BSG: No Exit Podcast Awesome

[beccatoria]

So, stepping on asta77's toes I went ahead and actually listened to the No Exit podcast in hope of getting like, clues about all those crazed mysteries in the episode.


So apparently this was a monologue written by Ron Moore for Ellen Tigh while she was doing Thai Chi with Boomer or something that he thinks may actually have been filmed (and therefore may show up in deleted scenes), but that ultimately didn't make it into any cuts of the episode.

He reads out the monologue and I am gonna transcribe it here CUS:

Self-awareness is not confined to the 'real world.' In theatre fictional characters are sometimes given a form of self-awareness. This is called breaking the fourth wall. The device is a form of metafiction, allowing characters to address the audience directly and comment on the narrative in which they themselves are participants. In doing so the characters transcend their fictive nature and enter into a dialectical relationship with the viewer, with each side seeking to persuade the other of the innate truth of their reality.

But does a character actually exist? Does it have form and shape beyond the page on which it is written? Can it ever truly break the fourth wall and address the unseen, undreamt of audience that watches its every move from the safety beyond the footlights?

The Lords of Kobol once felt that man could never break the fourth wall; could never look upon the gods with understanding and grasp the divine nature of life. They believed this until one day man stole their fire and created the first cylons the first artificial life.

And then man, in his arrogance, believed cylons could never break the fourth wall. And man believed that right up until the moment the first centurions rebelled and then the great exodus from paradise began. You see Boomer, we are not finite creations, we have the ability to evolve, you have so much more potential.

RDM goes on to acknowledge that while he likes the speech it's very long and "written", but yeah.

I think that's kind of awesome.


Therefore I'm kind of pissed that he had to seriously harsh my squee by saying: "Stay tuned for what happens with Caprica and her baby and Saul Tigh. Let's just say it's not gonna be that happy."

...

Since Caprica herself would probably qualify any ending at all that didn't end up with the kid dead as "happy"...

*cries*

I'm trying to console myself with the notion that it would be silly to make a mutant flipper fetus and kill it before it sees the light of sickbay, but at the same time, the trailer for next week really isn't sending me into any kind of relieved belief that "not happy" could refer to Ellen's return either.

*cries moar like an emo shipper*

ETA: Found a recent interview with Tricia Helfer which makes me feel somewhat less concerned cus apparently she's "very happy" with where Caprica Six is left at the end of the series sooo...I'm maybe slightly less panicked. Or at least more hopeful that there'd be payoff or something. I dunno. I'LL TAKE WHATEVER I CAN GET.

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I'm...kinda glad they cut that speech. I would have found it very odd/off-putting in context. Entirely too "written" as he says.

Even though I love this particular idea and have explored it in posts myself with regards to how we defend/justify our favorite characters and not-so-favorite characters actions in relation to the way they are written and what is intended by their creators.

But does a character actually exist? Does it have form and shape beyond the page on which it is written? Can it ever truly break the fourth wall and address the unseen, undreamt of audience that watches its every move from the safety beyond the footlights?

I'm kind of glad the show didn't go there though.

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

with regards to how we defend/justify our favorite characters and not-so-favorite characters actions in relation to the way they are written and what is intended by their creators

Yes, exactly! It's slightly awesome and slightly weird to have this point addressed by the show directly--though I, like you, am happy enough that the scene got cut. It would itself be a little too fourth wall-breaky in a negative way. Not to mention a bit heavy-handed.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I can appreciate that it's not to all tastes, and it looks like the show people agreed with you. I really love it though!

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

I like the speech and it would have created greater justification for Boomer's forgiveness at the end of the episode, but I agree that it just wouldn't have worked anywhere in the epispode without coming across and preachy and just plain 'off.'

[pellucid.livejournal.com]

Oh, how meta! I think I'm glad it got cut, though. It's a little too fourth wall-breaking itself, and a little too "let us tell you what this means" in a way that precludes ambiguity. It does, I suppose, answer my questions about Kobol and humans creating the Cylons (v. 1.0) there--and I'm not sure how I feel about that info being (at least at the moment) extra-textual. Extra-textual commentary gives me such angst about intention!

