Girls Do Too Like Comics! I Just Proved It!

[beccatoria]

So, something awesome happened today that I am going to share with YOU, interwebs, because I love you.

A friend's been dating this awesome person for a while which is great, because when your friends date awesome people, you get to make new awesome friends. Now, this person is pretty quiet, likes to listen to everyone else more than to herself, but from a few comments, I knew that she wasn't really a big fan of comics, they made her kinda uncomfortable - I am pretty sure she classed them in the same category as lad's mags other stuff that's basically porn you can read on the train. Like I said, she's a quiet person, a few comments from her constituted a forceful opinion.

The thing that's interesting to me about this, though, is that her opinion wasn't formed in a vacuum. It's not like she had a media stereotype in her head. The guy she's dating - our friend - reads a lot of comics we lend him and doesn't read a huge amount of books beyond that. I haaaate gratuitous cheesecake and shitty depictions of women in mainstream cape books, and the books our mate was reading reflect that - but we were mostly lending him mainstream cape books, and it made me realise how numbed I am to how they look.

And damn, man, it just made me sad. And also nostalgic for those days when I didn't really read cape books, I read whatever trades were available at the library because I was a broke teenage girl and didn't even know where the local comic shop was. And honestly, it's rose-tinted spectacles of enormity if I say that none of that shit made me uncomfortable or made me wonder why I was reading it or didn't have shitty depictions of women - not to mention how confusing it is to read like ONE trade from near the end of Marvelman, because hell if I knew what order things were sposed to be in - but...that's when I fell in love with the medium, even though I spent the ten years after that wandering in and out.

And I wanted to do that for my new friend. So when it was her birthday, just recently, I thought to myself, fuck it. I am going to buy her a comic. I am going to buy her a comic that a) features a woman as a main character, b) is not drawn in an exploitative manner (and that will be defined broadly), and c) is self-contained.

So first I went and got depressed at how difficult this was. I basically had to write off superhero stuff entirely except for possibly Batwoman but I felt even that had too many ties to the wider DCU to be an easy entry point and besides, I wanted to show her that it's not all a genre where spandex is an entry requirement.

In the end I settled on the first volume of Fables. When I gave it to her I said, more or less, "this is a comic that will not make you feel like you need a shower." I honestly thought that would be an end to it - perhaps I'd get a polite "Oh, it was fun!" in a few weeks. I honestly suspected it might sit on her shelf gathering dust forever, and I would not have judged her for it.

Instead, I started getting texts about how much she liked it - how easy it was to read, how she wasn't expecting to be so engrossed she finished it in one sitting, how much fun it was and what should she read next.

Today she dragged her boyfriend shopping for new comics; I got a panicked text from him - they didn't have the next Fables! What did I suggest instead! - I missed out on answering because I was at my new job where I'm still nervous enough I don't let myself check my phone unless I'm on break - but apparently she bought the first volume of Madame Xanadu because she thought it looked cool.

And that's my story, interwebs. Just one more of the million examples of how it's not that chicks don't dig comics, they just don't dig exploitation.

Comments

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Re: Fables - first off, no worries about harshing my squee. I WANT to talk about it, and a good portion of my fascination with the series is the conflicting messages I keep getting from it. Unfortunately, having FOUND YOU to babble at about it, I'm now going to inflict a double-comment on you. Fables first, then Other Comics. I know I'm throwing a wall of text at you - no worries if you don't have time to respond. :)

I actually clocked the guy was probably a republican from the anti social welfare state stuff Snow was spouting to Beauty and the Beast in the first few pages of the first issue and that left me with an impression of Snow as a social conservative and had that tied to her obvious traditionalist tendencies - in turn tied to her privileged longevity - pretty much from the get go. Which didn't mean I didn't roll my eyes something fierce when I read the prolife stuff, it just meant...it wasn't a complete shock to me, more a confirmation of something I already suspected.

I have very mixed feelings about the Arabian fables whereby I think tonedeafness to the fact stereotyping the fairytales of a culture you have a history of oppression with is not the same as doing it to your own, but on the other hand, the baldness of the Israel vs Arab Nations analogy in the war between Fabletown and the Empire meant that if they hadn't had the actual Arab Nations there as Fabletown's equal partner in the war, without whom they would not have won it, that analogy would have been even weirder and more uncomfortable.

