one ever called him on it. Or rather, Gaeta did, but no one who could truly slap Bill stood with Gaeta to say hey, maybe you should listen. So in the end, we got a Bill that still thought, through the paint and the foxes, that he was The Old Man.
John: We discussed this in my journal about John's turn here and I wouldn't put him on the list because I never loved him, but he certainly made me not like him even more with this. Even when the truth of his actions was revealed. My hate here would have been Aeryn for feeling she needed to prove herself to him at all and running back into his arms. I am sad at what Aeryn became in the end. She looked so unhappy at the stupid wedding.
Sarah: I don't feel that Sarah ever considered herself John's mom in the standard terms beyond birthing him. I think she saw herself as his guardian and perhaps even made a conscious effort to remove herself from the role of mom because ultimately, his life was more important than hers and she had to make sure that when the shit hit the fan, he would leave her to save himself.
But he never did. Who did John learn compassion from? Is that just his nature? Or did he see through his mom's facade. Because we know that Sarah was a wonderful, loving, innocent woman before Kyle popped into her life...
I felt the show was making the effort to teach Sarah how to stop being his guardian and to trust others to do so instead, and become his mom, because ultimately, it wasn't John's Uber Soldieriness that made people follow him. it was this compassion. Which now makes Derek's words to (oh what's her name??? *forgets*) hsi ex even more meaningful: "John Connor let you live."
Part II
Date: 2009-08-17 06:47 pm (UTC)YES, I know exactly what you mean. I never watched more than a couple of episodes of Xena, but she definitely had that. And even though she's probably more girly than Xena, that's really why I was so excited by Kara the first time I saw BSG. She actually looked like she could throw a punch and it would hurt, and her uniform wasn't ridiculously sexualized or molded to her body. <3 And Ivanova is definitely from the same mold. Sorry, Star Trek ladies.
I still can't decide if the similarities with that Leoben sex scene were intentional or not. I mean, I can't believe that they were, but equally, how could it not be? O_O
I'm guessing the thought was something like both he and Kara were trying to cover up/hide from the inevitable and the Leoben bit hilariously never occured to them. Well, since Adama is a guy, why would they have the giving in to the inevitable part symbolized by sex with a former captor? :D
Bill Adama: FOXES! FOXES! SHOOT ME SAUL, I'M GOING TO SAY CRUDE THINGS ABOUT YOUR WIFE! MY SON'S WIFE DIED SO I MADE IT ALL ABOUT ME, AND NOW IT'S YOUR TURN! FOOOOOOOXESSSSSSS!
I cannot ever hear about that scene without picturing a pair of bewildered stuffed animals getting increasingly uneasy and then fleeing for their lives. HEE.
I will never ever get over the fact that either he got himself THAT drunk and drooling in 15 minutes, or he was busy getting that drunk and drooling while D'Anna was AIRLOCKING HOSTAGES.
Hee, now I won't either. ;)
In S3 and S4 after both we and Baltar knew she definitely was not Caprica, she really changed and we never really saw stuff devastate her like Hera's "death" and Gina and stuff did?
*nod nod* I guess that can be fanwanked as Head-Six taking on aspects of Caprica in order to better manipulate Gaius, but yeah, she became much flatter as the real Caprica became more of a character. Ah well.
Re: Part II
Date: 2009-08-18 05:52 pm (UTC)Certainly I know that 97% of fandom disgaree with me, but I miss the mini series hair! XD
Well, since Adama is a guy, why would they have the giving in to the inevitable part symbolized by sex with a former captor? :D
*facepalm* Indeed. *sigh*
Although with all the endless banging on about how much Adama loved the ship and how the ship was BECOMING A CYLON and how Laura and THE SHIP were his "ladies" I'm surprised he didn't start humping the wall. o_O
I cannot ever hear about that scene without picturing a pair of bewildered stuffed animals getting increasingly uneasy and then fleeing for their lives. HEE.
Awwww. Hee! <3
*nod nod* I guess that can be fanwanked as Head-Six taking on aspects of Caprica in order to better manipulate Gaius, but yeah, she became much flatter as the real Caprica became more of a character. Ah well.
Well I totally think it can be fanwanked, yeah. Even if Head Six isn't purely created by Baltar, she certainly exists to manipulate him and thus it makes sense that she's playing into his belief that she really is the woman he (wouldn't admit he) loved.
So I really think it makes perfect sense that once he meets Caprica again, Head Six takes on a more angelic role because either Gaius' subconscious or Head Six herself will go in that direction since it's now obvious she can't actually be Caprica.
Which is all well and good it's just...either they could have made her a more interesting angel, or they could have admitted that they were simplifying Head Six because Caprica was becoming more dynamic and then...you know, given screen time to Caprica. While instead, they kept the same allocation of screen time for Head Six but...she was nowhere near as fascinating.
By S4 they understood that, but again, filled out the Six screentime with new Sixes instead of Caprica. With Natalie this worked well, but neither Lida nor Sonja really got a chance to be at all developed.