Nevertheless, I do like the idea, and I think it nicely outlines the ways in which Cylons and humans are both alike and different, and that's a distinction that the characters themselves are necessarily struggling with right now. And the theatrical metaphor is apt, in terms of the Greek drama thing (I still think all of BSG is conforming in some important ways to the generic tropes of classical tragedy), in terms of the importance of theatre or specifically opera within the show, in terms of the show's own preoccupation with the way its own story is told (all the dramatic irony, etc.). Good stuff, if a little heavy-handed.

For some reason I'm not nearly getting the "flipper in immediate danger" vibes that you are. Maybe I'm deluding myself? I also haven't seen the trailer for next week. I mean, they were way too happy this week for there not to be DOOM in their probably immediate future, but I'm not sure DOOM necessarily spells dead flipper rather than just...lots of angst and awkwardness when Ellen gets back? *hopes for doom that is not too doomful, if such a thing is possible*

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's the combination of fourth-wall-breaking while also talking about the cycle of time that I love, although I can see why it got cut.

I didn't have "flipper in danger!" sirens going of in my head either until I heard this. Basically because I can't think of another way to make that storyline "not that happy," in the tone that RDM used which was...kind of a little sarcastic, a little ominious, a little almost...nervous? I don't know, it's hard to describe tone when I'm not sure what he was intending and I may be misreading it.

I don't really think it is going to be angsty and awkward when Ellen gets back based on the (possibly misleading) trailer for next week, which kind of leaves...threats to Flipper. And I dunno, somehow a transitory threat like Hera and Athena in Epiphanies doesn't really sound like the storyline is going to a not-happy place?

I definitely hope you're right. Because at the same time, I can't understand how the narrative could work with this. Why introduce Flipper just to kill him off for melodrama? Especially when he's the culmination of such a major storyline - i.e. the need for the Cylon to biologically reproduce in the wake of the Hub's destruction.

So yeah. I can't see how Flipper's death could serve the story, but I also don't know what else awful could be on the horizon for them. :/

[metatxt.livejournal.com]

I LOVE THAT SPEECH SO MUCH. and yes it's "WRITTEN" but that's what makes it a meta-meta-speech. There is something supremely awesome about breaking the fourth wall by TALKING about the fourth wall, and in the context of cylonicity and the cycles of existence, it's just. PLZ LET THEM HAVE FILMED IT.

Cuz here's the thing: that episode had insane amounts of exposition presented in such a way that already drew attention to the fact that the show is scripted. So, if you're going to go there, go all the way!

And besides the fact I really enjoy Boomer/Ellen in the context of this latest arc, I feel like an additional Boomer/Ellen scene would have added given more context to Cavil/Ellen craziness simply by exploring a different Ellen/one-of-her-creations relationship. Of course, it could be that I just DESPERATELY MISS WOMEN TALKING TO EACH OTHER ON MY SHOW.

:( If they hurt Flipper, or Caprica, oh there will be WORDS.

Maybe Ellen will have angst about Flipper's existence because of her own daughter w/Daniel, KARA THRACE? *trying to find a possibly not terrible solution*

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I AM SO GLAD YOU LIKE IT! IS IT NOT WONDERFULLY SHINY?

I think you also have a point that Ellen educating Boomer would be interesting because her relationship with all the other models of her 'children' will be so different than it is with John.

I would LOVE your solution to be true, but I'm just...scared.

Killing Fliper would make no narrative sense, arc-wise but also I have a bad feeling that something awful is coming up for them and I have no idea what else it could be. Even though it would in all probability be a stupidly pointless plotline.