I think that reading it fairly quickly, I always had an opinion of the series having a huge rotating cast, but I do agree that it started out with more of a focus on the women which then shifted to the guys during the war and I gave them leeway on that for a fair while because I adore Blue Boy and it was really his story, but if I'd been stuck for...well years really, reading that rather than over a few months, and not knowing the balance would shift back (or at least somewhat back), I might well have experienced similar frustration. Hell I still might if it does it again. Right now, though, Ozma's getting more page time, Rose Red's getting a Destiny set up, Very Interesting Stuff is happening with Snow's daughter, Winter, and another of her daughters, Therese, looks to be the star of the next arc, not to mention the stuff with Totenkinder.

I'm honestly unsure whether I'd recommend you go back to it. You quit for good reasons and I don't know that any of the underlying issues are fixed. But if you don't mind spoilers, I did have some thoughts on Totenkinder and her role here (http://beccatoria.livejournal.com/161689.html), chiefly musings on my complete fascination with the fact that Willingham, who is clearly pro-life, has pitted a witch who is literally powered by abortion against a nation that is literally powered by creating infinite children, and we're supposed to be on the side of the witch. I just. Mind. Blown. So. Confused.

Um, long story short, I'm happy to talk about it. I'm just confused that I love so much something that is clearly so problematic in certain respects, and created by a guy I'm fairly sure I'd hate if I met in real life. And then I think to myself, is this what it's like to be a fan of Supernatural? O.O

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

Oh, never worry about walls-of-text with me; I tend to be more wordy than most people, so.

I think I was generally a lot less...politically aware in terms of non-feminist issues at the time I read it so that's not something I either caught or remember? But also, um, I realize that a lot of characters I like tend to be socially/financially privileged people with those views. Doesn't mean that I don't see their issues, just that...I sort of really have a thing for women aware of their advantages and willing to use them (since fiction SO often throws women at us that we're supposed to like because we feel bad for them. Sympathy (rather than admiration, as is the case with male characters) as the main point of connection with female characters). Sigh, I just get really iffy over heroines I consider to be feminist spouting anti-women stuff. I LOVE LAURA ROSLIN, but I still haven't forgiven her for passing pro-life laws. I mean, I know *she* is pro-choice and did it for the FUTURE. But her reasons seemed very short-sighted and badly researched, so I am bitter (oh, the days when that was my biggest issue with BSG.;)

The rotating cast of "Fables" probably also made it easier for me to drop it because by the time things were starting to offend me, characters I liked were also being shifted to the background. But Snow White running Fabletown was a huge point of investment for me, as was the Snow/Bigby relationship before it became something where Snow was promising to love and OBEY him, sigh. And then Beauty never really took over to that extent.

I appreciate the involvement of Arabian Fables in the Fabletown war, but I wish their characterization had not been reduced to a joke. I could've overlooked them? But my main issues with that is that I was very disturbed by how "Fables" took one of the most feminist fairy tales featuring a woman of color and rewrote that story to feature Snow in her place. And instead of writing the WoC out entirely, rewrote her back into the story in such a way that Snow becomes her mentor/teacher, so her agency/story is TAKEN away and given to a white woman, who then is placed in a position where she can teach a woman of color something she should already know. GAH. It really brought the weird race/gender intersectionality/hierarchy issues to the surface for me, and it was very uncomfortable. And then it made me realize how all of the fairy tales, regardless of their origins, were now populated with white people.

BUT. I am actually glad you discovered "Fables." I actually almost recommended it to you a while back when you started posting about your love for "Once Upon a Time." Not that they're the same in any way, but because you read comics and "Fables" is a superior and more deconstructive take on fairy tales. But I am always reluctant in reccing things that may have failed in some areas because I somehow feel that their failings reflects MY FAIL in liking them. *headdesk*

I don't know ANYTHING about the writer in the real life except for his politics that come across on the page and that he said that he wanted to GUN DOWN the fangirls demanding Stephanie Brown's resurrection. Which, GAH. Given how much Stephanie Brown has sort of become the symbol of feminism within the comics community, that's just more disdain directed our way. I *really* hate him.

And then I think to myself, is this what it's like to be a fan of Supernatural? O.O
*dies* I...don't think "Supernatural" *has* any positive qualities? This is probably closer to being a fan of "The Vampire Diaries?" Where there are lots of women who are awesome, but it's so, so deeply problematic that you wonder why you're still watching despite all the issues.

