Dragon Age 2: I done finished it

[beccatoria]

I wish I had insightful things to say because I feel there are insightful things to say, but mostly I'm left going Hmmm.

It was all right. It was sorta weird. In a "good idea, weird execution" kind of way. I guess that's it really. I get the perfect storm of personalities and coincidences thing; we just accidentally assassinated Archduke Ferdinand and all. But the game sort of made me feel like the Templars' position was psychopathic and the only way they had of balancing it out was playing the "tragically driven to blood magic!" card every time a mage came up. It got repetitive and felt frustrating and manipulative instead of complex. Which is a shame because I think the set up could be complex. If Meredith had had good answers for my accusations, for instance. Honestly I also thought the Qunari were not handled well - again I struggled to find redeeming features in their philosophy. They felt like noble savage stereotypes with dialogue designed to sound deep but actually mostly being a bunch of circular conversations with unfamiliar nouns thrown in.

I heard some folks were upset that it wasn't as wide-ranging as DA:O. That didn't really bother me because I think I could have been happy with a game that focused on building up a single location and the epic coming through the passage of time and the personal character journey from indentured servant to king of the hill. So I was sort of annoyed that at the end, you have to flee and no one knows what's up with you - I think that's a better ending if you've just achieved the awesome thing not if you just started the revolution. Couldn't I have been like, leading the Mage Armies or something? Plus, dudes, wtf happened to Bethany! There was no picture of her in the epilogue like the others; I hope she's okay.

On the other hand, there was a lot of fun stuff in this too. The characters were great, and I honestly felt so absolutely furious and betrayed by Anders' Chantry stunt that I sat there for about five minutes desperately looking for reasons why I could spare him and couldn't. So I killed him. And I was 100% totally and completely pro-mage. But as far as I could tell, in addition to murdering a church of innocent folks and destroying the last chance at preventing a bloodbath, he succeeded at nothing except giving Meredith and future templars a freaking defense for her insanity. All he did was make a group anyone with a shred of objectivity would feel sympathy for, and make them look like a group of terrorists who bomb churches. I would have started the revolution anyway, but now it is, and always will be, tainted and ugly. And yeah, on a personal level, I was so genuinely hurt - like as me, the player, sat there - that I'd done nothing but unconditionally support him, and he coldly manipulated me into an act of murder, and a stupid act of murder at that. I'm not sure a game has ever made me feel that immersively furious with a character, which I suppose, is a fairly impressive achievement.

AND THEN HILARIOUSLY, right afterwards, I went up to chat to Sebastian and he was all, "Did Anders ever tell you what he wanted in the Chantry?" because they didn't update their ambient dialogue for the final bit. NO SEBASTIAN, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE DONE. *facepalm*

And then I killed Fenris, who was my love interest, but Varric STILL said at the end that all my companions went their separate ways, EXCEPT FOR FENRIS. So...I guess I'm dragging his corpse around the Free Marches?

...yay?

Comments

[laura47.livejournal.com]

I didn't know you could kill fenris!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well I did! I was romancing him but he was also my rival, which was sort of bizarre and entertaining. Like when he showed up to my house all angry and I NEED YOU BUT I HATE YOU RARGH PLEASE TELL ME TO GO. And I'm like, nooooo, this is far more amusing, c'mere baby.

So I sided with the Mages, he refused, told me I'd die and couldn't win, I was like, "Spose it's too much to ask you to die by my side?" and his response, verbatim, was, "Yes. It is." Which I probably found funnier than I should have. Anyway, later on when I'm fighting in the Gallows, he shows up for a showdown and you can't talk him down then either, so I done killed him. Well actually Bethany killed him, but she probably just wanted to spare me the guilt...

Looking it up on the wiki, apparently he wouldn't stick with me because I didn't have 100% rivalry with him. If he's your rival he'll always turn against you if you don't have the rivalry maxed out. I was sort of expecting Sebastian to turn on me too, but he didn't, I think because I killed Anders and he was more friend than rival (through no real intention of mine, I was planning on trolling him, but I kept accidentally being nice to him instead...)