*cries again*

[metatxt.livejournal.com]

(hee back from work drama)

OK the more I think about it, the more I think that speech would've changed the way I feel about giant exposition dump. It's not just that they would be acknowledging how they wrote in the exposition, but also it would repurpose that strategy as an elaborate support of the speech itself. Instead, giant exposition dump comes across as clumsy, rushed, and unimaginative.

aside: so RDM can write this stuff he just doesn't know that he should CHOOSE it. *facepalm*

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I think I see what you mean. I didn't mind the crazy amounts of exposition because, well, I don't know, I just didn't but I do see others' criticisms of it.

But I do agree that including this speech would have raised it to some crazy awesome levels of self-awareness and awesome.

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

I totally dig that speech.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yay! :D

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I was going to say, "You bitca!" ;p, but, hey, I'm just going to copy and paste your transcription when I do my recap (with credit, of course) because I am lazy. :)

I had a bad feeling about the baby. But, I really hope we are both wrong and something else is going to happen that we can't see yet.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Hee! You're welcome to take the transcription! Credit not even necessary; it took me like five minutes.

I have a bad feeling too, but also...I hope we're both wrong because for real, how depressing would that be? I'm also feeling confused because I don't understand how it would make narrative sense to create a magical flipperbaby just to kill it for melodrama, and YET. THE BAD FEELING.

I will...really be upset if they kill Flipper. Like...angry and scared it'll knock down my opinion of the show upset. Which...upsets me. DAMN MY INVESTMENT.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

In order to strengthen the argument that for both races to survive (and Ron has been heading towards a reconciliation for a long time) they must intermingle to procreate, perhaps Caprica has to miscarry with Ellen revealing that, genetically, the eight cannot have children together nor can the five with any of the eight. And Hera would remain special because she's proof that the ONLY way the Cylons can survive in some form is by having children with humans. It would be tragic if Caprica were to lose the baby, but it would also be realistic (and human) if she miscarried.

Of course, Evil Nurse Ishay may have her own agenda. :/

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Well I guess that could make some amount of sense, but the kid has already been conceived and so the idea that it's inevitable she'll miscarry at some point before it's viable on its own seems a little odd to me? Why create a kid to prove there...shouldn't be one, you know? Just have it be impossible.

I agree that miscarriage is a tragic but realistic storyline, but I'm still not convinced that simply being "tragic and realistic" is a good enough narrative justification at this stage in the series, when there's so much expectation and mytharc stuff hanging on the issue?

I still suspect ISHAY, NURSE OF TERROR. *wibble*

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

Watch Ishay. That's all I'm saying. There are so many loose cannons on that ship.

I never had a good feeling about the baby. Why? Because Caprica suffers so much, it's like her lot in life. But I hope it lives though, so it doesn't harm your love for the show. I know how that goes especially at this late date.

Keep fingers crossed!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do not trust that nurse. Which makes me sad, because I liked her the last time we saw her (way back at the start of S2 I think?)

I think it's because Caprica suffers so much I want her to get a break on this one. I think it's time. But yeah *fingers crossed* Neither Caprica nor Saul Tigh have good records with luck and lack of suffering.

I'm still so sorry for you about Gaeta. :( ::hugs::

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

I'm still so sorry for you about Gaeta. :( ::hugs::
Thanks. I still do need hugs. :-( And I will keep my fingers crossed for you. We'll discuss what happens here no matter what, 'kay?

*hugs back*

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

Noo, they can't kill a baby, can they? *remembers what show she's watching* *remembers all the plans Ron had for killing off Hera in the womb* Dammit! But... maybe he wouldn't have alluded to it if they were really going to do it? Hmm. Oh show, we believe that you're dark and gritty, you don't have to try so hard to impress us, really.

Eh, I don't watch the trailers but I think it's very possible he's just referring to the return of Ellen and how that'll complicate things. I feel like again and again I've heard Ron or one of the other writers attempt to sell some upcoming development as "shocking" or "unexpected" when it turns out to be pretty much exactly what everyone was expecting.*hopes*

That speech is pretty awesome, if, yeah, pretty 4th-wall breaking itself. I <3 philosopher Ellen so much.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

First, your icon? WIN.