I am saving the Totenkinder post to read when I am a bit more awake. :)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yay walls of text! :D

I was more aware of the politics because I've lived in Wales most of my life, but my mother is actually American so UK/US cultural difference ping me more. The first issue opens with Snow refusing to help Beauty and the Beast by paying for marriage counseling so he can look human again and avoid moving to the farm, and says they can't afford it but if they could she wouldn't do it because they're not like the mundanes and don't look to the government to solve their problems and attitudes to the social state is another of those transatlantic culture shock issues.

I'm not sure this is a point at which I'd say that Snow is expressing views typical of heroines I like, but I do very much empathise with falling in love with the sorts of women who will use the power given them or that they've managed to claim, even if the power structures are problematic simply because claiming their place within them becomes revolutionary. Regarding Laura Roslin, I was...so frustrated with that storyline mainly because I felt it was stupid. Baltar gave nonsensical reasons. And if they'd managed to give sensible reasons, and still had my (at the time) favourite fictional character doing something I found ethically abhorrent, and she found ethically abhorrent, man, that would have been amazing and complicated and a sharp look at the dangers of democracy despite it being the best option we have because at that point, I would have turned around and voted for Baltar too.

But as you say: WOULD THAT THAT WERE OUR GREATEST QUARREL WITH THAT SHOW.

(Oh also yes: oldskool wedding vows = whut & ick, Snow, whut & ick.)

Regarding the Arabian Fables, yeah, there's a difference between the structure of their inclusion and the individual execution of it. Although I did enjoy Sinbad for the most part - I thought his eeeeeeevil caricature of an adviser was far more concerning, though it's an area I don't feel I'm educated enough in all the various stereotypes and tropes to really comment comprehensively on? I did wonder, while reading it, what I would make of it if I were more familiar with the crap that tends to go with Western attitudes to Arabian culture. Along those lines, I have to confess, the issues around Scheherezade in 1001 Nights of Snowfall actually went right over my head as I never had anything more than a very, very passing familiarity with her, and so I clocked that the entire concept of recasting Snow in the role was potentially problematic, but not quite the degree to which Scheherezade was a fairly radically feminist figure in her own story. I googled her before replying, however, and think I get it a bit better now. :(

Regarding the overwhelming whiteness of the Fabletown population, I think I would have been okay with that (given they do clarify that there are many homelands, often tied to the nations that originally told their stories in the mundy world) if only the author had included more of the other fable communities in the story, but that never really happens, even after their treaty with the Arabian Fables.

I agree with you that Once Upon A Time and Fables are very different. I also at the moment agree that Fables is better, although I think they're doing some significantly different things and I'm not quite sure that Once is attempting to deconstruct in the same way that - at least early Fables - quite clearly had as a goal? I...have very unformed thoughts on this that I wish would form better so that I could make a post about them. :/

Re: Willingham: I didn't know he said that and yes, Ugh. My decision to find out nothing about him definitely appears to be the correct one.

I TRIED to watch the Vampire Diaries once and failed! But it was just a random episode that was on TV and I didn't understand what was going on... But I will definitely take any analogy over Supernatural! :p

Hope you enjoy the Totenkinder post whenever you get a chance to get around to it. :)

(Also - meant to reply to your other comment this evening but have run out of time! Hopefully tomorrow!)

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeaaah, that would've totally gone over my head back then. Or, at the very least, it wasn't an issue that would've really made an impression on me. And yes, to all of that bit on Laura Roslin. I have loved fictional women whose politics and pretty much EVERYTHING else I strongly disagreed with because they were written well and were unconventional. But Laura is someone we *do* agree with, but that whole arc was just so badly handled and not at all researched in terms of the actual issues, WHICH LAURA WOULD KNOW BEING PRO-CHOICE, gah! Also, um, historically, programs that reward people for having babies work a lot better than outlawing abortions on increasing numbers. BUT OF COURSE, I think they're stupid in wanting to increase the numbers while ON THE RUN AND ON LIMITED SUPPLIES. Okay, um, apparently, I still have some unresolved issues there.

On Arabian Fables, I enjoyed Sinbad, and Aladdin. I specifically think they were more iffy towards the writing of women than the men (and there's a definite race/gender hierarchy/intersectionality issues going on). I did some meta on that arc (and specifically on the issues involved in erasing Scheherezade from her own story) here, if you're interested.