[laura47.livejournal.com]

When I started playing i.didn't understand that rivalry w.as a valid choice, so I wound up 100% friend with everyone. Thos required a looooot of wiki use and save file shenanigans with.fenris, given how pro-mage I was. I'm going to explore rivalries in my.second playthrough

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there were one or two moments where I was like, "Wait, no, I'm not getting rivalry with you for that, I'ma reload dammit!" but mostly I found it interesting what they reacted to and managed to get 100% friend with everyone by the end (though Aveline took me until nearly all the way through Act 3 because I kept Doing Crime in front of her...) except Fenris (pro!mage and well, it was amusing), with whom I could easily have gotten 100% rival, I think, if I'd taken him out more, but I generally left him sulking in his house until he stormily stormed into MY house demanding I release his heart from such terrible enslavement. Well I'm not sure he said that. Maybe that was in one of Varric's books, but it was suitably, amusingly angst-ridden! I also ended up with like, vague amounts of friendship with Sebastian, but again I didn't take him out much or really try on either front to please/annoy him. So I think he'd be the hardest one to max out simply by playing through and taking on a reasonable number of quests, but that's a guess?

It's interesting though! I'm kind of curious to see what the rivalries with other characters are like, but also, I don't know if I could live with myself for making most of them hate me. ISABELA. VARRIC. AVELINE. MOSTLY SORT OF MERRILL MAYBE. MY PRECIOUS HILARIOUS BABIES.

I did exactly what you did in KOTOR2 though - I don't know if you ever played that? An early game with an approval system. But it was rushed and there weren't enough places, really, to get approval, so if you screwed up even one, you couldn't get the cool "train them as a Jedi," unlocks further down the line, or a lot of their dialogue. If I recall correctly, one of the characters was even screwed up so it was IMPOSSIBLE to get their final dialogue which was...sucky. I'm always paranoid that, "NOES WHAT IF I MISS SOMETHING AWESOME!"

I was also like that in the first Dragon Age game, but I had the DLC where you can just give them those special comedy gifts that give them like +50 friendship immediately, that Bodan sells you in the camp, so I just gave everyone those and then didn't have any trouble. Though I did have to keep showering Morrigan with gifts so that she'd forgive my benevolent ways; not having her in the party was NOT AN OPTION, clearly. :p

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

Are you the only other person on my friendslist who was underwhelmed by the themes of Dragon Age 2? I think you are! <3

And, I think that your thoughts are pretty much exactly as mine. I feel like I have the POTENTIAL to love more characters here (as opposed to my OTCing of Morrigan blinding me to the existence of everyone else in the first game to a large extent), but my opinions of them remain the same through repeated playthroughs, whereas, with DAO, both Leliana and Anora have grown on me a LOT since I first played the game because I have learned new things about them since the first playthrough.

With DA2, the entire structure of having dialogue be initiated by plot just really, REALLY bugs me. I wanted to know more about Isabela! And just bug her with questions like I did Morrigan, but alas, this game disappointed me there. And possibly annoy Fenris with questions the way I did Morrigan, because snarky answers are always fun.

I somehow keep accidentally romancing Fenris, I don't even understand HOW. But the Fenris romance is the most epically emo romance ever. Although the Anders romance is pretty high on the list as well.

My initial reaction to Anders was exactly the same during the first playthrough, where I did kill him, but it HURT, and I didn't want to. But there really was no other way around it after what he did. And now I feel like I am PUNISHING him for it in advance for my second playthrough? And he's kind of weirdly creepy now I am interacting with him keeping in mind what he ends up doing. I think he might have threatened me when I refused to let him move in with me after we had sex! But I appreciate that his weird, creepy intensity is there and possibly something you don't notice until he does what he does?

I have a lot of issues with the way the Mage vs. Templars thing is portrayed here. Although, during Wiscon, I found out that there are ACTUAL people who side with the Templars and see their POV as a valid one. I always assumed that the siding with the Templars option is there as a way of trolling the game? But I do feel cheated by the game that pretty much EVERY mage we meet ends up proving the Templars right by turning to blood magic and then becoming possessed? It DOES feel like the game is trying to make Siding with the Templars a halfway valid choice.

And the whole Qunari thing feels similarly all over the place, and I am very iffy on the whole noble savages stereotype, as well David Gaider's comments.