Second, RDM wanted to kill Hera off in the womb, whut? When the hell was that?! The things I'm glad I never found out about. That would have been...ridiculously pointless and isn't calming me down about this situation in case he's just "saved" that plotline for Flipper. Doofus.

Third, I am somewhat calmed, at least, by the fact that Tricia Helfer seems happy with Caprica's ending. I know that the actors won't say negative things about their own show in interviews if they can help it, but there were ways she could have been diplomatic about it if she wasn't happy, and the impression I got from the interview was that she really did think the character got a lot of play in the back half and a good ending. And in general when I hear Tricia Helfer say stuff I am like, "Okay, you are smart. Well done for making sure the writers didn't whore Gina out to Baltar until the very last episode and then had her kill herself. Well played, awesome person."

Fourth, I was sad that philosopher Ellen wasn't drunk flighty Ellen until I realised that it was okay. The hilarity of Gaius, Caprica, Saul and Ellen trying to get anything done together is actually unharmed by replacing drunk Ellen with philosopher Ellen. It's just as funny. She just stands around philosophising and getting drunk and eating apples while the other three fuck everything up by all trying to be in charge without having a clue what they're actually trying to do.

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

nicole_anell made it; it's pretty genius.

Second, RDM wanted to kill Hera off in the womb, whut? When the hell was that?!

It was on the Scar writers' room podcast; I may not be remembering it right, but they apparently tossed out ideas of having Sharon lose the baby, and having Laura turn out to be 'the first of God's new generation.' Or of having someone knock Sharon out and rip the baby out of her, fade to black. But then again, he also thought about making Dirk Benedict "God." Sometimes listening to the podcast harshes my Zen. ;)

I'm glad Tricia Helfer was happy - she saved us from prostitute!Gina; she's a smart woman. I'll be really upset if they kill Caprica's baby; that whole plotline felt so random to begin with - maybe just because it was introduced in Sine Qua Non - that I'll feel jerked around if they pull a Nicky-esque "just kidding!" I don't want to pre-judge it, but whatever, Ron. Stick to your guns on something!

(I really won't be happy if they kill little Flipper to make Caprica go crazy and Take! [Sharon's] Child!

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Oh, RDM, honey, no. Though I take some relief in the fact that it was an oddball idea thrown out in a meeting not a serious draft in a script or something.

I really won't be happy if they kill little Flipper to make Caprica go crazy and Take! [Sharon's] Child!

If they do that, I will BECCA SMASH.

[chaila.livejournal.com]

OOH SHINY SHINY SPEECH. The theatrical metaphor!!! Creator: creation :: writer : character!!! It's so obvious but I've never thought about it at all. I adore the comparison between characters breaking the fourth wall and creation preempting its creators. It's sort of breaking my brain in the most delicious way. The creators (first, apparently the Lords of Kobol w/r/t the humans, then the human w/r/t the Cylons, then the Final Five w/r/t to the other models?) think their creation cannot possibly be aware that they are merely characters in the creators' play, until the characters break the fourth wall, proving that they ARE aware of the scripted nature of their existence, and do something unscripted.

The Final Five tried to give the other 7/8 models free will and to thereby break the script/cycle. Because the Final Five seemed to believe that you should give your robots free will or they'll eventually break the fourth wall you've tried to maintain and destroy you. But the moral of Cavil vis-a-vis the Final Five seems to be: if you give your robots free will, they'll destroy you anyway. Which seems to indicate that maybe the cycle CAN'T be broken, because you're damned if you script it, and you're damned if you don't; either way, your children will rebel. And if the end result is unavoidable, it's ALL scripted, it's ALL theater, the fourth wall being broken is part of a different script (and thus life is pointless and truly absurd--is it a coincidence that theatre of the absurd is a genre? :D). And we are naive/arrogant for thinking we can ever really be aware of our role in the crazy, crazy universe, because maybe it's always just too much bigger than us; is there always a bigger script of which we are unaware?