Even with the premise that there are multiple homelands, many of the Fairy tale characters that "Fables" is claiming as its own are actually from stories that originated in different parts of the world. But yeah, all the race issues are very, very iffy.

You will not be surprised to learn that "Once Upon a Time" frustrates me in the same capacity at its treatment of race. I don't find it to be deconstructive at all, but you're free to convince me otherwise! I am watching it, but I have been very iffy on some of the choices they're making, especially the very black/white view of morality it seems to take, which is, I admit, very fairy tale-y, but it's frustrating. But like yours, my thoughts on this show are mostly...unformed. There are things I like, and then things that I really don't, and I am not sure exactly what they're trying to do, and most importantly, um, I don't trust the writers. Which makes it harder for me to connect with the characters.

I have a weird relationship with "Vampire Diaries," where I grew up reading the insanely women-positive books by the writer, so I am attached, but oh god, the show's opening line pretty much starts with the male protagonist going "THIS IS MY STORY." When the books were entirely in Elena's POV and very heavily focused on her friendships with other women. What the show DID have going for it was its multiple characters of color, and then it killed them all at the end of the season and continues this tread. Be glad you're not watching.

I promise that I *do* have good things to say about "Fables," too, and reading your Totenkinder post reminded me of some of it. I am hopefully going to find the time later today to do so. :)

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

WHY ARE COMMENTS NOT BIGGER, okay, condensing! :D

Yes, I too wondered why they wanted to have a baby boom while on the run with NO FOOD, LIKE AT ONE POINT THEY ACTUALLY RUN OUT OF FOOD. It's why I also always never bought those arguments some fans used to bring up early on that they should have brutally only taken those most likely to survive with them, ditching old people and kids and stuff because, well basically that only works if you know you're going to find a safe place right around the corner and restart; if you're going to be living for years, possibly more than a generation on a ship, you need a staggered population.

Honestly, they pretty much did nothing WITH the Arabian Fables women except...dress them up and let them be oppressed. :( I have some thoughts on this and the widening of the Fables world with new creators, but I will respond over on the Totenkinder thread.

Thanks for the information about Scheherezade! I never knew that - I never knew that her sister was such an integral part of her story. That's both fantastic, fascinating and yes, sad that it's gone. Especially since, while not free of potential problems, a far more interesting reimagination of the tale would have been for Snow to somehow take on the role of the sister/supporting female character so that it would still have been a tale about two women and a plan. Perhaps if Scherezade were still the bride, but colluded with Snow so that, in her role as ambassador, Snow asked to hear one final tale from Scherezade before such tales could no longer be heard. It's so sad when stories are so...wasteful of such great potential. :(

I'm honestly not sure what to say about Once Upon A Time. I don't really think that it is trying to be deconstructionist? I mean, sure, I guess it is on the level that there are attempts to make both Rumplestiltskin and Regina characters with reasons to be evil rather than cartoon characters and we have a more modern narrative structure. But I feel those are more concessions to our current storytelling mores rather than deliberate commentary on the nature of a fairytale. I think what Once Upon A Time is doing is...telling fairystories.

I think it's trying to modernise without criticising, rather than rebuilding through critical deconstruction. I want to believe that what it's trying to do is possible, but I waver wildly on how successfully it's achieving it. Its record on pretty much all issues save gender issues is abysmal. I had fairly high opinions of the way it had three female leads with complex relationships with each other on multiple levels, and I still really appreciate that, but I'm starting to seriously pissed at the way the fallout from Mary Margaret and David's affair is blowing back solely onto her in ways that can't be solely explained by the Mayor's personal vendetta and secret can of red spray paint.

Finally! I didn't even know the Vampire Diaries WERE a series of books. If they were pre-Twilight, I bet the author is seriously annoyed they missed the moment... ;)

And as I said, no worries on Fables. I'm enjoying it a lot right now, but I don't think it needs to be cocooned away from criticism, particularly not the criticism it's fairly obviously earned. My opinions may not be as harshly critical as yours on some issues, but I have the benefit of different OTCs, and a longer run where I got to power through more of the stuff I found distasteful and find more stuff I enjoyed. Plus, never, ever get me started on Jack of Fables! :p