And the one thing the fandom DOES complain about, the lack of new places to explore, is actually part of what makes DA2 funner to play for me even though I love DAO so much better because I am not spending half of the time running around, getting lost. I just wish that since they were staying in the same place, we had gotten some more development on the city itself in terms of background, characters, and a more consistent FEEL of a place, if that makes any sense? Like, why couldn't we have met Meredith earlier on, and possibly gotten to know her more before everything started going wrong, for instance? They really could've used the setting to their advantage, but I don't think the game really even realizes that.

So...I guess I'm dragging his corpse around the Free Marches?

I am amused by how Fenris wouldn't stick by you for the final battle, but his ghost will apparently FOREVER FOLLOW YOU. Also, I giggled reading the comments above about how the entire Fenris episode played out (so epically emo!). The first time I played it, I had NO idea I could have rivalmances, which would've made my world a better place for all the potential game hatesex. ;) And possibly, Bethany killing Fenris makes me ship them harder than I already do, so I should really try that option for this playthrough.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I am?! Man, that makes me...a little sad, I thought people in general didn't find the game as satisfying as DA:O. Then again I guess maybe that was down to the maps, like you said, and...stuff not pertaining to shoddy themework? I agree that my problem wasn't with the setting, though I did think it was lazy to not even block off the sections of the map you couldn't go to and I did find it monotonous when every "dungeon" had the same layout, but I liked the familiar locations in and around Kirkwall a lot. As you say, the main problem was not doing enough with the concept of a set location rather than setting a game in one location in itself.

Leliana's a character that grew on me over time too. I was sort of...unconvinced by her when she showed up. But I ended up in a relationship with her, pretty much by accident, because I was flirting with EVERYONE but she was the one it took me the longest to get to agree to sleep with me, so I got, err, "stuck" with her. But I think it was probably the best outcome because it made me pay more attention to her and it turned out she was actually pretty interesting and complicated. Taking her to the shrine of Andraste's ashes after I'd been kind of brutal to her about her religion and past, was...really interesting because that ghost dude basically tells her that she's full of it. Which is why I was confused to see her working for the Pope in DA2. Headcanon has it that she's just using them to find the Warden.

I wasn't totally annoyed by the initiating dialogue through plot thing because I sort of liked being able to go talk to people when they were ready to say something, not constantly having to run through the same autodialogue only to find no new options available, but I can see that narratively it would make them seem quite cold to you. "Oh hey, I want something, now we can talk!"

That's an interesting point about Anders and playing through knowing what he does, actually. I now sort of have a greater motivation to replay so I can see that. I meant what I said - I hate that he tricked me, but...the game really and honestly did trick me and if it characterised him so well I didn't see something that was genuinely there, then that's an achievement. The frustrating thing is, his arc makes for a much, much more painful and ambiguous and compelling story of what can happen when a mage gets possessed by a demon than OH MY GOD BLOOD MAGIC GIANT MONSTER ARGH, you know? Because he actually tricked you, and it actually was a tragedy that went unnoticed until it was too late. Bah.

UGH THE QUNARI. I probably don't even want to know what those comments were! I think the thing that bothers me, aside from the noble savage stereotype, is just that there's this assumption that I'll go along with the idea that there's something honourable or redemptive about their lifestyle? When really it seems like the answer to why I should find anything remotely acceptable about a culture that enforces class and gender barriers with a rigidity that involves death and, in the case of mages, inhuman mental and physical barbarism, is, "but, but, ANGSTY MANLY SPARTAN PSEUDOPHILOSOPHY!"

I don't know if you played the Felicia Day DLC? But I was really angry there was no option to refuse to allow her to leave with the list of spies. I don't want to be vindictive or cruel, but when I played that game, the Arishok was in the middle of my city, casually debating conquering it and my sister was in the tower and I'd just seen what the Qun do to their mages. Why would I ever help him? But even though I told Tallis I couldn't help her if she didn't give me more information, I still got railroaded into it by the game.

The point is, they're...sketchy noble savage stereotypes and oppression-is-cool-if-it's-spiritual/culturally exoticised stereotypes rolled into one and I just...they make my skin twitch. *throws temper tantrum* :p

So to end on something less ragey! LOLZ YOU SHIP BETHANY/FENRIS! I don't. Because I ship Me/Stomping On Fenris Broken Heart, but I totally ship Bethany/Isabela for reasons I can't quite articulate but am sure are unassailable!