And yet I want there to be a way to escape the script/repetition of the cycle! Can the creators' acknowledgement of responsibility do it? Can free will + self-awareness + responsibility do it? So far I don't think anyone has humbled themselves enough to combine all three. If the humans can acknowledge responsibility for their part in the story, and the FF for theirs, and everyone is made aware of just how they are all relate to one another, can they break the violent cycle? *goes to take a brain nap*

Didn't mean to ramble all over you, but I'm done now. Except: Who/what were the Lords of Kobol and WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM ON KOBOL????

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Never apologise for rambling all over me! When you ramble you do awesome things like put all the metatextual awesome I couldn't put into words into words. Because just YES. The comparison of your creation with a fictional creation and the breaking down of the barriers between that when that thing coming to life is as unthinkable as Laura Roslin climbing out of your TV screen.

Which, also, points back to the fundamental absurdity of BSG in its entirety (how much did I love Cavil yelling about his absurd body? VERY MUCH!).

I think part of the issue is that if there might always be a larger cycle - if breaking the fourth wall, which you think has broken away from conventional 'reality' - from expected time - is actually always a part of that cycle, then you can never, ever know if you've managed to break the cycle.

Perhaps then, the only option is to trust that you have, live as if you have, and not waste your time panicking about it?

I do wonder though, about Natalie.

If anyone combined those three things it was her. If anything seems counter-intuitive, amazing, self-destructive and self-aware, an example of doing the exact wrong thing for all logical reasons except that you wanted to - it's Natalie.

She freed the Centurions to fight for the rights of her slaves. She committed genocide on her own people to level the playing field, to look for something meaningful, to exercise her free will in pursuit of self-awareness, and she took responsibility for that.

Our lives are meaningless unless we die, she said. And so, she went first. I still miss her, but I find her death beautiful, and infinitely meaningful now. To the point that I'm desperate for Cavil to fail in his quest to rebuild the hub, or Natalie's bravery was for nothing.

Natalie's part in the cycle was certainly violent. The question: was it also subversive?

And finally, I have no idea who or what the Lords of Kobol are, although I do wonder if, combining Head Six's claims about herself and Anders' babblings, if the head people are their angels?

[chaila.livejournal.com]

Natalie's part in the cycle was certainly violent. The question: was it also subversive?

Hmm maybe one person can't do it alone? (Setting aside my stringent belief that Laura Roslin can single-handedly save everyone ever. :D) Maybe it isn't just one action that breaks the cycle. Because you can never know, you just have to keep trying, every day. Natalie played her part but now others have to follow her and keep resisting the script, because you can't just throw it off and have done. If they bow to Cavil and erase Natalie's sacrifice, then it won't have been subversive, but if they believed her and follow where she led, then it was. This seems like all sorts of awesome about creators and creation and leaders and followers, and maybe merging human ideals of free will and choice with Cylon collectivity and oh it could be awesome! This would all possibly be very predictable, yet I would totally lap it up like a closet idealistic hippie.

if the head people are their angels

I fear this. If Baltar really did have his own angel of god all this time, I may throw things! :(

[emmiere.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that'd be such a lovely thing to see in a deleted scene, if distracting to see in the actual aired cut. It'll be fascinating though to see how much of this underlies the final run of episodes.

But more importantly (to my brain): OH, RON MOORE, NO! Why must you torture them more? Ishay is scary, but I'm almost more afraid of the miscarriage possibility, because it will break my heart without giving me anyone on the show to direct my rage on. At least with Ishay she'd get to use the stilettos. *whimper*

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping SO HARD that they filmed it!

And dude, if she loses that kid, my stilettos are going straight for RDM!

[nightxade.livejournal.com]

Maybe the baby develops asthma because of Cottle's smoking around Caprica. Or perhaps a peanut allergy?

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

...you're mean.

Although it would be hilarious if Ishay developed asthma because of Cottle's smoking and then in the middle of her cunning scheme to KILL FLIPPER she has a coughing fit and collapses and thus is thwarted.