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

I think people generally prefer DAO, but they seem to find issues with things that I was mostly indifferent to and like things that I am iffy on. But for some reason, everyone I have managed to talk into playing these games has ended up BETRAYING me by preferring DAII and its themes. Which, well, are interesting, yes, but the game cheats a lot with them, which makes me less charitable in my critique.

I...could probably go on forever about Leliana and all of her weird complexities, but I think that Leliana really WANTS to believe all of the lies that she tells the warden? (Which makes her such a perfect contrast to Morrigan, in particular, because Morrigan is the same in terms of presenting a front that's not entirely her, but, I love how as Leliana seems to get more and more complicated and harsher, Morrigan gets more vulnerable. I possibly ship them a lot.) And then I absolutely love how she randomly shows up as a nunja and then as a socialite in MoTA, but it really brings home the fact that Leliana is just incredibly awesome at what she does, and what she does is MESS with people's brain by playing to their ideas of what she should be and using their underestimation to her advantage. So, YES, definitely using the Divine to find the Warden.

On Anders...I am not sure the game wants me to seeee him as creepy (even though the hints to his brand of crazy seem to be there on the second playthrough.) Like, it's a lot of standard romance tropes that I generally find creepy but the narrative tends to see as romantic. I didn't really romance him the first time around, but this time, I am rivaling him, and he keeps trying to be creepy with lines like "I don't know if i want to kiss you or KILL you." WHICH KILLED ME DEAD. And similar emo-romantic creepy dialogue that has me giggling and being creeped out by him.
The point is, they're...sketchy noble savage stereotypes and oppression-is-cool-if-it's-spiritual/culturally exoticised stereotypes rolled into one and I just...they make my skin twitch. *throws temper tantrum* :p

THAT. There's just a lot of narrative manipulation there that makes me uncomfortable, and Mark of the Assassin is a good example of that. I chose not to help Tallis too, only to get roped into doing it anyway, so that felt a bit like cheating. And OH, I never thought of the Qunari as Spartans, but that's a VERY good comparison. Now I'll hope for the next game to focus on the Qunari women who are hopefully as epic as the Spartan women. I...almost feel like just SEEING some Qunari women would go a long way towards making me give a fuck about the Qunari? But right now, I am mostly bored by their male-dominated culture and the way DA narrative has made its women invisible.

Because I ship Me/Stomping On Fenris Broken Heart, but I totally ship Bethany/Isabela for reasons I can't quite articulate but am sure are unassailable!

Bethany/Fenris kind of interests me in that same context? Bethany, who is generally sweet and nice, is considerably snarky towards Fenris. And Fenris, who hates ALL mages, responds to Bethany's obvious disdain for him by...flirting with her. And liking her. Fenris' weird masochist tendencies amuse me, I admit.

But yes, Bethany/Isabela is epically awesome and may be the best thing ever. I am very attached to Warden!Bethany, but I may have to send her to the Circle just once so I can get the banter about Isabela sending her smutty books and Bethany missing her because OH GOD YES. <3 I do think it's all the insanely shippy banter between them that makes them so epic. Because honestly, I can't imagine that someone wasn't shipping them on the writing team. And I, too, wish that I could articulate my love for them better than just the flaily squee over all the subtext. <3

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

...I just realised I forgot to even respond to the revelation that some people take the side of the templars. I think my brain refused to compute that information because...just...why? I mean, really. Why? Why would you go there? I don't even.

I mean the worst bit is I can imagine a past where it seemed more reasonable, where Mages weren't restricted to the towers, where they could see friends and family, live, love, be free, where the templars are intended to be their guardians, friends and protectors. Live here, where we can keep you safe and you can support each other, and, if the worst happens, if we have to kill you because you're not you anymore, a friend you've known your whole life, someone who loves you, will be the one to do it. And I could see how, over time, that would get corrupted and made ugly and fear of attachment rendering the templar incapable of acting, instead of making sure they only did so when there was no other option, would take over. I can see that, even if I'm not sure it ever really was that way. But...what's happening now? There's nothing in this game to show it's anything other than a fearful, paranoid power trip and I can't imagine it being fun to be on that side.

But then I have trouble playing bad guys in RPGs even though I know a lot of people love to. Sounds like you're talking about people who actually think the templars have the objective moral high ground though which...makes absolutely no sense to me. BOO.